God?

[irvinehomeowner]

Seems like GH and IC are on opposite sides.

GH feels that what happens will happen between God and that person, to be determined at that time.

But IC is following the Christian rule where as you have to believe in Jesus as your savior.

I ask the question not because I am trying to determine my path, I know where I stand and I have no illusions as to where I will end up, I just wonder about others.

@IC (and maybe SGIP):

So Rabbis who don't believe in Jesus as the son of God will not end up being saved?
The followers of Islam will not live eternal life with God?
Buddhists will forever be separated from God?

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Seems like GH and IC are on opposite sides.

GH feels that what happens will happen between God and that person, to be determined at that time.

But IC is following the Christian rule where as you have to believe in Jesus as your savior.

I ask the question not because I am trying to determine my path, I know where I stand and I have no illusions as to where I will end up, I just wonder about others.

@IC (and maybe SGIP):

So Rabbis who don't believe in Jesus as the son of God will not end up being saved?
The followers of Islam will not live eternal life with God?
Buddhists will forever be separated from God?

No...GH and I agree.  GH is saying that it is up to God to determine who is "believer".  I don't know if GH is a Christian, but if he is...by definition he would agree that the key test is whether a person truly holds Christ as his/her savior.

As to your second question, the answer is yes.  Why does that perplex you (not trying to snarky at all)?

 

[jerometl]

Seems like GH and IC are on opposite sides.

GH feels that what happens will happen between God and that person, to be determined at that time.

But IC is following the Christian rule where as you have to believe in Jesus as your savior.

I ask the question not because I am trying to determine my path, I know where I stand and I have no illusions as to where I will end up, I just wonder about others.

@IC (and maybe SGIP):

So Rabbis who don't believe in Jesus as the son of God will not end up being saved?
The followers of Islam will not live eternal life with God?
Buddhists will forever be separated from God?

No...GH and I agree.  GH is saying that it is up to God to determine who is "believer".  I don't know if GH is a Christian, but if he is...by definition he would agree that the key test is whether a person truly holds Christ as his/her savior.

As to your second question, the answer is yes.  Why does that perplex you (not trying to snarky at all)?

I agree with IC on the key test.  On the other hand, If God decides to save the others that did not meet this key test because He knows his/her true heart and intent or He has other plans for them, what is that to me and who am I to complain ?  God's standard of mercy and justice is way better than human standard.

That's why I wouldn't worry about the Buddhist in the far end of Tibet or some other people who never heard of Christ on what would happen to them.  God has a special means to reach them.  But for the person asking that question, chances are you have heard about the gift of Christ to be able ask those question.  If you refused to believe, it all on you now.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Seems like GH and IC are on opposite sides.

GH feels that what happens will happen between God and that person, to be determined at that time.

But IC is following the Christian rule where as you have to believe in Jesus as your savior.

I ask the question not because I am trying to determine my path, I know where I stand and I have no illusions as to where I will end up, I just wonder about others.

@IC (and maybe SGIP):

So Rabbis who don't believe in Jesus as the son of God will not end up being saved?
The followers of Islam will not live eternal life with God?
Buddhists will forever be separated from God?

No...GH and I agree.  GH is saying that it is up to God to determine who is "believer".  I don't know if GH is a Christian, but if he is...by definition he would agree that the key test is whether a person truly holds Christ as his/her savior.

As to your second question, the answer is yes.  Why does that perplex you (not trying to snarky at all)?

I agree with IC on the key test.  On the other hand, If God decides to save the others that did not meet this key test because He knows his/her true heart and intent or He has other plans for them, what is that to me and who am I to complain ?  God's standard of mercy and justice is way better than human standard.

That's why I wouldn't worry about the Buddhist in the far end of Tibet or some other people who never heard of Christ on what would happen to them.  God has a special means to reach them.  But for the person asking that question, chances are you have heard about the gift of Christ to be able ask those question.  If you refused to believe, it all on you now.

Totally agree.  The issue is really about those who had a choice but elected not to choose Christ. 

 

[irvinehomeowner]

No...GH and I agree.  GH is saying that it is up to God to determine who is "believer".  I don't know if GH is a Christian, but if he is...by definition he would agree that the key test is whether a person truly holds Christ as his/her savior.

But that's the litmus test. What if GH is just referring to God and not Jesus?

As to your second question, the answer is yes.  Why does that perplex you (not trying to snarky at all)?

It's the same reason you say morality is subjective.

