Irvinecommuter
New member
Mety said:
Yes...clearly my fault that I took it the wrong way.
God?
- Thread starter irvinehomeowner
- Start date
NEW -> Contingent Buyer Assistance Program
Yes...clearly my fault that I took it the wrong way.
Believe the Bible as the "inerrant" word of God? No mistake, no wrong, not confusing, every single letter is the perfect word of God?
That's my question. If you believe so, then praise God. If not sure, then let's pray about it.
See? I never said I don't like certain practices. I only addressed the original context of worship from the scripture per IHO's questions (DID NOT say music should be banned), and I also said we should learn and study the word of God more if not set it as priority. Like you said, I think any elements/styles could be in the Lord's day gathering. I just have the priority. If a church has 30min concert, 40min positive message, then 20min praying that's fine as long as the message has teaching Christ. BUT if it's only to please people without any message of Christ, that's not church in my opinion. I'm not talking about using the name Jesus more and more. The context should be preaching the gospel like you said, which really is teaching Christ.
Still unclear?
Absolutely...except Jewish and Christian scholars have greatly differed on the interpretation of those words/text. You apparently take a literal reading of Genesis while I do not. I would never proclaim to state that I have a more "accurate" reading of the Bible than you but you do not seem to share in that opinion.
Yes because even with something like the Prosperity Gospel...they still teach and sing about God and Jesus. The issues it that they overly focus on one aspect of God/Jesus...which is the happiness/joy portions. That does not make their teachings "wrong"...just incomplete. There is nothing stopping a person in that church to read the Bible and learn about the other parts of being a Christian. I mean people who are/were in Joel Osteen's church are not any less saved than me or any other Christians who were saved.
The church is not just one locale or one building...if you go into a church because the initial message appeal to you...you may go to another a few years later because you do not feel that the messages are substantive enough for you. Great...it means that you have grown and mature as a Christian. It doesn't mean that the first church was "wrong" or "misleading" followers.
People switch churches all the time both for style and substance...it's not that different than someone who goes from kindergarten to elementary school to junior high etc. You should not expect a preschooler to understand or stay interested in a college level course, just like you would not expect a college student to go and learn at a preschool.
Now...if the school is teaching nonsense and falsehoods then absolutely...it's a problem but to say I don't think that it is correct to say that a church is "bad" because it focus on biblical based message that make its members feel happy or joyful.
Personally...there are times when I just feel like listening to and signing Christian worship song...while other times I listens to Cavalry Chapel sermons in which they break down verses one word at a time. My time singing songs is not "better" or "worse" than when I listen to a bible study.
You seem to keep adding caveats. When it comes to believing God's words, the scholars' and others' interpretations don't really matter. It is what YOU believe and you did make it clear you don't think God created the earth in literal 6 days. I'm not arguing numerology as you've accused before. Genesis is the first book of The Bible and if you don't really take His words in literal interpretation there, then where do you draw the line what to take literal or not? I don't think it's fair to take something literal and some other things symbolic. That view is actually pretty popular today because it nicely blends the modern science into their Christian belief. But I see that as a cop out, playing safe, and if further don't really have faith in God. Those are the ones who turn Jesus being born from a virgin as symbolic and not literal. And all this really comes down into this: To gain people's approval more than God's. This is what I keep repeating over and over for the last two days here as the main problem of Christianity today though it's nothing new because as I've said before this kind of fake faith has been around since the Old Testament times. Money is a part of it, taking only music as worship is a part of it, not focusing on studying the word of God is a part of it.
You keep saying I'm acting like I'm more holy or mature than you or baby Christians, but isn't that what you are assuming? Seems like you are the one taking a view of studying the word of God as more mature act. Switching/hoping around churches is not actually that great. If you are mature then you should serve people in your church, not look for somewhere "more mature." (The word more mature doesn't make sense, but I'm using it to bring the point.)
I apologize agin to any non-believers or even to you if any of my words hurt your feelings. But I still haven't changed my views on this matter of belief of Christianity. It must have been either my poor writing skills or your own interpretation of my words if you still think I kept changing my mind (which you accused me of), but what I'm saying is still the same. To bring my belief even further, I believe in science for many things, but I don't believe in the science that goes against The Bible at all. I take God's words over science. Period.
What?!? You think I'm sexy remember? Also... we both think Delano is overpriced.
I have added no caveats. You understanding that the paragraph you just typed is your interpretation of the Biblical text that is not shared by many Biblical scholars. I mean Catholic church did not even believe in the common person interpreting Biblical text...which led to the Protestant Reformation. I am not even arguing whether you are right or wrong but rather your confusion with objective fact with your subjective opinion.
You can keep repeating this quote "To gain people's approval more than God's" but you cite no specific examples. You seem to present a stance that you have a firm grasp of what it means to gain God's approval and deviate from that understanding constitutes trying to "gain people's approval".
No...I am literally taking the opposite view. I am saying that studying the Word of God is an important part with being a Christian but so is service or worship (singing), or fellowship. They are all equally important. If you just study of the Word of God like a Benedictine Monk...you will have all the Biblical knowledge but none of the practical applications. Different people have different ways of learning and applying knowledge...to put an emphasis on any one way misses the point complete MO.
Spiritual maturity is a main theme in the New Testament...for example Hebrews 5. Yes one is supposed to mature and grow as a Christian.
Changing churches is not wrong or right to me...it's you trying to find a style and a fit. Sometime the change is voluntary...sometime it's not. Sometimes you grow beyond a church and sometimes the church changes directions. The church stated in the Bible is not a singular building or location (otherwise, we would all need to go to Jerusalem) and the disciples and other early Christians (including Paul) moved around churches all the time to help them grew.
