Tesla
- Thread starter ps99472
- Start date
NEW -> Contingent Buyer Assistance Program
It's much worse than you think....
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324659404578499460139237952.html
The Other Government Motors
Tesla by the numbers: How taxpayers made an electric car company.
Rarely noted is how much this profit is a function of government subsidy and coercion. So let's take apart Tesla by the numbers, if only to give our reader-taxpayers a better sense of what they've paid to make Tesla's owners rich.
The decade-old Tesla debuted its first product, the Roadster, in 2006. With a base price of $109,000, it was discontinued before it hit 2,500 sales. Tesla introduced its Model S a year ago and had sold an estimated 9,650 at a bargain $70,000 through April. By contrast, Ford sold 168,843 F-series pickup trucks in the first quarter alone.
Tesla wouldn't have sold even that many cars without the extraordinary help of government. In 2009 the company received a $465 million Obama loan guarantee, supplemented last year by a $10 million grant from the California Energy Commission.
Tesla's biggest windfall has been the cash payments it extracts from rival car makers (and their customers), via its sale of zero-emission credits. A number of states including California require that traditional car makers reach certain production quotas of zero-emission vehicles?or to purchase credits if they cannot. Tesla is a main supplier.
But...
Tesla's investors claim this taxpayer support is worth it if it creates a new electric-car company, and for them it is. But such a success must still be measured against other taxpayer losses and misallocated capital.
And even if Tesla's cars do sell, the policy question is why billionaires in California couldn't have financed the business themselves. Why should middle-class taxpayers whose incomes are falling still pay to subsidize the purchase of cars that only the affluent can afford, and then partly as a gesture of their superior environmental virtue? When does the rest of America get its return on Tesla's profits?
Forget the future NSX, get the new Porsche 918.http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-reviews/first-drives/2015-porsche-918-spyder-65-1-roa0813
Not much, if at all...
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/03/11/Average-Electric-Car-Produces-More-Carbon-Than-Gas-Powered-Car
But research by Bjorn Lomborg of the Copenhagen Consensus Center finds that a typical electric car driven 50,000 miles over its lifetime emits more carbon-dioxide than a similar-size gas-powered car driven the same distance.
The reason: manufacturing electric cars, which involves mining for lithium, produces over twice the amount of carbon-dioxide emissions (30,000 pounds for an electric car versus 14,000 for a conventional vehicle) as gas-powered cars.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
That Model X does look nice.... but those Falcon Wings won't work in a garage with storage racks. 
This is something the Mrs. would really like but at probably a $75k price point, not a smart purchase... do they lease Teslas?
And yes... I've seen quite a few in Irvine, one of the parents at our school drives one.
This is something the Mrs. would really like but at probably a $75k price point, not a smart purchase... do they lease Teslas?
And yes... I've seen quite a few in Irvine, one of the parents at our school drives one.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
Considering Fisker, I can see how you would say that... but they seem to be doing the right things and their cars look very nice.morekaos said:
homer_simpson
Well-known member
My cousin has one and she really loves it. They have a few supercharged stations already opened to help charge them. The torque is amazing and its realllllly quiet.
My wife is considering the Model S as she likes the LX more than the X5 now but it's pretty pricey. Now if only I installed Solar Power panels on my roof... :'(
My wife is considering the Model S as she likes the LX more than the X5 now but it's pretty pricey. Now if only I installed Solar Power panels on my roof... :'(
morekaos
Well-known member
irvinehomeowner said:
It's much worse than you think....
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324659404578499460139237952.html
The Other Government Motors
Tesla by the numbers: How taxpayers made an electric car company.
Rarely noted is how much this profit is a function of government subsidy and coercion. So let's take apart Tesla by the numbers, if only to give our reader-taxpayers a better sense of what they've paid to make Tesla's owners rich.
The decade-old Tesla debuted its first product, the Roadster, in 2006. With a base price of $109,000, it was discontinued before it hit 2,500 sales. Tesla introduced its Model S a year ago and had sold an estimated 9,650 at a bargain $70,000 through April. By contrast, Ford sold 168,843 F-series pickup trucks in the first quarter alone.
Tesla wouldn't have sold even that many cars without the extraordinary help of government. In 2009 the company received a $465 million Obama loan guarantee, supplemented last year by a $10 million grant from the California Energy Commission.
Tesla's biggest windfall has been the cash payments it extracts from rival car makers (and their customers), via its sale of zero-emission credits. A number of states including California require that traditional car makers reach certain production quotas of zero-emission vehicles?or to purchase credits if they cannot. Tesla is a main supplier.
jayl23
New member
Saw their roadster a while back, nice looking car, eerily quiet. All you hear are a couple of clicks and off it goes.
Yea, it's good to have the gov't support if you're the company. Eventually market realities will catch up to it, tricky part is always the timing. Until then, better take some profits if you own their stock.
Of course, if somebody comes up with an arc reactor or Mr. Fusion, then perhaps Tesla will stick around for a while.
Yea, it's good to have the gov't support if you're the company. Eventually market realities will catch up to it, tricky part is always the timing. Until then, better take some profits if you own their stock.