Man is flawed... thus God can't expect every man to believe in Jesus. While that may be his desire, the reality is life is full of greys, not black and white. Many don't believe in Jesus because of culture, upbringing etc etc, not just because of handicaps, dying while young or whatever reasons they don't have that opportunity. If you were raised Jewish, were taught that Jesus was not the son of God, but you still revere God, you lived a moral life (as defined by the majority) and you even helped other believe in God (albeit the Jewish way), why can you not also spend eternity with God?

This is my struggle with the concept of only through Jesus one can be saved edict at the core of Christianity.

This goes back to the whole "What if you believe in the "wrong" God?" and who is the judge to determine that? As much as every Christian firmly believes that it's because the Bible says so, every other religion has their own written works that claims their way is correct too.

It's like taking a leap of faith within a leap of faith. Not only should you believe in God, but you should believe in God in only this way.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

No...GH and I agree.  GH is saying that it is up to God to determine who is "believer".  I don't know if GH is a Christian, but if he is...by definition he would agree that the key test is whether a person truly holds Christ as his/her savior.

But that's the litmus test. What if GH is just referring to God and not Jesus?

As to your second question, the answer is yes.  Why does that perplex you (not trying to snarky at all)?

It's the same reason you say morality is subjective.

Man is flawed... thus God can't expect every man to believe in Jesus. While that may be his desire, the reality is life is full of greys, not black and white. Many don't believe in Jesus because of culture, upbringing etc etc, not just because of handicaps, dying while young or whatever reasons they don't have that opportunity. If you were raised Jewish, were taught that Jesus was not the son of God, but you still revere God, you lived a moral life (as defined by the majority) and you even helped other believe in God (albeit the Jewish way), why can you not also spend eternity with God?

This is my struggle with the concept of only through Jesus one can be saved edict at the core of Christianity.

This goes back to the whole "What if you believe in the "wrong" God?" and who is the judge to determine that? As much as every Christian firmly believes that it's because the Bible says so, every other religion has their own written works that claims their way is correct too.

It's like taking a leap of faith within a leap of faith. Not only should you believe in God, but you should believe in God in only this way.

Well...GH wasn't.  He was referring to Jesus as well.

As for the leap of faith within the leap of faith...it's really no different.  If you don't want to make the leap of faith as to Christ, you can be Jewish.  But to me, Christianity is unique.

I think your issue is as to personal views of morality.  Christianity really removes that from the equation...you make a choice to follow Christ or not.  Now, you can add in a bunch of question and what ifs but the bottom line is whether you want to make that choice. 

Just as GH stated, the decision is made by God.  I have a certain belief as to what that decision is based upon but it's only really relevant as to me.  How God deals with others is out of my hands and not within my personal judgment (thank goodness).  As the President states, that decision is way above my paygrade.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

I agree with IC on the key test.  On the other hand, If God decides to save the others that did not meet this key test because He knows his/her true heart and intent or He has other plans for them, what is that to me and who am I to complain ?  God's standard of mercy and justice is way better than human standard.

I would posit that it's actually important to know this.

A large part of Christianity is discipleship. It's not just believing in Jesus, but also leading others to believe in him (excuse my lack of capitalism for expediency). But if you have a friend who is Jewish, do you "impose" your faith on him because you believe that he will not be saved any other way? Or, if you say that "God has his own plans for him", do you focus you efforts elsewhere?

That's why I wouldn't worry about the Buddhist in the far end of Tibet or some other people who never heard of Christ on what would happen to them.  God has a special means to reach them.

Yes, missionary work. But that only happens because people actually worry about that Buddhist. There are people risking their lives, actually dying, to bring the knowledge of Jesus into the Middle East. Is that reasonable? Is that what God wants?

But for the person asking that question, chances are you have heard about the gift of Christ to be able ask those question.  If you refused to believe, it all on you now.

So because you heard about Christ but choose not to believe in him but you still believe in God and are a follower of the ways as prescribed by your belief, then it becomes your fault if you don't live with God eternally?

Now, admittedly, a forum is poor form of communication to have this type of back and forth, but these are not just my questions, these are questions others have asked and it all seems to circle back to the same answer, you either believe in Jesus or you do not and then God will sort it out. Seems vague but maybe I'm too dumb or not devout enough to understand it.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

As for the leap of faith within the leap of faith...it's really no different.  If you don't want to make the leap of faith as to Christ, you can be Jewish.  But to me, Christianity is unique.

