I THINK THE MARKETS HAVE BOTTOMED!!!

Calling the bottom, although it is inaccurate, is certainly more uplifting than reality:



<a href="http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/9-reasons-the-economy-wont-recover-soon.aspx">9 reasons the economy won't recover soon</a>



Recent unemployment numbers have undermined confidence that we might be nearing the bottom of the recession. The appropriate metaphor is not the green shoots of new growth. It's better to view the total of jobless people as a prudent navigator perceives an iceberg.



What we see on the surface is disconcerting enough. The Bureau of Labor Statistics estimate of 467,000 jobs lost in June increases to 7.2 million the number of unemployed since the start of the recession.



The cumulative job losses over the past six months have been greater than for any other half-year period since World War II, including demobilization. What's more, the job losses are now equal to the net job gains over the previous nine years, making this the only recession since the Great Depression to wipe out all employment growth from the previous business cycle.



That's bad enough. But here are nine reasons we are in even more trouble than the 9.5% unemployment rate indicates:



1. June's total included 185,000 people assumed to be at work but many of whom probably were not. The government could not identify them; it made an assumption about trends.



But many of these mythical jobs are in industries such as finance that have absolutely no job creation. As official numbers are adjusted over the next several months, some of the 185,000 will likely be added to the unemployment totals.



2. More companies are asking employees to take unpaid leave. These people don't count on the unemployment rolls.



3. At least 1.4 million people weren't counted among the unemployed, even though they wanted work or were available in the past 12 months. Why? Because they hadn't searched for work in the four weeks preceding the survey. The assumption is that they had found work or don't want it, but there are other explanations: school attendance, family responsibilities, sheer exhaustion.



4. The number of workers taking part-time jobs because of the slack economy, a kind of stealth underemployment, has doubled in this recession to about 9 million, or 5.8% of the work force. Add those whose hours have been cut and the total of unemployed and underemployed rises to 16.5%, putting the number of involuntarily idle workers in the range of an overwhelming 25 million.



5. The inside numbers are just as bad. The average workweek for production and nonsupervisory private-sector employees, around 80% of the work force, dropped to 33 hours. That's 48 minutes a week less than before the recession began, the lowest level of activity since the government began tracking such data 45 years ago.



Full-time workers are being downgraded to part-time as businesses slash labor costs to remain above water. Factories operate at only 65% of capacity. If American workers were still putting in those extra 48 minutes a week, 3.3 million fewer employees could perform the same aggregate amount of work. With a longer workweek, the unemployment rate would reach 11.7%, not the official 9.5% (which in turn dramatically exceeds the 8% rate projected by the Obama administration).



6. The average length of official unemployment increased to 24.5 weeks. This is the longest term since the government started to track these data in 1948. The number of long-term unemployed (those out of a job for 27 weeks or more) has now jumped to 4.4 million, an all-time high.



7. The average worker saw no wage gains in June, with average compensation running flat at an average of $18.53 an hour.



8. The jobs report is even uglier when you consider that the sector producing goods is losing the most jobs -- 223,000 in the last report alone.



9. The prospects for job creation are equally distressing. The likelihood is that when economic activity picks up, employers will first choose to increase hours for existing workers and bring part-time workers to full-time status.





<em>There is more...</em>
 
Trying to hold out and now get drawn in to the "green shoots" delusion makes me feel like some wacko conspiracy theorist.



Moon landing was faked! 9/11 was a CIA ploy! Obama's not a citizen! Sarah Palin wasn't the real mom! The stock market rally is manipulated!!!
 
[quote author="Oxtail" date=1248239095]Trying to hold out and now get drawn in to the "green shoots" delusion makes me feel like some wacko conspiracy theorist....The stock market rally is manipulated!!!</blockquote>


I actually believe this one :p
 
My coworkers make fun of me for my bearish outlook. "We broke 9000 today! Hurry up and get back in or you're going to miss the rally!"



Right now I'm just sitting on cash. Afraid to buy stocks because I feel it could collapse any day. Afraid to go short because you can't really fight the market if it wants to go up. Not really sure what to do at this point.
 
