Surviving 2009

[quote author="CK" date=1250820915][quote author="SoCal78" date=1250820076]

Conversations on the housing market in Irvine and OC can be found on the Real Estate board in their respective categories. This is a Lifestyle board under the Off Topic / Water Cooler section.

</blockquote>


I dunno, SoCal. Around the watercooler at the office we talk about all sorts of lifestyle issues --- but Politics and Religion are never a part of those conversations. And on the off event someone less adept at office etiquette does bring up those topics, the crowd will scatter pretty quickly. There is a good reason for that. I've also thought of IHB as almost like a workplace --- or professional society --- the level of knowledge out here is that good. So along those lines --- just like at the workplace --- wedge topics tend to dillute the broader conversation.



Don't get me wrong and think I am saying those discussions don't have merit, its just that they have an appropriate time (and place).</blockquote>


You know I love ya, CK. It's sort of funny -- you see it as a corporate environment and I see it as a neighborhood on a normal day and the wild, wild west on a crazy day. The first time I first visited these forums, I was really expecting a "serious" site with strict & professional moderation that was highly "adept" at etiquette itself...and very little personality. What I found instead was quite a surprise, to say the least. In any case, I wouldn't consider it poor etiquette if someone came up to the water cooler at work and asked RC to help answer a theological question. I'm not sure who here you are saying is "less adept at etiquette". I think Cayci's first comment had plenty of etiquette, as did RC, and hey, I even think qwerty displayed some etiquette in what he had to say. If I were a moderator, I would take your idea into consideration although I wouldn't be sure how to implement or enforce it. Segregating topics would be difficult. But, hey, that's why I decided not to be a (full fledged) moderator... it's not my time or place. If it's me who you think lacked etiquette crossing professional boundaries, just know that I had enough etiquette to turn down a larger role here out of respect for the administration so there wouldn't be conflict. (I don't mean this post to sound rude because of course you are my friend who I respect and I don't mean any harm. You know that. I'll let you have the last word.)
 
[quote author="SoCal78" date=1250823899][quote author="CK" date=1250820915][quote author="SoCal78" date=1250820076]

Conversations on the housing market in Irvine and OC can be found on the Real Estate board in their respective categories. This is a Lifestyle board under the Off Topic / Water Cooler section.

</blockquote>


I dunno, SoCal. Around the watercooler at the office we talk about all sorts of lifestyle issues --- but Politics and Religion are never a part of those conversations. And on the off event someone less adept at office etiquette does bring up those topics, the crowd will scatter pretty quickly. There is a good reason for that. I've also thought of IHB as almost like a workplace --- or professional society --- the level of knowledge out here is that good. So along those lines --- just like at the workplace --- wedge topics tend to dillute the broader conversation.



Don't get me wrong and think I am saying those discussions don't have merit, its just that they have an appropriate time (and place).</blockquote>


You know I love ya, CK. It's sort of funny -- you see it as a corporate environment and I see it as a neighborhood on a normal day and the wild, wild west on a crazy day. The first time I first visited these forums, I was really expecting a "serious" site with strict & professional moderation that was highly "adept" at etiquette itself...and very little personality. What I found instead was quite a surprise, to say the least. In any case, I wouldn't consider it poor etiquette if someone came up to the water cooler at work and asked RC to help answer a theological question. I'm not sure who here you are saying is "less adept at etiquette". I think Cayci's first comment had plenty of etiquette, as did RC, and hey, I even think qwerty displayed some etiquette in what he had to say. If I were a moderator, I would take your idea into consideration although I wouldn't be sure how to implement or enforce it. Segregating topics would be difficult. But, hey, that's why I decided not to be a (full fledged) moderator... it's not my time or place. If it's me who you think lacked etiquette crossing professional boundaries, just know that I had enough etiquette to turn down a larger role here out of respect for the administration so there wouldn't be conflict. (I don't mean this post to sound rude because of course you are my friend who I respect and I don't mean any harm. You know that. I'll let you have the last word.)</blockquote>