I think your issue is as to personal views of morality.  Christianity really removes that from the equation...you make a choice to follow Christ or not.  Now, you can add in a bunch of question and what ifs but the bottom line is whether you want to make that choice. 

Just as GH stated, the decision is made by God.  I have a certain belief as to what that decision is based upon but it's only really relevant as to me.  How God deals with others is out of my hands and not within my personal judgment (thank goodness).  As the President states, that decision is way above my paygrade.

Do you know anyone or have friends who don't share your faith? Do you take a stance that if they don't share your faith then you can't closely associate with them? Do you tell them about your faith and ask them how they come to their beliefs? If you don't... why not? Because it's above your paygrade?

Again, this goes back to discipleship. If others ask you these question do you just tell them "You just believe" and then walk away because it's up to God to judge them.

This isn't about you or me judging others, this is about how do you convey the message  effectively. To do that, I think these questions need to have better answers.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

IHO:

I would posit that it's actually important to know this.

A large part of Christianity is discipleship. It's not just believing in Jesus, but also leading others to believe in him (excuse my lack of capitalism for expediency). But if you have a friend who is Jewish, do you "impose" your faith on him because you believe that he will not be saved any other way? Or, if you say that "God has his own plans for him", do you focus you efforts elsewhere?

You have a misunderstanding of discipleship.  My role to spreading the word of God/Christ is to 1) bring exposure to the person and 2) share my personal story and viewpoints.  There is no "imposition."  It is up to that person to make a decision once given the information and choice.  If that person decides not to make the choice, I respect that choice and love that person as my neighbor.

People think that Christians are supposed to convert people but that's really egotistical.  I can't make someone a Christian anymore than that person can make me some other religion.  I have to make that choice.

Yes, missionary work. But that only happens because people actually worry about that Buddhist.

I don't think GH is talking about missionary.  He is talking about people who never had the opportunity to learn about God.  In those situations, you leave it up to God on what happens.  As for missionary, I don't think they limit their efforts to individual classes/groups.

There are people risking their lives, actually dying, to bring the knowledge of Jesus into the Middle East. Is that reasonable? Is that what God wants?

I don't understand this at all...

So because you heard about Christ but choose not to believe in him but you still believe in God and are a follower of the ways as prescribed by your belief, then it becomes your fault if you don't live with God eternally?

Yes because salvation for a Christian is not based upon actions.

you either believe in Jesus or you do not and then God will sort it out. Seems vague but maybe I'm too dumb or not devout enough to understand it.

That's why it's called faith.  You have the opportunity to learn about Christ and what Christianity is about.  It's your choice to decide whether it is the "right path."  If you need every question answered before you commit then no faith is required. 

 

[lowlyirvinerenter]

@IC, some questions -

• Just adding to what IHO said in a prior post, what of the people who are believers in God, but cannot decide on a faith, i.e. religion?
  
• What of Christian's that inter-marry with a Jew or person of any other religion (i.e. breaking one of the sacred 10 commandments)?
  
• What of the current pope that acknowledges other religions and their teachings, he is breaking one of the sacred commandments?
  
• 
  What happens to all the Christians, if the God is an Islamic God or a Jewish God (well, Jesus was born a Jew)? Would you choose to be with a non-Christian God for eternity even if they chose to let you in?
  

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Do you know anyone or have friends who don't share your faith? Do you take a stance that if they don't share your faith then you can't closely associate with them? Do you tell them about your faith and ask them how they come to their beliefs? If you don't... why not? Because it's above your paygrade?

Yes of course I do.  What does that have to do with whether I associate with them or not?  I am taught to love everyone regardless of their beliefs. 

I have told some people about my faith and have asked them about theirs.  But I am respectful for their decision and choices just like I would like for them to be that to me.

Again, this goes back to discipleship. If others ask you these question do you just tell them "You just believe" and then walk away because it's up to God to judge them.

I would say I am a believer because X reasons...but those reasons may or may not satisfy you.  I would encourage them to come with me to church and speak to others with more understanding than me.  I would also encourage them to speak with God and ask them to reveal Himself to him and "prove" that Christ is the right way. 

You have a fundamental misunderstanding about discipleship.  Whether someone becomes a Christian is not up to others...it's a personal decision and is based upon the unique nature/experience of each person.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Just adding to what IHO said in a prior post, what of the people who are believers in God, but cannot decide on a faith, i.e. religion?