[quote author="Oxtail" date=1248392208]My coworkers make fun of me for my bearish outlook. "We broke 9000 today! Hurry up and get back in or you're going to miss the rally!"



Right now I'm just sitting on cash. Afraid to buy stocks because I feel it could collapse any day. Afraid to go short because you can't really fight the market if it wants to go up. Not really sure what to do at this point.</blockquote>


You are doing the right thing by holding cash. Your coworkers are chasing a sucker rally, and by looking at today's volume, one can see there are a lot nervious small investors are jumping in because they are afraid they are missing the boat. Stay in cash or start cumulating shorts slowly.
 
[quote author="BondTrader" date=1248395088][quote author="Oxtail" date=1248392208]My coworkers make fun of me for my bearish outlook. "We broke 9000 today! Hurry up and get back in or you're going to miss the rally!"



Right now I'm just sitting on cash. Afraid to buy stocks because I feel it could collapse any day. Afraid to go short because you can't really fight the market if it wants to go up. Not really sure what to do at this point.</blockquote>


You are doing the right thing by holding cash. Your coworkers are chasing a sucker rally, and by looking at today's volume, one can see there are a lot nervious small investors are jumping in because they are afraid they are missing the boat. Stay in cash or start cumulating shorts slowly.</blockquote>


well said. biggest bear trap ever. small time investors chasing prices...reminds me of the housing market near the end
 
Without getting into too much technicals, and by now we all have a pretty good picture about the foundamentals (jobs, housings, corporate earnings), by looking at the % spread between USD and S&P (chart attached), it's at its widest since March, 09, when S&P was at 676 and dollar index around 89, they crossed when S&P hit around 850 and dollar went down to around 84.5. Yesterday S&P hit 976 and dollar was near the low of 78. Keep in mind the Fed/Treasury is trying to do keep the equity market up without trashing the dollar too much. Looks like it's about time they support the dollar and let the S&P retreat a bit, my best guess two will cross again in about 6-8 weeks, how far S&P will fall is anyone's guess.
<fieldset class="gc-fieldset">
<legend> Attached files </legend> <a href="http://www.talkirvine.com/converted_files/images/forum_attachments/357_rIyu8u2vVuO3EwG54CHR.gif"><img src="http://www.talkirvine.com/converted_files/images/forum_attachments/357_rIyu8u2vVuO3EwG54CHR.gif" class="gc-images" title="sg2009072440996.gif" style="max-width:300px" /></a> </fieldset>
 
[quote author="BondTrader" date=1248475033]Without getting into too much technicals, and by now we all have a pretty good picture about the foundamentals (jobs, housings, corporate earnings), by looking at the % spread between USD and S&P (chart attached), it's at its widest since March, 09, when S&P was at 676 and dollar index around 89, they crossed when S&P hit around 850 and dollar went down to around 84.5. Yesterday S&P hit 976 and dollar was near the low of 78. Keep in mind the Fed/Treasury is trying to do keep the equity market up without trashing the dollar too much. Looks like it's about time they support the dollar and let the S&P retreat a bit, my best guess two will cross again in about 6-8 weeks, how far S&P will fall is anyone's guess.</blockquote>


BT, Thank you for the insightful attachment. I never knew how there is such a correlation with the value of the USD and the stock market. I guess I don't understand how the FED artifically allows the market to rise when they devalue the dollar and fall when the dollar rises. Does the FED have that much control of where the stock market is going? Is it possible that they can artifically inflate the DOW to 11,000 by letting the USD drop to 60? The DOW broke 9000 yesterday, but the unemployment and the profit situation of businesses seem like it has not changed much.
 
