God?

[Mety]

So according to your definition of persecution, if all are being treated unfair, then it cannot be called persecution? When Romans destroyed Israel in 70 AD, they also killed Christians. Since they were all getting killed, we can't say Christians were getting persecuted then, right?

BTW, I'm with you that we're not in real persecution of the believers yet as the Bible talks about in Revelation and when Jesus warned of it. I just think it's like a preview of it or it could be the beginning of it.

No...my definition of persecution is:

hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs.

There is zero evidence of this with respect to the COVID order.

So I think it would be good to reserve terms like "persecution" until it actually happens. 

Meanwhile, are you similarly outraged by white nationalist, anti-Muslim, anti-Asian, and/or other racist/bigot language that seems to be freely used by certain groups and/or politicians?

In my opinion, I think you're all over the place. You were saying about some theological stuff to prove that we can't call what's happening now a "persecution", then moved on to equality, then some google definition, and now you're bringing other issues with politics. You just keep saying no to whatever I say and keep bringing some political issues. I'll say the same thing again - Let's see how it turns out.

To answer your question, I believe Christians are NOT to be a hateful group toward any ethnicities. Many white suprematists are calling themselves Christians, but I really think they are not and such claim upsets me. If you're asking if we're having some racial issues in this country today, I think that's a total different topic at some other threads. You can do that with eyephone or morekaos. My main discussion in this thread has always been a concern for Church.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

So according to your definition of persecution, if all are being treated unfair, then it cannot be called persecution? When Romans destroyed Israel in 70 AD, they also killed Christians. Since they were all getting killed, we can't say Christians were getting persecuted then, right?

BTW, I'm with you that we're not in real persecution of the believers yet as the Bible talks about in Revelation and when Jesus warned of it. I just think it's like a preview of it or it could be the beginning of it.

No...my definition of persecution is:

hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs.

There is zero evidence of this with respect to the COVID order.

So I think it would be good to reserve terms like "persecution" until it actually happens. 

Meanwhile, are you similarly outraged by white nationalist, anti-Muslim, anti-Asian, and/or other racist/bigot language that seems to be freely used by certain groups and/or politicians?

In my opinion, I think you're all over the place. You were saying about some theological stuff to prove that we can't call what's happening now a "persecution", then moved on to equality, then some google definition, and now you're bringing other issues with politics. You just keep saying no to whatever I say and keep bringing some political issues. I'll say the same thing again - Let's see how it turns out.

To answer your question, I believe Christians are NOT to be a hateful group toward any ethnicities. Many white suprematists are calling themselves Christians, but I really think they are not and such claim upsets me. If you're asking if we're having some racial issues in this country today, I think that's a total different topic at some other threads. You can do that with eyephone or morekaos. My main discussion in this thread has always been a concern for Church.

Not all over the place...you are the one making connections that do not exist and then confused as to why people are talking about it.

I will try and make it simple:  There is nothing about the COVID-19 restrictions that are specifically targeting the church or Christians.  The restrictions are imposed upon non-religious and religious entities equally and without intent to attack one group or another.  You may feel that it has more an impact on the church because you are more affected by it but that does mean that anyone or the government is persecuting Christianity or the church. 

Equality does not mean persecution.

There is nothing political about anything I said...you are the one looking for the political angle.  I mentioned the issues regarding racism and bigotry because that is true persecution...not a perceived one.  As a Christian, I am much more concerned about those things that some potential for persecution.

BTW...if you are looking for the end times, the persecution will come so it seems pointless look out for it.  Besides, if you are an end-timer...the rapture will come before the persecution so doesn't really matter.

 

[Mety]

Haha. OK. Maybe I'm the one who keep not understanding you correctly. I'm sure what you're saying is super clear and simple to some others.