Its me. I have no etiquette what so ever. **wipes lunch off the front of my shirt**
 
[quote author="SoCal78" date=1250823899] I'm not sure who here you are saying is "less adept at etiquette". </blockquote>


I was not saying anyone here on IHB lacked etiquette, and perhaps that is not even the defined etiquette here. My statement was more general that this discussion would have been inappropriate etiquette in the workplace, and since I think about my relationships here on the same lines as those at the workplace --- that's how I apply it. And that's not to say I don't consider people in the workplace --- or even my own neighborhood or the IHB for that matter to be my *friends* --- it's just that those very personal beliefs can tend to muddy up other aspects of the relationship, no matter how well intentioned the discussion. This is why I try to avoid those conversations.



In hindsight, I probably should have steered clear of this one as well....but if I can go to bed tonight with a post count of 808, I'll feel lucky. That's 806 I believe. Two more to go.
 
[quote author="Stuff It" date=1250820536][quote author="GraceOMalley" date=1250813165][quote author="Stuff It" date=1250811289]



No more preaching please. I am agnostic and as such this offends me.</blockquote>




Welcome to the death of free speech. If you dont like the thread... skip it. He has the right to discuss his beliefs, even if they are not yours. Would you say something similar to a Muslim? A Buddhist? Anyone else? Im doubtful.



Im pretty sure that the people that run these forums would really like IHB to be a place where people can ask/vent some hard questions/and or feelings and not get flamed for it. I think you're missing the point of RCs post, its not really about being a Christian or any other religion. Its about coping with pain, and the difficult times <strong>many </strong>are going through now. And asking for some support from his fellow human beings. Everyone gets through hard times in their own way.</blockquote>


If a buddhist/muslim was preaching then I would say the same thing - no doubt there. They may have the same opinion as me and feel that RC is also preaching.



I am a similar opinion as Graphrix - s**t happens. Nothing to do with religion



I am curious as to why people turn to religion - something missing in their lives? Though I dont want to hijack this thread - that has already been done.</blockquote>






So because you agree with Graph, his opinion can be stated but anyone who considers religion a part of their daily life cant? Double standard much? I find it fascinating that the people who so often claim to be open minded can be so intolerant of anyone whose opinion differs from theirs..I do not consider myself to be a religious person, faith is not a gift I have been blessed with. I think its sort of condescending to ask "if something is missing in their lives" Maybe something is missing in your life, or in mine.. how do you know? That being said, I try to be a good person, and I try to be understanding, tolerant and compassionate to people who are so obviously struggling. All I am really saying is be fair. You can skip any thread you dont like.



"I disagree with what you have to say but will fight to the death to protect your right to say it." - Voltaire
 
[quote author="CK" date=1250826210][quote author="SoCal78" date=1250823899] I'm not sure who here you are saying is "less adept at etiquette". </blockquote>


I was not saying anyone here on IHB lacked etiquette, and perhaps that is not even the defined etiquette here. My statement was more general that this discussion would have been inappropriate etiquette in the workplace, and since I think about my relationships here on the same lines as those at the workplace --- that's how I apply it. And that's not to say I don't consider people in the workplace --- or even my own neighborhood or the IHB for that matter to be my *friends* --- it's just that those very personal beliefs can tend to muddy up other aspects of the relationship, no matter how well intentioned the discussion. This is why I try to avoid those conversations.



In hindsight, I probably should have steered clear of this one as well....but if I can go to bed tonight with a post count of 808, I'll feel lucky. That's 806 I believe. Two more to go.</blockquote>


That is the classic symptom of an addict: first 808, 828, 838, 868, 869, 888 then 918, 928, and etc.
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1250827172]

That is the classic symptom of an addict: first 808, 828, 838, 868, 869, 888 then 918, 928, and etc.</blockquote>


Yeah, yeah...I'm just waiting for you to give an opinion on why Korean Air uses Tiffany blue as its color over in the other Airplane food thread, then I'm logging off. I have work to do today!
 