[quote author="PANDA" date=1248476045][quote author="BondTrader" date=1248475033]Without getting into too much technicals, and by now we all have a pretty good picture about the foundamentals (jobs, housings, corporate earnings), by looking at the % spread between USD and S&P (chart attached), it's at its widest since March, 09, when S&P was at 676 and dollar index around 89, they crossed when S&P hit around 850 and dollar went down to around 84.5. Yesterday S&P hit 976 and dollar was near the low of 78. Keep in mind the Fed/Treasury is trying to do keep the equity market up without trashing the dollar too much. Looks like it's about time they support the dollar and let the S&P retreat a bit, my best guess two will cross again in about 6-8 weeks, how far S&P will fall is anyone's guess.</blockquote>


BT, Thank you for the insightful attachment. I never knew how there is such a correlation with the value of the USD and the stock market. I guess I don't understand how the FED artifically allows the market to rise when they devalue the dollar and fall when the dollar rises. Does the FED have that much control of where the stock market is going? Is it possible that they can artifically inflate the DOW to 11,000 by letting the USD drop to 60? The DOW broke 9000 yesterday, but the unemployment and the profit situation of businesses seem like it has not changed much.</blockquote>


Just think about the dual mandates of Fed, control inflation (keep dollar strong) and market stability/manipulation, lol. To answer your question, in simple terms, Fed prints tons of money (devaluate the dollar) and give it to the TRAP banks, gain control of those banks and instruct them (mainly JPM, MS and C) to buy stocks, SPY (ETF for S&P 500) and often times pre-market purchase of futures to keep the market from falling. Of course, part of the rally is due to short covering, but if you watch closely, from March to May, there were many occasions stock market rallied right before it's about to fall apart. I can provide you with more evidence later if you interested in details, it's amazing to see JPM/MS computerized trading desk buying 5000 shares of SPY every 5 seconds for 10 mins !!!
 
Bondtrader,



I thought you would find this data interesting.. I noticed a cycle in commodity prices since the early 1800s. This is what i found:



1st Commodity Boom was from 1823 - 1838 (lasted 15 years)

2nd Commodity Boom was from 1848 - 1865 (lasted 17 years)

3rd Commodity Boom was from 1878 - 1918 (lasted 40 years)

4th Commodity Boom was from 1929 - 1950 (lasted 21 years)

5th Commodity Boom was from 1963 - 1980 (lasted 17 years)



Generally speaking, it appears that commodities peak every 30 years... which would be the 6th boom cycle roughly from 1992 - 2010. This is the reason why I think Gold will peak sometime in 2010/2011 time frame. Are you under the opinion that there is a good chance that we will see the biggest hyper-inflation of our lifetime before 2011? Do you believe in cycles?



In any case, everything you seem to be saying here... Panda totally agrees.
 
P~



I was just talking about that this morning! My bro in Taiwan thinks that the US Dollar will collapse next year, and there will be a run up in gold, possibly up to $15,000/oz; how likely is that? That will be crazy if it does?
 
[quote author="roundcorners" date=1248480869]P~



I was just talking about that this morning! My bro in Taiwan thinks that the US Dollar will collapse next year, and there will be a run up in gold, possibly up to $15,000/oz; how likely is that? That will be crazy if it does?</blockquote>


Wow, that's some very bold prediction on Gold. Here is mine, I believe Gold price ($960/ounce) will meet Dow Jones index (9000) somewhere in the middle, 4000? 5000?
 
[quote author="BondTrader" date=1248476988][quote author="PANDA" date=1248476045][quote author="BondTrader" date=1248475033]Without getting into too much technicals, and by now we all have a pretty good picture about the foundamentals (jobs, housings, corporate earnings), by looking at the % spread between USD and S&P (chart attached), it's at its widest since March, 09, when S&P was at 676 and dollar index around 89, they crossed when S&P hit around 850 and dollar went down to around 84.5. Yesterday S&P hit 976 and dollar was near the low of 78. Keep in mind the Fed/Treasury is trying to do keep the equity market up without trashing the dollar too much. Looks like it's about time they support the dollar and let the S&P retreat a bit, my best guess two will cross again in about 6-8 weeks, how far S&P will fall is anyone's guess.</blockquote>


BT, Thank you for the insightful attachment. I never knew how there is such a correlation with the value of the USD and the stock market. I guess I don't understand how the FED artifically allows the market to rise when they devalue the dollar and fall when the dollar rises. Does the FED have that much control of where the stock market is going? Is it possible that they can artifically inflate the DOW to 11,000 by letting the USD drop to 60? The DOW broke 9000 yesterday, but the unemployment and the profit situation of businesses seem like it has not changed much.</blockquote>


