Immigration Ban

Speaking of immigrants from the philippines, when I first got out of college I had a crappy no-skilled office job.  Most of my co-workers in my department were from the Philippines. It turns out the majority got a visa because they were nurses.  I could never understand why a nurse would be doing such mind numbing office work instead of working in an industry where there is a shortage of labor.
 
Loco_local said:
My parents applied properly, waited in line with everyone else. Took them 10 years to get citizenship. They got theirs the legal way,
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The problem is that there is no legal way for Syrian refugees. The administration has said absoluely NO, under no circumstances, no exceptions.
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Do we have an obligation to take Syrian refugees?  Syria has a government that hates us fighting terrorists that we armed and also fighting the other terrorists that we helped create.

It's a logical fallacy, but many of us project.  If I lived in that country, I would hate the US.  I would probably want revenge against the US.  Obviously, you can't apply that to everyone, but common sense tells us that there is an additional risk to taking in people from those countries.

Loco_local said:
Mexicans don't have it much better. They can wait in line, but they will be 80 years old before they allowed to immigrate legally without a special skill.
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It's quite unfortunate that Mexicans are incapable of learning skills.  Perhaps they need a civil war so they can get refugee status and bypass the learning of skills. 

 
Loco_local said:
Speaking of immigrants from the philippines, when I first got out of college I had a crappy no-skilled office job.  Most of my co-workers in my department were from the Philippines. It turns out the majority got a visa because they were nurses.  I could never understand why a nurse would be doing such mind numbing office work instead of working in an industry where there is a shortage of labor.
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Maybe they had to study and take some classes to get licensed here? Maybe those things cost money? Dunno, just guessing here.
 
morekaos said:
peppy said:
But  the administration is cool if they are Christian. How do you prove that if these countries cannot provide any credible vetting information? Eat some bacon at the port of entry and you are in?
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That's kind of what they do...
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Seems like the USA should strive to be better than a terrorist.
 
spootieho said:
It's a logical fallacy, but many of us project.  If I lived in that country, I would hate the US.  I would probably want revenge against the US.  Obviously, you can't apply that to everyone, but common sense tells us that there is an additional risk to taking in people from those countries.
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Do you think that was true of the Vietnamese refugees during the  Vietnam war or the German refugees after the WW2?
 
spootieho said:
tim said:
WE ALREADY VET the people coming from these 7 countries and from ALL countries. And those procedures were revised by a law that was passed by the Repub Congress and signed by the Dem President in December 2015. What more do you think needs to be done? How will you know when enough has been done?
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I think this is where we can actually respectfully disagree.  I think your question "What more do you think needs to be done?" is actually pretty good mind opening question.  I think a devils advocate might ask "How can you be so certain that we are doing enough?  Do you know what we are doing?".

Here's where I think people stand:
  -  Some are convinced that our vetting does not need improvement.
  -  Some admit ignorance on the matter, but feel we already do as much as reasonably possible.
  -  Some admit ignorance on the matter, but feel we should investigate to see if we can make any improvements and apply them if reasonable.
  -  Some are convinced that we don't do enough.

IMO, we are all ignorant on the matter.  Some of us want more peace of mind before we allow strangers from a dangerous part of town into our house.
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But ignorance affects people's lives. Real people. Imagine your best friend. Really stop and think about them. Now, imagine that they are here on a visa. They got the visa a year ago. They came here to go to college. They could have gone somewhere else. When they came here, they had no worries about getting to go home at Christmas to see their family. Now they are worried that they cannot get back into the country if they ever leave. They are worried they won't be able to finish college here and should have made a different choice. Their significant other lives here. You, their best friend, lives here. And they are feeling very unwanted by our country. Anytime some white person looks at them funny, they don't know if they have food on their chin or if that person hates immigrants and is about to kick the shit out of them.

Maybe you personally don't hate immigrants. But all this vague blaming immigrants stirs up those who do. It makes them think that they are okay feeling that way. It makes them bolder with their hate.

There is nothing wrong with investigating if we should update the immigration/refugee processes. But I hear a lot of people that don't really want the ban to end. They just want to stop others from coming in. You will never be 100% safe. Get over it. Your chances of being killed by a Muslim terrorist are almost 0. How many Americans have been killed by Muslim terrorists, including 9/11? In 2015, American toddlers killed 21 Americans and Muslim terrorists killed 20 Americans. ( And, yes, I know toddlers are not immigrants.) My point is that all this worry about Muslim terrorist attacks in the USA is unjustified.

Your ignorance and lack of effort to change such is not a good reason to make America become a selfish, shitty country. I will fight hard to not let that happen. Many, many others will fight, too. I will not let ignorance and fear ruin this country that I love. We are an example to the rest of the world. Japan is not. The United States of America is. We help out and we've been helped out. Without France's help, we would not even be a country. We didn't abandon Europe in WW2. We are not going to start abandoning people now.