But one thing is clear. I think you and I have different religions. Hopefully we both believe Jesus as our LORD, but it seems like we almost don't agree on anything scripture-wise. I know I'm the un-popular one though.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Umm... maybe you need to know that home worship is not allowed in CA if you're together with non-immediate family members. I mean the marriage services are being held through Zoom now days. What restriction? If I'm wrong, let me know. I would be glad to know I'm the one who's wrong here.

Wait...so you are saying that if the state is stopping you from getting together with 5 or 6 other Christians at your home, had a meal, sang worship songs, and listening to a sermon or discussing the Bible?  I would love to see that restriction.

All you're saying is fine. I'm with you that you need personal worship with God and you should not do so in public to boast yourself like hypocrites. That link you sent with Muslim gatherings, that seems more like hypocritical meeting to me (yeah yeah, point fingers at me). What I'm saying is not about "showing" your worship to others. What I'm saying is we worship "together." And by doing it together, we proclaim we're God's people even if we speak nothing. That is God's design and it's unfortunate that we got too comfortable with just my individual relationship with my God and that's it.

How many people do you need to be with to demonstrate that you are "doing it together"?  10, 20, 150?  Again, why do we need to congregate in mass to "proclaim" that we are God's people?  Like somehow defiance of health restriction makes that point? 

Again... this is not allowed by the state.

What is not allowed?  Small group gathering or outdoor service?  Pretty sure those are fine.

Unless you get rid of your old self, you can't be saved. The Bible is clear on that. Good luck with doing it yourself if you believe like that. BTW, God not only forgives but forgets all your sins if you really have Jesus as your LORD. You got all the message. I pray you make the right decision.

No...salvation doesn't require getting rid of one's old self...that is a lifetime effort that even Paul said that he cannot do.  It is the trying that matters...we cannot attain "perfection" in our fallen state...just strive for it through Christ.

Salvation takes confession...that does not require anything more than a confession and a decision.  Just like the criminal on the cross next to Jesus got saved without any ceremony...salvation comes from a decision....a decision that God leaves to us since the fall of Adam.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Haha. OK. Maybe I'm the one who keep not understanding you correctly. I'm sure what you're saying is super clear and simple to some others.

But one thing is clear. I think you and I have different religions. Hopefully we both believe Jesus as our LORD, but it seems like we almost don't agree on anything scripture-wise. I know I'm the un-popular one though.

Popularity has nothing to do with it..if you want to have a Biblical discussion, using things like I believe or this is the way is not super convincing. 

My guess is that you are of the camp that signs and works are evidence of one's salvation and faith...I don't believe that to be the case.  Well...at least not for salvation.  Faith without works is dead...but works mean different things to different people.

I certainly ascribe to the need to have fellowship and group worship but I am not sure why you believe that this has to be done publicly or with your entire church group...Paul was by himself in prison for year...early churches met in one's homes and in small groups. 

 

[irvinehomeowner]

IC is the guy on the basketball court that you hate to see on the other team... but when he's on your team... it's so good.

(so who is GS gonna get with the #2 pick?)

 

[Irvinecommuter]

IC is the guy on the basketball court that you hate to see on the other team... but when he's on your team... it's so good.

(so who is GS gonna get with the #2 pick?)

My guess is that they will trade down and get more picks for 2021/2022 so that they can sign and trade for top FAs in 2021.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommyb...s-could-be-historically-stacked/#494702096e6d

But pick wise...I am thinking Wiseman...but I heard not so great things about him. 

 

[Mety]

@IC, You keep saying we can meet in a small group. My understanding is that we can't. We're only allowed to meet within families if we're meeting inside. Are you 100% sure we can meet in small groups inside? Then how many are allowed? 10, 20, 150?

