irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
But is being you an abomination? I guess if you want to be "bothered" by the Bible. 
God?
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Yes, being me is a sin. Being me is an abomination to God. Haven't you got that yet from what I've been saying? It doesn't matter if it's me or you or someone who's divorced or gay.
We need to replace ME with JESUS CHRIST. That is what it means to have Him our LORD. Until that takes places, being any of us is an abomination to God.
Did you translate that from the Bible? Because that's not what your Leviticus verse said. This is what I mean... not sure if you get my point but it's fine.
That is what Leviticus is saying. Please read what I wrote above. Kinda lengthy but I see you?re a fast reader.
Again, there are different takes between you and I. I believe God literally meant what He said while giving us forgiveness. It seems like you believe God didn?t really mean what He said because He forgives anyways.
Both seem like the same since His forgiveness is there, but I think the difference is huge since one is seeing God?s Holiness and another is not. You may think your view makes God much better and friendlier, but the danger is that it skips God?s perfect standard.
God shows His judgment throughout the Bible. It?s not that God likes to kill those who don?t obey. He always allows time for repentance to not just Israel but also other nations even in the time of Joshua. You can see that through Gibronites. Those who ended up with God?s judgment are the ones who didn?t ask God for forgiveness for their sins, not those who didn?t follow the Law. I hope you get the difference.
No. I believe what *I* think God says, I don't believe what *you* think God says.
I never said anything about making God friendlier... making the message pastors and churches give... yes... I prefer that instead of "bothersome".
How am I skipping God's perfect standard? No one can live up to it, even Jesus faltered at one time. The question is what exactly is that standard. But in the end, does it matter, because no one can measure up right? He wants us to be the best we can be, and only he can judge that, not any man who translated words from various languages to make it seem like a certain identity is an "abomination".
Don't we all end up with God's judgement, whether or not we ask for forgiveness or follow his laws?
Aside from translating some words (for now), I'm saying God literally meant every word He said. You're saying God didn't literally mean every word He said. Let me know if that's not what you're saying.
I don't think Jesus ever faltered. Please explain further on this before I make an assumption where in the Bible you're talking about.
God does not look for your trying best as that's the teaching of every other religion. His standard is perfect, as written throughout in His Laws and also given by Jesus Himself and Apostles, that no person can live up to it like you said. For example, His Law commands us not to lie. Have you ever lied? Everyone has. Another example, John wrote we're not believers if we hate or does not love someone especially among believers. Are we all loving each other all the time? I don't think so. That perfect standard is there so you know God has the perfect standard which makes it clear there has to be forgiveness. God wants you to admit you're an abomination and sinful, but believe Jesus took care of it. God does not want you to try your best since no one can meet that perfect standard anyways. Why does God accept you in spite of your sinfulness? Your view seems to skip that *why* by saying it's God's call which is right in a way but God did give us the reason why. And that why is what makes the foundation of our belief. Without a firm foundation, anything including faith is in danger. BTW, if you still don't know that why. I can explain on that. Just let me know.
The point of believing Jesus washed our sins away is because that makes us "sinless." Sinless won't end up with God's judgment.
I *think* I understand what you're saying. Well, you don't think I do so maybe you can explain more simple like you would to a 5-yr-old instead of totally just ignoring all my questions?
I think you and I are saying pretty much the same thing in terms of speaking about God's love. But you're saying you don't believe what God called sinful and abomination including homosexuality (or incest for your preference) doesn't really apply as a sin anymore while I take as it still does. My view is that if those are still sin, then that makes God a much bigger forgiver/accepter since there are much more to forgive. Your view is... what?
And why is this important if God provides forgiveness? Well, my view makes it clear everyone is a sinner so there is understanding of grace. Your (or what I think as your) view doesn't call out anyone as sinful so why in need of forgiveness and God at all? So those who don't accept God's call for repentance to begin with cannot really understand God's grace and while you might not do that, that might put many people in danger of ending up rejecting Jesus as their savior since they don't need anyone to forgive them. You may say we all need God's forgiveness, but what you're saying from the Leviticus example and more sounds like we don't. Just trying to be logic from what we've been writing here. And one thing to clear just in case, my view isn't saying I get to condemn homosexual or incest people. I just get to know what God's standard is in terms of those issues or any issue to be exact. Hope you don't get confused here.
