God?
- Thread starter irvinehomeowner
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If church is not a building so why do we need to congregate underneath one? Zoom/virtual meeting are just as good IMO. Plenty of churches have had virtual/online services for years.
Jesus stated that "For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them"....why the need for group gatherings?
Paul sent letters to all the various congregations while in prison, was he not with God or in fellowship with the other churches/saints?
Honestly, I believe that the churches who want in-church services are in it for the collection plate.
Sorry...but this is ridiculous. We are saved because God promised that we are saved if we believe that God is our Lord and Jesus our savior. That's it...nothing more...nothing less.
You can grow in your relationship with God and become a better Christian but your salvation is not based upon what you can do or have done. My favorite passage from the Bible:
This need to "justify" salvation is exactly what Jesus preached against.
Spirit of God does not give us discernment...the Tree of Good and Evil gives us discernment. Holy Spirit is supposed to be the motivating force for us to strive for God and be better Christian but it does not "condemn". Saints at Pentacost weren't going around condemning...they were just enjoying being in fellowship with God.
There are no "common folks"...all are equal in the eyes of God and understanding of the Bible and God is individualized. You can get assistance from scholars and pastors but ultimately the relationship is between you and God.
Just like someone can read all the books about marriage and listen the counselor but ultimately a marriage is between the two individuals involved. No amount of reading or consulting will help.
As a Christian, the ultimate goal is utter surrender to God. It is God/Jesus who will make changes into one's life, not oneself or another. The more we try to do, the further we are away from God.
I didn't say gathering over Zoom is not biblical, did I? I said "no gathering at all" is not biblical. Also I said that's my opinion which could be wrong. I'm still searching and studying asking God for wisdom about this situation with meeting up and not meeting up etc. But I do think God meant believers to grow together as a community not as individuals isolated. Some are totally fine or are only limited to the virtual gatherings so there are exceptions of course. I'm only expressing my concern over that this country might be persecuting church in a way no one really thought of. Maybe you don't see it that way.
Your implication is that Zoom/virtual are not really "gatherings", or else why would you mention them.
How is this country "persecuting church"? It's a health issue... it's protecting people.. including church goers.
Again... Mety measuring stick.
Zoom is a meeting. You can call it "gatherings." But I think keep staying in that for a long time is dangerous especially for church. What about the new people? What about those who's been interested to come and join for all these months? What about kids? Are they not supposed to gather physically to interact and worship anymore? What about those who were encouraged by gatherings in-person? What about those who lost interests and not watching Zoom, Youtube, live streams anymore? What about older people who can't use these technology?
The reason of banning worship from the state is that because we sing praise songs which (they're saying) could bring potentials of spreading more rapidly of this virus. So until we have a vaccine, which likely will take another year or so, church can't gather and sing together anymore? You say it's a health issue, but this state death rate of this year is no different than last year. Covid-19 contributed as little as less than 0.1% to the death rate if you care.
Again, I'm all for being careful. Masks and keeping distances are all fine. Church can still gather and follow all those, right? I believe we were allowed for couple weeks. Then the state completely banned gathering all together for church now. How is that not a persecution (or a preview of it)?
Not sure where you're getting the idea of me being brain washed exactly and of what, but maybe you should check if you're not being brain washed first.
If you're voting for Biden, by all means, go for it. It's your freedom and choice. I won't get into who is politically more right or wrong here. You can keep doing that with morekaos at the political thread lol.
Let's keep this thread among the discussion of our faith and church.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
I see lots of tents in churches around Irvine.
I actually like Zoom service... easier to get to.
I actually like Zoom service... easier to get to.
Zoom, video streams, Youtube, etc. are all fine, but how long? Until the vaccine comes out? After it comes out, how long will it take for everyone to believe it's actually safe?
I thought it was a right thing to do online services at first couple months, but now it seems like the church would not be allowed for indoor services for quite a bit. It actually defeats the whole purpose of "church" then, doesn't it? Church is not a building, but no gathering at all is not really biblical in my opinion. Maybe the persecution of the church is starting in the US? Idk.
I guess outdoor/tent services are somewhat allowed. Not sure how many church will actually do that with this hot weather though.
I thought it was a right thing to do online services at first couple months, but now it seems like the church would not be allowed for indoor services for quite a bit. It actually defeats the whole purpose of "church" then, doesn't it? Church is not a building, but no gathering at all is not really biblical in my opinion. Maybe the persecution of the church is starting in the US? Idk.