Let me tell you what I believe how salvation works even though it might not sound super convincing to you. If you really believe Jesus as your LORD, then your "spirit" or your "soul" is already saved. You spirit is the new creation. Your own spirit, your old self is gone. God remembers no more of your old self. Do you see it's the "spiritual" issue here? Now, you still have your "body" living in this world. This body is still you. Your body is still sinning and doing all sorts of things you DON'T want as Paul said in Romans 7 as you described. Your body is the reason you're hoping for the Heaven where you body will be saved and perfect like your spirit. Your body will be like Jesus' resurrected body finally. That's our hope, if not one and only hope as you live in this world with your sinful body. Therefore, the moment your spirit is saved, the moment when you really accepted Jesus as your LORD, by repentance, which means by asking Jesus to be your Savior, who died even though He didn't sin while we all deserve to die because of our sin, just like how that criminal on the cross next to Jesus specifically confessed of, is when you're saved and that's it for the matter of salvation. Our body though is still dying and corrupting. So we have a lifetime battle to beat ourselves up to get away from sin until Jesus takes us home. So your old self is gone once you put your faith in Jesus. That is God's work, not yours. Jews and legalists were and still are trying to do that on their own, but it won't work. Jesus is the only way, the truth, and the life. Your spirit needs Jesus so all of your burdens are no more for the matter of salvation. Once that's done, your body also is looking to be like Jesus one day. This body or physical matter is whole another topic so I'll stop here at this spiritual salvation for now.

As for your question why we need to meet in public is because that's what God designed for believers to gather in person to be the proclamation of your faith in public. To make it known, to show you're God's people, to announce of His great Name. What people do wrong or what Jesus pointed out to Jews was they were gathering to make their own names great. But gathering publicly itself was nothing wrong which Jesus Himself also did in synagogues every time. You keep saying Paul was alone when he was prisoned. Yes, exactly. He was under a "persecution." He had no choice but to be alone. Do you get what I'm saying?

 

[Irvinecommuter]

@IC, You keep saying we can meet in a small group. My understanding is that we can't. We're only allowed to meet within families if we're meeting inside. Are you 100% sure we can meet in small groups inside? Then how many are allowed? 10, 20, 150?

Again..where does it say that you cannot?  People literally go to other people's homes to have dinner and hang out.  You think the state is going to send in the police to check if you are also having Bible studies?

I am also not sure what your definition of small group is?  My group has like 15 people in it...not sure 150 constitutes a small group.

Also:

On May 25, 2020, in an effort to balance First Amendment interests with public health, the State Public Health Officer created an exception to the prohibition against mass gatherings for faith-based services and cultural ceremonies as well as protests. Those types of gatherings are now permitted indoors so long as they do not exceed 100 attendees or 25% of the capacity of the space in which the gathering is held, whichever is lower. State public health directives now do not prohibit in-person outdoor faith-based services or protests as long as face coverings are worn and physical distancing of 6 feet between persons or groups of persons from different households is maintained at all times. All other gatherings are prohibited until further notice, except as otherwise specifically permitted in state public health directives (including in applicable industry guidance)

https://covid19.ca.gov/stay-home-except-for-essential-needs/

Let me tell you what I believe how salvation works even though it might not sound super convincing to you. If you really believe Jesus as your LORD, then your "spirit" or your "soul" is already saved. You spirit is the new creation. Your own spirit, your old self is gone. God remembers no more of your old self. Do you see it's the "spiritual" issue here? Now, you still have your "body" living in this world. This body is still you. Your body is still sinning and doing all sorts of things you DON'T want as Paul said in Romans 7 as you described. Your body is the reason you're hoping for the Heaven where you body will be saved and perfect like your spirit. Your body will be like Jesus' resurrected body finally. That's our hope, if not one and only hope as you live in this world with your sinful body. Therefore, the moment your spirit is saved, the moment when you really accepted Jesus as your LORD, by repentance, which means by asking Jesus to be your Savior, who died even though He didn't sin while we all deserve to die because of our sin, just like how that criminal on the cross next to Jesus specifically confessed of, is when you're saved and that's it for the matter of salvation. Our body though is still dying and corrupting. So we have a lifetime battle to beat ourselves up to get away from sin until Jesus takes you home. So your old self is gone once you put your faith in Jesus. That is God's work, not yours. Jews and legalists were and still are trying to do that on their own, but it won't work. Jesus is the only way, the truth, and the life. Your spirit needs Jesus so all of your burdens are no more for the matter of salvation. Once that's done, your body also is looking to be like Jesus one day. This body or physical matter is whole another topic so I'll stop here at this spiritual salvation for now.