BTW, you once said my view doesn't seem to accept everyone while yours does including accepting me. What does that exactly mean? How are you accepting me if you're not accepting what I'm saying?
You still didn't answer my questions. Maybe you didn't ignore. You just didn't answer? ;D
I'm fine with just getting the overall concept idea, but I think we should read from God's perspective, not our or in human's perspective since we tend to bring the overall standard so low.
One of the main things of being Christian is that you strive to live no longer of yourself. Someone who admits his sin of homosexuality who no longer wants to live a life of his own is one example. But since your theology (or what *I* think of your theology) says homosexuality is not a sin so you might not agree with such view.
God doesn't want us to do our best as I've said in the previously reply. God wants us to completely get rid of ourselves so ourselves can be replaced with Jesus Christ, but you and I know we cannot do that getting rid of ourselves completely. That's why we're sinful whether you're homosexual or not. The only thing we can really *do* is to ask God to forgive us in the Name of Jesus. The rest is up to God. I'll be talking about the proof of our assurance of salvation next time.
You said a long time ago what if after you die God shows up and shows Jesus to believe like giving a second chance or something, right? But those who didn't ask for forgiveness while they were alive meaning those who felt didn't see a need to be forgiven won't see the need again then either, don't you think? Well, a similar example is said by Jesus also. I see this as one of the reasons why pastors, churches, and any Christian should speak of this sin and forgiveness issue as soon as we can. Maybe the word "bothersome" is bothering you. I'll try say it as "truthful" from now on.
I'm sorry if the way I'm phrasing my posts sounded like that, but it's not my personal view only. It's what most biblical scholars and teachers who respectfully study and present their doctrines to the church (and public) believe. Yes, there are many interpretations and some different views on certain things by different teachers, but those who try to maintain in its puritan view are what I come to agree more and more as I keep reading the Bible. You can check out "Five solae of the Protestant Reformation" if you want to know more.
As much as I don't know about you, you also don't know if I'm Hebrew or someone who's been to bible colleges. Those are things you assumed of me someone who's not. If I've been to a bible college or seminary or a pastor, does that give you more credibility from me? I believe I already mentioned I'm not a pastor but do serve in our church. Just asking since you pointed those out.
Christianity is a belief. The belief has laid out what's right and wrong. What's sin and what's not. Many other religions are sort of reconstructing their religious systems in a way that there is no real right or wrong. Everything-and-everyone-is-acceptable kind of approach as long as it's beneficial to me. That's actually a part of what Jewish leaders and Rabbis were teaching when Jesus came which He rebuked them of. Such view makes me think twice since that has no real belief then because it's just all about making more positive profit for me in disguise of helping others.
I know your argument is that how we, the common folks, know what God meant as right and wrong. I believe that's where the Spirit of God gives us discernment. I really believe the Holy Spirit was doing that Reformation from the apostate Catholic system. I really believe God arranged those 66 books in separate chapters and verses in the Holy Bible in a way we, the common folks, can have access to and read so that we can know what God sees right and wrong. I pray the Holy Spirit gives you and I the same message of the gospel of Jesus Christ one day.
I'm simply saying the Spirit of God is the One who gives the right interpretation. The word interpretation is not really that ideal anyways, since the Bible is pretty straightforward.
I do accept you. That's why I keep posting replies back and forth with you. Yes, no one is absolutely right, no one. Only God is. And He gave everyone His Words. (You might be rolling your eyes now lol.)
Anyways, maybe check this video. It's an audio since there is no real video footage.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-asOl75u6as
It talks about the same thing I'm saying but much better.
irvinehomeowner said:But is being you an abomination? I guess if you want to be "bothered" by the Bible.
Yes, being me is a sin. Being me is an abomination to God. Haven't you got that yet from what I've been saying? It doesn't matter if it's me or you or someone who's divorced or gay.
We need to replace ME with JESUS CHRIST. That is what it means to have Him our LORD. Until that takes places, being any of us is an abomination to God.
The definition of love is that God gave His only Son to us. The definition of love among the church means that we give everything to each other as God gave His everything, His only Son, Jesus. (just reiterating what I've posted previously)
Now, what does it mean when you say taking the Bible "as is?" Let's take a look at examples. Here are some words Jesus said in different occasions -
"And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire."
"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.?
So are we supposed to tear our eye and throw it away? Are we not supposed to be rich at all? Are we supposed to take His Words "as is?"