Of course, if somebody comes up with an arc reactor or Mr. Fusion, then perhaps Tesla will stick around for a while.
Elon is a master at getting into the government's good graces. Do not underestimate his ability to propel whatever he gets behind. I did, and thus far it has cost me 7 figures in stock option value. Might Tesla collapse? Sure, but not until after he exits, and I don't believe he will exit until he thinks he has accomplished his goals. I do think he truly believes Tesla, like Space-X, is a positive thing for mankind. He is looking to change the world for the better, while getting rich doing so.
Someone brought up a point to me about these cars, they have a big battery that is draining lots of energy very quickly. Imagine the electromagnetic energy that it radiates from that. Now think about where the battery is in relations to your anatomy. For guys, especially those who don't have children, but would like to have children in the future, think about this carefully....
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
qwerter is immune.gaogi said:
morekaos
Well-known member
Irvinehomeowner Prime said:
But...
Tesla's investors claim this taxpayer support is worth it if it creates a new electric-car company, and for them it is. But such a success must still be measured against other taxpayer losses and misallocated capital.
And even if Tesla's cars do sell, the policy question is why billionaires in California couldn't have financed the business themselves. Why should middle-class taxpayers whose incomes are falling still pay to subsidize the purchase of cars that only the affluent can afford, and then partly as a gesture of their superior environmental virtue? When does the rest of America get its return on Tesla's profits?
jayl23
New member
The supporters would say the payoff is a cleaner earth and averted global warming catastrophe which would wipe out all humanity. Their utopian vision is one where everyone drives a solar powered vehicle and any all forms of energy would be from 'green and clean' sources (windmills, biodiesel, solar). When you have such a goal, concerns such as misallocated capital and taxpayer losses are just "investments in our future". Like any new technology, it's always the rich who are the early adopters.
When you have 'saving the earth' as the end, it's easy to see they will justify any means in order to achieve it.
When you have 'saving the earth' as the end, it's easy to see they will justify any means in order to achieve it.
morekaos
Well-known member
I entirely agree. Gm and Chrysler should have been allowed to go through regular old bk. ford never needs any help and gm would be a better company today if they were allowed to shed and restructure their liabilities. As for Chrysler the government should have never stepped in to save a private hedge funds butt (Cerberus prt). They too would have been better off and not in the hands of fiat. Government intervention in both the auto ind. and housing has done nothing but waste taxpayers (our) money
sgip
Well-known member
Best place to see what TARP really has yielded is here:
http://www.propublica.org/ion/bailout
With a complete run down here:
http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list
When banks say "we've paid back our TARP and then some" that's not the whole story. Most of the loans servicers haven't paid back squat. The automakers should have never have been bailed out, but too many special interest groups blocked any sense of reason back then
My subsidised .02c
http://www.propublica.org/ion/bailout
With a complete run down here:
http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list
When banks say "we've paid back our TARP and then some" that's not the whole story. Most of the loans servicers haven't paid back squat. The automakers should have never have been bailed out, but too many special interest groups blocked any sense of reason back then
My subsidised .02c
I like the gullwing doors. Wish it was on the fronts too.
At what price point does an EV make financial sense for folks here? Anyone else run the numbers? How much do you commute in a year with a single vehicle? My wife and I don't drive much. We own gas guzzlers yet still burn only about 400 gallons of gas in a year...maybe $1700 in gasoline. An EV might cost $3-400 to charge for the same distance. We would save $1350 per year, $6750 in 5 years. Not worth it, plus I would really miss my upper end power band. EVs do have nice torque off the line though...maybe we'll just save up for the 2015 NSX and get the best of both worlds.
At what price point does an EV make financial sense for folks here? Anyone else run the numbers? How much do you commute in a year with a single vehicle? My wife and I don't drive much. We own gas guzzlers yet still burn only about 400 gallons of gas in a year...maybe $1700 in gasoline. An EV might cost $3-400 to charge for the same distance. We would save $1350 per year, $6750 in 5 years. Not worth it, plus I would really miss my upper end power band. EVs do have nice torque off the line though...maybe we'll just save up for the 2015 NSX and get the best of both worlds.
iacrenter
Well-known member
daedalus said:...maybe we'll just save up for the 2015 NSX and get the best of both worlds.
Forget the future NSX, get the new Porsche 918.http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-reviews/first-drives/2015-porsche-918-spyder-65-1-roa0813
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
Seeing how much EVs and hybrids cost, I don't think the idea is that the buyer saves money... it's more about the buyer is reducing their usage of resources (although how much resources it takes to build these vehicles isn't really considered in that equation).
morekaos
Well-known member
irvinehomeowner said:
Not much, if at all...
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/03/11/Average-Electric-Car-Produces-More-Carbon-Than-Gas-Powered-Car
But research by Bjorn Lomborg of the Copenhagen Consensus Center finds that a typical electric car driven 50,000 miles over its lifetime emits more carbon-dioxide than a similar-size gas-powered car driven the same distance.
The reason: manufacturing electric cars, which involves mining for lithium, produces over twice the amount of carbon-dioxide emissions (30,000 pounds for an electric car versus 14,000 for a conventional vehicle) as gas-powered cars.