Yeah...you are still looking for evidence of your salvation.  I don't.  I know I am saved because I made the choice to call God as my Lord and Jesus as my Savior.  No more evidence needed. 

The rest of what you talk about is your relationship with God as a Christian.  That does require "works" but again...works is different for everyone. 

As for your question why we need to meet in public is because that's what God designed for believers to gather in person to be the proclamation of your faith in public. To make it known, to show you're God's people, to announce of His great Name. What people do wrong or what Jesus pointed out to Jews was they were gathering to make their own names great. But gathering publicly itself was nothing wrong which Jesus Himself also did in synagogues every time. You keep saying Paul was alone when he was prisoned. Yes, exactly. He was under a "persecution." He had no choice but to be alone. Do you get what I'm saying?

There is nothing wrong with meeting publicly but it is not "a requirement".  Paul was alone and experienced significant spiritual growth because he remain connected to God and fellowship with other through his letters.  Early churches met in home rather than public spaces.  They professed the greatness of God in their own way...that is not any less worthy or powerful than having 30000 people meeting in an arena. 

You are the one who is making the argument that Christian "need" to meet physically in a church in order to worship properly...others are saying that this is an arbitrary line that you made up.  That is why I asked about how many people you believe it necessary to have a "proper" worship...is it 10, 20, or 150?  Because you seem to think that there needs to be a critical mass to have proper worship.

Additionally, if this is "persecution" by Satan, we should learn to deal with it and thrive just like Paul did.  We are taught to obey the authorities unless they are contrary to God...there is nothing to indicate that COVID order is contrary to God.

 

[Mety]

Thanks for the link.https://covid19.ca.gov/safer-economy/

Type in Orange for County and type Places of Worship in Activity. It says "Can open outdoors only with modifications." Obviously these change day to day now and currently we can't do indoor worship. We can't meet at home for worship according to the state. You keep looking for numbers from me while I don't so I can't help you on that. 

IMO, COVID order is contrary to God's. You along with IHO and possibly many others don't think so. So we'll continue to disagree on this until later on.

You said you made a choice to call God as your Lord and Jesus as your Savior. I don't think that's something "you" did since I believe it was the Holy Spirit who did in you.

As for the evidence, we might be talking about completely different stuff here. If those white racists keep saying they have God as Lord and Jesus as Savior for them while still doing all those hatred stuff, there is that evidence they're not really saved. Although if they struggle to get their sinful hatred out of their lives internally without anyone knowing, there goes a chance or evidence of salvation for them. Simply put, if there love in one's life, most likely God is working in that person. If there is no love, there is no God in him/her.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Thanks for the link.https://covid19.ca.gov/safer-economy/

Type in Orange for County and type Places of Worship in Activity. It says "Can open outdoors only with modifications." Obviously these change day to day now and currently we can't do indoor worship. We can't meet at home for worship according to the state. You keep looking for numbers from me while I don't so I can't help you on that. 

What?  You are literally restricting yourself and then claiming persecution.  Places of Worship means churches, temples, etcs...there is nothing stopping you from gathering in your homes with other church members to worship. 

You are the one who is coming up with this arbitrary rule that you have to meet with people in your church physically. 

IMO, COVID order is contrary to God's. You along with IHO and possibly many others don't think so. So we'll continue to disagree on this until later on.

Except...there is nothing to indicate that it is.

You said you made a choice to call God as your Lord and Jesus as your Savior. I don't think that's something "you" did since I believe it was the Holy Spirit who did in you.