The answer is yes, but no.
Yes, because what He says is true. Someone with haughty eyes/mind can't enter the Kingdom of God. Someone who is rich would most likely feel not in need of a Savior since he/she got everything in this life. But here comes that "no" part of the answers.
No, because NO ONE can enter the Kingdom of God anyways. When Jesus came on to this earth 2000+ years ago, He didn't just ignore all the Laws people were supposed to follow. He completed it. But He raised the bar or the standard higher than what people thought. He was simply saying, all those who thought they were following the Laws fine were actually not even close to really follow. He was giving all these examples of what sounds impossible. The good Samaritan example, what Jesus commanded of that rich young ruler, turning the other cheek command, and so many teachings He taught were just humanly not possible scenarios we can actually put into actions. He was showing the Word of God as is but even in a higher standard. So what was Jesus really teaching then? Here comes His grace.
Jesus was simply saying we, on our own efforts or any good work, cannot earn salvation so He was simply inviting us to just BELIEVE. Believe that Jesus is the Son of God who the Father sent who wants to pardon all our sins. The wages of sin is death so God is letting His Son take care of that on our behalf so that we can enter the Kingdom of God. No, you don't need to tear your eye. No, you don't need to actually intentionally become poor. No, you don't actually have to stone those who don't follow the Law. You just need to admit your shortcoming and believe. Believing means you let go of your old self who tried to be all that good in order to earn salvation. Believing means you let Jesus be your LORD. Believing means you repent of your sins. If that believing really takes place in you, you'll stop having sinful mind and eyes. You'll stop trying to earn all the money in place of God. You'll stop trying to be good all on the outside. You might even end up being like that good Samaritan.
This is what it means to take Bible as is. You don't literally stone someone who don't follow the sabbath. You see God's standards and find yourself impossible following them all since you're not holy but sinful. Thus you simply ask God for help. And that help already came, Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Please take that as is for that is what the entire Bible is teaching and you'll be free from the bondage of sin. Don't fall for the wide gate which does not take the Bible as is and start adding or subtracting things trying to fit into the current time throughout the history.
Now, what does it mean when you say taking the Bible "as is?" Let's take a look at examples. Here are some words Jesus said in different occasions -
"And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire."
"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.?
So are we supposed to tear our eye and throw it away? Are we not supposed to be rich at all? Are we supposed to take His Words "as is?"
The answer is yes, but no.
Yes, because what He says is true. Someone with haughty eyes/mind can't enter the Kingdom of God. Someone who is rich would most likely feel not in need of a Savior since he/she got everything in this life. But here comes that "no" part of the answers.
No, because NO ONE can enter the Kingdom of God anyways. When Jesus came on to this earth 2000+ years ago, He didn't just ignore all the Laws people were supposed to follow. He completed it. But He raised the bar or the standard higher than what people thought. He was simply saying, all those who thought they were following the Laws fine were actually not even close to really follow. He was giving all these examples of what sounds impossible. The good Samaritan example, what Jesus commanded of that rich young ruler, turning the other cheek command, and so many teachings He taught were just humanly not possible scenarios we can actually put into actions. He was showing the Word of God as is but even in a higher standard. So what was Jesus really teaching then? Here comes His grace.
Jesus was simply saying we, on our own efforts or any good work, cannot earn salvation so He was simply inviting us to just BELIEVE. Believe that Jesus is the Son of God who the Father sent who wants to pardon all our sins. The wages of sin is death so God is letting His Son take care of that on our behalf so that we can enter the Kingdom of God. No, you don't need to tear your eye. No, you don't need to actually intentionally become poor. No, you don't actually have to stone those who don't follow the Law. You just need to admit your shortcoming and believe. Believing means you let go of your old self who tried to be all that good in order to earn salvation. Believing means you let Jesus be your LORD. Believing means you repent of your sins. If that believing really takes place in you, you'll stop having sinful mind and eyes. You'll stop trying to earn all the money in place of God. You'll stop trying to be good all on the outside. You might even end up being like that good Samaritan.
This is what it means to take Bible as is. You don't literally stone someone who don't follow the sabbath. You see God's standards and find yourself impossible following them all since you're not holy but sinful. Thus you simply ask God for help. And that help already came, Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Please take that as is for that is what the entire Bible is teaching and you'll be free from the bondage of sin. Don't fall for the wide gate which does not take the Bible as is and start adding or subtracting things trying to fit into the current time throughout the history.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
Mety said:irvinehomeowner said:But is being you an abomination? I guess if you want to be "bothered" by the Bible.