I am not trying to convince you of anything. It's not my job to. I can only tell you what I believe and we leave it at that. I don't play a pastor on TV or in real-life and I never went to seminary. Your view that somehow God is incompatible with science is illogical and nonsensical to me because God created this world, the physical and natural laws of it, and for people to be able to reach an understanding of those laws through science and logic. In my view, they don't conflict at all unless you are looking to hold on to some hyper technical reading of the words in the Bible. But again..that's my view, you don't have to agree. I just don't care that you think that I should have to repent because I disagree.
I can give specific examples, but don't want to here since it might do more damaging to non-believers. I will write on if you insist, but let's not for now.
A better way would be if you pray about it, He will somehow open your eyes to those issues. I'm not saying He will show you visions or anything like that, but how it will be is really up to God. If you don't think there is any issue at all to begin with, then that's your choice not to care about.
Yes, I'm taking the un-popular view of interpreting the scripture which goes against many scholars. Trust me, it is much more simple and easier that way.
Spiritual growth is something I wasn't really focusing on but I do agree there has to be maturity. And like you and IHO mentioned about loving others, I think then we can really love and serve people more with that maturity in the same community/church. Going some other church that seems more feeding to me is sort of selfish in my opinion, but God could lead someone to move churches so I'm not against it. It's just not so great IMHO.
As for Benedictine Monk, I'm not too familiar with that so I won't make arguments. Although I think if one really really seeks God and does so by reading and studying The Bible, he/she will end up loving others also as a result. Someone who ends up with studying the word of God only and not loving others might not really have been someone eagerly seeking God after all. But only God knows the true intention of our hearts. I think at least if we are 100% honest with God, that would be a great start.
**Added: God created everything including what we call it as science. It can be used great to discover what God has created for us, but sometimes it is used to go against God, challenging how the Scripture's words are wrong and old thus subtly influencing people to believe them which results to completely manipulates and destroys His words (or at least they're trying to though they can't). And when that takes place, I must choose God's words rather than what people know as scientific theories and proofs (which are proven in total different results again and again). This is one of the ways of what it means to have God's approval rather than people's if you want to ask me. I'm not against science. I did not say that. Please read again and stop assuming beyond what I have written in every post.
I am just going to respond with the fact that there is significant Christian literature disclaiming the literal interpretation of Genesis and the whole young earth theory.
I do not need to bend my Bible reading to logical absurdity to fit with scientific data...God created science and the Bible...there is not need for conflict. Satan didn't corrupt anything...God made the Earth and fossils...they are compatible logically and scientifically.
"But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong" - 1 Corinthians 1:27
Please choose the word of God over the well known or any literatures in this world especially if you call yourself a Christian and have hunger to know Christ correctly. Brilliant scientists and even so-called Christian authors are living in the lies of Satan trying to corrupt the gospel some even without knowing it themselves when they disclaim the literal interpretation of Genesis. I didn't write any scientific data here to prove the Bible if you haven't read my post. I would encourage you to read when you have time. Satan did corrupt everything God created, but one day He will restore everything and we live to hope to see that day soon.
I really hope and pray you will believe and live by the truth not by things of this world. Only The Holy Spirit can do that so I will keep presenting what's true and will keep praying for you.
Again...you confuse your opinion and interpretations of the Bible with objective facts and then tell others (including me) that we are all wrong and under the spell of Satan. There is literally no discussion or debate that can result from this.
It is fine that it is your interpretation of the Bible but it's pretty pompous IMO for you to proclaim that you have the absolute truth and everyone else is wrong, which is exactly how we got into this discussion in the first place. I have my views on what the Bible means and how it is to be interpreted but I don't get to tell anyone else how is it is to be interpreted. That's way above my (or any human's) pay grade. The irony of the quote that you selected when you are portraying yourself as some sort of Biblical certainty is not lost on me.
It is interesting that you continuous claim not to want to offend non-believer when this is the exact attitude that turns a lot of non-believers off. "DON'T BELIEVE IN SCIENCE...BELIEVE ONLY IN MY INTERPRETATION OF WHAT GOD SAYS!"
I'm not saying I'm the only one who's right. There are more than you think amount of people who genuinely believe in the word of God as is. Not the majority though, at least what I'm seeing. But then again Jesus also said "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able." We should take this as warning from our Lord, but it sure is out of His love that He warns us.
What is belief? What is faith? It's not believing in something that might not be true or could have many kinds of interpretations. It's believing in something as the absolute truth and it sometimes is offensive. Like I've mentioned, when we point out someone's sin, most will react with "Who are you to trying to judge me?" It hurts, but needed when we present the gospel. Most if not all prophets were killed because of they spoke God's warnings. They finally killed Jesus too. What was Jesus' first message when he started ministry? ?Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.?
Irvinecommuter, you might think I'm acting like I'm the only one correct. If no one in TI believes God's word as is, interpreting Genesis literally, then you are right that I'm the only one right. But isn't that your assumption that no one else has the same belief?
If you feel like I'm totally wrong and doing damage to God, then please tell me repent. I'll take that as your act of love of brother in Christ.
No, you are saying that your interpretation and only your interpretation of the Bible is accurate. The fact that other people may agree with you does not make your interpretation any more or less accurate.
You literally and repeatedly have stated that anyone who does not hold the literal 6-day creation interpretation of the Bible as being lead astray by Satan.
Pride is also a sin...the concept that one believes that him/herself is somehow the arbiter of all things Biblical seems pretty prideful to me. Throughout history and even now, there are significant and divergent views of what the Bible means and how it is to be interpreted. Is the Catholic Church right? What about the Council of Nicea? What about Martin Luther? What about Joseph Smith? Who is "right"...who is "wrong"...honestly, only God is the arbiter. Pharisees believe that they were so right that they crucified Jesus for it. Paul believe that he was doing the right thing by persecuting Christian until God told him otherwise. History is filled with examples where people of faith so believe that they are right that they take up arms and force others to take specific and particular belief systems.