I am not sure what answer would satisfy this question.  As a Christian, a decision has be made:  whether to accept Christ as your savior.  It's a decision that has to be made...if you don't make it, you are not a Christian.

What of Christian's that inter-marry with a Jew or person of any other religion (i.e. breaking one of the sacred 10 commandments)?

There are no "commandments" as Christians.  Christ came to save all and to allow all sins to be forgiven if you believe in Him.  Now, you can still do bad things and sinful things but there are no 10 Commandments to follow...just mortal consequences from those decision.  For example, in your scenario, you are free to marry anyone you want but having a non-believer as your spouse can lead to many issues including how to raise your family and the values you share.  But it certainly doesn't disqualify you from being saved.

BTW:  Marrying a nonbeliever doesn't break any of the 10 commandments. 

Being a Christian is more "difficult" than just following rules because Christ talks about how it's what you think and feel that is the sin.  For example, Christ states that you have sinned if you have ever been angry at someone (likened to murder) or felt jealous (likened to coveting).  That is why all fail...there is no way you can avoid those things.  Once you realize that, you become aware that nothing you do or say can be the basis of salvation...only Christ.

What of the current pope that acknowledges other religions and their teachings, he is breaking one of the sacred commandments?

I'm not Catholic and the pope is a human like everyone else.  My relationship is with God through Christ, not any other person/human being.

What happens to all the Christians, if the God is an Islamic God or a Jewish God (well, Jesus was born a Jew)? Would you choose to be with a non-Christian God for eternity even if they chose to let you in?

Well...the Islamic/Jewish/Christian God is the same...the difference is the mechanism in which you reach salvation. 

I don't know why the latter would be a question...if I die and I was "wrong" then I would be forced re-evaluate my decision making.  At that point, it's not a matter of faith.

 

[lowlyirvinerenter]

Yes, missionary work. But that only happens because people actually worry about that Buddhist.

I don't think GH is talking about missionary.  He is talking about people who never had the opportunity to learn about God.  In those situations, you leave it up to God on what happens.  As for missionary, I don't think they limit their efforts to individual classes/groups.

IC, I'm not sure if you are aware of missionary work in developing nations, including Africa. I have friends working these areas and they tell me stories of missionaries from various churches and different Christian denominations that want to convert people in believing in their "Jesus" before another church or group of missionaries approaches them. This is so prevalent that natives that believe in their gods are not given food / shelter whereas others from the same village / group that chooses to accept is given their resources. I'm not sure if this so called charity work is viewed by God in good light.

What are your thoughts on this kind of charity work?

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Yes, missionary work. But that only happens because people actually worry about that Buddhist.

I don't think GH is talking about missionary.  He is talking about people who never had the opportunity to learn about God.  In those situations, you leave it up to God on what happens.  As for missionary, I don't think they limit their efforts to individual classes/groups.

IC, I'm not sure if you are aware of missionary work in developing nations, including Africa. I have friends working these areas and they tell me stories of missionaries from various churches and different Christian denominations that want to convert people in believing in their "Jesus" before another church or group of missionaries approaches them. This is so prevalent that natives that believe in their gods are not given food / shelter whereas others from the same village / group that chooses to accept is given their resources. I'm not sure if this so called charity work is viewed by God in good light.

What are your thoughts on this kind of charity work?

I think it's terrible.  Believers and non-believers should be treated the same.  If you have Christ in your heart, your focus is on love, not "conversion."  If you see someone suffering, you should try and help alleviate that suffering.

Again, many churches put works before God.  That's a failing of humans regardless of context or result.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

IHO:

I would posit that it's actually important to know this.

A large part of Christianity is discipleship. It's not just believing in Jesus, but also leading others to believe in him (excuse my lack of capitalism for expediency). But if you have a friend who is Jewish, do you "impose" your faith on him because you believe that he will not be saved any other way? Or, if you say that "God has his own plans for him", do you focus you efforts elsewhere?

You have a misunderstanding of discipleship.  My role to spreading the word of God/Christ is to 1) bring exposure to the person and 2) share my personal story and viewpoints.  There is no "imposition."  It is up to that person to make a decision once given the information and choice.  If that person decides not to make the choice, I respect that choice and love that person as my neighbor.

People think that Christians are supposed to convert people but that's really egotistical.  I can't make someone a Christian anymore than that person can make me some other religion.  I have to make that choice.

You have a misunderstanding of what I'm trying to say. That's why "impose" is in quotes, because that's not what I mean but what it can be seen as.