Yes, being me is a sin. Being me is an abomination to God. Haven't you got that yet from what I've been saying? It doesn't matter if it's me or you or someone who's divorced or gay.
We need to replace ME with JESUS CHRIST. That is what it means to have Him our LORD. Until that takes places, being any of us is an abomination to God.
Did you translate that from the Bible? Because that's not what your Leviticus verse said. This is what I mean... not sure if you get my point but it's fine.
irvinehomeowner said:Mety said:irvinehomeowner said:But is being you an abomination? I guess if you want to be "bothered" by the Bible.
Yes, being me is a sin. Being me is an abomination to God. Haven't you got that yet from what I've been saying? It doesn't matter if it's me or you or someone who's divorced or gay.
We need to replace ME with JESUS CHRIST. That is what it means to have Him our LORD. Until that takes places, being any of us is an abomination to God.
Did you translate that from the Bible? Because that's not what your Leviticus verse said. This is what I mean... not sure if you get my point but it's fine.
That is what Leviticus is saying. Please read what I wrote above. Kinda lengthy but I see you?re a fast reader.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
I do read what you write, I don't think you totally do the same to what I post:
This is what Francis Chan was saying about studying the Bible.
Just like you don't take out your eye or stone someone... I don't necessarily think the Bible meant homosexuality is an abomination (and it's not even clear if it was talking about homosexuality or incest).
None of that is to pass judgement on who is an abomination or to say same gender relationships are a sin.
At least that's my take... it's similar to how I think non-Christians can be saved. In the end... that's God's call.
Mety said:
This is what Francis Chan was saying about studying the Bible.
Just like you don't take out your eye or stone someone... I don't necessarily think the Bible meant homosexuality is an abomination (and it's not even clear if it was talking about homosexuality or incest).
None of that is to pass judgement on who is an abomination or to say same gender relationships are a sin.
At least that's my take... it's similar to how I think non-Christians can be saved. In the end... that's God's call.
irvinehomeowner said:
Again, there are different takes between you and I. I believe God literally meant what He said while giving us forgiveness. It seems like you believe God didn?t really mean what He said because He forgives anyways.
Both seem like the same since His forgiveness is there, but I think the difference is huge since one is seeing God?s Holiness and another is not. You may think your view makes God much better and friendlier, but the danger is that it skips God?s perfect standard.
God shows His judgment throughout the Bible. It?s not that God likes to kill those who don?t obey. He always allows time for repentance to not just Israel but also other nations even in the time of Joshua. You can see that through Gibronites. Those who ended up with God?s judgment are the ones who didn?t ask God for forgiveness for their sins, not those who didn?t follow the Law. I hope you get the difference.
BTW, just wanted to say, thanks for reading what I write. I know some are super long and annoying so I really am trying to work on making my writings short and more simple, but if you and anyone is taking time to read all those, I really appreciate that.
I may not read everything you write on other threads, but I do read everything you or anyone writes when there?s back and forth replies. There might be time I don?t fully understand what you intent to say, but I don?t skip your writings so please take my word for it.
I may not read everything you write on other threads, but I do read everything you or anyone writes when there?s back and forth replies. There might be time I don?t fully understand what you intent to say, but I don?t skip your writings so please take my word for it.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
Mety said:
No. I believe what *I* think God says, I don't believe what *you* think God says.
I never said anything about making God friendlier... making the message pastors and churches give... yes... I prefer that instead of "bothersome".
How am I skipping God's perfect standard? No one can live up to it, even Jesus faltered at one time. The question is what exactly is that standard. But in the end, does it matter, because no one can measure up right? He wants us to be the best we can be, and only he can judge that, not any man who translated words from various languages to make it seem like a certain identity is an "abomination".
Don't we all end up with God's judgement, whether or not we ask for forgiveness or follow his laws?
irvinehomeowner said:
Aside from translating some words (for now), I'm saying God literally meant every word He said. You're saying God didn't literally mean every word He said. Let me know if that's not what you're saying.
irvinehomeowner said:
I don't think Jesus ever faltered. Please explain further on this before I make an assumption where in the Bible you're talking about.
