God?

[Irvinecommuter]

Read what I replied to IHO. Music or singing songs about God can be part of worship. And believe me, it's a beautiful thing.

I don't understand what you are arguing about at all.  Jesus hung out in parties with sinners and shared wine with them.  He didn't preach to them...he just hung out with them and made them feel accepted.  Not everyone is on the same spiritual level as thus the level of acceptance of message are different.

Just like babies drink milk, a newcomer needs spiritual milk.  As one grows more mature in the spirit, one can take more solid (less pleasant) aspect of Christianity.  I do not understand your objections.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

It could be my bad writing, but I don't see much different view from what you wrote here so I don't know what you are not getting. Please describe more.

Honestly, I do not understand what you are arguing.  The delivery of something is not representative of the message being conveyed.  The Pharisees were very prim and proper when it came to rituals and presentation but then spewed complete nonsense in what they preached and practiced.

I listen to a lot of the "established" Christian leaders in this country and just cringe at the damage they are doing to Christianity.  They put their beliefs and understanding before spreading the word of God.

There are two commandments for Christians:  Love your God and Love your Neighbors.  It's as simple and as complicated as that.

 

[Mety]

Surprised to see more than 45% do believe in God and call themselves Christians in this forum.

If you are one of them, do you literally believe everything that's written in The Holy Bible (yes, 66 books of the Old and New Testaments) and it is a inerrant word of God? There could be arguments from different versions of translations and even language barriers, but I'm asking the original classic Hebrew, Greek scripture version.

If your answer is, "Well, I don't literally believe the earth was made in 6 days," then you're not really a Christian.

Well...that depends on your definition of literal.  I believe that the Bible is the the world of God but that each of the books/verses have to be put into the context of when they were written. 

Take your "six day" example...that came from Genesis.  So when it was written and transmitted thousands of years ago...the concept of the universe and billions and billions of years were not accessible to the common person.  It makes much more sense to make it a simple categorization of what happened and how the universe was formed.

I'm not sure what your position is here.

So you do believe God created what we know as the earth in 6 days or you rather believe in the science where it says it should have taken millions of years for earth to be formed?

It seems believing in the former is more making it simple for me.

I don't think it's important at all.  The key is that God made the universe...the exact mechanism of how it happened is irrelevant.  It's just a way to get bogged down on technicalities and inane detail. 

God created the Universe...He can do it 6 days or over billions of years.

You don't think it's important?  Do you think God wrote something that's not important?
You are either playing safe or not really believing The Bible as inerrant word of God.

No...I don't think it's something to worry about.  I think God wrote a lot of things in the Bible to give people three thousand years ago for them to understand.  Their understanding of the universe is far different than ours.  It matter not to my faith or belief in God whether the term 6 days is symbolic or literal.  It's unimportant.

Thanks for telling what I believe or do not believe.

The number is actually important (as every word is important) in the bible. "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." - Matthew 5:18

Is the number 3rd day when Jesus rose from the dead not important to you? From the beginning to end every word is very important and especially when we are talking about days and numbers since God must have put the exact number system any generation will understand. Please don't take it or mix down with what others or your own idea are saying especially if you call yourself a Christian.

If you feel offended. It was meant to be. Repent.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

The number is actually important (as every word is important) in the bible. "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." - Matthew 5:18

Is the number 3rd day when Jesus rose from the dead not important to you? From the beginning to end every word is very important and especially when we are talking about days and numbers since God must have put the exact number system any generation will understand. Please don't take it or mix down with what others or your own idea are saying especially if you call yourself a Christian.

If you feel offended. It was meant to be. Repent.

I don't feel offended.  My faith is not dependent upon your view of what you believe I should or should not be. 

I feel sad that you feel the need to tell me that my understanding of the Bible and numerology is somehow less than yours and thus you are then somehow spiritually entitled to tell me to repent.  But again, if it makes you feel spiritually superior, it's your thing.