One can have core beliefs but to then go out and tell other people, including other Christians, that they are objectively wrong is incredibly and spiritually arrogant. You can have a discussion and debate about who is right or wrong but one should not be not allowed to say that someone else is wrong and Satan has blinded that other person.
Faith and belief are deeply personal things. Your statements continuously ignore the possibility that those who disagree with you also seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit and come to a different conclusion as you. Instead, you come to the conclusion that those who disagree with you are not in line with God and are being mislead by Satan.
No...that is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that your belief is your belief/interpretation. It may be right...it may be wrong but I don't get to tell you that you are wrong...just like you don't get to tell me that I am wrong. I (nor any other human being) do not get to make that call. My journey with God has provided me with experiences and history very different from yours...I do not doubt that you believe that you are walking in line with God...don't doubt that I am as well.
Not to mention the triviality of the whole discussion...During Jesus' day, there were three main sects of Judaism, Pharisee, Sadducees, and Essenes. They all had different interpretations of various aspect of Jewish beliefs and what laws/rules to abide by. Pharisees and Sadducees took turns questioning Jesus about the technicalities of Jewish law and beliefs and Jesus basically told both of them that they are missing the forest through the trees. Focus on the forest...not the trees.
You are right that I literally and repeatedly have stated that anyone who does not hold the literal 6-day creation interpretation of the Bible are being lead astray by Satan. Oh yes, sir, I do stand by that. But I was arguing just with this Genesis issue, wasn't I? There are many other things we can discuss that I can tell you I'm not 100% sure of yet since I'm still studying and learning the word of God myself, which will be a life long process anyways.
This creation message is at the very front of the Bible and if someone tries to manipulate it, then I must stand by my faith even if it means to call someone Satanic. But then by that I wish those someone will eventually return to God. If we are discussing something I'm not sure of, I would be honest and say I don't know this yet, but this is something I'm 100% sure of and it's sickening to see so many people even Christians are discrediting God's words.
Just like I could misunderstand what you are saying, you could as well misunderstand me. You keep telling me I'm prideful and Pharisee-like so I will ask God for forgiveness if this was wrong. Only He knows my intention so I will be honest with God. I will pray. I appreciate that you pointed it out.
I didn't say I didn't want to offend non-believers. In fact, I do want to offend them and sometimes I don't as much as I should. I fail too. BUT I don't want to show them the ugly side of Christian brothers fighting and dropping names of certain pastors and talk trash on them. That is damaging. That actually is rebuked by Paul in his letters. The reason why I want to offend them is, like previously stated, because I want them to deal with their sin and turn to God. Who am I to point out someone's sin? Well, everyone is a sinner if you literally take the Bible and we must bring the importance of sin and repentance as that was what Jesus was doing.
Instead of naming wrong pastors and churches (in my opinion), I will name some pastors I would encourage you to listen to or read books of if your heart desires - Paul Washer, John F. MacArthur, R.C. Sproul (RIP), John Piper, and even Charles Spurgeon.
Most are old or dead, but I couldn't find much younger ones yet. Hopefully there will be more...
So, you are not sure about interpretation of other parts of the Bible but absolutely 100% sure about the interpretation of Genesis. That is bridge that I will never be able to reach...certainly not something as trivial as whether God did or did not actual create the universe in 6 days.
What if I told you that I prayed about this and asked the Holy Spirit about it and I am absolutely 100% sure that one should not take a literal reading of the 6-day narrative regarding creation in Genesis?
Again, it matters not to me whether you are or are not prideful. I don't get to tell you if you are or are not sinning. I can tell your what I observe and see but I don't get to make that call re sin. That's something that God gets to do. I don't have the spiritual authority to do that.
And yet you felt it proper and necessary to rebuke those who do not take a literal interpretation of the 6-day creation.
Jesus came in love..not in condemnation. He came to show believes and non-believers that God is Love and Forgiveness. This shock therapy concept of spreading God's word is contrary to everything that I read Jesus and the Gospel to stand for. If everyone is a sinner, why not just accept them as they are...introduce them to Jesus and let Jesus/God do the work? How many people do you think gets saved because they have an Encounter on the road to Damascus? Even in the gospel, Jesus told stories and parable and took time to heal and talk to people. That's what lead people to him, not him screaming at people that they are sinful.
Irvinecommuter,
Since now you finally said you are not sure about this 6-day creation, let's just move on for now. Again I hope you will believe one day. Thanks for being honest finally. But like you said, if you really really sincerely prayed if you should take 6-day concept literally, God will answer you. Let's discuss again about this then.
You absolutely have the authority to call me prideful anytime any day. Well, you already have done so many times. Haha. But you can do that because brothers in Christ must do so. That way we can stay awake. We shouldn't to non-believers at first though. They first need to hear the gospel.
And gospel deals with sin and repentance. I didn't even know if that was called shock therapy concept. I don't agree that is a shock therapy. Although Jesus shocked many if not all of the people He met by first His authoritative speech, and more than the first, His message. You said, introduce them to Jesus? Well how do we introduce? Do we just say, "Hey, there is this Jesus I believe, you should check Him out. Follow instagram." Is this the proper way? Ok, I was being a little sarcastic with this example, but seriously, what context would there have to be to introduce Jesus? It's that He died for us because of OUR SIN and more importantly He ROSE AGIAN from the dead concurring the curse everyone can't escape from. You said Jesus came in love and rightly so He did. And what better way to display that but dying on the cross for you?
