God?

[Mety]

Read my post... I asked what do you mean by "help".

People need help. All sinners need help. A help to be saved. A help to not live a sinful life. Gay people need it. You and I need it. What is the content of that help? It's knowing the Word of God and asking Holy Spirit we would live by it. Lying to your friend is a sin. Sleeping around with someone who is not your spouse is a sin. Stealing tax money is a sin. Having a homosexual relationship is a sin. More than anything, not believing Jesus, the Son of God, as the only Way to the Father is the biggest sin that's actually NOT forgivable. The Bible says so and only the Holy Spirit can fix our sins. That is what I mean by "help."

 

[Mety]

I think we are digressing. I don't think our discussion is actually getting anywhere.

The original point of this thread was to get a feel for who believes in God or not. By the poll, the believers (whether it be God or some higher power) outweigh the non-believers.

But as qwerty said many pages ago (because he admitted in not believing in God... or has that changed?), that people only believe in God to explain things they fear or don't know about (I'm paraphrasing).

I think someone else posted that more intelligent people (not sure how that is defined) tend to not believe in God.

I can't fathom there not being a God. Is it really "When you die, you die" and that's it? (that was for qwerty )

"people only believe in God to explain things they fear or don't know about" - this is actually true. qwerty is right. However, I think God revealed Himself loud and clear through the Bible. So that fear or don't know about are all explainable from the Scripture if you ask specifically what you want to know.

I said more intelligent you get, more likely you'll end up believing God in some other thread. I did explain why also.

 

[Mety]

What is that love relationship CHRISTIANS are supposed to be having?

People often mistakenly think those people who focus on biblical teachings more than social relationships and such are not loving enough and ignorance of different people. Well, there certainly are those types of people in this world, but we need to take a look at what it really is that the Bible speaks of loving relationship with one another.

The Holy Bible, especially the NT section from the arrival of Jesus on this earth, there seems to be many gatherings and meetings and such. Jesus indeed met with many people in their houses, synagogues, mountains, fields, and etc. After He died and rose again then ascended into Heaven, the disciples who are left on this earth kept having meetings and relationships with one another. They ate together, they prayed together, but more than anything, they shared themselves to one another. They started sharing their belongings. They sold houses, fields, or whatever they could to support the ministry of the disciples who became Apostles. That ministry is nothing but to spread "Jesus was crucified for your sins and rose again" to the ends of the earth, first to Jews then also to the gentiles.

Interestingly, the Bible shows more if not all relationship examples among believers. It rarely shows any examples the believers hanging out with unbelievers. Does this mean believers back then ignored unbelievers? At first, yes, they actually did that. They were "racists." They thought only Jews were saved, although Jesus Himself did proclaim salvation to Samaritans and also non-Jews, so they were not willing to have any relationship with non-Jews or non-believers. This later on is rebuked by God to Peter and also Paul became the minister for the gentiles since Jews so firmly rejected Christ. So there was a transitional period where the Apostles were starting to accept gentiles, non-Jews. God revealed to them that whether Jew or gentiles, they were all one in Christ. But still, we don't see much of these Christians mingling with non-Christians even after this transition in the NT.

So what then? Are we Christians not supposed to hang out with non-Christians? Here is the answer. The Bible shows and teaches that we Christians are to love one another among believers. And here is the punch line - "By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." said Jesus Christ. So the Bible says the world or non-believers WILL KNOW we are real Christians IF we love one another among us. If they know, they'll be interested. If they're interested, they'll knock on the door and have more open mind for Christ and His followers. That's the real "strategy" Jesus was teaching and also the Apostles kept writing about this in all throughout the NT.

The Bible never talks about holding hands with this world's smart tactics in terms of spreading the gospel or in terms of ANYTHING to be most accurate. Jesus teaches us LOVE is the only way we can proclaim the gospel. So how do we love then? The Bible is clear. As I've mentioned above, they shared everything together. There was no mine or yours. They opened their homes, sold their properties to support, prepared food to feed people, and some even died for one another. These were all happening among the believers of Jesus. That is real love. And that comes downs to this - Giving EVERYTHING you have for others. God gave everything, His only Son. So those first century Christians, filled with the Holy Spirit, could give everything they could. That is the real obedience of that second commandment of loving your neighbor as yourself.

