God?

[Mety]

the problem with hyper focus on growth is not just about churches - it is every part of society now

Look at the non profit sector today . Attend any board meeting. The way they talk about ?metrics? and ?ROI? etc you will quickly be lulled into thinking this is a Fortune 500 corporation. 

This is the problem when society has run out of new big ideas and all that is left is ?optimizing ?  and chasing efficiency gains . Organized Religion is no exception

Problem is what is the ultimate end goal after all this hyper optimizing ?

You bring a good point.

Church being influenced by these strategies and implementing just for the growth is pretty gross actually. I'm not saying growing or big churches are bad. They could be great if they spread the gospel. But I'm questioning the motives of these kinds of tactics. I once heard some big name leader trying to encourage church to be top dogs in America in every career or working field so that they can influence more people. I mean, where in the Bible or Jesus ever say things like that? I so believed and supported this guy for awhile but realized how un-biblical it was and he was doing it to collect more money.

Are the churches doing these to make more disciples or make more money? See, here is another money vs. God issue. I think the only strategy the church needs is just focusing on His words, teaching Christ from the Bible and God will take care of the rest. I really hope Christians in this nation wake up and take the privilege to read and study the word of God. Well, it could only be done by the Holy Spirit. I can only pray.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Since you seem like you want to get real technical, I will write on.

Like I've replied to Irvinecommuter, I think teaching the word of God has to be the priority in church. Yes, there are many other things in the Lord's day like singing hymns/praise, reading the word together, fellowships, dinning, etc. (I NEVER said those are bad. Please don't misunderstand.) Those are all elements of the Sunday gatherings. But if you have to choose one thing because of whatever reason (world is ending tomorrow/no one will see each other again/etc.), what would it be? I think proclaiming the gospel, which is really teaching who Christ is would be the only thing left. So that people would come to a conclusion whether to have faith or not. This is an extreme example, but just so that what's most important is rendered.

I agree that teaching the word of God is a priority but again, it's not the only thing. If I were to chose what would be the one thing, it would be fellowship, that's what God meant for us, to love him and to love one another... we are a relational species and we use those relations to express God's will. And you can say that is actually from the word of God.

About the relation of giving money and worship, let me get real real deep here since it is required to explain. You've been warned. What is worship? It's recognizing God and responding to Him by sacrificing what's very WORTH to us. When God had Moses bring Israel out of Egypt, He gave them the instruction how to WORSHIP. Yes, all those many regulations and rules to sacrifice animals and so on. We all know those regulations could not be kept, but God did give them so because He wanted His people to be set apart different which really means "holy" from the rest of the nations. He wasn't going to punish them if they couldn't keep up. He wanted to see if their heart really desires to follow His words, not expecting the perfection of human will. Anyways, those giving "sacrifices" were what was originally called "worship." But since Jesus sacrificed Himself once for all, we don't have to do those ritual ceremonies anymore. The only thing we can do is having faith that Jesus completed the Law. Now the only sacrifice really left is the "will offering," which from the original laws was granted to Israel to do so when they had willing heart to give additionally. So we can still do so by giving money. It could be our time, food or clothes anything that's worth to us. But as you know, those all require money. So this is the originated context of worship. Now these days for some reason, Christians think worship is some kind of band playing music and singing songs about God up on stage. Please remember, I'm not saying that's not worship nor bad. Those are all beautiful for I was heavily involved in music ministry myself. But saying worship is music is not quite right. Worship is everything like you said, but more so daily walk with God, devoting ourselves to know Him more, be like Him more as we will be one day.

I understand where you are going here but there has to be a balance. By the same token, there are many people who give money, time and talent but are not very Christian. It goes both ways.

Even though you say you don't, I think you have bias against more modern services/churches. I don't think it's fair to say that people equate worship with music/band, it's a type of worship and if people prefer it, why is that any less "biblical"?

What I'm disappointed with churches in America or many developed countries today is that they seem to focus on people more than God. How to attract more people? How to have better programs so that more people will be pleased? I think having those are all fine, but if the main focus (Christ) is missing, is that really church? Church is a body of Christ, correct? If the body does not know what part of the body it is, isn't that considered a malfunctioned? Why do I assume that? Because I've seen that happen in many churches including mine. Thousands of people attending a big mega church and not knowing a thing about what Jesus did is pretty sad, isn't it? Maybe like Irvinecoummter said, they are baby Christians and will grow more spiritually. Why then are so many younger generations leaving church? They might have been in it because of the cool music and nice feeling sermons, but once the scripture touches the subject of their sin, what would be the reaction? Would they still come repent or would they get disappointed and leave? I think many already left so younger people are not really believing in God anymore these days. If they really want to know why people are leaving it's because of the lack of teaching about Christ at front and smart younger people are fed up with programs that are trying to catch up with the world's trend. Well, you might still say that's my assumption and maybe it is. But I believe if churches were to teach gospel only more younger people or even non-believers will come to find out more about Christ for that is what the real church is from outsider's perspective anyways. One thing to clarify just in case someone takes it to whole another discussion, I'm still at my church even though it's not perfect and pray that we are pleasing God more than people thus we can serve and love people correctly.

I think what you are talking about are different issues. Churches like Mars Hill is an example that I think you are referring to, but focusing on people isn't a bad thing. As IC and I mentioned, that's part 2 of God's commandment (Matthew and Mark).Neither of us can say what is the "best" way for a church to function. You may not think the new type of service works but what if it does for some? Getting people to come to hear the word of God takes effort, and if that effort is being the son of God, playing music in a band, having a nice facility, giving an entertaining service... why would you discount that? I'm sure some Pharisee thought loaves and fish was not the "biblical" way. I guess I look more at the end rather than the means. And yes, I admit that some churches screw up both ends and means... but we just have to keep trying.

