Homes with good aesthetic.

[quote author="bkshopr" date=1244870551][quote author="reason" date=1244868028][quote author="bkshopr" date=1244865106]

<strong>El Camino and Walnut Village were treasured like Northpark and Woodbury and what do you think went wrong?</strong> Great school and safety in the community and even closer to the Chinese stores and restaurants. Most homes even have the IHO gimme gimme garages. I will do an extensive similarity analysis for production master planned communities historically have only a 40 years lifespan before abandonment. Stanton, Buena Park, Westminster, FV, Garden Grove, Anaheim, Walnut Village and El Camino were once the shining beacons of beautiful living in the new suburbs of OC.</blockquote>


Could it be the ethnicity make up of the neighborhood have changed, Bk? You've often mentioned that a certain ethnic group will tend to spray stucco onto a classic Craftman. :)</blockquote>


Sometimes and especially when Blacks and Hispanics move into the neighborhood. The silent rule is to move away. This is true and I am not being a racist. Look at Inglewood and Santa Ana.



When home elevations were developed with trendy elements, form and materials deviating from the pictures I posted the neighborhood will eventually become undesirable. It is the mullets of home style that date the architecture. Both of the posted pictures in EC and TR clearly said <strong>1970</strong></blockquote>


BK, pretty bold statement...better put your helmet on for the replies. But it sounds like you are saying it is not race in of itself that brings down a neighborhood but maybe the changing racial makeup of an area can be a marker also for significant scocioeconomic changes in the area. Sometimes new populations moving into an area may have significantly different levels of education and income from those already in the area. The reasons for such a flux for a community could be a marker for slower growth of higher paying jobs, declining property values, and increasing crime. It could also be a marker that the new immigrants have attained a higher level of income, education, and sociopolitical clout to displace those already living in said community.
 
[quote author="IACRenter" date=1244872149][quote author="bkshopr" date=1244870551][quote author="reason" date=1244868028][quote author="bkshopr" date=1244865106]

<strong>El Camino and Walnut Village were treasured like Northpark and Woodbury and what do you think went wrong?</strong> Great school and safety in the community and even closer to the Chinese stores and restaurants. Most homes even have the IHO gimme gimme garages. I will do an extensive similarity analysis for production master planned communities historically have only a 40 years lifespan before abandonment. Stanton, Buena Park, Westminster, FV, Garden Grove, Anaheim, Walnut Village and El Camino were once the shining beacons of beautiful living in the new suburbs of OC.</blockquote>


Could it be the ethnicity make up of the neighborhood have changed, Bk? You've often mentioned that a certain ethnic group will tend to spray stucco onto a classic Craftman. :)</blockquote>


Sometimes and especially when Blacks and Hispanics move into the neighborhood. The silent rule is to move away. This is true and I am not being a racist. Look at Inglewood and Santa Ana.



When home elevations were developed with trendy elements, form and materials deviating from the pictures I posted the neighborhood will eventually become undesirable. It is the mullets of home style that date the architecture. Both of the posted pictures in EC and TR clearly said <strong>1970</strong></blockquote>


BK, pretty bold statement...better put your helmet on for the replies. But it sounds like you are saying it is not race in of itself that brings down a neighborhood but maybe the changing racial makeup of an area can be a marker also for significant scocioeconomic changes in the area. Sometimes new populations moving into an area may have significantly different levels of education and income from those already in the area. The reasons for such a flux for a community could be a marker for slower growth of higher paying jobs, declining property values, and increasing crime. It could also be a marker that the new immigrants have attained a higher level of income, education, and sociopolitical clout to displace those already living in said community.</blockquote>


Then explain to me why 2 neighborhoods Northpark and El Camino less than a 1/4 mile apart one is considered a slum of Irvine and the other is very desirable. Both have the proximity to high paying jobs as well as having similar demographic percentages of predominantly White and Asians. What is ironic is the slum side has bigger lots, more single story homes, and more garages. It is a lot more complex than just race, income and educational level that cause the decline of a neighborhood. I think it has to do with the confident in believing in the brand and pride of owning something rare and desirable. As most new home community novelty wears off and no longer getting the brand reinforcement owners begin to look around for something better and trendier. Long term ownership is the key for neighborhood pride while frequent turn overs are very bad for neighborhood confidence.
 