What do we see in churches now days? People buy houses and cars to boast. Nobody sells their belonging to give to those in need. People sue each other. People commit adulteries. People envy and even willing to kill each other. These are happening in churches. Do these sound like a loving disciples of Christ? But these similar things were also happening if you read the books like 1st and 2nd Corinthians. Paul rebuked Christian brothers and sisters for doing all sorts such bad things. So it's nothing new. People get corrupted. Yes, even Christians do. So how do we keep ourselves in that loving status and not fall? We keep asking God. We keep our standards and mindset with the Word of God. We consider others better than ourselves. We give what we can and let God take care of us. We have to know we can't do that on our own but only by the power of the Holy Spirit. Can you sell your home to help others? I know I can't. But if any of us actually does, that's The Spirit of God working through that person. All these should be taught in much detail at your local churches by the motivation of loving one another.

Loving one another in church is the most effective and the only way to make non-believers to open their mind on Jesus. That is the right way we can start to accept new comers and have genuine relationships. World's smartest tactics might seem like they're working for a certain time, but those will all fade away without real love in church first. The only everlasting thing is LOVE. God is love.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Lying to your friend is a sin. Sleeping around with someone who is not your spouse is a sin. Stealing tax money is a sin. Having a homosexual relationship is a sin.

We are probably getting into deep waters here but is homosexuality really a sin? The things you listed before are actions, which are chosen... being gay is someone's life. One could argue that they have no choice, it is who they are.

What kind of help would you give them because while many of us can admit those other things are sins, a gay person may not think that loving someone of the same sex is a sin.

I'm not looking for an answer because I know this is a very tough subject. Just food for thought.

 

[Mety]

Lying to your friend is a sin. Sleeping around with someone who is not your spouse is a sin. Stealing tax money is a sin. Having a homosexual relationship is a sin.

We are probably getting into deep waters here but is homosexuality really a sin? The things you listed before are actions, which are chosen... being gay is someone's life. One could argue that they have no choice, it is who they are.

What kind of help would you give them because while many of us can admit those other things are sins, a gay person may not think that loving someone of the same sex is a sin.

I'm not looking for an answer because I know this is a very tough subject. Just food for thought.

I have no problem talking about this issue since I'm not singling out homosexual sin as something bigger or worse than me lying to others, which I try not to do.

Do you know the song You Are My All In All? It's a pretty famous modern Christian song by Dennis Jernigan. He was actually a gay man who got out of his sinful life and now married to a woman having 9 kids or so. Here is his website talking about homosexuality. You can read when you have time.https://www.dennisjernigan.com/needhelp/1257-no-one-is-born-gay

Also a famous Christian/Catholic writer/priest Henri Nouwen was known as a homosexual person. He fought his battle not to get involved in sexual relationship though.

If you read that link, he explains better than me trying with all these words so I'll leave it at that.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

You skirted my question but that's fine.

It wasn't if homosexuality is "bigger or worse", it was if it's a sin at all.

I read your Dennis Jernigan link... how old is that post? Seems like very dated information and studies. I've read similar "accounts" like that, but like all things, I can point you to blogs that are opposite.

I just wanted you to think about what I asked. Is loving another person, even if they are of the same sex, a sin?

 

[Mety]

You skirted my question but that's fine.

It wasn't if homosexuality is "bigger or worse", it was if it's a sin at all.

I read your Dennis Jernigan link... how old is that post? Seems like very dated information and studies. I've read similar "accounts" like that, but like all things, I can point you to blogs that are opposite.

I just wanted you to think about what I asked. Is loving another person, even if they are of the same sex, a sin?

Well, besides the "dated" studies, his personal experience is the thing I was hoping you to focus reading on, but that's your choice.

I'm not really skirting around. You asked "Is loving another person, even if they are of the same sex, a sin?" Let me ask you this - Is loving another person, even if that is someone else's wife, a sin?

The division is at both LOVE and SIN here. You might have some other definition of love and sin than mine. And to answer your question, yes loving (or looking to have sexual relationship with) the same sex is a sin.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

I'm not really skirting around.

You are but that's beside the point.

You asked "Is loving another person, even if they are of the same sex, a sin?" Let me ask you this - Is loving another person, even if that is someone else's wife, a sin?

This is an easy one. The first is a sin because you are breaking covenants between other people. It's also a commandment (to get Biblical).

The second, who is being harmed? And where is the commandment that calls homosexual love a sin?

Very murky.

 

[Mety]

I'm not really skirting around.