Just think about the dual mandates of Fed, control inflation (keep dollar strong) and market stability/manipulation, lol. To answer your question, in simple terms, Fed prints tons of money (devaluate the dollar) and give it to the TRAP banks, gain control of those banks and instruct them (mainly JPM, MS and C) to buy stocks, SPY (ETF for S&P 500) and often times pre-market purchase of futures to keep the market from falling. Of course, part of the rally is due to short covering, but if you watch closely, from March to May, there were many occasions stock market rallied right before it's about to fall apart. I can provide you with more evidence later if you interested in details, it's amazing to see JPM/MS computerized trading desk buying 5000 shares of SPY every 5 seconds for 10 mins !!!</blockquote>
If you could provide more evidence that would be great and very interesting to see. I too noticed how during the March thru May rally the PPT would rally futures into the open creating many, many gap ups for no reason (well, we know the reason). No wonder the trading desks made such huge profits for the banks in the second quarter.
 
"Gold: prices to jump to around 1800/oz around end

of year. So before end of summer now is the time to

buy. There may be dips too (IMF selling gold?) but jump

to 1800/oz may be around end of September. Then next

year at collapse of USD, (after Febuary 2010) for a few

days only it will be upwards to 15,000 range. Bubble starts

when gold hits 6,750/oz. Gold may be above 15,000 for

only 2 days. These 2 days is when I will be selling physical

gold at the bank. You should have a similar plan ready if you

want to get into this."



This is a cut and pasteof his email.. BT what do you think...?
 
[quote author="roundcorners" date=1248482829]"Gold: prices to jump to around 1800/oz around end

of year. So before end of summer now is the time to

buy. There may be dips too (IMF selling gold?) but jump

to 1800/oz may be around end of September. Then next

year at collapse of USD, (after Febuary 2010) for a few

days only it will be upwards to 15,000 range. Bubble starts

when gold hits 6,750/oz. Gold may be above 15,000 for

only 2 days. These 2 days is when I will be selling physical

gold at the bank. You should have a similar plan ready if you

want to get into this."



This is a cut and pasteof his email.. BT what do you think...?</blockquote>


My timeline is a bit longer than his. Basically it's all comes down to when economy will really start to recover and when China will pull the trigger on significantly reduce their USD T-bonds purchase. Based on my DD, my best guess Gold will peak around 2011-2012. 2009 year end target about 1200, maybe I'm being overly conserative on this.
 
[quote author="usctrojanman29" date=1248482077][quote author="BondTrader" date=1248476988][quote author="PANDA" date=1248476045][quote author="BondTrader" date=1248475033]Without getting into too much technicals, and by now we all have a pretty good picture about the foundamentals (jobs, housings, corporate earnings), by looking at the % spread between USD and S&P (chart attached), it's at its widest since March, 09, when S&P was at 676 and dollar index around 89, they crossed when S&P hit around 850 and dollar went down to around 84.5. Yesterday S&P hit 976 and dollar was near the low of 78. Keep in mind the Fed/Treasury is trying to do keep the equity market up without trashing the dollar too much. Looks like it's about time they support the dollar and let the S&P retreat a bit, my best guess two will cross again in about 6-8 weeks, how far S&P will fall is anyone's guess.</blockquote>


BT, Thank you for the insightful attachment. I never knew how there is such a correlation with the value of the USD and the stock market. I guess I don't understand how the FED artifically allows the market to rise when they devalue the dollar and fall when the dollar rises. Does the FED have that much control of where the stock market is going? Is it possible that they can artifically inflate the DOW to 11,000 by letting the USD drop to 60? The DOW broke 9000 yesterday, but the unemployment and the profit situation of businesses seem like it has not changed much.</blockquote>