[quote author="GraceOMalley" date=1250826430][quote author="Stuff It" date=1250820536][quote author="GraceOMalley" date=1250813165][quote author="Stuff It" date=1250811289]



No more preaching please. I am agnostic and as such this offends me.</blockquote>




Welcome to the death of free speech. If you dont like the thread... skip it. He has the right to discuss his beliefs, even if they are not yours. Would you say something similar to a Muslim? A Buddhist? Anyone else? Im doubtful.



Im pretty sure that the people that run these forums would really like IHB to be a place where people can ask/vent some hard questions/and or feelings and not get flamed for it. I think you're missing the point of RCs post, its not really about being a Christian or any other religion. Its about coping with pain, and the difficult times <strong>many </strong>are going through now. And asking for some support from his fellow human beings. Everyone gets through hard times in their own way.</blockquote>


If a buddhist/muslim was preaching then I would say the same thing - no doubt there. They may have the same opinion as me and feel that RC is also preaching.



I am a similar opinion as Graphrix - s**t happens. Nothing to do with religion



I am curious as to why people turn to religion - something missing in their lives? Though I dont want to hijack this thread - that has already been done.</blockquote>






So because you agree with Graph, his opinion can be stated but anyone who considers religion a part of their daily life cant? Double standard much? I find it fascinating that the people who so often claim to be open minded can be so intolerant of anyone whose opinion differs from theirs..I do not consider myself to be a religious person, faith is not a gift I have been blessed with. I think its sort of condescending to ask "if something is missing in their lives" Maybe something is missing in your life, or in mine.. how do you know? That being said, I try to be a good person, and I try to be understanding, tolerant and compassionate to people who are so obviously struggling. All I am really saying is be fair. You can skip any thread you dont like.



"I disagree with what you have to say but will fight to the death to protect your right to say it." - Voltaire</blockquote>


It was an honest question - I would like to know why people turn to religion. It is not something I understand. I put out a suggestion and i expect people to come back with the reasons as to why they believe - I believe that is called discussion.



> So because you agree with Graph, his opinion can be stated but anyone who considers religion a part of their daily life cant?

Sorry - how did you manage to interpret my response that way? I am confused. If you want to twist my words - go ahead.



Please forgive me if I have upset your sensibilities - I just dont like being preached to.
 
[quote author="roundcorners" date=1250814619]

Graph... despite what it may appear, I really am trying to limit my IHB consumption for about an hour and a half a day! With the baby, wife and working! You brought up some really great points... and I do a lot of times want to address them. But they are conversations left up to those old guys you see at coffee shops that have all day to shoot the breeze. You make a LOT of points and I really want to address them all; but each topic is it's own can of worms, especially religion. I really try to walk the line of bringing in my faith without overstepping my boundaries. I started a hard topic and Cayci brought up the subject to faith and someone else brought up the question of, bad things happening to people. In my book, that is my best answer and I'll stick to it. I would like to address each point, at a time. But, you gotta think... a lot, I mean a lot of really smart, academics, philosophers, professors, professionals have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and they are not crazy. They are all around us, you have your world-view, and we have ours. It's how we make sense of this crazy world. With every point you brought up, we also have very logical explanations of how things work. <strong>And they are ALL logically, rationally, philosophically, ethically & scientifically consistent</strong>. There is Truth, but at the end of the day it still comes down to believing in something you don't see (faith); but something deep down inside you tells you that it's real; the one HUGE impediment to a lot of seekers, and I had a tough time with this one is, whose life is it? Am I the captain of my life? or is God? Do I just do what I want? or do I let God? Then it comes down to, am I going to do what makes me happy or am I going to ask God what to do in critical or trite situations. Most times, we can't let go control, and turn our life over to our maker and therefore we reject God. It?s not an easy thing, this walk, it?s a daily struggle; and it?s not easy giving up control; but it?s what we chose to do. If you have just one or two direct topics or questions; I?ll try to give a direct answer? thanks?</blockquote>


Im pretty sure the bold part is not accurate. God created the world in seven days? I think science says different. Science disproves a lot of beliefs. In the past people used to prey for rain to the rain gods - im pretty sure there are no rain gods. I guess the question i have and others have is why do you belief in something that we can not see or touch? It seems irrational (to me at least, and probably a good amount of other people) that you would believe in something that no one can see or touch and let that belief tell you how to live your life. The only principle i live my life by is : Do what makes you happy.
 