Refugees do not have a right to come here. But we have a moral obligation to not just stand by and watch people get destroyed. No America that I know would do so. We sure as hell will not shut our doors and eyes and let others take the risk that we are not willing to. We sure better not shut our doors to people fleeing countries that we helped break.

If you are ignorant, then educate yourself.https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/29/us/refugee-vetting-process.htmlhttps://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/immigrate/immigrant-process.htmlhttps://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works
 
Loco_local said:
Speaking of immigrants from the philippines, when I first got out of college I had a crappy no-skilled office job.  Most of my co-workers in my department were from the Philippines. It turns out the majority got a visa because they were nurses.  I could never understand why a nurse would be doing such mind numbing office work instead of working in an industry where there is a shortage of labor.
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There have been times when there was NOT a nursing shortage but an oversupply. The early/mid 80's was one such time. Even nurses educated at home who passed the board had to work in nursing homes when they got out of school.

In addition to that the Filipino nurses had a problem passing the licensing exam and had to work as nurse's aids which was basically a minimum wage job. The exam has been changed since the time I took it. Used to be you had to pass EVERY section and if you missed even one section by a small amount, having aced the entire rest of the exam meant you didn't pass. The psych portion was what they had the most trouble with. And the entire test was ENGLISH only and timed. Can't remember exactly but I think the test was only offered a couple times a year, so don't pass, don't work as a licensed nurse for another 6 months and try again.

I had lots of Filipino friends who worked as LVNs and had trouble passing the RN boards. I imagine there were plenty of others who had trouble becoming an LVN..... it was mostly an issue with not being able to finish the timed test in English.

 
HomeOwner Irvine said:
Do you think that was true of the Vietnamese refugees during the  Vietnam war or the German refugees after the WW2?
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Sure, there was more risk bringing them in than not, but the risk was so much smaller in those situations.  The situation was a bit different with Vietnam.  We were clearly on a side and at war with the other side. 

With Syria, it's a bit of a mess.  We are on the rebel's side that we armed.  We aren't at war with Syria, but we are fighting against Syria.  By arming the rebels without formally going to war with their government, we are creating terrorists and assisting them fight their government. Then there's Hezbollah forces, Isis forces, other jihadi forces.  It's hard to keep track.https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...de182507eac_story.html?utm_term=.d253001b67c2

About half of my Vietnamese refugee friends who were kids at the time are for the ban and half against the ban.  When it comes to refugees I know who were teens or adults in Vietnam, pretty much all of them are for the ban.  They also see the risk being different, although they have their biases.
 
tim said:
But ignorance affects people's lives. Real people. Imagine your best friend. Really stop and think about them. Now, imagine that they are here on a visa. They got the visa a year ago. They came here to go to college. They could have gone somewhere else. When they came here, they had no worries about getting to go home at Christmas to see their family. Now they are worried that they cannot get back into the country if they ever leave. They are worried they won't be able to finish college here and should have made a different choice. Their significant other lives here. You, their best friend, lives here. And they are feeling very unwanted by our country.
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You know that we've already had this discussion, yet you bring it up like we haven't.  Is the conversation going to keep going in a circle?  I agree that the ban has problems and it shouldn't have affected people here on a visa.

I've seen immigration issues affect people very close to me.

I had a friend visit her family in Iran about 6 years ago.  When she was there, something happened and she couldn't come back for around 1 full year.  Her 4 year old daughter was still here, so she got separated from her daughter.  It sucks, but I felt that she took a big risk when she went to Iran that this might happen.  Anyways, I don't want to see that stuff happen. 

I had a friend/business partner who's wife went to Korea on vacation.  When she came back, the agent noticed a mistake on her visa.  They sent her back to Korea.  It took 4 years for her to come back.  It destroyed my business.  I don't want to see that happen. 

Hopefully the new EO will make it very clear that none of these people who are on visa programs or here legally get affected.

tim said:
Anytime some white person looks at them funny, they don't know if they have food on their chin or if that person hates immigrants and is about to kick the shit out of them.
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Because only white people would do something like that.  Kinda hypocritical.  If you are going to go there, then why not go there in both scenarios?  Is it unreasonable to understand people being afraid of people from a violent region that hates the US and follows a violent religion.  Yes, that religion may not be so violent in other countries, but the religion is pretty violent in that region.  That's what the refugees are running away from.

tim said:
Maybe you personally don't hate immigrants. But all this vague blaming immigrants stirs up those who do. It makes them think that they are okay feeling that way. It makes them bolder with their hate.
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Perhaps, if the country was better off and not so stressed out, people might have a better outlook.  Right now they see the government trying to squeeze more taxes out of them as jobs are being taken and more welfare is being handed out.  The government has been boasting how great the economy is, yet it's getting harder and harder for people to afford things.  They see companies like Disney, Socal Edison, and even state Universities have their employees train foreign replacements before they are laid off.  People tend to clump all those things together.  Maybe we should pause and try to fix things and give our people peace of mind before we worry about others.  Maybe. 

tim said:
Your ignorance and lack of effort to change such is not a good reason to make America become a selfish, shitty country.  I will fight hard to not let that happen. Many, many others will fight, too. I will not let ignorance and fear ruin this country that I love.
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A needy person asks you for money.  You look in your wallet and have $25.  You give him $5.  How generous.  He then asks for the $20.  You say "no".  How can you be so selfish and shitty that you don't give that needy person the money?