I agree with what you are saying, however, what you are saying looks like a "love it or leave it" idealogy which I'm not sure is exactly what you mean. I read your previous answers as a "It's not my problem" but as you've explained it here... that's not the case.

There are people risking their lives, actually dying, to bring the knowledge of Jesus into the Middle East. Is that reasonable? Is that what God wants?

I don't understand this at all...

What I meant is should these people not care about trying to bring the knowledge of Christ to an area that it is not wanted at great risk to their lives? Back before the information age, that was necessary, but now, with the Internet, modern communication and media, is it? It's a question of how much should be done... a contrast of extremes.

So because you heard about Christ but choose not to believe in him but you still believe in God and are a follower of the ways as prescribed by your belief, then it becomes your fault if you don't live with God eternally?

Yes because salvation for a Christian is not based upon actions.

I'm sorry but this is such a canned statement. Your beliefs determine your actions, so your actions are based on what you believe. You can't believe in Christ and then go kill someone. So conversely, you can't believe in God and not live a moral (yes, I know that is subjective to you which confuses me) life.

So what I'm asking is can they be saved on their belief in God even if they don't believe in Jesus? You seem to have two answers here:

1) If you don't believe in Jesus, you can't be saved
2) It's not for you to judge, only God knows

This is what I mean by opposing answers.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

I want to go back to this:

Yes because salvation for a Christian is not based upon actions.

This has been mentioned more than once and I want to understand what you are saying.  I think you mean "not based *just* upon actions".

James 2:17,24,26

- So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
- You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
- For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

 

[jerometl]

I want to go back to this:

Yes because salvation for a Christian is not based upon actions.

This has been mentioned more than once and I want to understand what you are saying.  I think you mean "not based *just* upon actions".

James 2:17,24,26

- So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
- You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
- For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

IHO, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this.  I believe it is by faith alone (true faith between you and God).  Action/Works is just the byproduct of your faith.  If you have no action/work, can you really see face to face with Christ and say you have faith ?

Now if you say you need faith and action, now you are trying to put a human standard.  Would the person with faith but little action be saved ?  How little is little ?  where do you draw the line ?  Now you are turning the focus on the action rather than the faith.  I believe God gave us different talent and expects different things from us based on what He has given. 

Again, it is between you and God and not by any human standard or perception.  God knows your heart.  IF you can truly say that you have exercise your faith to the best of what was given you, then you should have nothing to worry.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

@GH:

What is faith without action?

As IC said about discipleship, your life, your example... is a testament to your faith.

Maybe it's just perspective or miscommunication, but "action" to me is how you live your life... you can't NOT do that.

IF you can truly say that you have exercise your faith to the best of what was given you, then you should have nothing to worry.

Isn't "exercising your faith" action?

I think there is a disconnect here. So are you telling me that James was wrong?

 

[jerometl]

@GH:

What is faith without action?

As IC said about discipleship, your life, your example... is a testament to your faith.

Maybe it's just perspective or miscommunication, but "action" to me is how you live your life... you can't NOT do that.

IF you can truly say that you have exercise your faith to the best of what was given you, then you should have nothing to worry.

Isn't "exercising your faith" action?

I think there is a disconnect here. So are you telling me that James was wrong?

This is a very bad analogy I think but this is the only thing I can think of for now.

You just did your oath of allegiance to become a US citizen.  That's all you need to become a citizen (of course apart from passing other legal requirements).  As a citizen, It is your duty to "support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic" etc etc  .. Is that a requirement ?  No it is not. you can be US citizen without ever the intent of doing that if the time come, but the US government does not know your heart / true intent.

Same thing with being a Christian, but since God knows everything, you cannot be a Christian in paper only.  Your faith in Christ is all that is needed.  It is your duty to follow Christ, but not being able to do certain actions/works won't disqualify you from being a Christian, but if you are doing the works/actions of a Christian, you have a lot of explaining to do to an all-knowing God.  Thus, it is NOT a requirement.. it is more of a duty or byproduct of your faith.

 

[sgip]

On the "faith/works" question: One can call themselves a chef, but until you prepare a meal for someone, are you really someone who can cook?

A Christian is saved by faith alone. Works are an outgrowth of that faith. How do I know this? The Thief on the cross didn't have much time to perform works, but by his sole profession of faith, Christ welcomed him into paradise.

Thanks for keeping the dialogue going, and civil. Iron does in fact sharpen iron.

My .02c