God does not look for your trying best as that's the teaching of every other religion. His standard is perfect, as written throughout in His Laws and also given by Jesus Himself and Apostles, that no person can live up to it like you said. For example, His Law commands us not to lie. Have you ever lied? Everyone has. Another example, John wrote we're not believers if we hate or does not love someone especially among believers. Are we all loving each other all the time? I don't think so. That perfect standard is there so you know God has the perfect standard which makes it clear there has to be forgiveness. God wants you to admit you're an abomination and sinful, but believe Jesus took care of it. God does not want you to try your best since no one can meet that perfect standard anyways. Why does God accept you in spite of your sinfulness? Your view seems to skip that *why* by saying it's God's call which is right in a way but God did give us the reason why. And that why is what makes the foundation of our belief. Without a firm foundation, anything including faith is in danger. BTW, if you still don't know that why. I can explain on that. Just let me know.
irvinehomeowner said:
The point of believing Jesus washed our sins away is because that makes us "sinless." Sinless won't end up with God's judgment.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
You're word smithing again... so I'll just stop the conversation until you understand what I'm saying.
irvinehomeowner said:
I *think* I understand what you're saying. Well, you don't think I do so maybe you can explain more simple like you would to a 5-yr-old instead of totally just ignoring all my questions?
I think you and I are saying pretty much the same thing in terms of speaking about God's love. But you're saying you don't believe what God called sinful and abomination including homosexuality (or incest for your preference) doesn't really apply as a sin anymore while I take as it still does. My view is that if those are still sin, then that makes God a much bigger forgiver/accepter since there are much more to forgive. Your view is... what?
And why is this important if God provides forgiveness? Well, my view makes it clear everyone is a sinner so there is understanding of grace. Your (or what I think as your) view doesn't call out anyone as sinful so why in need of forgiveness and God at all? So those who don't accept God's call for repentance to begin with cannot really understand God's grace and while you might not do that, that might put many people in danger of ending up rejecting Jesus as their savior since they don't need anyone to forgive them. You may say we all need God's forgiveness, but what you're saying from the Leviticus example and more sounds like we don't. Just trying to be logic from what we've been writing here. And one thing to clear just in case, my view isn't saying I get to condemn homosexual or incest people. I just get to know what God's standard is in terms of those issues or any issue to be exact. Hope you don't get confused here.
BTW, you once said my view doesn't seem to accept everyone while yours does including accepting me. What does that exactly mean? How are you accepting me if you're not accepting what I'm saying?
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
I don't think I have ignored any questions, you just ignore my answers.
It's simple... I quoted that up in the Francis Chan quote. The Bible is not exact... while infallible, it was translated by men, thus the details are subject to interpretation. I don't feel God is worried about the details, just the overall concept. Which is why I don't think God calls out homosexuality specifically as a sin... I can word smith too and just say isn't that "love your neighbor"? Isn't that what God wanted? The Bible may say that similar acts are sinful, but it doesn't mean that they can't be Christians. There are many churches that say you can't be gay and Christian, this is what I disagree with.
You even said it yourself:
What do you mean by "allow it"? That kind of statement is exactly what I'm worried about.
Now I know you come from the stance that God gave the Bible to man so there are no mistakes, no interpretations... it says exactly what his will is. I agree... just not in the details.
And you talk about perfect standard, but that is unattainable, so what does it matter what the nuances are. God wants us to do our best. We will fail, and he will forgive. A Christian lying and an atheist not believing in God are the same "level" of sin if in the end they accept Jesus.
It's simple... I quoted that up in the Francis Chan quote. The Bible is not exact... while infallible, it was translated by men, thus the details are subject to interpretation. I don't feel God is worried about the details, just the overall concept. Which is why I don't think God calls out homosexuality specifically as a sin... I can word smith too and just say isn't that "love your neighbor"? Isn't that what God wanted? The Bible may say that similar acts are sinful, but it doesn't mean that they can't be Christians. There are many churches that say you can't be gay and Christian, this is what I disagree with.
You even said it yourself:
What do you mean by "allow it"? That kind of statement is exactly what I'm worried about.
Now I know you come from the stance that God gave the Bible to man so there are no mistakes, no interpretations... it says exactly what his will is. I agree... just not in the details.
And you talk about perfect standard, but that is unattainable, so what does it matter what the nuances are. God wants us to do our best. We will fail, and he will forgive. A Christian lying and an atheist not believing in God are the same "level" of sin if in the end they accept Jesus.
irvinehomeowner said:I don't think I have ignored any questions, you just ignore my answers.
