EV/Plug-In/Hydrogen Fuel Cell - Cars

daedalus said:
Musings of the reality of electric car ownership.

Bought a used Nissan Leaf for the wife less than 2 weeks ago, and it has been a fairly big disappointment in terms of both cost and range.  Before buying, I had done just a bit of sniffing around online, saw the published range of 84 miles, and found reports of hardcore enthusiasts ("hypermilers") getting 100 miles per charge.  My wife has a short commute, and used car prices are in the gutter,  thus voila!--Leaf in the driveway.

I've been collecting data, and it looks like we get about 3 miles per kw-h, though Nissan marketing seems to think we should be getting 4.7, and the car itself is lying and saying we're averaging 4.2 (maybe Nissan hired some VW software guys?).  So with my electric rates, I figure I'll be paying about 10 cents a mile for electricity.  Much better than the 30 cents my big sedan costs, but not as good as I expected with the touted "115mpge" on the Nissan banners...which beg for clarification:  The 115mpge claim is PURELY a statement on energy efficiency and NOT related to energy cost.  It ignores the fact that gasoline costs 1/4th as much as my electricity for the same amount of energy.  (#thewholetruth)

Here's a big surprise, if you actually read the owner's manual:  For greatest battery longevity, you want to keep the battery between 20% and 80% charged.  Poof!  There goes 40% of your range.  Add in a little age-related battery degradation (even though the car says "full bars" capacity), and losses with using the AC, and we "should" have a useful range of at least 40 miles, depending on the kind of driving, which is truly laughable. 

The reality is we're getting about 32 miles between charges.

So that kind of sucks, and the real problem is with how amazingly weight-inefficient batteries are (or how amazingly energy-dense gasoline is).  The Tesla P85D is named for it's battery capacity, at 85kw-h.  A gallon of gasoline has 33kw-h of energy...yes, that's right:  A 1200 lbs Tesla battery holds less energy than 3 gallons of gasoline.

The saving grace of course is how efficient electric cars are.  Gas engines waste over 3/4 of the energy to heat.  But still....we're left with a Nissan Leaf with over 600lbs of battery and only 32 miles of range.  That's why, I think, depreciation is so big on this car; a lot of owners finding out how inconvenient/impossible it is having one of these as a daily driver, like a guy I know at work,  who now leaves his Leaf at home and rides the train in.  Good for us I guess, as we get to buy a good car on the cheap and still only need to charge it once a week.

On the "pros" list, the Leaf is quite impressive with the technology.  Nav system, aux port, bluetooth, Smartphone controls, online interface, backup camera, LED lights (f'ing bright!).  And the big plus:  Much less maintenance.  No more oil changes, plugs, wires, transmissions, fuel systems, leaky gaskets etc.  With 4 other cars on the road it'll be nice to have a set of wheels that won't need much lovin'.  This will take the sting out of that eventual $5k battery pack replacement. 

I still think this was a good investment for us, given that we had to buy a car.  It's just not as good a buy as I thought it would be.  Think twice before cutting the pipeline.

We recently bought our used leaf with just a few thousand miles for about $14k.

You can safely charge to 80% each day, then to 100% on days you need range. Also quick charge any time you want.

The leaf's battery is 24 kWh. 80% is 19.2.

At 3 miles per kWh, that's 57.6 miles on an 80% charge.
At 3.5 miles per kWh, that's 67.2 miles on an 80% charge.

My wife gets about 3.2 miles per kWh.
I typically get 4.1 miles per kWh.

It's all about letting the car "regen" by putting it in "B" mode (this is the default the Tesla uses) and always having Eco engaged.
 
lnc said:
daedalus said:
Think twice before cutting the pipeline.

Also an electric car just can't beat the sound of a thirsty fossil fuel sucking VTEC V6 roar behind your ears. :)
I do enjoy that.  Love the whine of the turbo just under it too.  :D  Sadly the car is PNO for now, and the turbo was removed for smog purposes.

Rice Vino said:
It's all about letting the car "regen" by putting it in "B" mode (this is the default the Tesla uses) and always having Eco engaged.
Yeah, we're doing both. 
Funny, my coworker googled it and found the battery to be 18kw-h, but I just googled and found 24.  Even more reason to be disappointed.  Recharging with ~15 miles of range left, up to 80%, means about 32 miles between charges. I only have 3 data points, but not sure why it would change much.  This is for short drives in town, which is where the car should excel. 

For your miles/kw-h are you going by what the car is telling you, or are you measuring what the charger actually consumes?
 
Each "bar" represents 2 kWh.

I use the car's built in display to show how many kWh have been consumed, as well.

With Level 2 charging at home and a ton of available quick chargers (Nissan, Kia dealers + Spectrum Marriott, MV mall, Block @ Orange), we rarely worry about range. Just need to plan a little in advance, but that's a small price to pay for inexpensive per-mile cost and gas hassle.

We're going to dump our SUV next and just rent one if we ever need to take long trips. With two electric cars (Leaf & plug in) we're visiting the gas station every 2-3 months.

 
Until the battery life increases significantly, the most "green" car that I will own/buy is a plug-in that has some sort of gas tank. 
 
USCTrojanCPA said:
Until the battery life increases significantly, the most "green" car that I will own/buy is a plug-in that has some sort of gas tank. 
I think you'll keep your gas tank.  We will see better battery tech in the future, but the batteries are only part of the story.  You need to be able to charge them too.  IMO for electric cars to be viable for the masses, either we'll need a charger for a large % of all parked cars at work (i.e., commuters), or the cars will need to be able to be charged at home.  Getting better range will involve changes to infrastructure and utilities and will be very expensive.  At home, for example, the existing wiring in most homes could maybe provide 6.6kw, assuming you have a usable 220v circuit with 10-ga wire that you can dedicate to a car charger.  So with a hypothetical "get-to-vegas" 150 kw-h battery, and assuming no losses (far from reality), it will take 23 hours to charge.  Most public charging stations currently have the same limits.  A lot of the grid will need to be revamped to support wide use of more cars and faster chargers.  Years from now we'll know we have turned the corner when we start using more power at night than in the day.


Rice Vino said:
I use the car's built in display to show how many kWh have been consumed, as well.
Try measuring it at the wall.  I'm seeing about a 45% difference between the car's miles/kw-h report and my own measurements. 
Speaking of which, my Leaf continues to suck on range.  I would not mind it quite so much if the range gauge wasn't so annoyingly, terribly optimistic in estimating distance to empty...please don't tell me I can go 64 miles if I can really only drive 40!  The numbers are all over the map.  I lose 5 miles driving the first mile.  And on Friday I met some friends at a place about a mile from my house.  I left home with 8 miles of range left.  Not sure what it said when I parked, but when I got to my car to head home, I had 0 miles left.  Lol.  Lucky for me the car's optimism is layered over with at least a bit of conservatism.

This is not the only car you want to have in your garage when some sort of emergency hits.
 
daedalus said:
Try measuring it at the wall.  I'm seeing about a 45% difference between the car's miles/kw-h report and my own measurements.

On 240v, there's typically 20% inefficiency in what is discharged at the wall vs. what makes it into the battery. 120v is even worse.

On range, the global published average for Leaf is consistently 3.9-4.1 miles per kWh. I'm seeing that on the EV connect app under Eco Rankings.
 
Picked this up a few weeks ago, 85D model. Loving it so far!

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"Mommy, I think someone stole the engine in this car"
 
These cars are moving closer and closer to I-Robot cars...
 

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Tesla will also have a big rig and pickup truck out by the time everyone catches up.

Or they'll be bankrupt (according to morekaos).
 
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