 

[Mety]

Since you seem like you want to get real technical, I will write on.

Like I've replied to Irvinecommuter, I think teaching the word of God has to be the priority in church. Yes, there are many other things in the Lord's day like singing hymns/praise, reading the word together, fellowships, dinning, etc. (I NEVER said those are bad. Please don't misunderstand.) Those are all elements of the Sunday gatherings. But if you have to choose one thing because of whatever reason (world is ending tomorrow/no one will see each other again/etc.), what would it be? I think proclaiming the gospel, which is really teaching who Christ is would be the only thing left. So that people would come to a conclusion whether to have faith or not. This is an extreme example, but just so that what's most important is rendered.

I agree that teaching the word of God is a priority but again, it's not the only thing. If I were to chose what would be the one thing, it would be fellowship, that's what God meant for us, to love him and to love one another... we are a relational species and we use those relations to express God's will. And you can say that is actually from the word of God.

About the relation of giving money and worship, let me get real real deep here since it is required to explain. You've been warned. What is worship? It's recognizing God and responding to Him by sacrificing what's very WORTH to us. When God had Moses bring Israel out of Egypt, He gave them the instruction how to WORSHIP. Yes, all those many regulations and rules to sacrifice animals and so on. We all know those regulations could not be kept, but God did give them so because He wanted His people to be set apart different which really means "holy" from the rest of the nations. He wasn't going to punish them if they couldn't keep up. He wanted to see if their heart really desires to follow His words, not expecting the perfection of human will. Anyways, those giving "sacrifices" were what was originally called "worship." But since Jesus sacrificed Himself once for all, we don't have to do those ritual ceremonies anymore. The only thing we can do is having faith that Jesus completed the Law. Now the only sacrifice really left is the "will offering," which from the original laws was granted to Israel to do so when they had willing heart to give additionally. So we can still do so by giving money. It could be our time, food or clothes anything that's worth to us. But as you know, those all require money. So this is the originated context of worship. Now these days for some reason, Christians think worship is some kind of band playing music and singing songs about God up on stage. Please remember, I'm not saying that's not worship nor bad. Those are all beautiful for I was heavily involved in music ministry myself. But saying worship is music is not quite right. Worship is everything like you said, but more so daily walk with God, devoting ourselves to know Him more, be like Him more as we will be one day.

I understand where you are going here but there has to be a balance. By the same token, there are many people who give money, time and talent but are not very Christian. It goes both ways.

Even though you say you don't, I think you have bias against more modern services/churches. I don't think it's fair to say that people equate worship with music/band, it's a type of worship and if people prefer it, why is that any less "biblical"?

What I'm disappointed with churches in America or many developed countries today is that they seem to focus on people more than God. How to attract more people? How to have better programs so that more people will be pleased? I think having those are all fine, but if the main focus (Christ) is missing, is that really church? Church is a body of Christ, correct? If the body does not know what part of the body it is, isn't that considered a malfunctioned? Why do I assume that? Because I've seen that happen in many churches including mine. Thousands of people attending a big mega church and not knowing a thing about what Jesus did is pretty sad, isn't it? Maybe like Irvinecoummter said, they are baby Christians and will grow more spiritually. Why then are so many younger generations leaving church? They might have been in it because of the cool music and nice feeling sermons, but once the scripture touches the subject of their sin, what would be the reaction? Would they still come repent or would they get disappointed and leave? I think many already left so younger people are not really believing in God anymore these days. If they really want to know why people are leaving it's because of the lack of teaching about Christ at front and smart younger people are fed up with programs that are trying to catch up with the world's trend. Well, you might still say that's my assumption and maybe it is. But I believe if churches were to teach gospel only more younger people or even non-believers will come to find out more about Christ for that is what the real church is from outsider's perspective anyways. One thing to clarify just in case someone takes it to whole another discussion, I'm still at my church even though it's not perfect and pray that we are pleasing God more than people thus we can serve and love people correctly.

I think what you are talking about are different issues. Churches like Mars Hill is an example that I think you are referring to, but focusing on people isn't a bad thing. As IC and I mentioned, that's part 2 of God's commandment (Matthew and Mark).Neither of us can say what is the "best" way for a church to function. You may not think the new type of service works but what if it does for some? Getting people to come to hear the word of God takes effort, and if that effort is being the son of God, playing music in a band, having a nice facility, giving an entertaining service... why would you discount that? I'm sure some Pharisee thought loaves and fish was not the "biblical" way. I guess I look more at the end rather than the means. And yes, I admit that some churches screw up both ends and means... but we just have to keep trying.

Irvinecommuter and you focus on the greatest commandment, love God and love others verse and that's great. But as I've mentioned, if you really love God, you WILL love others as yourself automatically for the Holy Spirit will do so through you. You can't love others like yourself. Period. Even further, you can't love God by your will. How am I so sure? That's what Jesus has been teaching all along. You can't fulfill the Law by your will while Pharisees and religious leaders acted like they could and asked heavy burdens on people. Only Jesus can fulfill and He has done it FOR you. Now if you accept that faith, The Holy Spirit dwells in you that moment you have faith so He will guide you to love God and naturally love others. So if one thinks Pharisees loved God but not people, that's mistaken. They did not love God The Father in the first place and Jesus pointed that out that was the very reason why they were not accepting The Son, Jesus.