It's simple... I quoted that up in the Francis Chan quote. The Bible is not exact... while infallible, it was translated by men, thus the details are subject to interpretation. I don't feel God is worried about the details, just the overall concept. Which is why I don't think God calls out homosexuality specifically as a sin... I can word smith too and just say isn't that "love your neighbor"? Isn't that what God wanted? The Bible may say that similar acts are sinful, but it doesn't mean that they can't be Christians. There are many churches that say you can't be gay and Christian, this is what I disagree with.
You even said it yourself:
What do you mean by "allow it"? That kind of statement is exactly what I'm worried about.
Now I know you come from the stance that God gave the Bible to man so there are no mistakes, no interpretations... it says exactly what his will is. I agree... just not in the details.
And you talk about perfect standard, but that is unattainable, so what does it matter what the nuances are. God wants us to do our best. We will fail, and he will forgive. A Christian lying and an atheist not believing in God are the same "level" of sin if in the end they accept Jesus.
You still didn't answer my questions. Maybe you didn't ignore. You just didn't answer? ;D
I'm fine with just getting the overall concept idea, but I think we should read from God's perspective, not our or in human's perspective since we tend to bring the overall standard so low.
One of the main things of being Christian is that you strive to live no longer of yourself. Someone who admits his sin of homosexuality who no longer wants to live a life of his own is one example. But since your theology (or what *I* think of your theology) says homosexuality is not a sin so you might not agree with such view.
God doesn't want us to do our best as I've said in the previously reply. God wants us to completely get rid of ourselves so ourselves can be replaced with Jesus Christ, but you and I know we cannot do that getting rid of ourselves completely. That's why we're sinful whether you're homosexual or not. The only thing we can really *do* is to ask God to forgive us in the Name of Jesus. The rest is up to God. I'll be talking about the proof of our assurance of salvation next time.
You said a long time ago what if after you die God shows up and shows Jesus to believe like giving a second chance or something, right? But those who didn't ask for forgiveness while they were alive meaning those who felt didn't see a need to be forgiven won't see the need again then either, don't you think? Well, a similar example is said by Jesus also. I see this as one of the reasons why pastors, churches, and any Christian should speak of this sin and forgiveness issue as soon as we can. Maybe the word "bothersome" is bothering you. I'll try say it as "truthful" from now on.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
I think what you are missing is neither of us know exactly what God?s standard is because we are both just human.
Again, the way you phrase your posts is that you are right and I am wrong.
The way I am phrasing mine is that we can both be right or both be wrong.
What makes you think your perspective is correct or any more biblical than mine? Are you a pastor? Have you been to bible college or seminary? We are just two randoms on a semi-anonymous forum.
Again, the way you phrase your posts is that you are right and I am wrong.
The way I am phrasing mine is that we can both be right or both be wrong.
What makes you think your perspective is correct or any more biblical than mine? Are you a pastor? Have you been to bible college or seminary? We are just two randoms on a semi-anonymous forum.
irvinehomeowner said:I think what you are missing is neither of us know exactly what God?s standard is because we are both just human.
Again, the way you phrase your posts is that you are right and I am wrong.
The way I am phrasing mine is that we can both be right or both be wrong.
What makes you think your perspective is correct or any more biblical than mine? Are you a pastor? Have you been to bible college or seminary? We are just two randoms on a semi-anonymous forum.
I'm sorry if the way I'm phrasing my posts sounded like that, but it's not my personal view only. It's what most biblical scholars and teachers who respectfully study and present their doctrines to the church (and public) believe. Yes, there are many interpretations and some different views on certain things by different teachers, but those who try to maintain in its puritan view are what I come to agree more and more as I keep reading the Bible. You can check out "Five solae of the Protestant Reformation" if you want to know more.
As much as I don't know about you, you also don't know if I'm Hebrew or someone who's been to bible colleges. Those are things you assumed of me someone who's not. If I've been to a bible college or seminary or a pastor, does that give you more credibility from me? I believe I already mentioned I'm not a pastor but do serve in our church. Just asking since you pointed those out.