 

[Mety]

@ Irvinecommuter,

My point is simple as this.
Church is where gospel is preached, where Christ is taught to people. Is that hard to understand?
Do you think Jesus hung out with sinners and drank wine just for the heck of it? He taught the Kingdom of God everywhere He went by teaching the scripture correctly. And He did so with people the religious leaders would not even look at as human beings. He always taught and commanded people to repent to everyone.

BTW, all those so many people Jesus hung out with and healed, do you know where they went when Jesus died? Yeah, they all turned their back on Him. Only about 120 people were left at the Pentecost you were talking about. That's pretty sad, isn't it?

I don't feel more superior than you or anyone. I'm just stating what's written in the Bible and usually that makes people mad. It's one thing that people invent things non-biblical and make it as biblical things as Jewish leaders were doing which Jesus condemned them for, but when I take The Bible as written, why do you see that so much wrong?

 

[Irvinecommuter]

@ Irvinecommuter,

My point is simple as this.
Church is where gospel is preached, where Christ is taught to people. Is that hard to understand?
Do you think Jesus hung out with sinners and drank wine just for the heck of it? He taught the Kingdom of God everywhere He went by teaching the scripture correctly. And He did so with people the religious leaders would not even look at as human beings. He always taught and commanded people to repent to everyone.

BTW, all those so many people Jesus hung out with and healed, do you know where they went when Jesus died? Yeah, they all turned their back on Him. Only about 120 people were left at the Pentecost you were talking about. That's pretty sad, isn't it?

I don't feel more superior than you or anyone. I'm just stating what's written in the Bible and usually that makes people mad. It's one thing that people invent things non-biblical and make it as biblical things as Jewish leaders were doing which Jesus condemned them for, but when I take The Bible as written, why do you see that so much wrong?

Church is where God and the Holy Spirit dwells...a church can be a huge group of people or just two people praying.  It could be a group of people confessing their sins and asking God for salvation.  It could be people sharing their struggles while other just be there in support.  At Pentacost, people could not even speak because the Holy Spirit filled the room.  Again...if you want to criticism specific teachings and churches, you are going to need to be specific.

No one is mad about what is stated in the Bible, at best nonbelievers are meh or humored by it.  People are annoyed about the preachy and holier-than-thou attitude.  Example would be your comment that I should repent because my understanding of the Bible is different than yours.

You know who else turned his back on Jesus?  Peter and most of the other disciples.  You know who consistently turned its back on God for thousands of years?  Israel...and yet God continues to allows us back into his good graces as long as we ask for forgiveness.  Failure and sin are in our nature as human being...it's the recognition that we all sin and need forgiveness that makes us Christians. 

Jesus definitely taught but he also just hung out with people at parties.  Just the mere fact that a rabbi would sit with the untouchable was message enough, no one needed to be bashed over the head with more preaching.  You know who is in Heaven with Jesus?  The thief that hung next to Jesus on the cross...not because he believed that God created the universe in 6 days or that the numerology in the Bible points to the 2nd coming of Christ...it's because he believed that Jesus was the Lord and the only pathway to salvation.  That's it. 

Two commandment...Love your God and Love your neighbor...everything else just complicates things.  To add more rules or guidelines or things to argue about is utterly pointless...it's basically what the Pharisees and Sadducees did with Jesus at every turn..ask him technical and legalistic questions in order to try and trap him.  Jesus told them that they are missing the point completely.

 

[Mety]

@ Irvinecommuter,

My point is simple as this.
Church is where gospel is preached, where Christ is taught to people. Is that hard to understand?
Do you think Jesus hung out with sinners and drank wine just for the heck of it? He taught the Kingdom of God everywhere He went by teaching the scripture correctly. And He did so with people the religious leaders would not even look at as human beings. He always taught and commanded people to repent to everyone.