My point? Love God and He will make you love others. That's the best way for church to even exist. How do we love God? We can love God by knowing Him. For example, if you loved your kids, you would want to know more about them everyday, wouldn't you? Yes, you accept them as they are and have fellowships, but again there is eager to know more and more everyday about them, discover about them so that you could guide them into right directions until they are fully grown. Knowing God comes from hearing His words and His words are available for us to read free in this country. As you pointed out the greatest commandment, reading and studying your bible so that knowing/loving God more does fulfill that commandment in a sense. You will love others naturally once that's done in your life and that's why I keep emphasizing that's the responsibility of the church and church leaders.

Please don't take it in a way I'm saying no fellowship, no music, no modern church. I never said those. I only said it is sad when church takes those above studying the word of God. I would take total different approach if this thread was about non-believers, but since almost half of the poll vote said they were Christians, I must take more strict standard here.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

I don't necessarily believe that just by loving God one will also love others.

That is why Jesus had to spell that out.

There are many points in history where man used the love for God as a reason to do horrible things to their fellow man. You can say they really didn't love God but that's not how they felt.

By the way, it's not lost on me that this conversation is a perfect example of why people don't understand Christianity.

I guess I feel that it is relative, each person has their own idea of church, that's why so many different ones exist and that's just within the scope of Christianity.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

"People are annoyed about the preachy and holier-than-thou attitude."
Yes, that could happen, but I think the main reason people get mad when they hear the gospel is because it hurts their sin. People don't want to be called a sinner and don't like their sins to be exposed as Jesus did to pretty much everyone He met.

No...most people get mad because they are put down as people and the religious people use the sin as an excuse to put those people down.  It's the "splinter in your eye...log in mine" teaching.

Jesus did not expose most people's sin...he praised people for exhibition of faith but very seldomly commented on their sin.  To God, every human is a sinner and equally bad.  What Jesus did a lot of was slamming of pharisees who were constantly measuring people by their actions and alleged "holiness"  I would say that the "sin" that Jesus seemed to be most concerned about was spiritual pride...or at least self-proclaimed/self-indulgent spiritual pride. 

Jesus saw the person...not the sin.  Just like the father saw the prodigal son for the son he lost...not for the dirt

I must address this for it might mislead people. You might already know, but just to make it true to how it is written in the Bible.

Jesus praising of someone's faith was mentioned only 2 times in the Bible. One with a Centurion and another one with a Syrophoenician woman. Both were Gentiles not Jews. Jesus praised, literal Greek translation would be, He said, "MEGA is your faith." You can look it up yourself, but just wanted to address correctly.

Mostly other times, Jesus had to rebuke His disciples or someone's lack of faith. Just count how many times He said, "O you of little faith." It does not mean He hated or looked down on them. He had to rebuke so that they would wake up. Jesus even rebuked Peter saying "Get behind me, Satan," when Peter tried to stop Jesus when He said He would die on the cross. Again, it doesn't mean Jesus didn't love Peter. He was literally rebuking Satan and saving Peter from falling into Satan's desire. There are so many other times He exposed people's sins for them to repent. Some did repent, but some left sadly like that rich young man.

Praising someone's faith is good, but truer love is shown when rebuking those you really love for them to not fall into Satan's lies. Please don't take my writing and think Jesus only praised someone twice. I'm sure He did so more, but The Bible is clearly telling us there were more rebuking, but it was definitely out of LOVE.

Jesus had to address sins so that people could be saved. If you carefully read the full story of the prodigal son story example, the prodigal son regretted his sins and repented of his sins so he was accepted again when he returned, but the older son was not accepted because of his un-willing heart to repent of his sin when he was not happy of his brother coming back home. Why was he not happy? Because return of the brother means he would have to share his father's will again. Not only the father's accepting the sinful son returning home was the climax but also the older son being arrogant was the punch line Jesus was saying in the faces of hypocritical Jewish leaders who loved money and people's praise more than God.

Again...you make general broad statements without specific reference, which makes it really really hard to discuss the matter.

With respect to faith, there are plenty of quotes regarding it and its critical and central role in salvation.  The mustard seed parable, the discussion re not worrying,

I do not believe there were any discussions previously about "praising" someone's faith.  I was making a point that faith is the critical element...everything else is secondary.  To get bogged down on those things detract from the main message...which is faith and love.  Going back to my previous points, Jesus stated that there are two commandments, Love your God and Love your neighbor.  Those things are not separate and apart.  To love God is to love his creation. 

I would disagree that he often "exposed" people's sins...most of the time, he talked in generality.  He would often correct his disciples not because of "sin" but rather than they lack faith...Peter looking down at the water, disciples not being able to cast out demons, disciples coming to him at telling him that things are impossible, etc.  With respect to incident re Peter you mentioned, it was a way to remind Peter to have faith that there is a greater plan.  Peter always wanted to take charge and do things on his own as a way to prove to Jesus that he was loyal to Jesus.  As the remainder of Mark 8:33 states:

But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, ?Get behind me, Satan! For you bare not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.?

Of course, it is fair game for Christians to course correct and we should keep our brothers/sisters on the proper path but again, that should be done in love and without a sense of authority or righteousness.  We are all sinners and thus should always look to God for guidance and growth.  The fact that we are all sinners and need God for salvation is the key to being a Christian, not whether one translation is more accurate than another or what the original Greek/Hebrew meaning is or isn't. 

You seem to preach this concept of self-improvement is the path to enlightenment when it is my opinion that Jesus preached the opposite.  Jesus demonstrated love and faith...not read up about it.  Reading the Bible and understanding the word of God are ways to keep ourselves in line/in tune with God but it should not be a stick to bash others.  Jesus quoted scripture to counter Satan and those who attacked him but he did not use them to bash people or tell them that they are wrong.