Let me raise a question. If you find a fine watch on the street then do you ask yourself whether this precise piece of instrument was evolved from evolution by fusing together random minerals, rocks and metal over millions of years or someone created it. Apply the same logic for a human body with function that is a million ways more complex than a watch with intellect, self wound healing, and reproduction. Could there be a creator? or human simply evolved from a cell?
 
[quote author="qwerty" date=1250837016]Im pretty sure the bold part is not accurate. God created the world in seven days? I think science says different. Science disproves a lot of beliefs. In the past people used to prey for rain to the rain gods - im pretty sure there are no rain gods. I guess the question i have and others have is why do you belief in something that we can not see or touch? It seems irrational (to me at least, and probably a good amount of other people) that you would believe in something that no one can see or touch and let that belief tell you how to live your life. The only principle i live my life by is : Do what makes you happy.</blockquote>
Just some random thoughts:



1. When comparing the Bible to science, the Bible shoudn't be taken so literally.

2. Gravity is something we can't see or touch... yet we believe it exists.

3. If evolution is how life started, than Earth can't be the only planet with life, so the chances that extra-terrestial life exists should be quite high right? Yet no one has proof that aliens do exist... so is it just faith that science has that they do?

4. Do the majority of people on earth believe in a higher power (not exactly religion or [G|g]od(s)) or is it a minority?

5. To the people who don't believe in an afterlife, what happens when we die?



This is the reason why I would use Panda's time machine to go back to the beginning of time... just so I can show them the screenshot of how life truly began.
 
RC,



It seems like a script for a TV drama. That's a lot of negativity surrounding you, your friends and love ones. Like many have said, these challenges in life will most likely make you stronger in the end. You need to pick up the strength to fight through the trials and I know you are and know where to find your support.



I am not really trying to get into the topic of religion and I respect those that don't believe in God or religion. I just hope the atheists would respect those that do believe in God and the freedom of speech. If you are curious why people would believe in something that they cannot feel or touch and let that belief guide your life, I think you heard of a book call BIBLE. It has the answers you are looking for. If you want to live your life by your own standard, free will, I just hope everyone is intelligent enough not to follow the footsteps of Michael Jackson. Peace.
 
[quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1250855755][quote author="qwerty" date=1250837016]Im pretty sure the bold part is not accurate. God created the world in seven days? I think science says different. Science disproves a lot of beliefs. In the past people used to prey for rain to the rain gods - im pretty sure there are no rain gods. I guess the question i have and others have is why do you belief in something that we can not see or touch? It seems irrational (to me at least, and probably a good amount of other people) that you would believe in something that no one can see or touch and let that belief tell you how to live your life. The only principle i live my life by is : Do what makes you happy.</blockquote>
Just some random thoughts:



1. When comparing the Bible to science, the Bible shoudn't be taken so literally.<strong>i dont even know what a bible looks like</strong>

2. Gravity is something we can't see or touch... yet we believe it exists. <strong>You cant see it or touch it but gravitational pull exists, this has been proven</strong>

3. If evolution is how life started, than Earth can't be the only planet with life, so the chances that extra-terrestial life exists should be quite high right? Yet no one has proof that aliens do exist... so is it just faith that science has that they do? <strong>Im not sure what science says on the matter of ETs, but my guess is they exist since we exist, but cant say for sure since i havent seen one.</strong>

4. Do the majority of people on earth believe in a higher power (not exactly religion or [G|g]od(s)) or is it a minority? <strong>im guessing the majority are believers, but as more people like myself have kids this will probably even out at some point</strong>