BTW, all those so many people Jesus hung out with and healed, do you know where they went when Jesus died? Yeah, they all turned their back on Him. Only about 120 people were left at the Pentecost you were talking about. That's pretty sad, isn't it?

I don't feel more superior than you or anyone. I'm just stating what's written in the Bible and usually that makes people mad. It's one thing that people invent things non-biblical and make it as biblical things as Jewish leaders were doing which Jesus condemned them for, but when I take The Bible as written, why do you see that so much wrong?

Church is where God and the Holy Spirit dwells...a church can be a huge group of people or just two people praying.  It could be a group of people confessing their sins and asking God for salvation.  It could be people sharing their struggles while other just be there in support. 

No one is mad about what is stated in the Bible, at best nonbelievers are meh or humored by it.  People are annoyed about the preachy and holier-than-thou attitude.  Example would be your comment that I should repent because my understanding of the Bible is different than yours.

You know who else turned his back on Jesus?  Peter and most of the other disciples.  You know who consistently turned its back on God for thousands of years?  Israel...and yet God continues to allows us back into his good graces as long as we ask for forgiveness.  Failure and sin are in our nature as human being...it's the recognition that we all sin and need forgiveness that makes us Christians. 

Jesus definitely taught but [size=10pt]he also just hung out with people at parties[/size].  Just the mere fact that a rabbi would sit with the untouchable was message enough, no one needed to be bashed over the head with more preaching.  You know who is in Heaven with Jesus?  The thief that hung next to Jesus on the cross...not because he believed that God created the universe in 6 days or that the numerology in the Bible points to the 2nd coming of Christ...it's because he believed that Jesus was the Lord and the only pathway to salvation.  That's it. 

Two commandment...Love your God and Love your neighbor...everything else just complicates things.  To add more rules or guidelines or things to argue about is utterly pointless...it's basically what the Pharisees and Sadducees did with Jesus at every turn..ask him technical and legalistic questions in order to try and trap him.  Jesus told them that they are missing the point completely.

I agree with you the most, but those highlighted, I don't.

People are annoyed about the preachy and holier-than-thou attitude.
Yes, that could happen, but I think the main reason people get mad when they hear the gospel is because it hurts their sin. People don't want to be called a sinner and don't like their sins to be exposed as Jesus did to pretty much everyone He met.

[size=10pt]he also just hung out with people at parties[/size]
I don't think Jesus just hung out with no reasons.

everything else just complicates things
This is where I'm saying many Christians are not as they are supposed to. To love God is to KNOW God. How do you know God? By reading and studying His words. Is that a complicated thing or not really loving God? Yes, it's hard so the church should at least teach them while people are there. And also if you love someone, you would let them know about His words.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

People are annoyed about the preachy and holier-than-thou attitude.
Yes, that could happen, but I think the main reason people get mad when they hear the gospel is because it hurts their sin. People don't want to be called a sinner and don't like their sins to be exposed as Jesus did to pretty much everyone He met.

No...most people get mad because they are put down as people and the religious people use the sin as an excuse to put those people down.  It's the "splinter in your eye...log in mine" teaching.

Jesus did not expose most people's sin...he praised people for exhibition of faith but very seldomly commented on their sin.  To God, every human is a sinner and equally bad.  What Jesus did a lot of was slamming of pharisees who were constantly measuring people by their actions and alleged "holiness"  I would say that the "sin" that Jesus seemed to be most concerned about was spiritual pride...or at least self-proclaimed/self-indulgent spiritual pride. 

Jesus saw the person...not the sin.  Just like the father saw the prodigal son for the son he lost...not for the dirt

[size=10pt]he also just hung out with people at parties[/size]
I don't think Jesus just hung out with no reasons. 

I didn't say that he did it for no reason...I said that he was not preachy.

everything else just complicates things
This is where I'm saying many Christians are not as they are supposed to. To love God is to KNOW God. How do you know God? By reading and studying His words. Is that a complicated thing or not really loving God? Yes, it's hard so the church should at least teach them while people are there. And also if you love someone, you would let them know about His words.

