irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
I need to create a charger station business and tap into that guvment cheese.
ICE or EV?
- Thread starter irvinehomeowner
- Start date
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
Loan me $1b. I'll get that morekilowatts network up fast.
I'll start with the leases that Musk bailed out on.
I'll start with the leases that Musk bailed out on.
morekaos
Well-known member
…and Mercedes, Volkswagen and Renault quietly admit defeat and re-calibrate sales to do what a company should do…sell things people want…
European Car Makers Hitting the Brakes on Electric Vehicles
Mercedes-Benz announced to investors in March of this year that it is going back on its pledge to sell only fully electric cars by 2030. Instead, investors were told that the company plans to continue to make gasoline-powered cars well into the next decade. Fully electric cars and hybrids will account for only up to half of its sales by 2030.
Volkswagen group confirmed in a recent press conference that it had already started manufacturing cars using a multi-energy integrated approach by producing the same car in a range of versions: gas-powered engined, plug-in electric, and hybrids.
Renault—have been less public about their partial abandonment of the EV project. Ford recently revealed that they’re planning for a new model combustion engine (albeit hybrid) in 2027, and Renault has launched a division named ‘Horse’ where it will produce combustion engines for markets outside Europe—possibly without having the main company name associated with it.
https://insideevs.com/news/709767/mercedes-benz-delays-ev-plans/
European Car Makers Hitting the Brakes on Electric Vehicles
Mercedes-Benz announced to investors in March of this year that it is going back on its pledge to sell only fully electric cars by 2030. Instead, investors were told that the company plans to continue to make gasoline-powered cars well into the next decade. Fully electric cars and hybrids will account for only up to half of its sales by 2030.
Volkswagen group confirmed in a recent press conference that it had already started manufacturing cars using a multi-energy integrated approach by producing the same car in a range of versions: gas-powered engined, plug-in electric, and hybrids.
Renault—have been less public about their partial abandonment of the EV project. Ford recently revealed that they’re planning for a new model combustion engine (albeit hybrid) in 2027, and Renault has launched a division named ‘Horse’ where it will produce combustion engines for markets outside Europe—possibly without having the main company name associated with it.
https://insideevs.com/news/709767/mercedes-benz-delays-ev-plans/
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
Your definition of "defeat" is strange... just like "doomed".
None of these automakers are giving up on EVs and going back to full ICE, they are just scaling back on full EV... which I've never said would happen. I actually support choice if you recall that I am against the mandates that force ICE out of the picture.
Free market... let the best auto technology capture the audience. EV adoption will continue to grow, especially with many makers pivoting towards lower priced models.
None of these automakers are giving up on EVs and going back to full ICE, they are just scaling back on full EV... which I've never said would happen. I actually support choice if you recall that I am against the mandates that force ICE out of the picture.
Free market... let the best auto technology capture the audience. EV adoption will continue to grow, especially with many makers pivoting towards lower priced models.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
Honda ramping up EV efforts to the tune of $65b:
electrek.co
Honda plots $65 billion investment to build seven new EVs as it looks for a comeback
Honda is done standing by while rivals like Tesla and BYD steal market share. To stay competitive, Honda is doubling...
electrek.co
morekaos
Well-known member
You’ve been lied to (including Porche)…as I have said…Give corporations unreal goals and when they can’t deliver. They cheat and lie…
Electric Cars Are Driven the Least While Costing the Most
The most and least expensive EVs and hybrids per 1,000 miles driven per year
· Electric cars are driven 20 percent less than gasoline cars; combined with their higher prices they cost 63.6 percent more for every 1,000 miles driven per year
· Hybrids and plug-in hybrids are also driven less than gasoline models, but only by 2.7 and 4.8 percent, respectively, making their cost-per-1,000 miles per year much closer
· The average electric car costs $5,108 for every 1,000 miles per year it’s driven compared to $3,056 for a hybrid car, $3,123 for a gasoline car, and $4,351 for a plug-in hybrid
· The Porsche Taycan EV is the most expensive alternative-fuel car to drive, costing over $22,000 for every 1,000 miles it’s driven per year, followed by the Porsche Cayenne plug-in hybrid at $14,681 and the Tesla Model S at $11,623
· The Honda Insight Hybrid is the least expensive alternative fuel car to drive, costing $1,463 per 1,000 miles per year, followed by the Hyundai Ioniq Hybrid at $1,813 and Toyota Corolla Hybrid at $1,857
https://www.iseecars.com/most-driven-evs-study
Electric Cars Are Driven the Least While Costing the Most
The most and least expensive EVs and hybrids per 1,000 miles driven per year
· Electric cars are driven 20 percent less than gasoline cars; combined with their higher prices they cost 63.6 percent more for every 1,000 miles driven per year
· Hybrids and plug-in hybrids are also driven less than gasoline models, but only by 2.7 and 4.8 percent, respectively, making their cost-per-1,000 miles per year much closer
· The average electric car costs $5,108 for every 1,000 miles per year it’s driven compared to $3,056 for a hybrid car, $3,123 for a gasoline car, and $4,351 for a plug-in hybrid
· The Porsche Taycan EV is the most expensive alternative-fuel car to drive, costing over $22,000 for every 1,000 miles it’s driven per year, followed by the Porsche Cayenne plug-in hybrid at $14,681 and the Tesla Model S at $11,623
· The Honda Insight Hybrid is the least expensive alternative fuel car to drive, costing $1,463 per 1,000 miles per year, followed by the Hyundai Ioniq Hybrid at $1,813 and Toyota Corolla Hybrid at $1,857
https://www.iseecars.com/most-driven-evs-study
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
This formula doesn't work if you lease. Incentives, rebates and lower operating costs tilts the favor to EVs.