5. To the people who don't believe in an afterlife, what happens when we die? <strong>the same thing that happens to people that belief in afterlife, absolutely nothing. your just dead. if two people die together in an accident and one is a believer and one is not, doe the believer go somewhere? while the non believer doesnt go anywhere? my guess is they both go the same place. six feet under.</strong>

This is the reason why I would use Panda's time machine to go back to the beginning of time... just so I can show them the screenshot of how life truly began.</blockquote>
 
[quote author="Look4house" date=1250858723]RC,



I just hope everyone is intelligent enough not to follow the footsteps of Michael Jackson. Peace.</blockquote>


FYI

Michael Jackson was brought up in a very strict home that was dominated with a faith known as Jehovah's Witnesses.

His father preached one thing but practiced another.
 
[quote author="qwerty" date=1250859663][quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1250855755][quote author="qwerty" date=1250837016]Im pretty sure the bold part is not accurate. God created the world in seven days? I think science says different. Science disproves a lot of beliefs. In the past people used to prey for rain to the rain gods - im pretty sure there are no rain gods. I guess the question i have and others have is why do you belief in something that we can not see or touch? It seems irrational (to me at least, and probably a good amount of other people) that you would believe in something that no one can see or touch and let that belief tell you how to live your life. The only principle i live my life by is : Do what makes you happy.</blockquote>
Just some random thoughts:



1. When comparing the Bible to science, the Bible shoudn't be taken so literally.<strong>i dont even know what a bible looks like</strong>

2. Gravity is something we can't see or touch... yet we believe it exists. <strong>You cant see it or touch it but gravitational pull exists, this has been proven</strong>

3. If evolution is how life started, than Earth can't be the only planet with life, so the chances that extra-terrestial life exists should be quite high right? Yet no one has proof that aliens do exist... so is it just faith that science has that they do? <strong>Im not sure what science says on the matter of ETs, but my guess is they exist since we exist, but cant say for sure since i havent seen one.</strong>

4. Do the majority of people on earth believe in a higher power (not exactly religion or [G|g]od(s)) or is it a minority? <strong>im guessing the majority are believers, but as more people like myself have kids this will probably even out at some point</strong>

5. To the people who don't believe in an afterlife, what happens when we die? <strong>the same thing that happens to people that belief in afterlife, absolutely nothing. your just dead. if two people die together in an accident and one is a believer and one is not, doe the believer go somewhere? while the non believer doesnt go anywhere? my guess is they both go the same place. six feet under.</strong>

This is the reason why I would use Panda's time machine to go back to the beginning of time... just so I can show them the screenshot of how life truly began.</blockquote></blockquote>
Hehe... I didn't expect you to answer the questions... just posting out loud:



1. You're the one who brought up God creating the world in seven days... I was just saying that I don't think the Bible is a technical document that should be taken literally. Like many historical tomes... there is some leeway in interpretation.



2. To non-scientists (which is the majority of people I believe), how has gravity been proven? By some scientific jargon and theories? Do you not see the irony there?



3. Again... this is another ironic situation... based on science... life is able to happen from nothing. Therefore, there must be other places where nothing turned into life, yet there is no evidence of such existence. So... science also depends on faith. Again... just sayin'.



4. Do you really think it will "even out"? Will the "believers" stop having kids in order to support your theory?



5. This is a fair response. So when you're dead... you're dead. Humans by nature are incentive-oriented... if there is no goal or payoff to living a good life... since both the murdering rapist and the charitable do-gooder will both end up in the same place... what is the point? You said your philosophy is simple... "Do what makes you happy"... so is it then okay for those child molesters to do what makes them happy? I think the big question here is where does morality come from? Is it societal? Was [G|g]ods(s) invented by man in order to give humans a moral compass? Or is it innate for us to do what is considered "right"? Nature vs. nurture... and now my head is spinning.