That doesn't make us shitty.  It makes you shitty for thinking that we are a shitty country because you didn't get your way.  It makes you a shitty person for not trying to be objective and understand your neighbors.  Look, you may very well be right, but you need to understand how your people feel.  Why do they think a certain way?  Are they assholes because they are ignorant?  Do you throw out their votes/opinions because you disagree with them? 
 
Loco_local said:
Speaking of immigrants from the philippines, when I first got out of college I had a crappy no-skilled office job.  Most of my co-workers in my department were from the Philippines. It turns out the majority got a visa because they were nurses.  I could never understand why a nurse would be doing such mind numbing office work instead of working in an industry where there is a shortage of labor.
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This still exists now with a high demand for nurses.

The problem with any foreign licensed medical professionals is that they have to get re-licensed here which is the hurdle for many.

Unlike the tech field that doesn't require any hard certification other than a degree (many of them have Masters) and knowledge of the technology platform... which is why they are usually working here in the field they have expertise in (and the backlog is "huge").
 
spootieho said:
HomeOwner Irvine said:
Do you think that was true of the Vietnamese refugees during the  Vietnam war or the German refugees after the WW2?
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Sure, there was more risk bringing them in than not, but the risk was so much smaller in those situations.  The situation was a bit different with Vietnam.  We were clearly on a side and at war with the other side. 
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This is hindsight 20/20. During times of war people were fearful and not trusting. During WW2 we interned Japanese Americans fearing that they were supplying information to the enemy. Fear can drive people to make irrational decisions. I think most people that disagree with the ban don't want laws driven by fear. No one is denying that we should have stricter vetting (whatever that means), but denying entry completely is not the right solution.

spootieho said:
With Syria, it's a bit of a mess.  We are on the rebel's side that we armed.  We aren't at war with Syria, but we are fighting against Syria.  By arming the rebels without formally going to war with their government, we are creating terrorists and assisting them fight their government. Then there's Hezbollah forces, Isis forces, other jihadi forces.  It's hard to keep track.https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...de182507eac_story.html?utm_term=.d253001b67c2
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Completely agree, Syria is a mess and so are most of the other countries on the list and many countries not on the list.

[sarcasm]
If we want to prevent external terrorists coming in we should have a complete ban rather than a selective ban.

Now to get internal terrorists (people already here) it's good that the NSA is listening to every conversation so we can weed out these bad guys. We should have direct access to Google, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon and servers of any company in the US so as to identify the attacks and prevent crimes.
[/sarcasm]
 
Gotta love our Leader. Who needs to follow the teachings of Jesus when we have someone almost just as good right here on earth preaching the gospel.

Donald Trump refers to incident 'last night' in Sweden that didn't happen and blames it on migrants

The President left the Swedish press baffled after name-dropping the country along with others that have experienced terror attacks
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http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/donald-trump-refers-incident-sweden-9848299

Look at all of the foreigners taking over Sweeden

LOGGA IN
NYHETER SPORT N?JE TV KULTUR LEDARE SENASTE NYTT PLUS MER OM

DONALD TRUMP ? USA:S NYE PRESIDENT
In English: This happened in Sweden Friday night, Mr President

NYHETERig?r  17:00
U.S. president Donald Trump gave a speech in Melbourne, Florida, Saturday evening.
While speaking about keeping America safe he mentioned the major terrorist attacks in Nice, Paris and Brussels ? and in the same sentence he pointed out an unspecified event in Sweden Friday evening.
?You look at what happened last night in Sweden?, he said.
Mr President, here is what happened in Sweden Friday night:


1/6
3:24 PM (local time): A man set himself on fire at Sergels torg, a plaza in central Stockholm. He was taken to the hospital with severe burns. There is so far no information on his motives but the intelligence service is not part of the investigation.
6:42 PM: The famous singer Owe Th?rnqvist had some technical problems during rehearsal for the singing competition ?Melodifestivalen?. (However, the 87 year old singer still managed to secure the victory the very next day.)
8:23 PM: A man died in hospital, after an accident in the workplace earlier that day in the city of Bor?s.
8:46 PM: Due to harsh weather in the northern parts of Sweden the road E10 was closed between Katterj?kk and Riksgr?nsen. Due to strong winds and snow in the region the Met office also issued an avalanche warning.
12:17 AM: Police officers initiated a chase for a fleeing Peugeot through central parts of the Swedish capital of Stockholm. The pursuit ended in police officers ramming the suspect at Engelbrektsgatan. The driver is now accused of driving under the influence, traffic violation and car theft.
IN LIGHTER NEWS:
11:23 AM: Ok, let?s not be fake news, this story took place in the autumn, but was reported Friday before lunch and we thought you would like it. A wooden moose got the attention of a lovesick moose bull. It all happened in 79 year old Ove Lindqvist?s garden in Byske outside Skellefte?, northern Sweden. ?I thought it was going to start a fight, instead it humped the wooden moose thrice?, he said.
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http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a...-happened-in-sweden-friday-night-mr-president


 
SoCal said:
Mass immigration is wonderful. Only ignorant racists would oppose it.
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Just out of curiosity, why are you concerned about riots in a Paris suburb? Are you equally bothered by the demonstrations in the US ghettos after a police shooting? Since you will probably never step foot in either place, why do you care what the Daily Mirror has to say?
 
Loco_local said:
Just out of curiosity, why are you concerned about riots in a Paris suburb?
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It's quite disturbing.  Also, many people don't want to see that sort of thing spread.  Do you show no concern?

Loco_local said:
Are you equally bothered by the demonstrations in the US ghettos after a police shooting?
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Not sure the level of outrage, but it's probably comparable. 

I'm also outraged at the news for fueling those demonstrations with fake news (based on Don Lemon's description above).

Loco_local said:
Since you will probably never step foot in either place, why do you care what the Daily Mirror has to say?
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This is an ignorant jerk type of question to ask. 
 
This is an ignorant jerk type of question to ask.
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Perhaps, but I noticed she used to post all kinds of stories from there like it was her only source of international news. That was before she got her passport though.
 
When you're comparing African immigration to France with immigration to the US, it's like comparing apples and orange. I don't think they are able to build rafts that can sail across the Atlantic.
 
This is how Trump won the election . People forwarding junk information which is badly sourced and biased.  WSJ / NYT may not have glamorous headlines that you want but at least they source their info properly and publish retractions when they are wrong . 

In context of the "Swedish Terror Attack" that our doofus-in-chief cited at his rally in Florida

http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/nyhete...ed-in-fox-news-segment-filmmaker-is-a-madman/

Swedish police featured in Fox News segment: Filmmaker is a madman
Uppdaterad 14:51 Publicerad 13:16

Foto: Magnus Hallgren

Trump?s comments about Sweden during his rally in Melbourne, Florida, spawned headlines in newspapers all around the world. The American president later clarified on Twitter, saying that he was referring to a segment on Fox News about a film by filmmaker Ami Horowitz. But the policemen who were portrayed in the segment say that they were misrepresented by Horowitz. ?He is a madman?.

?We?ve got to keep our country safe. You look at what?s happening in Germany. You look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden, who would believe this? Sweden. They took in large numbers. They're having problems like they never thought possible.?

Trumps comments about Sweden during his rally in Melbourne, Florida, raised many questions, especially among Swedes who were quick to point out that nothing terror-related had happened in the country. The president later took to Twitter to clarify his statements, saying that he was referring to a segment on ?Tucker Carlson Tonight? on Fox News. The segment featured the xenophobic filmmaker Ami Horowitz, maker of an alarmistic movie about Sweden. The movie, titled ?Stockholm Syndrome?, blames immigration as a direct cause of violence and rioting.

Two Swedish police officers were interviewed in the film. Anders G?ranzon and Jacob Ekstr?m answered questions about how weapons are becoming more accessible. Horowitz also asked the officers about how crime has spread through cities. But the police officers now say that their answers were taken out of context, and are very critical of how their comments were portrayed on Fox News ?Tucker Carlson Tonight?. ?I don?t understand why we are a part of the segment. The interview was about something completely different to what Fox News and Horowitz were talking about?, says Anders G?ranzon.

Why were you interviewed?

?It was supposed to be about crime in high risk areas. Areas with high crime rates. There wasn?t any focus on migration or immigration?.

How did you react to the news segment?

?We don?t stand behind it. It shocked us. He has edited the answers. We were answering completely different questions in the interview. This is bad journalism.?

Anders G?ranzon continues: ?It feels like hell. The real questions should be shown along with our answers. We don?t own the rights to the film, but the end result is that we don?t want to talk to journalists after this. We can?t trust each other.?

Have you done anything to stop the news segment?

?We just saw it. What can we do? One thing is talking to you. The excerpt they showed doesn?t say anything, we answered a different question. We don?t stand behind what he says. He is a madman.?

DN has reached out to Ami Horowitz for comment.
 
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