Christianity is a belief. The belief has laid out what's right and wrong. What's sin and what's not. Many other religions are sort of reconstructing their religious systems in a way that there is no real right or wrong. Everything-and-everyone-is-acceptable kind of approach as long as it's beneficial to me. That's actually a part of what Jewish leaders and Rabbis were teaching when Jesus came which He rebuked them of. Such view makes me think twice since that has no real belief then because it's just all about making more positive profit for me in disguise of helping others.
I know your argument is that how we, the common folks, know what God meant as right and wrong. I believe that's where the Spirit of God gives us discernment. I really believe the Holy Spirit was doing that Reformation from the apostate Catholic system. I really believe God arranged those 66 books in separate chapters and verses in the Holy Bible in a way we, the common folks, can have access to and read so that we can know what God sees right and wrong. I pray the Holy Spirit gives you and I the same message of the gospel of Jesus Christ one day.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
There you go again. What makes your "Spirit of God" any different from mine?
And you can't say "my personal view" and then in the next sentence say "most biblical scholars and teachers". Who knows, their interpretations could also be erroneous. Everyone thought the world was flat at one time.
I'm not trying to convince you that I'm right or that you're wrong... I'm just trying to say that no one is absolutely right... no one... only God. That's where I accept you and you don't accept me (but maybe you are).
And you can't say "my personal view" and then in the next sentence say "most biblical scholars and teachers". Who knows, their interpretations could also be erroneous. Everyone thought the world was flat at one time.
I'm not trying to convince you that I'm right or that you're wrong... I'm just trying to say that no one is absolutely right... no one... only God. That's where I accept you and you don't accept me (but maybe you are).
irvinehomeowner said:
I'm simply saying the Spirit of God is the One who gives the right interpretation. The word interpretation is not really that ideal anyways, since the Bible is pretty straightforward.
I do accept you. That's why I keep posting replies back and forth with you. Yes, no one is absolutely right, no one. Only God is. And He gave everyone His Words. (You might be rolling your eyes now lol.)
Anyways, maybe check this video. It's an audio since there is no real video footage.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-asOl75u6as
It talks about the same thing I'm saying but much better.
How do we, Christians, know if we're really saved?
The only clear proof you can have as a real believer is "love." What is love? I've posted about this, but I'll write briefly again. This is love - God gave His only Son to us to forgive of our sin. That means we're now adopted as the sinless children of God if we've believed God sent His Son for us. This is what children of God do - They share this message and share everything (time, gifts/talents, money, possessions, forgiving, even their lives) among those who believe this message. These two come to fulfill the greatest commandments - 1. To love God with all heart, soul and strength and 2. To love your neighbor as yourself.
However, the reality is that even if we're Christians, we sometimes don't find ourselves always loving God and loving other believers. This is because while our spirit might have been made sinless by the blood of Jesus in God's forgiveness, we're still in our sinful flesh living in this world. That is why we're poor in spirit, hungry for more righteousness and also sometimes mournful and meek since we find ourselves not completely living up to the standard of God in our flesh yet (Matthew 5). The day will come though when our body is either transformed as or resurrected with the perfect body like Christ's, but until then we're humbly but joyfully waiting in such hope.
Although we don't find ourselves loving always perfectly, we still have this desire to be always loving. That's the difference between believers and non-believers, between the saved and the unredeemed. This is why no one can really tell externally if you're saved or not except God and maybe yourself. Some people clearly show they reject God, but I'm talking about those who actually look "good" in churches. Some people might look fine and look like loving on the outside, but God fully knows if their hearts are genuine or hypocritical. No one among the Twelve knew Judas Iscariot would betray Jesus until that very night he actually did so.
So those who have this desire to love God and others are the ones who have the Spirit of God residing in them. The Holy Spirit is more common Name we know as. Those who have the Holy Spirit are the ones who are really saved according to the Bible. There are some ways you can know if you have the Holy Spirit or not, but one of the fastest ways is to look at where you're going when you're in trouble. In times of trials, do you run to someone or something else instead of God? Or do you call Abba (Daddy), Father and cry out for help directly to God Himself? David did the latter when he was in all sorts of troubles, but experienced God's deliverance as a result. Jesus also cried to the Father the night before He was crucified. Although His cry was because of His desire not to be separated from God at all (since death separates one from God), Jesus still showed us how the real believer always runs to God directly calling Him, Daddy. Dad will come and help. Abba Father did send angels to comfort Jesus and also strengthened Him by the hope of resurrection, the Father and the Son being one again. It is the Holy Spirit who calls out in us at such times (Romans 8:26). The Holy Spirit intercedes for us, the children of God, by calling Daddy for help.