Sorry... I probably made this thread worse. I'm not trying to argue for any side... just trying to understand some of the responses posted here. I'll go back to being the silly-nilly 3-car garage lover.
 
[quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1250900774]



2. To non-scientists (which is the majority of people I believe), how has gravity been proven? By some scientific jargon and theories? Do you not see the irony there?

</blockquote>


Wow do I hope you are kidding. If not, come back the next time your kid falls down and scrapes their knee, and try again.



I cannot see UV rays. But my sunburn tells me they exist.



I cannot see cold. But my shivering tells me it exists.



Things/states/conditions that exist are not all physical matter that are meant to be seen. Besides that, you shouldn't base you knowledge of the world around the limitations of the human eye.



As someone who practiced Christianity for 20 years I have an extremely low tolerance for the "Well, you can't see yours either. So there!", willfully ignorant kind of arguments from Christians. It's the kind of thing that makes me want to sit my parents down and force them to watch the Discovery and History channels for a month straight.



You can't prove it. That's why it's called faith.
 
[quote author="caycifish" date=1250902189][quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1250900774]



2. To non-scientists (which is the majority of people I believe), how has gravity been proven? By some scientific jargon and theories? Do you not see the irony there?

</blockquote>


Wow do I hope you are kidding. If not, come back the next time your kid falls down and scrapes their knee, and try again.



I cannot see UV rays. But my sunburn tells me they exist.



I cannot see cold. But my shivering tells me it exists.



Things/states/conditions that exist are not all physical matter that are meant to be seen. Besides that, you shouldn't base you knowledge of the world around the limitations of the human eye.



As someone who practiced Christianity for 20 years I have an extremely low tolerance for the "Well, you can't see yours either. So there!", willfully ignorant kind of arguments from Christians. It's the kind of thing that makes me want to sit my parents down and force them to watch the Discovery and History channels for a month straight.



You can't prove it. That's why it's called faith.</blockquote>
You're missing my point.



When my kid falls down, I don't explain what gravity is... they just know it happens. To them... gravity and gawd (to use the graph word) are the same thing.



Much of the details of science and technology are not known to people yet we rely on it every day. Does that sound familiar? It smells like "faith" to me.



So when science says "You can't touch or smell it so how do you know it exists?"... isn't that a bit hypocritical? Even more so when it comes to the existence of alien life.



As much as you believe that kind of argument is ignorant... the coin has both sides. I don't think it's fair for science to attack religion on the basis of faith when much of science does rely on things we can't touch or see (and not just literally).



And how does science explain morality? Why will one person give his time and money to others while another will use an icicle gun to destroy the life of someone else and his entire family?



What I'm getting at is to the average person... both science and religion... are leaps of "faith".



And as you put it yourself:

<blockquote>

Things/states/conditions that exist are not all physical matter that are meant to be seen. Besides that, you shouldn't base you knowledge of the world around the limitations of the human eye.

</blockquote>
Isn't that a religious person's stance?
 
[quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1250907975][quote author="caycifish" date=1250902189][quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1250900774]



2. To non-scientists (which is the majority of people I believe), how has gravity been proven? By some scientific jargon and theories? Do you not see the irony there?

</blockquote>


Wow do I hope you are kidding. If not, come back the next time your kid falls down and scrapes their knee, and try again.



I cannot see UV rays. But my sunburn tells me they exist.



I cannot see cold. But my shivering tells me it exists.



Things/states/conditions that exist are not all physical matter that are meant to be seen. Besides that, you shouldn't base you knowledge of the world around the limitations of the human eye.



As someone who practiced Christianity for 20 years I have an extremely low tolerance for the "Well, you can't see yours either. So there!", willfully ignorant kind of arguments from Christians. It's the kind of thing that makes me want to sit my parents down and force them to watch the Discovery and History channels for a month straight.



You can't prove it. That's why it's called faith.</blockquote>
You're missing my point.



When my kid falls down, I don't explain what gravity is... they just know it happens. To them... gravity and gawd (to use the graph word) are the same thing.