Jesus started speaking in parables from a certain point when Pharisees kept displaying un-willingness to repent. And those parables were "condemnation" to them believe or not. Those were not nice stories to attract people with soft voice.
"This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." Matthew 13:13
Jesus is quoting OT which is being fulfilled that those hard hearted Jews will NOT be saved until they repent.
But you're right. He did love His disciples though they still were not fully loving Him back for He said couple verse later,
"But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear." Matthew 13:16
Yeah, maybe He wasn't screaming and yelling at them. But why do you think I am? I might be talking in a total chill mood.
How do we introduce Jesus? We need to tell them about sin, but also how He loved us and died for us. And that's not the end. He rose again from the dead, living forever as our mediator that some day we will be like Him.
And what if I said that I have and I am firm in the belief that Genesis is not to be read literally?
Here is a good way to do it...get to know the person. Get to know what that person is about...have a relationship with him or her. Talk about your own journey and how Jesus has helped you. Ask him or her about any concerns or issues he or she says. Invite them to Church consistently and without preconceptions or instructions. Let God/Jesus do the work.
He spoke in parables because that's how things were taught and passed on in those days. Most of the masses were not educated and learned through parables relating to their daily lives. The parables were not for the pharisees or even the disciples...they were for the masses and the unbelievers. Jesus took the time and effort to get to know individuals and their pain and spoke to them in their language. He hung out with them without condition, he healed them without making them jump through hoops or pay money.
God is Love...not condemnation. He wants a relationship with all of his children...a deep and personal relationship. That does not start with chastisement or rejection of those that he loves.
Yes...clearly my fault that I took it the wrong way.
Irvinecommuter said:
Believe the Bible as the "inerrant" word of God? No mistake, no wrong, not confusing, every single letter is the perfect word of God?
That's my question. If you believe so, then praise God. If not sure, then let's pray about it.
See? I never said I don't like certain practices. I only addressed the original context of worship from the scripture per IHO's questions (DID NOT say music should be banned), and I also said we should learn and study the word of God more if not set it as priority. Like you said, I think any elements/styles could be in the Lord's day gathering. I just have the priority. If a church has 30min concert, 40min positive message, then 20min praying that's fine as long as the message has teaching Christ. BUT if it's only to please people without any message of Christ, that's not church in my opinion. I'm not talking about using the name Jesus more and more. The context should be preaching the gospel like you said, which really is teaching Christ.
Still unclear?
Irvinecommuter
New member
Mety said:
Absolutely...except Jewish and Christian scholars have greatly differed on the interpretation of those words/text. You apparently take a literal reading of Genesis while I do not. I would never proclaim to state that I have a more "accurate" reading of the Bible than you but you do not seem to share in that opinion.
Yes because even with something like the Prosperity Gospel...they still teach and sing about God and Jesus. The issues it that they overly focus on one aspect of God/Jesus...which is the happiness/joy portions. That does not make their teachings "wrong"...just incomplete. There is nothing stopping a person in that church to read the Bible and learn about the other parts of being a Christian. I mean people who are/were in Joel Osteen's church are not any less saved than me or any other Christians who were saved.
The church is not just one locale or one building...if you go into a church because the initial message appeal to you...you may go to another a few years later because you do not feel that the messages are substantive enough for you. Great...it means that you have grown and mature as a Christian. It doesn't mean that the first church was "wrong" or "misleading" followers.
People switch churches all the time both for style and substance...it's not that different than someone who goes from kindergarten to elementary school to junior high etc. You should not expect a preschooler to understand or stay interested in a college level course, just like you would not expect a college student to go and learn at a preschool.
Now...if the school is teaching nonsense and falsehoods then absolutely...it's a problem but to say I don't think that it is correct to say that a church is "bad" because it focus on biblical based message that make its members feel happy or joyful.
Personally...there are times when I just feel like listening to and signing Christian worship song...while other times I listens to Cavalry Chapel sermons in which they break down verses one word at a time. My time singing songs is not "better" or "worse" than when I listen to a bible study.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
Funny how I agree with IC on many things but we don't agree on lot size.
Irvinecommuter said:
You seem to keep adding caveats. When it comes to believing God's words, the scholars' and others' interpretations don't really matter. It is what YOU believe and you did make it clear you don't think God created the earth in literal 6 days. I'm not arguing numerology as you've accused before. Genesis is the first book of The Bible and if you don't really take His words in literal interpretation there, then where do you draw the line what to take literal or not? I don't think it's fair to take something literal and some other things symbolic. That view is actually pretty popular today because it nicely blends the modern science into their Christian belief. But I see that as a cop out, playing safe, and if further don't really have faith in God. Those are the ones who turn Jesus being born from a virgin as symbolic and not literal. And all this really comes down into this: To gain people's approval more than God's. This is what I keep repeating over and over for the last two days here as the main problem of Christianity today though it's nothing new because as I've said before this kind of fake faith has been around since the Old Testament times. Money is a part of it, taking only music as worship is a part of it, not focusing on studying the word of God is a part of it.
You keep saying I'm acting like I'm more holy or mature than you or baby Christians, but isn't that what you are assuming? Seems like you are the one taking a view of studying the word of God as more mature act. Switching/hoping around churches is not actually that great. If you are mature then you should serve people in your church, not look for somewhere "more mature." (The word more mature doesn't make sense, but I'm using it to bring the point.)