What about people who can't read the Bible...what about the thief on the cross? 

Everyone is where they are supposed to be.  To assume otherwise would mean that God does not know what he is doing...being a Christian is messy and difficult.  God knows that and works within our sins and failures.Of course a Christian needs to grow and mature spiritually but to assume that everyone has the same level of growth at all times is ridiculous. 

Just like the shepherd leaves the 99 to find the one lost sheep, a church's job is to find the lost and bring them back into the fold.  A church should provide resources to allow its members to mature and grow but Sunday services are generally for the new believer and/or non believers.

Why do you assume that people are not being taught the word of God?  Again..you want to point to specific churches or pastors then we can have a discussion.  Painting in broadstrokes just makes everything dark.

 

[Mety]

@Irvinecommuter,

I think you are thinking from non-believer's perspective and trying to protect them from a person who might sound preachy. I understand that and I apologize if I sounded like one, but my main focus was from believer's, so-called-Christians' in America perspective per IHO's questions. You yourself might know some big mega church pastors are not really preaching the gospel but the "prosperity gospel" and damaging the Christianity. Believe or not, there are many churches that preach other things than the real gospel that might lead so many flocks to misunderstanding Jesus.

As for Jesus exposing people's sin other than Pharisees and Sadducees, He did expose for that is the only way for one to repent and turn back to God. Some people, He didn't have to for they just asked for forgiveness beforehand like Peter, but for some He had to like the Samaritan woman and Paul.

For people who can't read or don't have access to The Bible, I believe one can certainly come up with a conclusion that there must be God by just mesmerizing this world and the universe. One who seeks God WILL find God for that is the promise written and I'm 100% positive God WILL open the way for that person to know Jesus. Job, David and those Old Testament believers are the examples who lived before Jesus came.

As for us, who have FULL access to The Bible, we don't have any excuses. We are given more responsibility and must strive to know God more than anyone if you ask me. I fail too. I still sin also. But like you said, God keeps forgiving and forgiving, in fact, He doesn't remember my sin anymore even the ones I will commit later on. I'm sure you know all these. All I'm saying is if we think we are Christians and have the full access to know God more than anyone, then we need to focus on that more than anything especially in church. Fellowship, dinning and singing, we can do that also, but those are not the priorities. I think church exists for that purpose. You said churches are for non-believers. I believe there could be people who will come and know God in those churches as well, but just saying we need to be careful and not forget what the most important thing is. You may agree or disagree. I pray you will know God more everyday as well.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

@mety

I am only addressing your comment about churches and the style that you don't seem to like.  Obviously there are those who are leading flocks astray but I would say that God can use those charlatans to save people.  My view is that the Church's main job is to spread the Gospel and bring people into the fold.  Once they are brought in...each person/believer will progress on their own.  The Church should provided resources and structure to allow members to grow and mature but their primary goal is to find the lost.  Jesus said it himself...He did not come for the saved...he came for those who needed saving. 

Fellowship, dinning and singing, we can do that also, but those are not the priorities.

I fundamentally disagree...all those things are equally important...just as learning the word and praying etc...it's all about experiencing God and being a better Christian.  You can be brilliant in your Biblical knowledge but fail to fellowship with others or help those in need etc.  All of it is important...there is no one thing more important. 

Pharisees were all about the law..but forgot about the people.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

I didn't say there was no music in our church. I didn't say feel-good-sermons are bad.  I only said there has to be gospel preached, Christ has to be taught to people. If that's missing, people don't really need to gather in church. They can go somewhere else for those.

But you assume that is missing. How do you come to that conclusion? And there is no single purpose for church, it's many things. To you, it seems that it's to teach/preach about Jesus... and I agree, but that's not the only thing.