Bk - slightly off topic here, but just wanted to say that I totally appreciate the non-frontal-garage design but as a parent with little kids, I struggle with finding a suitable solution whereas as cul-de-sac is desirable for (relative) safe and spontaneous play but you can not find that with an alley-loaded garage, at least not anywhere I have looked here in Irvine. There are some nice alley-loaded garage homes in Woodbury but the kids could step right out into on-coming through traffic. What is a parent supposed to do? As you have mentioned a long time ago, it is easier when the rear garage is detached and there is yard space but when there is only a narrow strip on one side of the house, it is useless. Anyway, that is the biggest problem I encountered when trying to select a suitable home for small kids but still wanting nice curb appeal. It made it a tough choice and ultimately the cul-de-sac wins, unfortunately.
 
[quote author="SoCal78" date=1244874525]Bk - slightly off topic here, but just wanted to say that I totally appreciate the non-frontal-garage design but as a parent with little kids, I struggle with finding a suitable solution whereas as cul-de-sac is desirable for (relative) safe and spontaneous play but you can not find that with an alley-loaded garage, at least not anywhere I have looked here in Irvine. There are some nice alley-loaded garage homes in Woodbury but the kids could step right out into on-coming through traffic. What is a parent supposed to do? As you have mentioned a long time ago, it is easier when the rear garage is detached and there is yard space but when there is only a narrow strip on one side of the house, it is useless. Anyway, that is the biggest problem I encountered when trying to select a suitable home for small kids but still wanting nice curb appeal. It made it a tough choice and ultimately the cul-de-sac wins, unfortunately.</blockquote>


Young families purchase a home base on safety and function. The short dead end streets are very desirable for peace and quiet. Kids are the reason why families buy a home and move to a bigger home. When you become a grandma then look for a home like the ones I posted. Alley loaded garages are Ok but many do not have a yard between the home and garage unless it is a BK prototype. The best is when the garage is at the back without an alley.
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1244869547]

3 car garage in El Camino.



IHO's favorite double door.

IHO's favorite double story high ceiling.

IHO's favorite driveways.

Combine the garages he would be in heaven.



Houses like this in the neighborhood are the reason why good neighbors start to move out or rent out their homes instead of living there. The people living there are very happy that they got their 3 car garage, double door, high ceilings and driveway.</blockquote>
Hold. You're bustin' the cheats again... this is not an original El Camino model. Don't the majority of homes in that area and Walnut Village have only 2-car garages and single story homes?



And only a neighborhood w/out an HOA would let something that doesn't match be built.



Again... the difference is demographics, age, HOAs and prices of homes. It's like how Floral Park is in Santa Ana right?
 
[quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1244878464][quote author="bkshopr" date=1244869547]

3 car garage in El Camino.



IHO's favorite double door.

IHO's favorite double story high ceiling.

IHO's favorite driveways.

Combine the garages he would be in heaven.



Houses like this in the neighborhood are the reason why good neighbors start to move out or rent out their homes instead of living there. The people living there are very happy that they got their 3 car garage, double door, high ceilings and driveway.</blockquote>
Hold. You're bustin' the cheats again... this is not an original El Camino model. Don't the majority of homes in that area and Walnut Village have only 2-car garages and single story homes?



And only a neighborhood w/out an HOA would let something that doesn't match be built.



Again... the difference is demographics, age, HOAs and prices of homes. It's like how Floral Park is in Santa Ana right?</blockquote>


Only a few homes have 3 car garages in EC.



The demographic in El Camino is the same percentages as the new communities having mostly white and Asians.



Agewise in El Camino some owners are older but recent owners age wise are similar to Woodbury. The same is for Floral Park older folks and 30 somethings families with young kids.