Going back to the prodigal son discussion, yes the younger son realized his faults but the father did not know that...he just welcomed him back...dirt and all.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Irvinecommuter and you focus on the greatest commandment, love God and love others verse and that's great. But as I've mentioned, if you really love God, you WILL love others as yourself automatically for the Holy Spirit will do so through you. You can't love others like yourself. Period. Even further, you can't love God by your will. How am I so sure? That's what Jesus has been teaching all along. You can't fulfill the Law by your will while Pharisees and religious leaders acted like they could and asked heavy burdens on people. Only Jesus can fulfill and He has done it FOR you. Now if you accept that faith, The Holy Spirit dwells in you that moment you have faith so He will guide you to love God and naturally love others. So if one thinks Pharisees loved God but not people, that's mistaken. They did not love God The Father in the first place and Jesus pointed that out that was the very reason why they were not accepting The Son, Jesus.

My point? Love God and He will make you love others. That's the best way for church to even exist. How do we love God? We can love God by knowing Him. For example, if you loved your kids, you would want to know more about them everyday, wouldn't you? Yes, you accept them as they are and have fellowships, but again there is eager to know more and more everyday about them, discover about them so that you could guide them into right directions until they are fully grown. Knowing God comes from hearing His words and His words are available for us to read free in this country. As you pointed out the greatest commandment, reading and studying your bible so that knowing/loving God more does fulfill that commandment in a sense. You will love others naturally once that's done in your life and that's why I keep emphasizing that's the responsibility of the church and church leaders.

Please don't take it in a way I'm saying no fellowship, no music, no modern church. I never said those. I only said it is sad when church takes those above studying the word of God. I would take total different approach if this thread was about non-believers, but since almost half of the poll vote said they were Christians, I must take more strict standard here.

It flows both ways...God is love so love in any form in a reflection of God and a sign of faith.  Yes the Church is supposed to help a Christian mature and grow but it is also supposed to help bring in unbelievers.  Jesus said himself that he came for the unbelievers...not those who are saved.  He was training his disciples to spread the Gospel after he leaves but those disciples were not rabbis or biblical academics.  He taught them to have faith and demonstrate God's love and salvation. 

I don't know what you mean by "church takes those above studying the word of God."  Again, I think IHO and I are both saying that you can do all those things together...not one element is more important than the other.

After a day plus worth of discussion, I am still not understanding your points. 

 

[Mety]

I don't necessarily believe that just by loving God one will also love others.

That is why Jesus had to spell that out.

There are many points in history where man used the love for God as a reason to do horrible things to their fellow man. You can say they really didn't love God but that's not how they felt.

By the way, it's not lost on me that this conversation is a perfect example of why people don't understand Christianity.

I guess I feel that it is relative, each person has their own idea of church, that's why so many different ones exist and that's just within the scope of Christianity.

Thanks for your honest opinion.

Yes, I think those who has done horrible things in the name of God in history were not really Christians. I do think they were using God's name to accomplish what their own heart desires. Crusades is one example.

BUT those people later on could have repented and returned to God (which I doubt, but there is always possibility so let's leave it at that).

So we disagree on loving God will do loving others. Let's pray and ask God what His will is then.

 

[Mety]

"People are annoyed about the preachy and holier-than-thou attitude."
Yes, that could happen, but I think the main reason people get mad when they hear the gospel is because it hurts their sin. People don't want to be called a sinner and don't like their sins to be exposed as Jesus did to pretty much everyone He met.

No...most people get mad because they are put down as people and the religious people use the sin as an excuse to put those people down.  It's the "splinter in your eye...log in mine" teaching.

Jesus did not expose most people's sin...he praised people for exhibition of faith but very seldomly commented on their sin.  To God, every human is a sinner and equally bad.  What Jesus did a lot of was slamming of pharisees who were constantly measuring people by their actions and alleged "holiness"  I would say that the "sin" that Jesus seemed to be most concerned about was spiritual pride...or at least self-proclaimed/self-indulgent spiritual pride. 

Jesus saw the person...not the sin.  Just like the father saw the prodigal son for the son he lost...not for the dirt

I must address this for it might mislead people. You might already know, but just to make it true to how it is written in the Bible.

Jesus praising of someone's faith was mentioned only 2 times in the Bible. One with a Centurion and another one with a Syrophoenician woman. Both were Gentiles not Jews. Jesus praised, literal Greek translation would be, He said, "MEGA is your faith." You can look it up yourself, but just wanted to address correctly.

Mostly other times, Jesus had to rebuke His disciples or someone's lack of faith. Just count how many times He said, "O you of little faith." It does not mean He hated or looked down on them. He had to rebuke so that they would wake up. Jesus even rebuked Peter saying "Get behind me, Satan," when Peter tried to stop Jesus when He said He would die on the cross. Again, it doesn't mean Jesus didn't love Peter. He was literally rebuking Satan and saving Peter from falling into Satan's desire. There are so many other times He exposed people's sins for them to repent. Some did repent, but some left sadly like that rich young man.

Praising someone's faith is good, but truer love is shown when rebuking those you really love for them to not fall into Satan's lies. Please don't take my writing and think Jesus only praised someone twice. I'm sure He did so more, but The Bible is clearly telling us there were more rebuking, but it was definitely out of LOVE.

Jesus had to address sins so that people could be saved. If you carefully read the full story of the prodigal son story example, the prodigal son regretted his sins and repented of his sins so he was accepted again when he returned, but the older son was not accepted because of his un-willing heart to repent of his sin when he was not happy of his brother coming back home. Why was he not happy? Because return of the brother means he would have to share his father's will again. Not only the father's accepting the sinful son returning home was the climax but also the older son being arrogant was the punch line Jesus was saying in the faces of hypocritical Jewish leaders who loved money and people's praise more than God.