I apologize agin to any non-believers or even to you if any of my words hurt your feelings. But I still haven't changed my views on this matter of belief of Christianity. It must have been either my poor writing skills or your own interpretation of my words if you still think I kept changing my mind (which you accused me of), but what I'm saying is still the same. To bring my belief even further, I believe in science for many things, but I don't believe in the science that goes against The Bible at all. I take God's words over science. Period.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
Mety said:irvinehomeowner said:Funny how I agree with IC on many things but we don't agree on lot size.
Funny how you and I almost never agree on anything. lol
What?!? You think I'm sexy remember? Also... we both think Delano is overpriced.
If God is the only thing we agree on, that is more than enough.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
BTW:
I don't think any of us are trying to change the other's mind, we are just trying to understand what the other is thinking and why.
Just like there are different churches for different people, there are different ways people walk with God. While you may think yours is the only correct way as stated in the Bible, others may see either the Bible saying something similar but not exactly the same.
I still believe that one of the best ways to show how much you love God is to love people.
1 John 4:7-8
(and yes, despite my disagreements with eyephone I do have love for him and don't want him to leave TI like he thinks I do, I just want him to stop hating on other members
)
I don't think any of us are trying to change the other's mind, we are just trying to understand what the other is thinking and why.
Just like there are different churches for different people, there are different ways people walk with God. While you may think yours is the only correct way as stated in the Bible, others may see either the Bible saying something similar but not exactly the same.
I still believe that one of the best ways to show how much you love God is to love people.
1 John 4:7-8
(and yes, despite my disagreements with eyephone I do have love for him and don't want him to leave TI like he thinks I do, I just want him to stop hating on other members
)Irvinecommuter
New member
Mety said:
I have added no caveats. You understanding that the paragraph you just typed is your interpretation of the Biblical text that is not shared by many Biblical scholars. I mean Catholic church did not even believe in the common person interpreting Biblical text...which led to the Protestant Reformation. I am not even arguing whether you are right or wrong but rather your confusion with objective fact with your subjective opinion.
You can keep repeating this quote "To gain people's approval more than God's" but you cite no specific examples. You seem to present a stance that you have a firm grasp of what it means to gain God's approval and deviate from that understanding constitutes trying to "gain people's approval".
No...I am literally taking the opposite view. I am saying that studying the Word of God is an important part with being a Christian but so is service or worship (singing), or fellowship. They are all equally important. If you just study of the Word of God like a Benedictine Monk...you will have all the Biblical knowledge but none of the practical applications. Different people have different ways of learning and applying knowledge...to put an emphasis on any one way misses the point complete MO.
Spiritual maturity is a main theme in the New Testament...for example Hebrews 5. Yes one is supposed to mature and grow as a Christian.
Changing churches is not wrong or right to me...it's you trying to find a style and a fit. Sometime the change is voluntary...sometime it's not. Sometimes you grow beyond a church and sometimes the church changes directions. The church stated in the Bible is not a singular building or location (otherwise, we would all need to go to Jerusalem) and the disciples and other early Christians (including Paul) moved around churches all the time to help them grew.
I am not trying to convince you of anything. It's not my job to. I can only tell you what I believe and we leave it at that. I don't play a pastor on TV or in real-life and I never went to seminary. Your view that somehow God is incompatible with science is illogical and nonsensical to me because God created this world, the physical and natural laws of it, and for people to be able to reach an understanding of those laws through science and logic. In my view, they don't conflict at all unless you are looking to hold on to some hyper technical reading of the words in the Bible. But again..that's my view, you don't have to agree. I just don't care that you think that I should have to repent because I disagree.
Irvinecommuter said:
I can give specific examples, but don't want to here since it might do more damaging to non-believers. I will write on if you insist, but let's not for now.
A better way would be if you pray about it, He will somehow open your eyes to those issues. I'm not saying He will show you visions or anything like that, but how it will be is really up to God. If you don't think there is any issue at all to begin with, then that's your choice not to care about.
Yes, I'm taking the un-popular view of interpreting the scripture which goes against many scholars. Trust me, it is much more simple and easier that way.
Spiritual growth is something I wasn't really focusing on but I do agree there has to be maturity. And like you and IHO mentioned about loving others, I think then we can really love and serve people more with that maturity in the same community/church. Going some other church that seems more feeding to me is sort of selfish in my opinion, but God could lead someone to move churches so I'm not against it. It's just not so great IMHO.
As for Benedictine Monk, I'm not too familiar with that so I won't make arguments. Although I think if one really really seeks God and does so by reading and studying The Bible, he/she will end up loving others also as a result. Someone who ends up with studying the word of God only and not loving others might not really have been someone eagerly seeking God after all. But only God knows the true intention of our hearts. I think at least if we are 100% honest with God, that would be a great start.
**Added: God created everything including what we call it as science. It can be used great to discover what God has created for us, but sometimes it is used to go against God, challenging how the Scripture's words are wrong and old thus subtly influencing people to believe them which results to completely manipulates and destroys His words (or at least they're trying to though they can't). And when that takes place, I must choose God's words rather than what people know as scientific theories and proofs (which are proven in total different results again and again). This is one of the ways of what it means to have God's approval rather than people's if you want to ask me. I'm not against science. I did not say that. Please read again and stop assuming beyond what I have written in every post.
I feel I must address this issue of if God really created the earth in 6 days especially to those call themselves Christians who don't literally take the word of God as is.
Did it really take only 6 days while the science says within 10-20 millions years? Two views are very different that one must be a false statement. Not only how long it took align within these arguments but also the age of the earth is stated quite differently between The Bible and the Science.