I guess outdoor/tent services are somewhat allowed. Not sure how many church will actually do that with this hot weather though.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
Just because you can't gather indoor doesn't mean you can't gather.
Why is gathering over Zoom not biblical? You're applying your Mety measuring stick again.
Why is gathering over Zoom not biblical? You're applying your Mety measuring stick again.
Irvinecommuter
New member
Mety said:
If church is not a building so why do we need to congregate underneath one? Zoom/virtual meeting are just as good IMO. Plenty of churches have had virtual/online services for years.
Jesus stated that "For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them"....why the need for group gatherings?
Paul sent letters to all the various congregations while in prison, was he not with God or in fellowship with the other churches/saints?
Honestly, I believe that the churches who want in-church services are in it for the collection plate.
Irvinecommuter
New member
Mety said:
Sorry...but this is ridiculous. We are saved because God promised that we are saved if we believe that God is our Lord and Jesus our savior. That's it...nothing more...nothing less.
You can grow in your relationship with God and become a better Christian but your salvation is not based upon what you can do or have done. My favorite passage from the Bible:
This need to "justify" salvation is exactly what Jesus preached against.
Irvinecommuter
New member
Mety said:
Spirit of God does not give us discernment...the Tree of Good and Evil gives us discernment. Holy Spirit is supposed to be the motivating force for us to strive for God and be better Christian but it does not "condemn". Saints at Pentacost weren't going around condemning...they were just enjoying being in fellowship with God.
There are no "common folks"...all are equal in the eyes of God and understanding of the Bible and God is individualized. You can get assistance from scholars and pastors but ultimately the relationship is between you and God.
Just like someone can read all the books about marriage and listen the counselor but ultimately a marriage is between the two individuals involved. No amount of reading or consulting will help.
As a Christian, the ultimate goal is utter surrender to God. It is God/Jesus who will make changes into one's life, not oneself or another. The more we try to do, the further we are away from God.
irvinehomeowner said:
I didn't say gathering over Zoom is not biblical, did I? I said "no gathering at all" is not biblical. Also I said that's my opinion which could be wrong. I'm still searching and studying asking God for wisdom about this situation with meeting up and not meeting up etc. But I do think God meant believers to grow together as a community not as individuals isolated. Some are totally fine or are only limited to the virtual gatherings so there are exceptions of course. I'm only expressing my concern over that this country might be persecuting church in a way no one really thought of. Maybe you don't see it that way.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
Mety said:
Your implication is that Zoom/virtual are not really "gatherings", or else why would you mention them.
How is this country "persecuting church"? It's a health issue... it's protecting people.. including church goers.
Again... Mety measuring stick.
@IC,
First of all, welcome back! IHO missed you so much. I did also believe or not.
Second, as for the essay/article/ridiculous message as you want to call I posted about "How do we, Christians, know if we're really saved?" I'm only covering what are some proofs or evidences we can see as Christians to have some assurance of our salvation. What you're saying is correct. We are saved by grace, but I'm talking about something else if you really understand what I wrote. I didn't talk about how to be saved at all in case that's what you thought.
Third, if you see those churches meeting up only as greedy ones, then that's pretty sad. That's the byproduct of what modern churches have made you think such way or you're too negative. Our church is pretty strict and not allowing anyone other than pastors and some staffs, but I wish we would go back gathering again.
Fourth, Holy Spirit does give us believers discernment. If you don't believe that, we can get into that discussion, but I'll leave it at that for now.
Fifth, yes, the relationship between you and God is the most critical one, but you can't survive alone. That's why we need to gather as God commanded us to. God's design is the different body parts of Christ as one - a community - much fellowship with one another together sort of a thing, if you know what I'm saying. That's why God gave Adam a wife and commanded to reproductive to create offsprings and generations to make a community, God's community.
Lastly, if you could explain what it means to "utter surrender to God" as you said, that would be great. I believe so as well, but I want to know what your take on it is by saying that.
First of all, welcome back! IHO missed you so much. I did also believe or not.
Second, as for the essay/article/ridiculous message as you want to call I posted about "How do we, Christians, know if we're really saved?" I'm only covering what are some proofs or evidences we can see as Christians to have some assurance of our salvation. What you're saying is correct. We are saved by grace, but I'm talking about something else if you really understand what I wrote. I didn't talk about how to be saved at all in case that's what you thought.