Again...you make general broad statements without specific reference, which makes it really really hard to discuss the matter.

With respect to faith, there are plenty of quotes regarding it and its critical and central role in salvation.  The mustard seed parable, the discussion re not worrying,

I do not believe there were any discussions previously about "praising" someone's faith.  I was making a point that faith is the critical element...everything else is secondary.  To get bogged down on those things detract from the main message...which is faith and love.  Going back to my previous points, Jesus stated that there are two commandments, Love your God and Love your neighbor.  Those things are not separate and apart.  To love God is to love his creation. 

I would disagree that he often "exposed" people's sins...most of the time, he talked in generality.  He would often correct his disciples not because of "sin" but rather than they lack faith...Peter looking down at the water, disciples not being able to cast out demons, disciples coming to him at telling him that things are impossible, etc.  With respect to incident re Peter you mentioned, it was a way to remind Peter to have faith that there is a greater plan.  Peter always wanted to take charge and do things on his own as a way to prove to Jesus that he was loyal to Jesus.  As the remainder of Mark 8:33 states:

But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, ?Get behind me, Satan! For you bare not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.?

Of course, it is fair game for Christians to course correct and we should keep our brothers/sisters on the proper path but again, that should be done in love and without a sense of authority or righteousness.  We are all sinners and thus should always look to God for guidance and growth.  The fact that we are all sinners and need God for salvation is the key to being a Christian, not whether one translation is more accurate than another or what the original Greek/Hebrew meaning is or isn't. 

You seem to preach this concept of self-improvement is the path to enlightenment when it is my opinion that Jesus preached the opposite.  Jesus demonstrated love and faith...not read up about it.  Reading the Bible and understanding the word of God are ways to keep ourselves in line/in tune with God but it should not be a stick to bash others.  Jesus quoted scripture to counter Satan and those who attacked him but he did not use them to bash people or tell them that they are wrong.

Going back to the prodigal son discussion, yes the younger son realized his faults but the father did not know that...he just welcomed him back...dirt and all.

Jesus did rebuke people with the Old Testament scriptures when needed.

For the prodigal son again, the main concept is he "returned." It's not just the father accepting without knowing what's going on. Yes, he did run to embrace his son which was very rare and even un-dignifying at that time of era, but that's not the point.

Let me ask you these. Silly questions, but has reasons.
Do I sound like I love you as a brother in Christ? And Do you love me also?

 

[Irvinecommuter]

I don't necessarily believe that just by loving God one will also love others.

That is why Jesus had to spell that out.

There are many points in history where man used the love for God as a reason to do horrible things to their fellow man. You can say they really didn't love God but that's not how they felt.

By the way, it's not lost on me that this conversation is a perfect example of why people don't understand Christianity.

I guess I feel that it is relative, each person has their own idea of church, that's why so many different ones exist and that's just within the scope of Christianity.

Thanks for your honest opinion.

Yes, I think those who has done horrible things in the name of God in history were not really Christians. I do think they were using God's name to accomplish what their own heart desires. Crusades is one example.

BUT those people later on could have repented and returned to God (which I doubt, but there is always possibility so let's leave it at that).

So we disagree on loving God will do loving others. Let's pray and ask God what His will is then.

That's not true...there are plenty of people in the Crusades who truly believe that they were doing the will of God by driving out Muslims in the promise land.  It's not that different than what a lot of end of days Christians now believe about the ME.  That it is a Christian's duty to protect Israel and Christians in the ME.  It's also not that different than the Evangelical Christians being singly focused on abortion.

I don't think that IHO means that loving God could not result in loving others but rather that there are plenty of example in history where people believe that they are loving God while ignoring the need to love others.  For example, Benedictine Monks lock themselves away for the sole purpose for focusing on studying the word of God and refine their relationship with God.  The focus should be two fold...loving God will help make your a "better person" because your old self is being replaced by God/Holy Spirit but that it is impossible to say that such an event is happening if you just stay in the church.

 

[Mety]

Irvinecommuter and you focus on the greatest commandment, love God and love others verse and that's great. But as I've mentioned, if you really love God, you WILL love others as yourself automatically for the Holy Spirit will do so through you. You can't love others like yourself. Period. Even further, you can't love God by your will. How am I so sure? That's what Jesus has been teaching all along. You can't fulfill the Law by your will while Pharisees and religious leaders acted like they could and asked heavy burdens on people. Only Jesus can fulfill and He has done it FOR you. Now if you accept that faith, The Holy Spirit dwells in you that moment you have faith so He will guide you to love God and naturally love others. So if one thinks Pharisees loved God but not people, that's mistaken. They did not love God The Father in the first place and Jesus pointed that out that was the very reason why they were not accepting The Son, Jesus.

My point? Love God and He will make you love others. That's the best way for church to even exist. How do we love God? We can love God by knowing Him. For example, if you loved your kids, you would want to know more about them everyday, wouldn't you? Yes, you accept them as they are and have fellowships, but again there is eager to know more and more everyday about them, discover about them so that you could guide them into right directions until they are fully grown. Knowing God comes from hearing His words and His words are available for us to read free in this country. As you pointed out the greatest commandment, reading and studying your bible so that knowing/loving God more does fulfill that commandment in a sense. You will love others naturally once that's done in your life and that's why I keep emphasizing that's the responsibility of the church and church leaders.