I do believe there is right or wrong in terms of these biblical doctrines. It's not like deciding if Delano is overpriced or not. This kind has to be clear cut and dry and that standard only has to be based on The Bible.

Again, how is that determination made? Using the Bible, I'm not sure you have made your case on those items.

What's wrong with a sermon that makes people feel good about their faith? Well, if you read especially the book of Acts, the disciples only felt good about their faith when they were persecuted, beaten because Jesus said they would be when they preached the gospel and they were. So that gave them confirmation about their faith and they were only happy. I didn't see any verse that says some kind of cool teacher gave a message and they all felt good about themselves.

Does there have to be a specific verse that says "Thou shalt deliver a sermon with humor."? Acts mentions the breaking of bread in church, if that doesn't happen is that not church?

I didn't say giving money is more christian. People these days tend to translate the word worship as music so I just wanted to clarify what it really means. As I've said, worship is walking daily with God. And giving money is actually more biblical than singing songs when we say worship. I'm saying money because it really all comes down to money vs. God believe or not. That's why Jesus said you can't serve both money and God. I'm not saying give money to church. You can if your heart desires, but I'm saying sacrifice what's most important to you for God. "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." - Matthew 6:21

So you are saying giving money is more "biblical"? As IrvineCommuter said, Psalms is in the Bible and that's pretty much all music. Is there a book of Donations in the Bible I don't know about? Ok... I'm being a bit facetious here but I assume this is your opinion and that's fine but I can think of many more things that are just as or more biblical than giving money.

I'm not in a perfect church. There is no perfect church until Jesus comes and I'm sure you know this as well. But again there has to be a standard we live by the book and that is The Holy Bible. We can't reach perfection and Jesus actually kept saying that when He walked on earth when spiritual leaders acted like they were. Only Jesus is perfect and it's great to learn that perfection through His words. It DOES NOT mean I'm perfect. Only He is and I'm glad God the Father sees Him when He sees me.

You still have yet to show me that all those things you dislike about some churches are not biblical. And I agree that there are many churches that don't seem to following scripture but that's an overall philosophy, not exactly tied to specific elements in their service. I just don't think that any of us are qualified to be that infallible judge of what is right or wrong.

Edit: Typo.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

... but Sunday services are generally for the new believer and/or non believers.

This is the only thing that you've said that I'm not totally in agreement with.

I feel Sunday service is for everyone, long time believers included.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

... but Sunday services are generally for the new believer and/or non believers.

This is the only thing that you've said that I'm not totally in agreement with.

I feel Sunday service is for everyone, long time believers included.

It is definitely for everyone but Sunday services are generally geared toward the casual believers....most churches don't go seriously deep in Sunday services.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

... but Sunday services are generally for the new believer and/or non believers.

This is the only thing that you've said that I'm not totally in agreement with.

I feel Sunday service is for everyone, long time believers included.

It is definitely for everyone but Sunday services are generally geared toward the casual believers....most churches don't go seriously deep in Sunday services.

Ahh... I see what you are saying.

I do think that the sermon can be both. But yes, for "deeper" discussion, that's usually what community groups are for (and even for new members).

That's something that is not mentioned here, church is not just a Sunday thing.

 

[panda]

For those of you 45% who voted yes i, am a christian, may i ask when you accepted Christ as your savior.

I first accepted Christ in my life when i was 12. I later recommited my life to Christ during my freshman year in college in Ann Arbor.

 

[Mety]

@mety

I am only addressing your comment about churches and the style that you don't seem to like.  Obviously there are those who are leading flocks astray but I would say that God can use those charlatans to save people.  My view is that the Church's main job is to spread the Gospel and bring people into the fold.  Once they are brought in...each person/believer will progress on their own.  The Church should provided resources and structure to allow members to grow and mature but their primary goal is to find the lost.  Jesus said it himself...He did not come for the saved...he came for those who needed saving. 

Fellowship, dinning and singing, we can do that also, but those are not the priorities.