This is what Wikipedia says when you google how long did it take for earth to form? ,
"In a process known as runaway accretion, successively larger fragments of dust and debris clumped together to form planets. Earth formed in this manner about 4.54 billion years ago (with an uncertainty of 1%) and was largely completed within 10?20 million years." However, The Bible says the creation must have taken place no earlier than only about 10,000 years ago. The gap between two are pretty huge, but we can't ignore the fact the scientists keep adding the caveat of "with an uncertainty of 1%" when it comes to present their results. What it seems to be saying to me is that they are not absolutely 100% sure. Theses are smart scientists full of knowledge with many degrees and they sure know how to play the game when it comes to legal issues. The statement, "with an uncertainty of 1%" will let them off the hook in case the results come out differently in another decade or so.
The Bible, however, says pretty clear without any caveats,
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And God said, ?Let there be light,? and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. - Genesis 1:1-5
These are the very first words of God written in the book of what we know as The Holy Bible. It keeps on going and explains how God created the earth in 6 days with much details. The interesting note is that after the creation of each day, it says, "And there was evening and there was morning," then there it says the second day, the third day and on and on. In the six consecutive 24-hour periods of days are clearly presented here and the very things we call as Day and Night are named and created by God Himself.
To me as a believer, I take the view of the earth was created in 6 days by the word of God rather than something that has uncertainty even if that uncertainty is only 1%. There is also another view, mixing these two theories together and saying a Day in the beginning of the creation was not a literal day as we know today. But then did God make mistakes by calling the light Day and the darkness Night and saying the evening and the morning calling it one day? What other than light and darkness should we expect about? What other day and night system are we talking about? I don't think two arguments can be blended at all and it's either one is right and the other is wrong. This is belief. This is faith. As continually encouraged to abide in His word by Apostles, we must not accept the different gospel, which is fake gospel even if it is the most popular view.
This 6-day creation is only one example of many that how Satan subtly tries to attack the Christians and church with so-called science, the scholars and even the Bible teachers. They can't destroy the word of God as it's written in the scripture so they are influencing societies, cultures, people and then churches that end up teaching God's creation "days" are not literal "days" we know today. Such teachers will meet the greater condemnation as Jesus warned the spiritual leaders leading flocks astray will face the greater condemnation unless they repent and turn to God.
For those who just became a Christian or someone who's interested in Christianity or someone who believed in that popular view of blending two theories together, I would encourage you to learn the word of God and stay true in your faith. Always ask help from The Holy Spirit to guide you to understand His words correctly for that is the main purpose of The Holy Spirit Jesus gave you. Don't get hindered by someone teaching other than what's written in The Bible and interpreting in popular views because that's not really a Christian message but just a motivational speaking which could be done in places other than church.
Did it really take only 6 days while the science says within 10-20 millions years? Two views are very different that one must be a false statement. Not only how long it took align within these arguments but also the age of the earth is stated quite differently between The Bible and the Science.
This is what Wikipedia says when you google how long did it take for earth to form? ,
"In a process known as runaway accretion, successively larger fragments of dust and debris clumped together to form planets. Earth formed in this manner about 4.54 billion years ago (with an uncertainty of 1%) and was largely completed within 10?20 million years." However, The Bible says the creation must have taken place no earlier than only about 10,000 years ago. The gap between two are pretty huge, but we can't ignore the fact the scientists keep adding the caveat of "with an uncertainty of 1%" when it comes to present their results. What it seems to be saying to me is that they are not absolutely 100% sure. Theses are smart scientists full of knowledge with many degrees and they sure know how to play the game when it comes to legal issues. The statement, "with an uncertainty of 1%" will let them off the hook in case the results come out differently in another decade or so.
The Bible, however, says pretty clear without any caveats,
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And God said, ?Let there be light,? and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. - Genesis 1:1-5
These are the very first words of God written in the book of what we know as The Holy Bible. It keeps on going and explains how God created the earth in 6 days with much details. The interesting note is that after the creation of each day, it says, "And there was evening and there was morning," then there it says the second day, the third day and on and on. In the six consecutive 24-hour periods of days are clearly presented here and the very things we call as Day and Night are named and created by God Himself.
To me as a believer, I take the view of the earth was created in 6 days by the word of God rather than something that has uncertainty even if that uncertainty is only 1%. There is also another view, mixing these two theories together and saying a Day in the beginning of the creation was not a literal day as we know today. But then did God make mistakes by calling the light Day and the darkness Night and saying the evening and the morning calling it one day? What other than light and darkness should we expect about? What other day and night system are we talking about? I don't think two arguments can be blended at all and it's either one is right and the other is wrong. This is belief. This is faith. As continually encouraged to abide in His word by Apostles, we must not accept the different gospel, which is fake gospel even if it is the most popular view.
This 6-day creation is only one example of many that how Satan subtly tries to attack the Christians and church with so-called science, the scholars and even the Bible teachers. They can't destroy the word of God as it's written in the scripture so they are influencing societies, cultures, people and then churches that end up teaching God's creation "days" are not literal "days" we know today. Such teachers will meet the greater condemnation as Jesus warned the spiritual leaders leading flocks astray will face the greater condemnation unless they repent and turn to God.
For those who just became a Christian or someone who's interested in Christianity or someone who believed in that popular view of blending two theories together, I would encourage you to learn the word of God and stay true in your faith. Always ask help from The Holy Spirit to guide you to understand His words correctly for that is the main purpose of The Holy Spirit Jesus gave you. Don't get hindered by someone teaching other than what's written in The Bible and interpreting in popular views because that's not really a Christian message but just a motivational speaking which could be done in places other than church.
Irvinecommuter
New member
Mety said:
I am just going to respond with the fact that there is significant Christian literature disclaiming the literal interpretation of Genesis and the whole young earth theory.
I do not need to bend my Bible reading to logical absurdity to fit with scientific data...God created science and the Bible...there is not need for conflict. Satan didn't corrupt anything...God made the Earth and fossils...they are compatible logically and scientifically.