No HOA in EC. People like you wanted a Gimme Gimme 3 car garage and have the land to do it with they will pursue remodels. New communities with HOA do not need to worry about bad taste remodel because a bird house is not a huge detriment to the community.



El Camino could not sustain price level and dropped the most in Irvine because it is a freakin ugly dated neighborhood and could not comp itself closely (-10%) from new homes. What do you think of the newer neighborhoods would be like 30 years from now? Westpark is already dated with pink ticky tacky boxes.



The rest of Santa Ana is just ugly with apartments from the 70's mixed in with a few existing nicer homes but owners moved away long ago to Irvine. Floral Park was harder to get to and less desirable for developers being right next to the freeway. It was spared during the 60's for re- zoning.



Floral Park has no HOA and it is still desirable because of aesthetic. Wealthy and influential people chose to live there. Neighborhood pride is very high and homeowners are proud to own a rare house not typically found in OC. Many homes are $1mil+ but just one street over in West Floral Park the homes ($-40%) due to all homes were based on a single style of ranch style architecture and lacks other architectural style variation. In some way the result is perceived as cookie cutter eventhough no 2 ranch home are alike but the visible garages began to dictate the rhythm of repetition. The visible garages eventhough less than 40% frontage still compromised the street scene. As a result the West Floral Park aesthetic could not hold prices as well as Floral Park.



Pedigree is the key for all famous neighborhoods in all of Southern CA



Floral Park is the midst of a Hispanic Ghetto still hold $1 mil for the nicer homes. Can you imagine if it is located in Irvine and what that price would be?
 
[quote author="freedomCM" date=1244879892]yep, that EC is a recent persian palace conversion. iirc, it was elsewhere in the forums</blockquote>


Even Floral Park has its version of Persian palace remodel. Ostentatious Ceasar Palace of decorating is a part of their Culture. Unfortunately the folks living next door are upset and will be moving soon. They placed grecian columns at their double door entry and their garages.
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1244873747][quote author="IACRenter" date=1244872149][quote author="bkshopr" date=1244870551][quote author="reason" date=1244868028][quote author="bkshopr" date=1244865106]

<strong>El Camino and Walnut Village were treasured like Northpark and Woodbury and what do you think went wrong?</strong> Great school and safety in the community and even closer to the Chinese stores and restaurants. Most homes even have the IHO gimme gimme garages. I will do an extensive similarity analysis for production master planned communities historically have only a 40 years lifespan before abandonment. Stanton, Buena Park, Westminster, FV, Garden Grove, Anaheim, Walnut Village and El Camino were once the shining beacons of beautiful living in the new suburbs of OC.</blockquote>


Could it be the ethnicity make up of the neighborhood have changed, Bk? You've often mentioned that a certain ethnic group will tend to spray stucco onto a classic Craftman. :)</blockquote>


Sometimes and especially when Blacks and Hispanics move into the neighborhood. The silent rule is to move away. This is true and I am not being a racist. Look at Inglewood and Santa Ana.



When home elevations were developed with trendy elements, form and materials deviating from the pictures I posted the neighborhood will eventually become undesirable. It is the mullets of home style that date the architecture. Both of the posted pictures in EC and TR clearly said <strong>1970</strong></blockquote>


BK, pretty bold statement...better put your helmet on for the replies. But it sounds like you are saying it is not race in of itself that brings down a neighborhood but maybe the changing racial makeup of an area can be a marker also for significant scocioeconomic changes in the area. Sometimes new populations moving into an area may have significantly different levels of education and income from those already in the area. The reasons for such a flux for a community could be a marker for slower growth of higher paying jobs, declining property values, and increasing crime. It could also be a marker that the new immigrants have attained a higher level of income, education, and sociopolitical clout to displace those already living in said community.</blockquote>