I fundamentally disagree...all those things are equally important...just as learning the word and praying etc...it's all about experiencing God and being a better Christian.  You can be brilliant in your Biblical knowledge but fail to fellowship with others or help those in need etc.  All of it is important...there is no one thing more important. 

Pharisees were all about the law..but forgot about the people.

We disagree on that point then.

I do think knowing God is the priority and other things will follow naturally as I think if you really love God, you will love your neighbor as well. I think "seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you," verse is applied here. But you are right. God may use all circumstances and churches to bring people into the fold as well.

I actually believe Pharisees were too concerned about the people and forgot God. They were all about how they would be looked and seen great outside but inside was full of corruption. They sought after people's approvals and one of the ways were by robbing the poor which God continually warned them not to in the Old Testament. Jesus pointed out this throughout the whole 4 gospels and their only concern was they would lose their reputation and position to Jesus. Thus He said, ?Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's,? because they were doing the opposite, giving God their money only and their heart to people.

 

[Kenkoko]

Surprised to see more than 45% do believe in God and call themselves Christians in this forum.

If you are one of them, do you literally believe everything that's written in The Holy Bible (yes, 66 books of the Old and New Testaments) and it is a inerrant word of God? There could be arguments from different versions of translations and even language barriers, but I'm asking the original classic Hebrew, Greek scripture version.

If your answer is, "Well, I don't literally believe the earth was made in 6 days," then you're not really a Christian.

Personally, I feel organized religion is essentially a scam. But like many things in life, it still has its benefits.

45% actually seems right to me. 35% of Americans polled in 2018 are not religious.

This also has a lot to do with age.

Americans, between the age of 18-44, 45% are not religious.

In comparison, older Americans age 55-64 , 75% are religious.

I mean arguably society is a scam but there are benefits.

Not sure I see your point entirely. Society is necessary for Human beings as we are social animals. Organized Religion is not necessary and is essentially a scam.

I think the realization of that is at least in part why higher and higher percentage of the US population are identifying themselves as not religious. This is especially obvious when you look at the Millennials.

Only about half of Millennials are religious. Even in the religious group, 38% says religion is "very important". ( 29% somewhat important, 17% not too important, 16% not at all important)

Millennials also see religions play an entirely different role when it comes to guidance on right and wrong. 46% pick common sense, 23% picked religion.

44% of Millennials say the holy scripture is " not the word of God"
31% of Millennials say the holy scripture is " the word of God but not everything taken literally"
20% of Millennials say the holy scripture is " the word of God and should be taken literally"

This is a seismic shift from boomers and Gen Xs.

 

[Mety]

I didn't say there was no music in our church. I didn't say feel-good-sermons are bad.  I only said there has to be gospel preached, Christ has to be taught to people. If that's missing, people don't really need to gather in church. They can go somewhere else for those.

But you assume that is missing. How do you come to that conclusion? And there is no single purpose for church, it's many things. To you, it seems that it's to teach/preach about Jesus... and I agree, but that's not the only thing.

I do believe there is right or wrong in terms of these biblical doctrines. It's not like deciding if Delano is overpriced or not. This kind has to be clear cut and dry and that standard only has to be based on The Bible.

Again, how is that determination made? Using the Bible, I'm not sure you have made your case on those items.

What's wrong with a sermon that makes people feel good about their faith? Well, if you read especially the book of Acts, the disciples only felt good about their faith when they were persecuted, beaten because Jesus said they would be when they preached the gospel and they were. So that gave them confirmation about their faith and they were only happy. I didn't see any verse that says some kind of cool teacher gave a message and they all felt good about themselves.

Does there have to be a specific verse that says "Thou shalt deliver a sermon with humor."? Acts mentions the breaking of bread in church, if that doesn't happen is that not church?