I make the choice...just like every individual needs to make the choice.  I do not believe in predestination or that God choose me to be saved, that would create a perverse situation in which God choose who is saved and who is not.  Ever since the fall of Adam, God allows humans to make their own choices...He is always moving us toward Him but it is our choice to acknowledge His sovereignty.

As for the evidence, we might be talking about completely different stuff here. If those white racists keep saying they have God as Lord and Jesus as Savior for them while still doing all those hatred stuff, there is that evidence they're not really saved. Although if they struggle to get their sinful hatred out of their lives internally without anyone knowing, there goes a chance or evidence of salvation for them. Simply put, if there love in one's life, most likely God is working in that person. If there is no love, there is no God in him/her.

Again...that is based upon your human interpretation and POV.  That is not what God sees.  All fall short of the glory of God.  Whether someone is saved or not is not for me to interpret or judge...that is between the person and God.  If someone professes to be a Christian, I have the duty to challenge that person's beliefs and actions based upon the word of God...but I don't get to challenge whether that person is or is not saved.  That is the difference between salvation and relationship.

 

[eyephone]

Mety: No offense, but the laws are to protect people from getting sick. People have a choice to not follow it. Which is happening across many sectors: parties, concerts, protests, big gatherings, etc...

Press Herald Article: Coronavirus outbreak detected at Sanford church

At least five cases of COVID-19 were confirmed at Calvary Baptist Church, whose pastor apparently officiated at a wedding reception in Millinocket that is now linked to more than 100 confirmed cases. The Maine CDC is investigating possible links to other outbreaks York and Penobscot counties.

The church?s pastor, Todd Bell, posted a tweet on Aug. 6 saying he was headed to northern Maine for a wedding. On Aug. 7, there was a wedding and reception in Millinocket that violated state guidelines for large gatherings and has been linked to more than 100 confirmed coronavirus cases, including one death.
https://www.pressherald.com/2020/08/29/coronavirus-outbreak-detected-at-sanford-church/

 

[irvinehomeowner]

IMO, COVID order is contrary to God's.

The Bible does tell us to look after our health.

You along with IHO and possibly many others don't think so. So we'll continue to disagree on this until later on.

You still have yet to point out exactly what is contrary to God's order.

We've been able to "gather" and worship fine for the last few months. In fact, it's easier for me to go to service and we now have more people attending who had moved to different areas.

 

[Mety]

Thanks for the link.https://covid19.ca.gov/safer-economy/

Type in Orange for County and type Places of Worship in Activity. It says "Can open outdoors only with modifications." Obviously these change day to day now and currently we can't do indoor worship. We can't meet at home for worship according to the state. You keep looking for numbers from me while I don't so I can't help you on that. 

What?  You are literally restricting yourself and then claiming persecution.  Places of Worship means churches, temples, etcs...there is nothing stopping you from gathering in your homes with other church members to worship. 

You are the one who is coming up with this arbitrary rule that you have to meet with people in your church physically. 

IMO, COVID order is contrary to God's. You along with IHO and possibly many others don't think so. So we'll continue to disagree on this until later on.

Except...there is nothing to indicate that it is.

You said you made a choice to call God as your Lord and Jesus as your Savior. I don't think that's something "you" did since I believe it was the Holy Spirit who did in you.

I make the choice...just like every individual needs to make the choice.  I do not believe in predestination or that God choose me to be saved, that would create a perverse situation in which God choose who is saved and who is not.  Ever since the fall of Adam, God allows humans to make their own choices...He is always moving us toward Him but it is our choice to acknowledge His sovereignty.

As for the evidence, we might be talking about completely different stuff here. If those white racists keep saying they have God as Lord and Jesus as Savior for them while still doing all those hatred stuff, there is that evidence they're not really saved. Although if they struggle to get their sinful hatred out of their lives internally without anyone knowing, there goes a chance or evidence of salvation for them. Simply put, if there love in one's life, most likely God is working in that person. If there is no love, there is no God in him/her.