Irvinecommuter said:
"But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong" - 1 Corinthians 1:27
Please choose the word of God over the well known or any literatures in this world especially if you call yourself a Christian and have hunger to know Christ correctly. Brilliant scientists and even so-called Christian authors are living in the lies of Satan trying to corrupt the gospel some even without knowing it themselves when they disclaim the literal interpretation of Genesis. I didn't write any scientific data here to prove the Bible if you haven't read my post. I would encourage you to read when you have time. Satan did corrupt everything God created, but one day He will restore everything and we live to hope to see that day soon.
I really hope and pray you will believe and live by the truth not by things of this world. Only The Holy Spirit can do that so I will keep presenting what's true and will keep praying for you.
Irvinecommuter
New member
Mety said:
Again...you confuse your opinion and interpretations of the Bible with objective facts and then tell others (including me) that we are all wrong and under the spell of Satan. There is literally no discussion or debate that can result from this.
It is fine that it is your interpretation of the Bible but it's pretty pompous IMO for you to proclaim that you have the absolute truth and everyone else is wrong, which is exactly how we got into this discussion in the first place. I have my views on what the Bible means and how it is to be interpreted but I don't get to tell anyone else how is it is to be interpreted. That's way above my (or any human's) pay grade. The irony of the quote that you selected when you are portraying yourself as some sort of Biblical certainty is not lost on me.
It is interesting that you continuous claim not to want to offend non-believer when this is the exact attitude that turns a lot of non-believers off. "DON'T BELIEVE IN SCIENCE...BELIEVE ONLY IN MY INTERPRETATION OF WHAT GOD SAYS!"
Irvinecommuter said:
I'm not saying I'm the only one who's right. There are more than you think amount of people who genuinely believe in the word of God as is. Not the majority though, at least what I'm seeing. But then again Jesus also said "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able." We should take this as warning from our Lord, but it sure is out of His love that He warns us.
What is belief? What is faith? It's not believing in something that might not be true or could have many kinds of interpretations. It's believing in something as the absolute truth and it sometimes is offensive. Like I've mentioned, when we point out someone's sin, most will react with "Who are you to trying to judge me?" It hurts, but needed when we present the gospel. Most if not all prophets were killed because of they spoke God's warnings. They finally killed Jesus too. What was Jesus' first message when he started ministry? ?Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.?
Irvinecommuter, you might think I'm acting like I'm the only one correct. If no one in TI believes God's word as is, interpreting Genesis literally, then you are right that I'm the only one right. But isn't that your assumption that no one else has the same belief?
If you feel like I'm totally wrong and doing damage to God, then please tell me repent. I'll take that as your act of love of brother in Christ.
Irvinecommuter
New member
Mety said:
No, you are saying that your interpretation and only your interpretation of the Bible is accurate. The fact that other people may agree with you does not make your interpretation any more or less accurate.
You literally and repeatedly have stated that anyone who does not hold the literal 6-day creation interpretation of the Bible as being lead astray by Satan.
Pride is also a sin...the concept that one believes that him/herself is somehow the arbiter of all things Biblical seems pretty prideful to me. Throughout history and even now, there are significant and divergent views of what the Bible means and how it is to be interpreted. Is the Catholic Church right? What about the Council of Nicea? What about Martin Luther? What about Joseph Smith? Who is "right"...who is "wrong"...honestly, only God is the arbiter. Pharisees believe that they were so right that they crucified Jesus for it. Paul believe that he was doing the right thing by persecuting Christian until God told him otherwise. History is filled with examples where people of faith so believe that they are right that they take up arms and force others to take specific and particular belief systems.
One can have core beliefs but to then go out and tell other people, including other Christians, that they are objectively wrong is incredibly and spiritually arrogant. You can have a discussion and debate about who is right or wrong but one should not be not allowed to say that someone else is wrong and Satan has blinded that other person.
Faith and belief are deeply personal things. Your statements continuously ignore the possibility that those who disagree with you also seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit and come to a different conclusion as you. Instead, you come to the conclusion that those who disagree with you are not in line with God and are being mislead by Satan.
No...that is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that your belief is your belief/interpretation. It may be right...it may be wrong but I don't get to tell you that you are wrong...just like you don't get to tell me that I am wrong. I (nor any other human being) do not get to make that call. My journey with God has provided me with experiences and history very different from yours...I do not doubt that you believe that you are walking in line with God...don't doubt that I am as well.
Not to mention the triviality of the whole discussion...During Jesus' day, there were three main sects of Judaism, Pharisee, Sadducees, and Essenes. They all had different interpretations of various aspect of Jewish beliefs and what laws/rules to abide by. Pharisees and Sadducees took turns questioning Jesus about the technicalities of Jewish law and beliefs and Jesus basically told both of them that they are missing the forest through the trees. Focus on the forest...not the trees.
Irvinecommuter said:
You are right that I literally and repeatedly have stated that anyone who does not hold the literal 6-day creation interpretation of the Bible are being lead astray by Satan. Oh yes, sir, I do stand by that. But I was arguing just with this Genesis issue, wasn't I? There are many other things we can discuss that I can tell you I'm not 100% sure of yet since I'm still studying and learning the word of God myself, which will be a life long process anyways.
This creation message is at the very front of the Bible and if someone tries to manipulate it, then I must stand by my faith even if it means to call someone Satanic. But then by that I wish those someone will eventually return to God. If we are discussing something I'm not sure of, I would be honest and say I don't know this yet, but this is something I'm 100% sure of and it's sickening to see so many people even Christians are discrediting God's words.