While there could be countless evidences we can tell if we're really saved or not I wanted to share some from what I've gotten from the Bible so far and also from my personal life. Do we love God? Do we love one another? Do we find ourselves in agony of not always loving perfectly? Do we hope for the day that we will love God and one another perfectly finally? Do we run to God when we're in trouble? Do we call Him Daddy? Even if your answers to these are "no," God still wants you to know there is His forgiveness and will to adopt you as sons and daughters of God. That is by believing God's one and only Son, Jesus. His perfect love displayed in perfect forgiveness in Jesus is still available. You do have to hear the Word of God or read the Bible to know more about this love in detail. It's not something you hear or read once and be done with. Christian faith is something you do and you are as a lifelong process as in relationship with God. By believing His love though, you're now adopted as the sinless children of God. That's the beginning with a firm assurance of salvation.
edit: some typo. maybe more coming...
The only clear proof you can have as a real believer is "love." What is love? I've posted about this, but I'll write briefly again. This is love - God gave His only Son to us to forgive of our sin. That means we're now adopted as the sinless children of God if we've believed God sent His Son for us. This is what children of God do - They share this message and share everything (time, gifts/talents, money, possessions, forgiving, even their lives) among those who believe this message. These two come to fulfill the greatest commandments - 1. To love God with all heart, soul and strength and 2. To love your neighbor as yourself.
However, the reality is that even if we're Christians, we sometimes don't find ourselves always loving God and loving other believers. This is because while our spirit might have been made sinless by the blood of Jesus in God's forgiveness, we're still in our sinful flesh living in this world. That is why we're poor in spirit, hungry for more righteousness and also sometimes mournful and meek since we find ourselves not completely living up to the standard of God in our flesh yet (Matthew 5). The day will come though when our body is either transformed as or resurrected with the perfect body like Christ's, but until then we're humbly but joyfully waiting in such hope.
Although we don't find ourselves loving always perfectly, we still have this desire to be always loving. That's the difference between believers and non-believers, between the saved and the unredeemed. This is why no one can really tell externally if you're saved or not except God and maybe yourself. Some people clearly show they reject God, but I'm talking about those who actually look "good" in churches. Some people might look fine and look like loving on the outside, but God fully knows if their hearts are genuine or hypocritical. No one among the Twelve knew Judas Iscariot would betray Jesus until that very night he actually did so.
So those who have this desire to love God and others are the ones who have the Spirit of God residing in them. The Holy Spirit is more common Name we know as. Those who have the Holy Spirit are the ones who are really saved according to the Bible. There are some ways you can know if you have the Holy Spirit or not, but one of the fastest ways is to look at where you're going when you're in trouble. In times of trials, do you run to someone or something else instead of God? Or do you call Abba (Daddy), Father and cry out for help directly to God Himself? David did the latter when he was in all sorts of troubles, but experienced God's deliverance as a result. Jesus also cried to the Father the night before He was crucified. Although His cry was because of His desire not to be separated from God at all (since death separates one from God), Jesus still showed us how the real believer always runs to God directly calling Him, Daddy. Dad will come and help. Abba Father did send angels to comfort Jesus and also strengthened Him by the hope of resurrection, the Father and the Son being one again. It is the Holy Spirit who calls out in us at such times (Romans 8:26). The Holy Spirit intercedes for us, the children of God, by calling Daddy for help.
While there could be countless evidences we can tell if we're really saved or not I wanted to share some from what I've gotten from the Bible so far and also from my personal life. Do we love God? Do we love one another? Do we find ourselves in agony of not always loving perfectly? Do we hope for the day that we will love God and one another perfectly finally? Do we run to God when we're in trouble? Do we call Him Daddy? Even if your answers to these are "no," God still wants you to know there is His forgiveness and will to adopt you as sons and daughters of God. That is by believing God's one and only Son, Jesus. His perfect love displayed in perfect forgiveness in Jesus is still available. You do have to hear the Word of God or read the Bible to know more about this love in detail. It's not something you hear or read once and be done with. Christian faith is something you do and you are as a lifelong process as in relationship with God. By believing His love though, you're now adopted as the sinless children of God. That's the beginning with a firm assurance of salvation.
edit: some typo. maybe more coming...