I didn't say giving money is more christian. People these days tend to translate the word worship as music so I just wanted to clarify what it really means. As I've said, worship is walking daily with God. And giving money is actually more biblical than singing songs when we say worship. I'm saying money because it really all comes down to money vs. God believe or not. That's why Jesus said you can't serve both money and God. I'm not saying give money to church. You can if your heart desires, but I'm saying sacrifice what's most important to you for God. "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." - Matthew 6:21

So you are saying giving money is more "biblical"? As IrvineCommuter said, Psalms is in the Bible and that's pretty much all music. Is there a book of Donations in the Bible I don't know about? Ok... I'm being a bit facetious here but I assume this is your opinion and that's fine but I can think of many more things that are just as or more biblical than giving money.

I'm not in a perfect church. There is no perfect church until Jesus comes and I'm sure you know this as well. But again there has to be a standard we live by the book and that is The Holy Bible. We can't reach perfection and Jesus actually kept saying that when He walked on earth when spiritual leaders acted like they were. Only Jesus is perfect and it's great to learn that perfection through His words. It DOES NOT mean I'm perfect. Only He is and I'm glad God the Father sees Him when He sees me.

You still have yet to show me that all those things you dislike about some churches are not biblical. And I agree that there are many churches that don't seem to following scripture but that's an overall philosophy, not exactly tied to specific elements in their service. I just don't think that any of us are qualified to be that infallible judge of what is right or wrong.

Edit: Typo.

Since you seem like you want to get real technical, I will write on.

Like I've replied to Irvinecommuter, I think teaching the word of God has to be the priority in church. Yes, there are many other things in the Lord's day like singing hymns/praise, reading the word together, fellowships, dinning, etc. (I NEVER said those are bad. Please don't misunderstand.) Those are all elements of the Sunday gatherings. But if you have to choose one thing because of whatever reason (world is ending tomorrow/no one will see each other again/etc.), what would it be? I think proclaiming the gospel, which is really teaching who Christ is would be the only thing left. So that people would come to a conclusion whether to have faith or not. This is an extreme example, but just so that what's most important is rendered.

About the relation of giving money and worship, let me get real real deep here since it is required to explain. You've been warned. What is worship? It's recognizing God and responding to Him by sacrificing what's very WORTH to us. When God had Moses bring Israel out of Egypt, He gave them the instruction how to WORSHIP. Yes, all those many regulations and rules to sacrifice animals and so on. We all know those regulations could not be kept, but God did give them so because He wanted His people to be set apart different which really means "holy" from the rest of the nations. He wasn't going to punish them if they couldn't keep up. He wanted to see if their heart really desires to follow His words, not expecting the perfection of human will. Anyways, those giving "sacrifices" were what was originally called "worship." But since Jesus sacrificed Himself once for all, we don't have to do those ritual ceremonies anymore. The only thing we can do is having faith that Jesus completed the Law. Now the only sacrifice really left is the "will offering," which from the original laws was granted to Israel to do so when they had willing heart to give additionally. So we can still do so by giving money. It could be our time, food or clothes anything that's worth to us. But as you know, those all require money. So this is the originated context of worship. Now these days for some reason, Christians think worship is some kind of band playing music and singing songs about God up on stage. Please remember, I'm not saying that's not worship nor bad. Those are all beautiful for I was heavily involved in music ministry myself. But saying worship is music is not quite right. Worship is everything like you said, but more so daily walk with God, devoting ourselves to know Him more, be like Him more as we will be one day.