You are but that's beside the point.

You asked "Is loving another person, even if they are of the same sex, a sin?" Let me ask you this - Is loving another person, even if that is someone else's wife, a sin?

This is an easy one. The first is a sin because you are breaking covenants between other people. It's also a commandment (to get Biblical).

The second, who is being harmed? And where is the commandment that calls homosexual love a sin?

Very murky.

Now we're talking! You're finally backing up from the Bible for what you're saying. Yes, you're right that it's breaking the covenants of the two, but more importantly, it's breaking the covenants of God for the marriage is designed by God Himself.

Where is the commandment that calls homosexual love a sin? First of all, I can't really say the word "love" there since I don't believe love belongs in such sin. And here is the Bible verse from Leviticus,

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." - Leviticus 20:13

There also are many verses in the NT that homosexuality is called out as something you can't keep doing to inherit the Kingdom of God although it is a forgivable sin while not accepting Jesus as LORD is not forgivable. Who's being harmed in such relationship? Both are getting harmed for they're violating their bodies, the temple of Christ. 

And I'm not sure what you mean I'm skirting. You often just call out but don't seem to care for the explanation.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Not a commandment.

You have to consider the context of the times of the Bible.

This is where we diverge.

 

[Mety]

Not a commandment.

You have to consider the context of the times of the Bible.

This is where we diverge.

Yes, we have different views of Christianity. We have different definitions of love. We even have different view of sin.

I don?t believe the Bible needs update. I don?t know if you think it does, but I believe it speaks the truth regardless of time. I lived all my life as Christian from a Christian family, but it took almost 30 years for me to finally come to know that truth. I believe God revealed to me at that stage of my life for His perfect timing. I hope He reveals to you and you believe the Word of God as is also.

BTW, here is that commandment verse if you still want to know.

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. - Leviticus 18:22

 

[irvinehomeowner]

So if your son or daughter tells you that they are gay, will you call them an abomination?

I don't think so.

And I'm talking about the 10 Commandments... that is neither Exodus or Deuteronomy.

 

[Mety]

So if your son or daughter tells you that they are gay, will you call them an abomination?

I don't think so.

And I'm talking about the 10 Commandments... that is neither Exodus or Deuteronomy.

I never said I would call them or any gay person abomination in their face. You asked for the verse so I gave to you. What I would do is I would tell them this is what the Word of God says. It might take some time, it might not go well at first, who knows? But it would take many prayers and much love, hoping God will make it right with that person eventually. But what's right is right and wrong is wrong. That needs to be addressed no matter who or what you're dealing with.

This just is another example of you're seeing the Bible or the message of the gospel only on one side, not the full picture. You're seeing the 10 commandments as the only commandment we need to follow? You're taking only Exodus and Deuteronomy as the valid commandments? Where did you get that idea from? You can't take portions. You need to take the whole Bible as is.

The reason God is calling out homosexuality as sin is not because He wants to destroy all those who practice. It's because He wants you to know what's right so that you can ask for His help from God if you can't get it right yourself, which applies for not just homosexuality but EVERY LAW He gave.

 

[eyephone]

He is definitely Belly. Bashing every thing on sight.
Maybe he found God by reading pamphlets on his porch/door. jkjk

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Devil's advocate time (oooo... scary):

On Leviticus 18:22, that is one of the verses cited as the "homosexuality bad" verse. But homosexual wasn't even a word back then.

Since neither you or I are Hebrew, what is the literal translation of Leviticus? And... if we are literally translating it, does that mean a woman lying with a woman is not an abomination... that lesbians get a pass here?

This is the problem I have with people trying to read the Bible to fit what they believe. Since you are referencing old posts, here is one:
https://blog.smu.edu/ot8317/2016/05...with,Christianity forbids same-sex relations.

Their translation: you should not have *incestuous* relationships... with a man or woman. The abomination is having sex with someone who you are related to... not the gender.

Or it could be that Leviticus was just talking about what Canaanite cults back in that day were doing which included incest and how do I say it gently, relations involving children:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0146107915577097

Leviticus also talks about not having relations with a woman on her cycle. Is that another abomination?

I just think in this modern world, we should consider context when trying to apply the Bible as a hard rule... or what is "right". And again, maybe this is my major failing and I won't see you in heaven.