Third, if you see those churches meeting up only as greedy ones, then that's pretty sad. That's the byproduct of what modern churches have made you think such way or you're too negative. Our church is pretty strict and not allowing anyone other than pastors and some staffs, but I wish we would go back gathering again.
Fourth, Holy Spirit does give us believers discernment. If you don't believe that, we can get into that discussion, but I'll leave it at that for now.
Fifth, yes, the relationship between you and God is the most critical one, but you can't survive alone. That's why we need to gather as God commanded us to. God's design is the different body parts of Christ as one - a community - much fellowship with one another together sort of a thing, if you know what I'm saying. That's why God gave Adam a wife and commanded to reproductive to create offsprings and generations to make a community, God's community.
Lastly, if you could explain what it means to "utter surrender to God" as you said, that would be great. I believe so as well, but I want to know what your take on it is by saying that.
They can always meet outside.
Do not get brainwashed to think that the government is cracking down on you.
If you told me, tear gas/rubber bullets/pepper sprayed was used at the church then maybe I would say you are getting attacked. Wait that is the Feds in Portland beating vets and soccer moms.
Do not get brainwashed to think that the government is cracking down on you.
If you told me, tear gas/rubber bullets/pepper sprayed was used at the church then maybe I would say you are getting attacked. Wait that is the Feds in Portland beating vets and soccer moms.
irvinehomeowner said:
Zoom is a meeting. You can call it "gatherings." But I think keep staying in that for a long time is dangerous especially for church. What about the new people? What about those who's been interested to come and join for all these months? What about kids? Are they not supposed to gather physically to interact and worship anymore? What about those who were encouraged by gatherings in-person? What about those who lost interests and not watching Zoom, Youtube, live streams anymore? What about older people who can't use these technology?
The reason of banning worship from the state is that because we sing praise songs which (they're saying) could bring potentials of spreading more rapidly of this virus. So until we have a vaccine, which likely will take another year or so, church can't gather and sing together anymore? You say it's a health issue, but this state death rate of this year is no different than last year. Covid-19 contributed as little as less than 0.1% to the death rate if you care.
Again, I'm all for being careful. Masks and keeping distances are all fine. Church can still gather and follow all those, right? I believe we were allowed for couple weeks. Then the state completely banned gathering all together for church now. How is that not a persecution (or a preview of it)?
@eyephone,
Outdoor church gathering is one way we can do. IHO said he saw many tents in churches around Irvine so I guess many are doing that also.
As for politics, I think politicians or heavily biased medias are making church as a political advantage. Republicans definitely have been doing that to win more votes. Democrats always go with a safe call of being "I'm a devout Catholic" sort of a line which kind of makes you look like you believe God and also all other things.
Well IMHO, church is to submit to the political authority in all things no matter which party is in charge, except when it goes against what God has commanded. We've been starting to see more of those recently for couple of years and the reality is there will only be more and more.
Outdoor church gathering is one way we can do. IHO said he saw many tents in churches around Irvine so I guess many are doing that also.
As for politics, I think politicians or heavily biased medias are making church as a political advantage. Republicans definitely have been doing that to win more votes. Democrats always go with a safe call of being "I'm a devout Catholic" sort of a line which kind of makes you look like you believe God and also all other things.
Well IMHO, church is to submit to the political authority in all things no matter which party is in charge, except when it goes against what God has commanded. We've been starting to see more of those recently for couple of years and the reality is there will only be more and more.
Again you are falling for the trap and getting brain washed.
If you are okay with the President using tear gas and using force against US citizens then trump is your man. But I have to say those are characteristics of a dictator.
(Such as Pontius Pilate in the Bible)
If you are okay with the President using tear gas and using force against US citizens then trump is your man. But I have to say those are characteristics of a dictator.
(Such as Pontius Pilate in the Bible)
Mety said:
eyephone said:
Not sure where you're getting the idea of me being brain washed exactly and of what, but maybe you should check if you're not being brain washed first.
If you're voting for Biden, by all means, go for it. It's your freedom and choice. I won't get into who is politically more right or wrong here. You can keep doing that with morekaos at the political thread lol.
Let's keep this thread among the discussion of our faith and church.