Then explain to me why 2 neighborhoods Northpark and El Camino less than a 1/4 mile apart one is considered a slum of Irvine and the other is very desirable. Both have the proximity to high paying jobs as well as having similar demographic percentages of predominantly White and Asians. What is ironic is the slum side has bigger lots, more single story homes, and more garages. It is a lot more complex than just race, income and educational level that cause the decline of a neighborhood. I think it has to do with the confident in believing in the brand and pride of owning something rare and desirable. As most new home community novelty wears off and no longer getting the brand reinforcement owners begin to look around for something better and trendier. Long term ownership is the key for neighborhood pride while frequent turn overs are very bad for neighborhood confidence.</blockquote>


I agree it is not just race, money, or even education. Desirability and long term success of a community is a multifactorial formula. Pride of ownership is clearly one additional factor. I am not sure how you can design that into a community. HOA's are an attempt to force the concept on others. Ideally it would be an individual's responsibility but we all know how that often turns out.
 
The driving factor is age. Not so much the age of the owners, but age of the neighborhood which means the neighborhood have undergone an maturation and eventual decline. It's the same story for the revitalized neighborhoods that have gentrified. Their success the first time around results in their eventual decline. West Irving is a future ghetto. In fact, the design has it built right in. The future is the past. Look at El Camino, why is it the low end of Irvine? Simply, age.



Age isn't easy on a neighborhood. In particular, for the newer neighborhoods in Irvine, age is going to be exceptionally harsh. The problem comes from the target demographics of a new neighborhood. When first built, the neighborhoods are dominated by young working families. As the children grow, the more successful families tend to upgrade and move on. They are replaced with additional families, typically matching the original demographic. As the childern mature, they eventually reach high school. With high school, comes the death nell of suburban neighborhoods. More cars. I love cars, but cars massively increase the feeling of density in a neighborhood.



In Irvine, the problem of cars is compounded. The older neighborhoods, like El Camino, feel it. That's in-spite of greater available curbside parking and three car garages. The newer neighborhoods are already choking on cars and majority of bedrooms have little children in them. When they reach high school, they'll want cars. Then they'll want a parking spot. The streets are already full...



Eventually, the children go on to college, some homes become empty nesters, some have temporary respite from one car wielding late teen. With many families, it's becoming increasingly common for the adult college educated to return home until they truly get on their feet. The empty nesters start to downsize or simply hang out. The adult children move out and look for someplace 'different'. This starts the double whammy of the decline. The original demographic no longer really fits. The neighborhood is 'old'. The schools, once bright and shiny while still 'good' aren't perceived as the best. The neighborhood feels dense, think of the cars jammed around the streets and the not so new cars everywhere. Walking into the houses, those that are available, you see deferred maintenance and dated finishings. It's no longer the premium market. It's El Camino to today's Woodbury...



At the same time, the aging original empty nesters tend towards retirement, fixed incomes replace their high earnings. Maintenance is more likely deferred either for monetary or health reasons. The decline picks up steam. Some homes are kept and turned into rentals. Others are sold and go to a newer, if slightly not as well off demographic. Since the schools may have been consolidated or are worn, non-child households take greater hold. The economic version of the white flight begins. The economic flight, like the 50s white flight, becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.



The turn-around, like many that have, depend on a couple factors. Good aesthetic, like Floral Park, or the substitution effect where proximity to jobs, affordability, or declining density drive the resurgence. Most new Irvine neighborhoods lack the good aesthetic. Some slight segments of the neighborhood might have some, but the vast majority of the neighborhood was and is mass produced high density living. A format that does not age and mature well. Irvine will be dependent on job proximity to generated a resurgence. Unfortunately, technology, work place dynamics and a shift in expectations is steadily going to reduce the importance of the primary physical office park.
 
[quote author="No_Such_Reality" date=1245062355]The driving factor is age. Not so much the age of the owners, but age of the neighborhood which means the neighborhood have undergone an maturation and eventual decline. It's the same story for the revitalized neighborhoods that have gentrified. Their success the first time around results in their eventual decline. West Irving is a future ghetto. In fact, the design has it built right in. The future is the past. Look at El Camino, why is it the low end of Irvine? Simply, age.