 

[Mety]

"This is the problem I have with people trying to read the Bible to fit what they believe." - IHO
You said it right there. That's my problem too. What you're doing is exactly that in my view and here is why - You're in defense of them while not translating the Bible within the Bible.

Your provided link clearly says they're not 100% on their translation either. They're just in defense of the homosexuals from the people using those verses to condemn. While I firmly believe some intentions of the original Hebrew texts or traditional Aramaic linguistics Moses and many others wrote in the OT are mistranslated in English or any other languages, what God is saying are spoken clear on most (not every) versions we read today. And the proof is that they're mostly reiterated in the NT. That's one of the reasons Jesus came. To complete the Scripture by His clear teachings again on what God meant throughout the OT.

We, Christians are to translate all Scripture within the Scripture. Jesus' and later Apostles' teachings are all laid out for you in regard to how we translate the entire Bible from the OT to NT. In regard to homosexuality, that is taught again in Romans, 1 Corinthians, 1 Timothy, and at the final book final chapter, Revelation 22. HOWEVER, the point of this teaching including the Leviticus or even in Genesis when homosexuals were condemned in Sodom, is that YOU WERE ONE OF THEM before knowing Christ. We were the ones who practiced falsehood. But now, He is forgiving you. That's the whole point.

I'm with you that some stubborn so called Christians are hating homosexuals just because it looks wrong. I'm 100% positive most of those do not even know where Leviticus is in the Bible. They're all following just emotions. But after clear teachings God laid out for you in the entire Book, you can't see yourself any superior than the homosexuals or any other sinners in this world since you ARE that sinner. That's the beauty of the Bible. You might have been irritated at first of its message, but you end up realizing God's forgiveness is what everyone needs to hear. Instead of defensing them in some uncertain translation words play, it's much better to defense them within the Word of God.

I'm with you also on that we need to consider the time when those were written. I'm also always into the original texts. We really do need to see from Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek and also the original versions since there are many that some added portions are allowed in versions like NIV. But that's to see the cultures of the world back then and to understand the original intention of what God meant. It's NOT to re-translate into how we see fit best in the modern days. As much as some modern teachings are translating things wrong, some conservative folks are translating even worse IMHO. Styles may change over the time, but the principals of the biblical teachings DO NOT CHANGE. That's another proof God's Words are forevermore as written in the Scripture many times.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Did you read the Francis Chan link I sent?

What you are saying is what I'm saying.

I don't agree that the text of Leviticus was meant to point out that homosexuality is a sin, but acts that both gay and straight people do is a sin. So yes, it teaches us that God forgives us for sinning... but it's not written to lay out that being gay is sinful. If a gay couple are loyal to each other, are they sinners? Yet, they are probably looked down on more than a hetero couple where one or both partners are unfaithful. And again, context... thousands of years ago, man may have thought being gay was a sin, so of course what he records in the Bible is a reflection of that.

I knew you would bring up the references in the NT, but if we were to get technical, those were all examples of men with men. So again, do lesbians get a pass?

And it is debatable whether the references were actually to homosexuality:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_the_New_Testament

The references to homosexuality itself in the New Testament hinge on the interpretation of three specific Greek words: arsenokoit?s (????????????), malakos (???????), and porneia (???????) and its cognates. While it is not disputed that the three Greek words apply to sexual relations between men (and possibly between women), academics interpret the relevant passages as a prohibition against pederasty or prostitution rather than homosexuality per se, while other scholars have presented counter arguments. The historical context of the passages has also been a subject of debate.

So to me, while you think it references out certain acts as sinful, to me, these were just examples of what the times considered sinful but it's not a condemnation on a segment of the population but rather to illustrate God's love.

It's ironic when I post things about Covid based on science, data, and facts, you say there could be other ways to see it... but you adhere to there is no other way to read the Bible.

It's this same rigidity that, in my opinion, hurts Christianity. You may call it "cool", I just think it's called being accepting... just like Jesus taught is in how he was with the Samaritan woman and many others.

And I'll repeat, maybe I'm entirely wrong and overly optimistic... but that's the also why I believe in God.

 

[Mety]

Did you read the Francis Chan link I sent?

What you are saying is what I'm saying.

Yes, I read. There are things I don't agree with Chan in general, but that's another topic. He sounds mostly correct here though.