Just think about the dual mandates of Fed, control inflation (keep dollar strong) and market stability/manipulation, lol. To answer your question, in simple terms, Fed prints tons of money (devaluate the dollar) and give it to the TRAP banks, gain control of those banks and instruct them (mainly JPM, MS and C) to buy stocks, SPY (ETF for S&P 500) and often times pre-market purchase of futures to keep the market from falling. Of course, part of the rally is due to short covering, but if you watch closely, from March to May, there were many occasions stock market rallied right before it's about to fall apart. I can provide you with more evidence later if you interested in details, it's amazing to see JPM/MS computerized trading desk buying 5000 shares of SPY every 5 seconds for 10 mins !!!</blockquote>
If you could provide more evidence that would be great and very interesting to see. I too noticed how during the March thru May rally the PPT would rally futures into the open creating many, many gap ups for no reason (well, we know the reason). No wonder the trading desks made such huge profits for the banks in the second quarter.</blockquote>




The following attachments are from the daily market update I sent to some of my people on 6/5/2009.
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<legend> Attached files </legend> <a href="http://www.talkirvine.com/converted_files/images/forum_attachments/358_EFpLFDOI6IiUMY51u7I9.jpg"><img src="http://www.talkirvine.com/converted_files/images/forum_attachments/358_EFpLFDOI6IiUMY51u7I9.jpg" class="gc-images" title="SP32-20090724-123727.jpg" style="max-width:300px" /></a> <a href="http://www.talkirvine.com/converted_files/images/forum_attachments/359_rBcPdRilrGJ4C5j28Udy.jpg"><img src="http://www.talkirvine.com/converted_files/images/forum_attachments/359_rBcPdRilrGJ4C5j28Udy.jpg" class="gc-images" title="SP32-20090724-123911.jpg" style="max-width:300px" /></a> </fieldset>
 
[quote author="BondTrader" date=1248486124][quote author="roundcorners" date=1248482829]"Gold: prices to jump to around 1800/oz around end

of year. So before end of summer now is the time to

buy. There may be dips too (IMF selling gold?) but jump

to 1800/oz may be around end of September. Then next

year at collapse of USD, (after Febuary 2010) for a few

days only it will be upwards to 15,000 range. Bubble starts

when gold hits 6,750/oz. Gold may be above 15,000 for

only 2 days. These 2 days is when I will be selling physical

gold at the bank. You should have a similar plan ready if you

want to get into this."



This is a cut and pasteof his email.. BT what do you think...?</blockquote>


My timeline is a bit longer than his. Basically it's all comes down to when economy will really start to recover and when China will pull the trigger on significantly reduce their USD T-bonds purchase. Based on my DD, my best guess Gold will peak around 2011-2012. 2009 year end target about 1200, maybe I'm being overly conserative on this.</blockquote>


2009 year end target about $1200 for Gold...? Very Nice :)
 
[quote author="BondTrader" date=1248481771][quote author="roundcorners" date=1248480869]P~



I was just talking about that this morning! My bro in Taiwan thinks that the US Dollar will collapse next year, and there will be a run up in gold, possibly up to $15,000/oz; how likely is that? That will be crazy if it does?</blockquote>


Wow, that's some very bold prediction on Gold. Here is mine, I believe Gold price ($960/ounce) will meet Dow Jones index (9000) somewhere in the middle, 4000? 5000?</blockquote>
Historically it goes at 1:1, Dow to one ounce. Check it out.
 
[quote author="awgee" date=1248501755][quote author="BondTrader" date=1248481771][quote author="roundcorners" date=1248480869]P~



I was just talking about that this morning! My bro in Taiwan thinks that the US Dollar will collapse next year, and there will be a run up in gold, possibly up to $15,000/oz; how likely is that? That will be crazy if it does?</blockquote>


Wow, that's some very bold prediction on Gold. Here is mine, I believe Gold price ($960/ounce) will meet Dow Jones index (9000) somewhere in the middle, 4000? 5000?</blockquote>
Historically it goes at 1:1, Dow to one ounce. Check it out.</blockquote>


One share of the Dow to one ounce of gold? When the dow was at 14,000...when was gold ever at 14,000 per ounce?
 
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