Again...that is based upon your human interpretation and POV.  That is not what God sees.  All fall short of the glory of God.  Whether someone is saved or not is not for me to interpret or judge...that is between the person and God.  If someone professes to be a Christian, I have the duty to challenge that person's beliefs and actions based upon the word of God...but I don't get to challenge whether that person is or is not saved.  That is the difference between salvation and relationship.

Now you're saying home is not a place of worship? lol Anyways, in-home bible studies are banned in CA. You're saying just gather with other church friends at home and worship? That sounds great until we have this ban and outdoor only limitations now. Sure, no one might stop (unless your neighbor calls cops), but it's technically "illegal" now.

Physical gathering is God's commandment so that's where I see this order being contrary to God's will. I gave you background on this from God's commandment to Israel how to worship and the purpose of it being the public proclamation of your faith. 

If you're more into Arminianism then your view of Christianity could be a little different than mine where it is more of Calvinism. I'm not hard leaned to one, but it makes more sense when you read the Bible if you believe God predestined everything from the beginning. It makes God more God IMHO. You do make a choice. But I believe any good choice you make is from God. Any bad ones are from you. Judas Iscariot being one example.

 

[Mety]

IMO, COVID order is contrary to God's.

The Bible does tell us to look after our health.

You along with IHO and possibly many others don't think so. So we'll continue to disagree on this until later on.

You still have yet to point out exactly what is contrary to God's order.

We've been able to "gather" and worship fine for the last few months. In fact, it's easier for me to go to service and we now have more people attending who had moved to different areas.

Where in the Bible tells us to look after our health? I'm not saying don't do it. I'm just asking where are you getting that from.

The Greek word for church is "ecclesia," which means "assembly." It means physical gathering. You gather to love. You share good things. You share gospel. But more than anything God made it so so you publicly announce you're God's people. That is commanded from the Exodus to the NT by Jesus also.

If you think Zoom is fine, then go ahead. I'm simply expressing my concerns if it continues for long terms.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Now you're saying home is not a place of worship? lol Anyways, in-home bible studies are banned in CA. You're saying just gather with other church friends at home and worship? That sounds great until we have this ban and outdoor only limitations now. Sure, no one might stop (unless your neighbor calls cops), but it's technically "illegal" now.

No...I am saying that the order relating to "place of worship" does not include in-home Bible studies.  There is nothing to say that in-home parties are okay but in-home Bible studies are not.  You are making that up yourself.  It is absolutely not banned or illegal.

The issue is large group gathering...not the purpose of those gatherings.

Physical gathering is God's commandment so that's where I see this order being contrary to God's will. I gave you background on this from God's commandment to Israel how to worship and the purpose of it being the public proclamation of your faith. 

Physical gathering is not God's commandment...which of the Ten Commandments would that be?  Why am I following the Israel/Old Testament model instead of the New Testament/Church is everywhere model?

If you're more into Arminianism then your view of Christianity could be a little different than mine where it is more of Calvinism. I'm not hard leaned to one, but it makes more sense when you read the Bible if you believe God predestined everything from the beginning. It makes God more God IMHO. You do make a choice. But I believe any good choice you make is from God. Any bad ones are from you. Judas Iscariot being one example.

I am not ascribing any particular belief system or teaching...I am using the logic and brain that God gave to me and the words of God.  Others may assist me in my understanding of God but Jesus tore the veil and thus my relationship is between myself and God, Jesus is the only intermediary I need.

It makes zero sense because God is love and predestination is the opposite of love.  Why did God bother to make the tree of good and evil?  Because of love...love requires choice.  If you say that God pre-determined who He loves or can be loved by him...it would absolutely destroy that concept that God is love.  Again...God forgives, He does not forget.  He create one choice/law...He gave that choice to the angels but they do not get to be saved/redeemed.  Only humans get that salvation.     