Age isn't easy on a neighborhood. In particular, for the newer neighborhoods in Irvine, age is going to be exceptionally harsh. The problem comes from the target demographics of a new neighborhood. When first built, the neighborhoods are dominated by young working families. As the children grow, the more successful families tend to upgrade and move on. They are replaced with additional families, typically matching the original demographic. As the childern mature, they eventually reach high school. With high school, comes the death nell of suburban neighborhoods. More cars. I love cars, but cars massively increase the feeling of density in a neighborhood.



In Irvine, the problem of cars is compounded. The older neighborhoods, like El Camino, feel it. That's in-spite of greater available curbside parking and three car garages. The newer neighborhoods are already choking on cars and majority of bedrooms have little children in them. When they reach high school, they'll want cars. Then they'll want a parking spot. The streets are already full...



Eventually, the children go on to college, some homes become empty nesters, some have temporary respite from one car wielding late teen. With many families, it's becoming increasingly common for the adult college educated to return home until they truly get on their feet. The empty nesters start to downsize or simply hang out. The adult children move out and look for someplace 'different'. This starts the double whammy of the decline. The original demographic no longer really fits. The neighborhood is 'old'. The schools, once bright and shiny while still 'good' aren't perceived as the best. The neighborhood feels dense, think of the cars jammed around the streets and the not so new cars everywhere. Walking into the houses, those that are available, you see deferred maintenance and dated finishings. It's no longer the premium market. It's El Camino to today's Woodbury...



At the same time, the aging original empty nesters tend towards retirement, fixed incomes replace their high earnings. Maintenance is more likely deferred either for monetary or health reasons. The decline picks up steam. Some homes are kept and turned into rentals. Others are sold and go to a newer, if slightly not as well off demographic. Since the schools may have been consolidated or are worn, non-child households take greater hold. The economic version of the white flight begins. The economic flight, like the 50s white flight, becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.



The turn-around, like many that have, depend on a couple factors. Good aesthetic, like Floral Park, or the substitution effect where proximity to jobs, affordability, or declining density drive the resurgence. Most new Irvine neighborhoods lack the good aesthetic. Some slight segments of the neighborhood might have some, but the vast majority of the neighborhood was and is mass produced high density living. A format that does not age and mature well. Irvine will be dependent on job proximity to generated a resurgence. Unfortunately, technology, work place dynamics and a shift in expectations is steadily going to reduce the importance of the primary physical office park.</blockquote>
Great analysis. Makes a lot of sense in my eyes. IAC short term focus on squeezing as many dollars per arce which resulted in more and more dense communities will translate into faster deterioration of the communities. The areas like Floral Park, Hancock Park, Pasadena, and other older areas have going for them is that the areas aren't cookie cutter and each home has an identity and old school charm. What's so charming packing in 32 residential units per acre of attached condos? Or 16 residential units per acre of detached condos?
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1244876977][quote author="SoCal78" date=1244874525]Bk - slightly off topic here, but just wanted to say that I totally appreciate the non-frontal-garage design but as a parent with little kids, I struggle with finding a suitable solution whereas as cul-de-sac is desirable for (relative) safe and spontaneous play but you can not find that with an alley-loaded garage, at least not anywhere I have looked here in Irvine. There are some nice alley-loaded garage homes in Woodbury but the kids could step right out into on-coming through traffic. What is a parent supposed to do? As you have mentioned a long time ago, it is easier when the rear garage is detached and there is yard space but when there is only a narrow strip on one side of the house, it is useless. Anyway, that is the biggest problem I encountered when trying to select a suitable home for small kids but still wanting nice curb appeal. It made it a tough choice and ultimately the cul-de-sac wins, unfortunately.</blockquote>


Young families purchase a home base on safety and function. The short dead end streets are very desirable for peace and quiet. Kids are the reason why families buy a home and move to a bigger home. When you become a grandma then look for a home like the ones I posted. Alley loaded garages are Ok but many do not have a yard between the home and garage unless it is a BK prototype. The best is when the garage is at the back without an alley.</blockquote>


There's one serious problem with a rear garage-you have a very long driveway, potentially taking up a large portion of the lot. I believe that, in Irvine, no reasonably affordable property has a lot big enough for a rear garage.
 