I don't agree that the text of Leviticus was meant to point out that homosexuality is a sin, but acts that both gay and straight people do is a sin. So yes, it teaches us that God forgives us for sinning... but it's not written to lay out that being gay is sinful. If a gay couple are loyal to each other, are they sinners? Yet, they are probably looked down on more than a hetero couple where one or both partners are unfaithful. And again, context... thousands of years ago, man may have thought being gay was a sin, so of course what he records in the Bible is a reflection of that.

Actually, the reason why God let Israel know that homosexuality was a sin is because people didn't know if that really was a sin or not. There was no clear line between right and wrong. Everybody else was doing whatever they wanted. Even Moses killed someone out of anger way before he got the Law from God. Being loyal to each other in relationship is one thing, but if you were to say that to the sexual relationship between a human and an animal or things like incests like you mentioned, wouldn't there have to be some kind of guideline from God? This is exactly why you need to know the cultures back then. You might think people were so much more conservative and same-sex was forbidden and all that, but it was not. They were even more open for things we can't even imagine now days. Again, that's why God had to give His rules and regulations.

I knew you would bring up the references in the NT, but if we were to get technical, those were all examples of men with men. So again, do lesbians get a pass?

No, lesbians do not get a pass. There are things laid out for females in this regard as well. And God is not playing games with such words play here. I'm sure you know that too.

And it is debatable whether the references were actually to homosexuality:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_the_New_Testament

The references to homosexuality itself in the New Testament hinge on the interpretation of three specific Greek words: arsenokoit?s (????????????), malakos (???????), and porneia (???????) and its cognates. While it is not disputed that the three Greek words apply to sexual relations between men (and possibly between women), academics interpret the relevant passages as a prohibition against pederasty or prostitution rather than homosexuality per se, while other scholars have presented counter arguments. The historical context of the passages has also been a subject of debate.

So to me, while you think it references out certain acts as sinful, to me, these were just examples of what the times considered sinful but it's not a condemnation on a segment of the population but rather to illustrate God's love.

I think we're on the same page that The Bible is speaking about God's love. I'm just in a position where God's love and righteousness can be shown only when there is a contrast. That is our sins and homosexuality being one of them. If there is no need for forgiveness, then there is no need for God. It seems like you're in a position where these things were only sinful at the time these were written and do not apply anymore. But I'm not sure if such "changing-over-the-period-of-time" God is something I would believe as God. Like I said, the style of representation of God might change, but God Himself does not change. He has the absolute standards that is forever. To me, that's God the Bible says. You might not think that way though.

It's ironic when I post things about Covid based on science, data, and facts, you say there could be other ways to see it... but you adhere to there is no other way to read the Bible.

It's this same rigidity that, in my opinion, hurts Christianity. You may call it "cool", I just think it's called being accepting... just like Jesus taught is in how he was with the Samaritan woman and many others.

And I'll repeat, maybe I'm entirely wrong and overly optimistic... but that's the also why I believe in God.

You're right. I'm not in a clear position where we are for COVID-19. I don't have enough information on lots of things in life. But the Bible is clear and says it is not written that is hard to understand. It is written in a way ANYONE can understand. I can explain more and give you verses on this if you're interested. Only if you have a heart of willingness to accept His Words as is, Holy Spirit will let you know how simple It actually is.

It seems like you don't see homosexual relationships (as long as each are loyal) as a sin. Is gay divorce a sin then? The Bible doesn't say that specifically so it must not be a sin? I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic, but some of your views sound like such.

I'm glad you bring a Samaritan woman's example. You know what Jesus did when He met her? He exposed of her sinful life of stealing 5 husbands that were not her spouse. You know what she said then? She admitted and was actually very glad He saw through her life that she even called Him, "Can this be the Christ?" She ended up inviting all others in town so they all came and believed Him. Your sinful past can be and will be used as spreading the gospel. That's almost always how God works. God accepting you does require your recognition of sin. Again, there has to be something to be forgiven for to start with. That's much more optimistic God since He'll forgive you no matter you have done.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

On divorce... I would consider whatever either did to cause it a sin. But again, those are finite actions... a divorce is not who you are.

There is a difference between calling an action a sin and calling someone's identity a sin. Is being Native American a sin? Is being a female a sin? Is being short a sin?

 

[Mety]

On divorce... I would consider whatever either did to cause it a sin. But again, those are finite actions... a divorce is not who you are.

There is a difference between calling an action a sin and calling someone's identity a sin. Is being Native American a sin? Is being a female a sin? Is being short a sin?

Being you is a sin.