Please don't take it in a way I'm saying no fellowship, no music, no modern church. I never said those. I only said it is sad when church takes those above studying the word of God. I would take total different approach if this thread was about non-believers, but since almost half of the poll vote said they were Christians, I must take more strict standard here.

It flows both ways...God is love so love in any form in a reflection of God and a sign of faith.  Yes the Church is supposed to help a Christian mature and grow but it is also supposed to help bring in unbelievers.  Jesus said himself that he came for the unbelievers...not those who are saved.  He was training his disciples to spread the Gospel after he leaves but those disciples were not rabbis or biblical academics.  He taught them to have faith and demonstrate God's love and salvation. 

I don't know what you mean by "church takes those above studying the word of God."  Again, I think IHO and I are both saying that you can do all those things together...not one element is more important than the other.

After a day plus worth of discussion, I am still not understanding your points.

What is your point? What are you trying to prove?
I think I made my points pretty clear, but it could be that you're not fully getting because I'm just answering IHO's questions and replying to your arguments.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Jesus did rebuke people with the Old Testament scriptures when needed.

For the prodigal son again, the main concept is he "returned." It's not just the father accepting without knowing what's going on. Yes, he did run to embrace his son which was very rare and even un-dignifying at that time of era, but that's not the point.

Let me ask you these. Silly questions, but has reasons.
Do I sound like I love you as a brother in Christ? And Do you love me also?

I love all humans regardless of whether they are or are not Christians for they are the cherished creation of God.

Jesus rebuked his disciples due to their lack of faith...he rebuked the Pharisees for their misuses/abuses of their positions and for ignoring the true intentions of God.  He would reference Old Testament verses but generally to counter legalistic arguments or to affirm that he was fulfilling prophecies.

 

[Mety]

Jesus did rebuke people with the Old Testament scriptures when needed.

For the prodigal son again, the main concept is he "returned." It's not just the father accepting without knowing what's going on. Yes, he did run to embrace his son which was very rare and even un-dignifying at that time of era, but that's not the point.

Let me ask you these. Silly questions, but has reasons.
Do I sound like I love you as a brother in Christ? And Do you love me also?

I love all humans regardless of whether they are or are not Christians for they are the cherished creation of God.

Jesus rebuked his disciples due to their lack of faith...he rebuked the Pharisees for their misuses/abuses of their positions and for ignoring the true intentions of God.  He would reference Old Testament verses but generally to counter legalistic arguments or to affirm that he was fulfilling prophecies.

Haha. I think you are the one who's being broad here.

As for Jesus rebuking, I only replied to your comment since you said Jesus never used scriptures to tell someone wrong. But now you are saying He did so, I'm kinda confused where your position is.

You still have not answered my another question. Do you think I love you?

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Irvinecommuter and you focus on the greatest commandment, love God and love others verse and that's great. But as I've mentioned, if you really love God, you WILL love others as yourself automatically for the Holy Spirit will do so through you. You can't love others like yourself. Period. Even further, you can't love God by your will. How am I so sure? That's what Jesus has been teaching all along. You can't fulfill the Law by your will while Pharisees and religious leaders acted like they could and asked heavy burdens on people. Only Jesus can fulfill and He has done it FOR you. Now if you accept that faith, The Holy Spirit dwells in you that moment you have faith so He will guide you to love God and naturally love others. So if one thinks Pharisees loved God but not people, that's mistaken. They did not love God The Father in the first place and Jesus pointed that out that was the very reason why they were not accepting The Son, Jesus.

My point? Love God and He will make you love others. That's the best way for church to even exist. How do we love God? We can love God by knowing Him. For example, if you loved your kids, you would want to know more about them everyday, wouldn't you? Yes, you accept them as they are and have fellowships, but again there is eager to know more and more everyday about them, discover about them so that you could guide them into right directions until they are fully grown. Knowing God comes from hearing His words and His words are available for us to read free in this country. As you pointed out the greatest commandment, reading and studying your bible so that knowing/loving God more does fulfill that commandment in a sense. You will love others naturally once that's done in your life and that's why I keep emphasizing that's the responsibility of the church and church leaders.

Please don't take it in a way I'm saying no fellowship, no music, no modern church. I never said those. I only said it is sad when church takes those above studying the word of God. I would take total different approach if this thread was about non-believers, but since almost half of the poll vote said they were Christians, I must take more strict standard here.

It flows both ways...God is love so love in any form in a reflection of God and a sign of faith.  Yes the Church is supposed to help a Christian mature and grow but it is also supposed to help bring in unbelievers.  Jesus said himself that he came for the unbelievers...not those who are saved.  He was training his disciples to spread the Gospel after he leaves but those disciples were not rabbis or biblical academics.  He taught them to have faith and demonstrate God's love and salvation. 

I don't know what you mean by "church takes those above studying the word of God."  Again, I think IHO and I are both saying that you can do all those things together...not one element is more important than the other.

After a day plus worth of discussion, I am still not understanding your points.

What is your point? What are you trying to prove?
I think I made my points pretty clear, but it could be that you're not fully getting because I'm just answering IHO's questions and replying to your arguments.

No...I don't think you made your points very clearly.  You would make points and then say that it's not what you mean or that you did not intend to convey certain message/points.  For example, you specifically told me that I should repent because my understanding of the Bible is different from you...and then you said that you did not really mean it. 

Alternatively, you would state certain criticisms of certain churches but then never provide any specifics.

That is why I am asking you what your arguments and/or criticisms are. 

I already stated above that church is where God/Holy Spirit dwells...it is not a specific building or a specific location....it can be a Christian music concert with 30,000 worshipers or a private moment between 2 or 3 believers.  It could a meeting in which a non-believer is talking to Christians about what it means to be a Christian.  The location and agenda are not important...the key is whether God and the Holy Spirit are present. 