Judas made a choice...it was his choice, it was a bad choice and the result of his sinful nature.  But his sin/choice is no better or worse than Peter's (who denied Jesus 3x) or any other person's bad choices.  The cause the sinful nature of our being. 

That is why salvation is not and cannot be based upon actions...because we all fall short of the glory of God.  We are saved from all the sins that we will ever commit but that does not mean we will not sin after we are saved. 

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Where in the Bible tells us to look after our health? I'm not saying don't do it. I'm just asking where are you getting that from.

The Greek word for church is "ecclesia," which means "assembly." It means physical gathering. You gather to love. You share good things. You share gospel. But more than anything God made it so so you publicly announce you're God's people. That is commanded from the Exodus to the NT by Jesus also.

If you think Zoom is fine, then go ahead. I'm simply expressing my concerns if it continues for long terms.

It actually doesn't mean physical gathering...it certainly doesn't mean physical gather in a particular building or over a certain number of people. 

"Church is the English translation of the Greek word ekklesia. The use of the Greek term prior to the emergence of the Christian church is important as two streams of meaning flow from the history of its usage into the New Testament understanding of church.

"First, the Greek term which basically means 'called out' was commonly used to indicate an assembly of citizens of a Greek city and is so used in Acts 19:32, 39. The citizens who were quite conscious of their privileged status over against slaves and noncitizens were called to the assembly by a herald and dealt . . . with matters of common concern. When the early Christians understood themselves as constituting a church, no doubt exists that they perceived themselves as called out by God in Jesus Christ for a special purpose and that their status was a privileged one in Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:19).

"Second, the Greek term was used more than one hundred times in the Greek translation of the Old Testament in common use in the time of Jesus. The Hebrew term (qahal) meant simply 'assembly' and could be used in a variety of ways, referring for example to an assembling of prophets (1 Sam. 19:20), soldiers (Num. 22:4), or the people of God (Deut. 9:10). The use of the term in the Old Testament in referring to the people of God is important for understanding the term 'church' in the New Testament.

https://www.ucg.ca/bible-study-lessons/what-is-the-church/historical-background-word-church

Again...there is no stopping you for doing any of those things you said via zoom or virtual gatherings.  I work from home via remote/virtual methods...that does not mean that I am not working or doing the work.  Just doing it differently.

This is like saying we cannot use airplane or cars to travel because they did not have those things in the Bible.

And again...there is nothing stopping you and others to meet and have a Bible study.  The early church did not congregate in a physical structure but rather met in homes. 

God cares about fellowship...not about how it is done.

 

[Mety]

Now you're saying home is not a place of worship? lol Anyways, in-home bible studies are banned in CA. You're saying just gather with other church friends at home and worship? That sounds great until we have this ban and outdoor only limitations now. Sure, no one might stop (unless your neighbor calls cops), but it's technically "illegal" now.

No...I am saying that the order relating to "place of worship" does not include in-home Bible studies.  There is nothing to say that in-home parties are okay but in-home Bible studies are not.  You are making that up yourself.  It is absolutely not banned or illegal.

The issue is large group gathering...not the purpose of those gatherings.

Are you saying I can meet church friends at my home and do bible studies and even worship? Are you sure that's not illegal in Orange County, CA? I'll give you numbers since you so desperately want one. How about I call 5 friends?

Also why would I make negative things up like that? Not sure why you keep thinking I'm making things up when it benefits me nothing. I ignored it at first, but seems like you firmly believe so I had to sort that out.

Physical gathering is God's commandment so that's where I see this order being contrary to God's will. I gave you background on this from God's commandment to Israel how to worship and the purpose of it being the public proclamation of your faith. 

Physical gathering is not God's commandment...which of the Ten Commandments would that be?  Why am I following the Israel/Old Testament model instead of the New Testament/Church is everywhere model?