NSR's analysis is by far the best description on one of the most important of many factors regarding neighborhood erosion. Neighborhood impression is vital in gaining admiration of visitors that in turn give the owners an incentive to improve their properties. Homes along the Rose Parade line up are extremely well maintained due to media coverage every year. Neighborhoods with home tours are another incentive for property enhancements. New suburbs are under HOA rules and many properties are restricted from front yard enhancements.



To certain extent it is a good things to eliminate distasteful front yard on the other hand it heighten the detrimental effect of cookie cutter landscaping installed by the builders thus taking away the only thing that can give the homes some unique identity. I rarely see owners having the motivation or pride to work in their front yard garden.



Neighborhoods like San Marino, Hancock Park and Floral Park I see owners labor over their front yard enhancing both identity and curb appeal. Visitors are often impressed by the curb appeal of endless varieties of front yard landscape. It also sow a seed in the visitors mind someday with the right condition they also would like to live in these places.



The neighborhood peer pressure of having a great front yard is one of the many steps in maintaining a good positive image that HOA and CC&R in the long run is proven counter productive and do not give the owners the freedom to have their signature expressed in front yard curb appeal. Even in Floral Park the owners with bad taste are inspired by some of the successes of good examples. What is productive is a set of architectural guideline and architect members on a neighborhood review board for all future renovations as seen in San Marino, Hancock Park and Palos Verdes.



The issue with seeing cars all over the neighborhoods is a perceived sign of a low class neighborhood. The element of a ghettos is over crowded apartments lacking sufficient garage parking therefore forces many cars on the streets. The first impression is very important. 2 cars on driveways and cars packed along curbside are hints to the visitors that several families live in the same house (consistent with most observation of ghetto).



Visitors often draw the most negative impression. In the case of San Marino, Hancock parks and Floral Parks cars are rarely seen along curbside. The single car width drive although is a nightmare to back out from the rear garage but it is ideal for shielding 5 to 6 cars out of sight along the side of the house. There is obvious inconvenience for cars parked in series but everyone learns to cooperate, negotiate and improve family interaction knowing who's leaving the house.



When I took first time guests to El Camino their impression was negative due to the excessive cars seen in the neighborhoods and especially the man caves full of junks when some doors were left opened. Although the items were expensive such as a high end mattress and expensive arcade machines. To most visitors they are junks affiliated with imagery of a ghetto.



I elaborated two factors of many that erode neighborhoods: Vehicular impression and the lack of identity curb appeal.
 
[quote author="Geotpf" date=1245104035][quote author="bkshopr" date=1244876977][quote author="SoCal78" date=1244874525]Bk - slightly off topic here, but just wanted to say that I totally appreciate the non-frontal-garage design but as a parent with little kids, I struggle with finding a suitable solution whereas as cul-de-sac is desirable for (relative) safe and spontaneous play but you can not find that with an alley-loaded garage, at least not anywhere I have looked here in Irvine. There are some nice alley-loaded garage homes in Woodbury but the kids could step right out into on-coming through traffic. What is a parent supposed to do? As you have mentioned a long time ago, it is easier when the rear garage is detached and there is yard space but when there is only a narrow strip on one side of the house, it is useless. Anyway, that is the biggest problem I encountered when trying to select a suitable home for small kids but still wanting nice curb appeal. It made it a tough choice and ultimately the cul-de-sac wins, unfortunately.</blockquote>


Young families purchase a home base on safety and function. The short dead end streets are very desirable for peace and quiet. Kids are the reason why families buy a home and move to a bigger home. When you become a grandma then look for a home like the ones I posted. Alley loaded garages are Ok but many do not have a yard between the home and garage unless it is a BK prototype. The best is when the garage is at the back without an alley.</blockquote>


There's one serious problem with a rear garage-you have a very long driveway, potentially taking up a large portion of the lot. I believe that, in Irvine, no reasonably affordable property has a lot big enough for a rear garage.</blockquote>


Mahogany and Mayfield in Northwood Pointe are two examples of projects with garages at the rear. The street acene is very attractive. They are much denser than older neighborhoods none the less are timeless.
 