Just like I could misunderstand what you are saying, you could as well misunderstand me. You keep telling me I'm prideful and Pharisee-like so I will ask God for forgiveness if this was wrong. Only He knows my intention so I will be honest with God. I will pray. I appreciate that you pointed it out.
I didn't say I didn't want to offend non-believers. In fact, I do want to offend them and sometimes I don't as much as I should. I fail too. BUT I don't want to show them the ugly side of Christian brothers fighting and dropping names of certain pastors and talk trash on them. That is damaging. That actually is rebuked by Paul in his letters. The reason why I want to offend them is, like previously stated, because I want them to deal with their sin and turn to God. Who am I to point out someone's sin? Well, everyone is a sinner if you literally take the Bible and we must bring the importance of sin and repentance as that was what Jesus was doing.
Instead of naming wrong pastors and churches (in my opinion), I will name some pastors I would encourage you to listen to or read books of if your heart desires - Paul Washer, John F. MacArthur, R.C. Sproul (RIP), John Piper, and even Charles Spurgeon.
Most are old or dead, but I couldn't find much younger ones yet. Hopefully there will be more...
Irvinecommuter
New member
Mety said:
So, you are not sure about interpretation of other parts of the Bible but absolutely 100% sure about the interpretation of Genesis. That is bridge that I will never be able to reach...certainly not something as trivial as whether God did or did not actual create the universe in 6 days.
What if I told you that I prayed about this and asked the Holy Spirit about it and I am absolutely 100% sure that one should not take a literal reading of the 6-day narrative regarding creation in Genesis?
Again, it matters not to me whether you are or are not prideful. I don't get to tell you if you are or are not sinning. I can tell your what I observe and see but I don't get to make that call re sin. That's something that God gets to do. I don't have the spiritual authority to do that.
And yet you felt it proper and necessary to rebuke those who do not take a literal interpretation of the 6-day creation.
Jesus came in love..not in condemnation. He came to show believes and non-believers that God is Love and Forgiveness. This shock therapy concept of spreading God's word is contrary to everything that I read Jesus and the Gospel to stand for. If everyone is a sinner, why not just accept them as they are...introduce them to Jesus and let Jesus/God do the work? How many people do you think gets saved because they have an Encounter on the road to Damascus? Even in the gospel, Jesus told stories and parable and took time to heal and talk to people. That's what lead people to him, not him screaming at people that they are sinful.
Irvinecommuter said:
Irvinecommuter,
Since now you finally said you are not sure about this 6-day creation, let's just move on for now. Again I hope you will believe one day. Thanks for being honest finally. But like you said, if you really really sincerely prayed if you should take 6-day concept literally, God will answer you. Let's discuss again about this then.
You absolutely have the authority to call me prideful anytime any day. Well, you already have done so many times. Haha. But you can do that because brothers in Christ must do so. That way we can stay awake. We shouldn't to non-believers at first though. They first need to hear the gospel.
And gospel deals with sin and repentance. I didn't even know if that was called shock therapy concept. I don't agree that is a shock therapy. Although Jesus shocked many if not all of the people He met by first His authoritative speech, and more than the first, His message. You said, introduce them to Jesus? Well how do we introduce? Do we just say, "Hey, there is this Jesus I believe, you should check Him out. Follow instagram." Is this the proper way? Ok, I was being a little sarcastic with this example, but seriously, what context would there have to be to introduce Jesus? It's that He died for us because of OUR SIN and more importantly He ROSE AGIAN from the dead concurring the curse everyone can't escape from. You said Jesus came in love and rightly so He did. And what better way to display that but dying on the cross for you?
Jesus started speaking in parables from a certain point when Pharisees kept displaying un-willingness to repent. And those parables were "condemnation" to them believe or not. Those were not nice stories to attract people with soft voice.
"This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." Matthew 13:13
Jesus is quoting OT which is being fulfilled that those hard hearted Jews will NOT be saved until they repent.
But you're right. He did love His disciples though they still were not fully loving Him back for He said couple verse later,
"But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear." Matthew 13:16
Yeah, maybe He wasn't screaming and yelling at them. But why do you think I am? I might be talking in a total chill mood.
How do we introduce Jesus? We need to tell them about sin, but also how He loved us and died for us. And that's not the end. He rose again from the dead, living forever as our mediator that some day we will be like Him.
Irvinecommuter
New member
Mety said:
And what if I said that I have and I am firm in the belief that Genesis is not to be read literally?
Here is a good way to do it...get to know the person. Get to know what that person is about...have a relationship with him or her. Talk about your own journey and how Jesus has helped you. Ask him or her about any concerns or issues he or she says. Invite them to Church consistently and without preconceptions or instructions. Let God/Jesus do the work.
Jesus started speaking in parables from a certain point when Pharisees kept displaying un-willingness to repent. And those parables were "condemnation" to them believe or not. Those were not nice stories to attract people with soft voice.
"This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." Matthew 13:13
Jesus is quoting OT which is being fulfilled that those hard hearted Jews will NOT be saved until they repent.
But you're right. He did love His disciples though they still were not fully loving Him back for He said couple verse later,
"But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear." Matthew 13:16
Yeah, maybe He wasn't screaming and yelling at them. But why do you think I am? I might be talking in a total chill mood.
He spoke in parables because that's how things were taught and passed on in those days. Most of the masses were not educated and learned through parables relating to their daily lives. The parables were not for the pharisees or even the disciples...they were for the masses and the unbelievers. Jesus took the time and effort to get to know individuals and their pain and spoke to them in their language. He hung out with them without condition, he healed them without making them jump through hoops or pay money.
God is Love...not condemnation. He wants a relationship with all of his children...a deep and personal relationship. That does not start with chastisement or rejection of those that he loves.