Yes, I think it is important to learn the Bible and discuss it but I do not think that such items are more important than worship or extending a hand to those in need or going on missions trips to help the less fortunate or going to a friend's house to comfort him or her in their time or need.  Those are all things that a Christian should do because that's what Jesus did.

 

[Mety]

I don't necessarily believe that just by loving God one will also love others.

That is why Jesus had to spell that out.

There are many points in history where man used the love for God as a reason to do horrible things to their fellow man. You can say they really didn't love God but that's not how they felt.

By the way, it's not lost on me that this conversation is a perfect example of why people don't understand Christianity.

I guess I feel that it is relative, each person has their own idea of church, that's why so many different ones exist and that's just within the scope of Christianity.

Thanks for your honest opinion.

Yes, I think those who has done horrible things in the name of God in history were not really Christians. I do think they were using God's name to accomplish what their own heart desires. Crusades is one example.

BUT those people later on could have repented and returned to God (which I doubt, but there is always possibility so let's leave it at that).

So we disagree on loving God will do loving others. Let's pray and ask God what His will is then.

That's not true...there are plenty of people in the Crusades who truly believe that they were doing the will of God by driving out Muslims in the promise land.  It's not that different than what a lot of end of days Christians now believe about the ME.  That it is a Christian's duty to protect Israel and Christians in the ME.  It's also not that different than the Evangelical Christians being singly focused on abortion.

I don't think that IHO means that loving God could not result in loving others but rather that there are plenty of example in history where people believe that they are loving God while ignoring the need to love others.  For example, Benedictine Monks lock themselves away for the sole purpose for focusing on studying the word of God and refine their relationship with God.  The focus should be two fold...loving God will help make your a "better person" because your old self is being replaced by God/Holy Spirit but that it is impossible to say that such an event is happening if you just stay in the church.

Well those are your takes, then they are. I'm not going to argue these cases.

I'm fine as long as you are not interpreting the scripture wrong and post here. I must get it straight then.

 

[panda]

Hi Mety,
I haven't been here for a while, but wanted to say that I am really encouraged by the content you are putting out there about your faith as a believer. Just wanted to say thanks.

Panda

Jesus did rebuke people with the Old Testament scriptures when needed.

For the prodigal son again, the main concept is he "returned." It's not just the father accepting without knowing what's going on. Yes, he did run to embrace his son which was very rare and even un-dignifying at that time of era, but that's not the point.

Let me ask you these. Silly questions, but has reasons.
Do I sound like I love you as a brother in Christ? And Do you love me also?

I love all humans regardless of whether they are or are not Christians for they are the cherished creation of God.

Jesus rebuked his disciples due to their lack of faith...he rebuked the Pharisees for their misuses/abuses of their positions and for ignoring the true intentions of God.  He would reference Old Testament verses but generally to counter legalistic arguments or to affirm that he was fulfilling prophecies.

Haha. I think you are the one who's being broad here.

As for Jesus rebuking, I only replied to your comment since you said Jesus never used scriptures to tell someone wrong. But now you are saying He did so, I'm kinda confused where your position is.

You still have not answered my another question. Do you think I love you?

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Jesus did rebuke people with the Old Testament scriptures when needed.

For the prodigal son again, the main concept is he "returned." It's not just the father accepting without knowing what's going on. Yes, he did run to embrace his son which was very rare and even un-dignifying at that time of era, but that's not the point.

Let me ask you these. Silly questions, but has reasons.
Do I sound like I love you as a brother in Christ? And Do you love me also?

I love all humans regardless of whether they are or are not Christians for they are the cherished creation of God.

Jesus rebuked his disciples due to their lack of faith...he rebuked the Pharisees for their misuses/abuses of their positions and for ignoring the true intentions of God.  He would reference Old Testament verses but generally to counter legalistic arguments or to affirm that he was fulfilling prophecies.

Haha. I think you are the one who's being broad here.

As for Jesus rebuking, I only replied to your comment since you said Jesus never used scriptures to tell someone wrong. But now you are saying He did so, I'm kinda confused where your position is.

You still have not answered my another question. Do you think I love you?

Yeah...if you go back and look at my statement...I used words like seldomly or not very often. 

I think that you believe that you are acting in love and I have no doubt that you believe that you are acting in love but you have not quite set forth that message.

 

[Mety]

Irvinecommuter and you focus on the greatest commandment, love God and love others verse and that's great. But as I've mentioned, if you really love God, you WILL love others as yourself automatically for the Holy Spirit will do so through you. You can't love others like yourself. Period. Even further, you can't love God by your will. How am I so sure? That's what Jesus has been teaching all along. You can't fulfill the Law by your will while Pharisees and religious leaders acted like they could and asked heavy burdens on people. Only Jesus can fulfill and He has done it FOR you. Now if you accept that faith, The Holy Spirit dwells in you that moment you have faith so He will guide you to love God and naturally love others. So if one thinks Pharisees loved God but not people, that's mistaken. They did not love God The Father in the first place and Jesus pointed that out that was the very reason why they were not accepting The Son, Jesus.

My point? Love God and He will make you love others. That's the best way for church to even exist. How do we love God? We can love God by knowing Him. For example, if you loved your kids, you would want to know more about them everyday, wouldn't you? Yes, you accept them as they are and have fellowships, but again there is eager to know more and more everyday about them, discover about them so that you could guide them into right directions until they are fully grown. Knowing God comes from hearing His words and His words are available for us to read free in this country. As you pointed out the greatest commandment, reading and studying your bible so that knowing/loving God more does fulfill that commandment in a sense. You will love others naturally once that's done in your life and that's why I keep emphasizing that's the responsibility of the church and church leaders.