God commended His people to come at certain places to do specific things designed by Him. It was to show worshiping Him is different than worshiping other false gods. He even said if you were too far, He would still provide alternate specific places to worship so. If non-physical gathering is more efficient and fine, why wouldn't He thought of that and straight up just gave them that option?

Why we church would follow what God gave Israel to do so? Where in the 10 commandment it's from? I'll give you where. It's in the 1st commandment. If God is your real only LORD, then you would follow His commandments, a physical gathering being one of them. Is it necessary to be saved? No, but you would want to follow so if you really loved the LORD and His people.

If you're more into Arminianism then your view of Christianity could be a little different than mine where it is more of Calvinism. I'm not hard leaned to one, but it makes more sense when you read the Bible if you believe God predestined everything from the beginning. It makes God more God IMHO. You do make a choice. But I believe any good choice you make is from God. Any bad ones are from you. Judas Iscariot being one example.

I am not ascribing any particular belief system or teaching...I am using the logic and brain that God gave to me and the words of God.  Others may assist me in my understanding of God but Jesus tore the veil and thus my relationship is between myself and God, Jesus is the only intermediary I need.

It makes zero sense because God is love and predestination is the opposite of love.  Why did God bother to make the tree of good and evil?  Because of love...love requires choice.  If you say that God pre-determined who He loves or can be loved by him...it would absolutely destroy that concept that God is love.  Again...God forgives, He does not forget.  He create one choice/law...He gave that choice to the angels but they do not get to be saved/redeemed.  Only humans get that salvation.     

Judas made a choice...it was his choice, it was a bad choice and the result of his sinful nature.  But his sin/choice is no better or worse than Peter's (who denied Jesus 3x) or any other person's bad choices.  The cause the sinful nature of our being. 

That is why salvation is not and cannot be based upon actions...because we all fall short of the glory of God.  We are saved from all the sins that we will ever commit but that does not mean we will not sin after we are saved.

To me, God's all knowing and predestined grace is less or no "work" at all on my end than something I would have to choose my own. To me, God's sovereign grace over even my mistakes speaks greater love. If I were to make the right choice, then that makes "my action" linked to salvation. I don't believe that is God of the Bible. We make wrong choices and actions all the time. Any good actions, choices, or outcomes are all God's work. We don't make the right choices. God does. It is work of the Holy Spirit. To me, that requires no work on my end. I just stay thankful, humble, and praise of His love. Not sure why you think I'm saying we need to work on salvation while that's the exact oppose of what I'm saying and your view seems to require more work since you're saying we need to make a "right choice" on our own.

"For he says to Moses, ?I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.? So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. " - Romans 9:15-16

 

[Mety]

IC is the guy on the basketball court that you hate to see on the other team... but when he's on your team... it's so good.

Actually, I love having IC here. Sure we disagree on things and sometime it grieves me, but I guess you're saying that because you think alike with him on Christianity. Glad to see you show your love for him.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

IMO, COVID order is contrary to God's.

The Bible does tell us to look after our health.

You along with IHO and possibly many others don't think so. So we'll continue to disagree on this until later on.

You still have yet to point out exactly what is contrary to God's order.

We've been able to "gather" and worship fine for the last few months. In fact, it's easier for me to go to service and we now have more people attending who had moved to different areas.

Where in the Bible tells us to look after our health? I'm not saying don't do it. I'm just asking where are you getting that from.

The Greek word for church is "ecclesia," which means "assembly." It means physical gathering. You gather to love. You share good things. You share gospel. But more than anything God made it so so you publicly announce you're God's people. That is commanded from the Exodus to the NT by Jesus also.

If you think Zoom is fine, then go ahead. I'm simply expressing my concerns if it continues for long terms.

Sorry... meant to quote this, not thank it.

I'm just going to pray for you.

You can easily find where in the Bible it says to protect your health (hint: your body is a temple)

And IC already corrected you on your definition of church/ecclesia/assembly.

You are so caught up in the physical, face-to-face aspect without realizing there are more important things to fellowship.