Much of the details of science and technology are not known to people yet we rely on it every day. Does that sound familiar? It smells like "faith" to me.



So when science says "You can't touch or smell it so how do you know it exists?"... isn't that a bit hypocritical? Even more so when it comes to the existence of alien life.



As much as you believe that kind of argument is ignorant... the coin has both sides. I don't think it's fair for science to attack religion on the basis of faith when much of science does rely on things we can't touch or see (and not just literally).



And how does science explain morality? Why will one person give his time and money to others while another will use an icicle gun to destroy the life of someone else and his entire family?



What I'm getting at is to the average person... both science and religion... are leaps of "faith".



And as you put it yourself:

<blockquote>

Things/states/conditions that exist are not all physical matter that are meant to be seen. Besides that, you shouldn't base you knowledge of the world around the limitations of the human eye.

</blockquote>
Isn't that a religious person's stance?</blockquote>






per wiki:



"A leap of faith, in its most commonly used meaning, is the act of believing in something without, or in spite of, empirical evidence. It is an act commonly associated with religious belief as many religions consider faith to be an essential element of piety."





I am not sure I understand how you are classifying science as a "leap of faith." To me, science is the exact opposite.
 
[quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1250907975][quote author="caycifish" date=1250902189][quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1250900774]



2. To non-scientists (which is the majority of people I believe), how has gravity been proven? By some scientific jargon and theories? Do you not see the irony there?

</blockquote>


Wow do I hope you are kidding. If not, come back the next time your kid falls down and scrapes their knee, and try again.



I cannot see UV rays. But my sunburn tells me they exist.



I cannot see cold. But my shivering tells me it exists.



Things/states/conditions that exist are not all physical matter that are meant to be seen. Besides that, you shouldn't base you knowledge of the world around the limitations of the human eye.



As someone who practiced Christianity for 20 years I have an extremely low tolerance for the "Well, you can't see yours either. So there!", willfully ignorant kind of arguments from Christians. It's the kind of thing that makes me want to sit my parents down and force them to watch the Discovery and History channels for a month straight.



You can't prove it. That's why it's called faith.</blockquote>
You're missing my point.



When my kid falls down, I don't explain what gravity is... they just know it happens. To them... gravity and gawd (to use the graph word) are the same thing.



Much of the details of science and technology are not known to people yet we rely on it every day. Does that sound familiar? It smells like "faith" to me.



So when science says "You can't touch or smell it so how do you know it exists?"... isn't that a bit hypocritical? Even more so when it comes to the existence of alien life.



As much as you believe that kind of argument is ignorant... the coin has both sides. I don't think it's fair for science to attack religion on the basis of faith when much of science does rely on things we can't touch or see (and not just literally).



And how does science explain morality? Why will one person give his time and money to others while another will use an icicle gun to destroy the life of someone else and his entire family?



What I'm getting at is to the average person... both science and religion... are leaps of "faith".



And as you put it yourself:

<blockquote>

Things/states/conditions that exist are not all physical matter that are meant to be seen. Besides that, you shouldn't base you knowledge of the world around the limitations of the human eye.

</blockquote>
Isn't that a religious person's stance?</blockquote>


You may want to look up what the scientific method is and what defines "science" in general. The scientific body of knowledge is our BEST explanation of the world surrounding us and it is predictive in nature as well as testable. Since experiments are inherently required to support a scientific theory, we can metaphorically "touch and see" all claims made in a theory.



I don't know what you claim we cannot see or touch. I'm even more puzzled at your statement that "Much of the details of science and technology are not known".
 
Life is unpredictable. I'm frustrated by all the people who expect us to finish college, get a good job, get married, and have a family by a certain age. Yes, that would be ideal, but is it reasonable to expect all these things of everyone? For instance, my girlfriend lives in a very nice condo, but she is upset because she doesn't own a house with a yard. Why can't she accept that fact that we're not in the best financial situation right now?
 
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