What I'm disappointed with churches in America or many developed countries today is that they seem to focus on people more than God. How to attract more people? How to have better programs so that more people will be pleased? I think having those are all fine, but if the main focus (Christ) is missing, is that really church? Church is a body of Christ, correct? If the body does not know what part of the body it is, isn't that considered a malfunctioned? Why do I assume that? Because I've seen that happen in many churches including mine. Thousands of people attending a big mega church and not knowing a thing about what Jesus did is pretty sad, isn't it? Maybe like Irvinecoummter said, they are baby Christians and will grow more spiritually. Why then are so many younger generations leaving church? They might have been in it because of the cool music and nice feeling sermons, but once the scripture touches the subject of their sin, what would be the reaction? Would they still come repent or would they get disappointed and leave? I think many already left so younger people are not really believing in God anymore these days. If they really want to know why people are leaving it's because of the lack of teaching about Christ at front and smart younger people are fed up with programs that are trying to catch up with the world's trend. Well, you might still say that's my assumption and maybe it is. But I believe if churches were to teach gospel only more younger people or even non-believers will come to find out more about Christ for that is what the real church is from outsider's perspective anyways. One thing to clarify just in case someone takes it to whole another discussion, I'm still at my church even though it's not perfect and pray that we are pleasing God more than people thus we can serve and love people correctly.

 

[fortune11]

the problem with hyper focus on growth is not just about churches - it is every part of society now

Look at the non profit sector today . Attend any board meeting. The way they talk about ?metrics? and ?ROI? etc you will quickly be lulled into thinking this is a Fortune 500 corporation. 

This is the problem when society has run out of new big ideas and all that is left is ?optimizing ?  and chasing efficiency gains . Organized Religion is no exception

Problem is what is the ultimate end goal after all this hyper optimizing ? 

 

[Mety]

"People are annoyed about the preachy and holier-than-thou attitude."
Yes, that could happen, but I think the main reason people get mad when they hear the gospel is because it hurts their sin. People don't want to be called a sinner and don't like their sins to be exposed as Jesus did to pretty much everyone He met.

No...most people get mad because they are put down as people and the religious people use the sin as an excuse to put those people down.  It's the "splinter in your eye...log in mine" teaching.

Jesus did not expose most people's sin...he praised people for exhibition of faith but very seldomly commented on their sin.  To God, every human is a sinner and equally bad.  What Jesus did a lot of was slamming of pharisees who were constantly measuring people by their actions and alleged "holiness"  I would say that the "sin" that Jesus seemed to be most concerned about was spiritual pride...or at least self-proclaimed/self-indulgent spiritual pride. 

Jesus saw the person...not the sin.  Just like the father saw the prodigal son for the son he lost...not for the dirt

I must address this for it might mislead people. You might already know, but just to make it true to how it is written in the Bible.

Jesus praising of someone's faith was mentioned only 2 times in the Bible. One with a Centurion and another one with a Syrophoenician woman. Both were Gentiles not Jews. Jesus praised, literal Greek translation would be, He said, "MEGA is your faith." You can look it up yourself, but just wanted to address correctly.

Mostly other times, Jesus had to rebuke His disciples or someone's lack of faith. Just count how many times He said, "O you of little faith." It does not mean He hated or looked down on them. He had to rebuke so that they would wake up. Jesus even rebuked Peter saying "Get behind me, Satan," when Peter tried to stop Jesus when He said He would die on the cross. Again, it doesn't mean Jesus didn't love Peter. He was literally rebuking Satan and saving Peter from falling into Satan's desire. There are so many other times He exposed people's sins for them to repent. Some did repent, but some left sadly like that rich young man.

Praising someone's faith is good, but truer love is shown when rebuking those you really love for them to not fall into Satan's lies. Please don't take my writing and think Jesus only praised someone twice. I'm sure He did so more, but The Bible is clearly telling us there were more rebuking, but it was definitely out of LOVE.

Jesus had to address sins so that people could be saved. If you carefully read the full story of the prodigal son story example, the prodigal son regretted his sins and repented of his sins so he was accepted again when he returned, but the older son was not accepted because of his un-willing heart to repent of his sin when he was not happy of his brother coming back home. Why was he not happy? Because return of the brother means he would have to share his father's will again. Not only the father's accepting the sinful son returning home was the climax but also the older son being arrogant was the punch line Jesus was saying in the faces of hypocritical Jewish leaders who loved money and people's praise more than God.