Please don't take it in a way I'm saying no fellowship, no music, no modern church. I never said those. I only said it is sad when church takes those above studying the word of God. I would take total different approach if this thread was about non-believers, but since almost half of the poll vote said they were Christians, I must take more strict standard here.

It flows both ways...God is love so love in any form in a reflection of God and a sign of faith.  Yes the Church is supposed to help a Christian mature and grow but it is also supposed to help bring in unbelievers.  Jesus said himself that he came for the unbelievers...not those who are saved.  He was training his disciples to spread the Gospel after he leaves but those disciples were not rabbis or biblical academics.  He taught them to have faith and demonstrate God's love and salvation. 

I don't know what you mean by "church takes those above studying the word of God."  Again, I think IHO and I are both saying that you can do all those things together...not one element is more important than the other.

After a day plus worth of discussion, I am still not understanding your points.

What is your point? What are you trying to prove?
I think I made my points pretty clear, but it could be that you're not fully getting because I'm just answering IHO's questions and replying to your arguments.

No...I don't think you made your points very clearly.  You would make points and then say that it's not what you mean or that you did not intend to convey certain message/points.  For example, you specifically told me that I should repent because my understanding of the Bible is different from you...and then you said that you did not really mean it. 

Alternatively, you would state certain criticisms of certain churches but then never provide any specifics.

That is why I am asking you what your arguments and/or criticisms are. 

I already stated above that church is where God/Holy Spirit dwells...it is not a specific building or a specific location....it can be a Christian music concert with 30,000 worshipers or a private moment between 2 or 3 believers.  It could a meeting in which a non-believer is talking to Christians about what it means to be a Christian.  The location and agenda are not important...the key is whether God and the Holy Spirit are present. 

Yes, I think it is important to learn the Bible and discuss it but I do not think that such items are more important than worship or extending a hand to those in need or going on missions trips to help the less fortunate or going to a friend's house to comfort him or her in their time or need.  Those are all things that a Christian should do because that's what Jesus did.

I still think you should repent if you don't literally believe everything in The Bible as inerrant word of God. I never took that back in case you didn't know (sorry).

I'm not interested in naming people and churches to criticize. I believe that's pretty ugly especially in a public forum.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

I still think you should repent if you don't literally believe everything in The Bible as inerrant word of God. I never took that back in case you didn't know (sorry).

I'm not interested in naming people and churches to criticize. I believe that's pretty ugly especially in a public forum.

Did I say I did not believe that the Bible is the word of God?  If I did not believe it so, why would be citing Scripture to you in support of my points? The dispute was as to the interpretation of the text of the Bible, which you basically stated that your interpretation is the accurate one and that I should repent for believing something else.

You don't have to name specific churches or people..you can list practices that you believe are improper. 

 

[Mety]

Jesus did rebuke people with the Old Testament scriptures when needed.

For the prodigal son again, the main concept is he "returned." It's not just the father accepting without knowing what's going on. Yes, he did run to embrace his son which was very rare and even un-dignifying at that time of era, but that's not the point.

Let me ask you these. Silly questions, but has reasons.
Do I sound like I love you as a brother in Christ? And Do you love me also?

I love all humans regardless of whether they are or are not Christians for they are the cherished creation of God.

Jesus rebuked his disciples due to their lack of faith...he rebuked the Pharisees for their misuses/abuses of their positions and for ignoring the true intentions of God.  He would reference Old Testament verses but generally to counter legalistic arguments or to affirm that he was fulfilling prophecies.

Haha. I think you are the one who's being broad here.

As for Jesus rebuking, I only replied to your comment since you said Jesus never used scriptures to tell someone wrong. But now you are saying He did so, I'm kinda confused where your position is.

You still have not answered my another question. Do you think I love you?

Yeah...if you go back and look at my statement...I used words like seldomly or not very often. 

I think that you believe that you are acting in love and I have no doubt that you believe that you are acting in love but you have not quite set forth that message.

Well, if you don't feel like I'm not showing enough love but only being preachy, then that's unfortunate you took it like that. I hope you know I'm loving you with patience and not being irritable. I may not love you as much as Christ did yet, but hopefully we will one day.

 

[Mety]

Hi Mety,
I haven't been here for a while, but wanted to say that I am really encouraged by the content you are putting out there about your faith as a believer. Just wanted to say thanks.

Panda

Jesus did rebuke people with the Old Testament scriptures when needed.

For the prodigal son again, the main concept is he "returned." It's not just the father accepting without knowing what's going on. Yes, he did run to embrace his son which was very rare and even un-dignifying at that time of era, but that's not the point.

Let me ask you these. Silly questions, but has reasons.
Do I sound like I love you as a brother in Christ? And Do you love me also?

I love all humans regardless of whether they are or are not Christians for they are the cherished creation of God.

Jesus rebuked his disciples due to their lack of faith...he rebuked the Pharisees for their misuses/abuses of their positions and for ignoring the true intentions of God.  He would reference Old Testament verses but generally to counter legalistic arguments or to affirm that he was fulfilling prophecies.

Haha. I think you are the one who's being broad here.

As for Jesus rebuking, I only replied to your comment since you said Jesus never used scriptures to tell someone wrong. But now you are saying He did so, I'm kinda confused where your position is.

You still have not answered my another question. Do you think I love you?

Thanks Panda.
Glad to hear there was encouragement.
I'm a learner as well, but I hope to strengthen brothers in Christ with His words more and more.