I have an acquantence in Palos Verdes who had difficulty selling his house because the Art Jury did not like his new wall. Buyers buying a house house in an art jury controlled neighborhood will demand art jury clearance. He was forced to credit the buyer several thousand $, the amount the Art Jury estimated for demolishing the wall and remediation. In my experience, the PV Art Jury is far pickier than any HOA I've ever dealt with and like an HOA, an art jury can cloud the title on your house and force you to spend thousands to satisfy their demands.
 
[quote author="High Gravity" date=1245110760]I have an acquantence in Palos Verdes who had difficulty selling his house because the Art Jury did not like his new wall. Buyers buying a house house in an art jury controlled neighborhood will demand art jury clearance. He was forced to credit the buyer several thousand $, the amount the Art Jury estimated for demolishing the wall and remediation. In my experience, the PV Art Jury is far pickier than any HOA I've ever dealt with and like an HOA, an art jury can cloud the title on your house and force you to spend thousands to satisfy their demands.</blockquote>


That is actually a good things. Easy transaction is not an element of a good neighborhood. Art Jury is the only way to protect physical property while HOA is only to curbing bad behaviors.
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1245110650][quote author="Geotpf" date=1245104035]There's one serious problem with a rear garage-you have a very long driveway, potentially taking up a large portion of the lot. I believe that, in Irvine, no reasonably affordable property has a lot big enough for a rear garage.</blockquote>


Mahogany and Mayfield in Northwood Pointe are two examples of projects with garages at the rear. The street acene is very attractive. They are much denser than older neighborhoods none the less are timeless.</blockquote>
More recently, the Brentwood models in Northpark also use rear-garage design. I don't know if the curbside appearance is bk-approved but the layout is pretty functional even for Mr. 3CWG.



<a href="http://floorplans.irvinerealtorsite.com/Northpark/Brentwood/BrentwoodA2700.JPG">http://floorplans.irvinerealtorsite.com/Northpark/Brentwood/BrentwoodA2700.JPG</a>
 
[quote author="irvine_home_owner" date=1245111770][quote author="bkshopr" date=1245110650][quote author="Geotpf" date=1245104035]There's one serious problem with a rear garage-you have a very long driveway, potentially taking up a large portion of the lot. I believe that, in Irvine, no reasonably affordable property has a lot big enough for a rear garage.</blockquote>


Mahogany and Mayfield in Northwood Pointe are two examples of projects with garages at the rear. The street acene is very attractive. They are much denser than older neighborhoods none the less are timeless.</blockquote>
More recently, the Brentwood models in Northpark also use rear-garage design. I don't know if the curbside appearance is bk-approved but the layout is pretty functional even for Mr. 3CWG.



<a href="http://floorplans.irvinerealtorsite.com/Northpark/Brentwood/BrentwoodA2700.JPG">http://floorplans.irvinerealtorsite.com/Northpark/Brentwood/BrentwoodA2700.JPG</a></blockquote>
<img src="http://www.garyfallis.com/img/floorplans/npfp/Brentwood_p1.jpg" alt="" />

http://mlsimages.movoto.com/203/010/S577510_0.jpg



<img src="http://mlsimages.movoto.com/203/010/S577510_16.jpg" alt="" />



<img src="http://mlsimages.movoto.com/203/010/S577510_3.jpg" alt="" />



http://mlsimages.movoto.com/203/010/S577510_1.jpg



Not all garages at the rear are good looking houses.
 
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