Meanwhile:
Volvo's cheap EX30 aiming for China's market:
electrek.co
GM focusing on lower cost EVs:
Even morekaos doesn't mention the $100k EVs anymore (Tesla's most expensive EVs now start under $80k).
Meanwhile:
Volvo's cheap EX30 aiming for China's market:
Volvo reveals $28,000 EX30 starting price in China as low-cost BYD rival
The cheapest Volvo EV so far was officially launched in China over the weekend. Volvo launched the EX30 in China...
electrek.co
GM focusing on lower cost EVs:
Even morekaos doesn't mention the $100k EVs anymore (Tesla's most expensive EVs now start under $80k).
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
I thought there were no EVs under $100k?
Finally an admission of ignorance.
Finally an admission of ignorance.
morekaos
Well-known member
….and where did I ever say that? quotes Please.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
You have too many posts where you kept saying EVs are not affordable and are in the $80k to over $100k range.
You couldn't even find the cheap Model 3 on the Tesla website.
And again, I agree that some EVs are way overpriced but just like luxury ICE vehicles, people are going to buy them. So many Cybertrucks in Irvine but then there also Lambos, Ferraris, Alfas and Porsches (ahem) too.
So you are wrong again... people will buy EVs (or ICE) at any price.
You couldn't even find the cheap Model 3 on the Tesla website.
And again, I agree that some EVs are way overpriced but just like luxury ICE vehicles, people are going to buy them. So many Cybertrucks in Irvine but then there also Lambos, Ferraris, Alfas and Porsches (ahem) too.
So you are wrong again... people will buy EVs (or ICE) at any price.
morekaos
Well-known member
“not affordable” is very different from “nothing under $100,000.” if you’re going to try and quote me. Quote accurately please. They are still unaffordable and significantly more expensive than an ice counterpart. And as I pointed out, the only reason they’re getting cheaper is because nobody is buying them and that’s not a good trend from EV manufacturers. 
Doomed.
Doomed.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
You are wrong again.
There are many EVs that can be leased for less than a comparable ICE vehicles.
They can also be purchased for a similarly equipped ICE vehicle.
Your original contention in many posts were that EVs were $80k or higher and not affordable. Then you tried to pivot and say that Teslas were the non-affordable ones not realizing that the their cheapest Model 3 has been out since 2017, in fact, you didn't think they had fallen below $100k until 2023, so here is an accurate quote from you:
I understand, you mostly just say stuff to poke without fact checking or verifying. You've always contended EVs are unaffordable but today that statement is even more untrue and with automakers pivoting for lower priced EVs, that will become even more apparent.
You can continue to think EVs are overpriced and I agree some are... but many are priced low enough to be affordable and for the technology you get, is of very high value.
There are many EVs that can be leased for less than a comparable ICE vehicles.
They can also be purchased for a similarly equipped ICE vehicle.
Your original contention in many posts were that EVs were $80k or higher and not affordable. Then you tried to pivot and say that Teslas were the non-affordable ones not realizing that the their cheapest Model 3 has been out since 2017, in fact, you didn't think they had fallen below $100k until 2023, so here is an accurate quote from you:
bad masks for the most part proved ineffective in prevention anyway. Common sense was proven true in the end. Only recently have teslas fallen below the $100k mark and still have never reached the Everyman $30k that was promised. Probably never will. Both are proven fails in the end even with all the initial hype. But for those who never questioned the tripe they were fed, they suffered through useless masking for nothing and are now stuck with a $100k toy worth significantly less
I understand, you mostly just say stuff to poke without fact checking or verifying. You've always contended EVs are unaffordable but today that statement is even more untrue and with automakers pivoting for lower priced EVs, that will become even more apparent.
You can continue to think EVs are overpriced and I agree some are... but many are priced low enough to be affordable and for the technology you get, is of very high value.
sgip
Well-known member
If it's a low price, there are "cheap" EV's:
The problem however is - "Do I want to spend $30k on a car with a 200 mile range limit, and a half hour to recharge" versus "Do I want to spend $30k on a Toyota Rav4 with a 400 mile range, with readily available refueling options, lower insurance costs, and on balance, a lower carbon impact than an EV? (truth be told...). A better choice for those who really need to show they are "saving the environment".... would be to purchase a hybrid vehicle rather than pure electric - all of which have features and costs on par with an ICE vehicle.
Once we see longer range EV's that hit an all important sub $30k price point there will be wider adoption. Until then, it seems mostly that medically inadvisable levels of "Hopeum" are driving EV sales.
The problem however is - "Do I want to spend $30k on a car with a 200 mile range limit, and a half hour to recharge" versus "Do I want to spend $30k on a Toyota Rav4 with a 400 mile range, with readily available refueling options, lower insurance costs, and on balance, a lower carbon impact than an EV? (truth be told...). A better choice for those who really need to show they are "saving the environment".... would be to purchase a hybrid vehicle rather than pure electric - all of which have features and costs on par with an ICE vehicle.
Once we see longer range EV's that hit an all important sub $30k price point there will be wider adoption. Until then, it seems mostly that medically inadvisable levels of "Hopeum" are driving EV sales.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
Actually, hybrids are trading at a premium and the break even costs is longer than some people keep their cars.
Many also have the cons of both gas and battery cars in regards to climate.