Dow?

[adventurous]

You are likely confusing non-qualified stock options (NQSOs) and incentive stock options (ISOs)

Bezos and most top tier executive likely got ISOs.

NQSOs do have to pay income tax.

But ISOs, you won?t have to pay income tax when you exercise the stock option.

You forgot about AMT. ISO's a subject for AMT, when you exercise it, even if you hold them.

 

[Kenkoko]

You are likely confusing non-qualified stock options (NQSOs) and incentive stock options (ISOs)

Bezos and most top tier executive likely got ISOs.

NQSOs do have to pay income tax.

But ISOs, you won?t have to pay income tax when you exercise the stock option.

You forgot about AMT. ISO's a subject for AMT, when you exercise it, even if you hold them.

Both capital gains tax and AMT have lower max rate than income tax.

And there are plenty of ways to avoid paying AMT.

AMT is so easy to game for wealthy people at the top. Look at how much revenue AMT brought in.

As of tax year 2018, the AMT raises total of $5.2 billion, just 0.4% of all federal income tax revenue.

Income tax no matter how progressive you want to tweak it, is not our top problem. Have to fix the corporate tax loopholes first.

 

[adventurous]

Both capital gains tax and AMT have lower max rate than income tax.

26% and 28% flat. How many people pay 26% average on the income tax to IRS?

And there are plenty of ways to avoid paying AMT.

It's easy to say, but not so much easy to do for an individual.

AMT is so easy to game for wealthy people at the top. Look at how much revenue AMT brought in.

As of tax year 2018, the AMT raises total of $5.2 billion, just 0.4% of all federal income tax revenue.

Easy to game? I can rest assure you, it's not.

 

[Kenkoko]

Both capital gains tax and AMT have lower max rate than income tax.

26% and 28% flat. How many people pay 26% average on the income tax to IRS?

And there are plenty of ways to avoid paying AMT.

It's easy to say, but not so much easy to do for an individual.

AMT is so easy to game for wealthy people at the top. Look at how much revenue AMT brought in.

As of tax year 2018, the AMT raises total of $5.2 billion, just 0.4% of all federal income tax revenue.

Easy to game? I can rest assure you, it's not.

You are talking about taxing someone super wealthy like Bezos. 26/28 percent vs. 37% income tax is already a big advantage.

Not sure what point you're trying to make. AMT does not get the wealthy to pay their fair share. Look at how much ATM raised in tax revenue.

5.2 billion a year only accounts for 0.4% of total federal income tax revenue. 

AMT won't change anything when it comes to inequality. Doesn't matter if you double it or half it.

It's insignificant in the grand scheme.

 

[nosuchreality]

I thought the same as you back 10 years ago.  How can the FED keep doing QE??? and printing money?
Well....they can and they will.

Because if they don't, it's the end of the world as we know it.

DOW 30,000, here we come.

This liquidity, FOMO, TINA rally, whatever you want to call it, is not sustainable. It has no foundation in earnings, growth or future expected growth. It is Fed manufactured.

the wealth gap has widened even further since the pandemic broke. That?s dangerous because the people who have lost their jobs are the real economy and consumer spending is key to any growth. As this wealth gap widens between holders of stock and ones just trying to hold onto their jobs, further Fed action may be necessary.

Won't that just widen it further?

Exactly. So are they fixing the problems or speeding up the inferno?

Only one problem, no one knows how long they can keep kicking the can down the road. It may be longer than we are alive.

Until China stops buyng our treasury bonds.

 

[nosuchreality]

Both capital gains tax and AMT have lower max rate than income tax.

26% and 28% flat. How many people pay 26% average on the income tax to IRS?

And there are plenty of ways to avoid paying AMT.

It's easy to say, but not so much easy to do for an individual.

AMT is so easy to game for wealthy people at the top. Look at how much revenue AMT brought in.

As of tax year 2018, the AMT raises total of $5.2 billion, just 0.4% of all federal income tax revenue.

Easy to game? I can rest assure you, it's not.

You are talking about taxing someone super wealthy like Bezos. 26/28 percent vs. 37% income tax is already a big advantage.

Not sure what point you're trying to make. AMT does not get the wealthy to pay their fair share. Look at how much ATM raised in tax revenue.

5.2 billion a year only accounts for 0.4% of total federal income tax revenue. 

AMT won't change anything when it comes to inequality. Doesn't matter if you double it or half it.

It's insignificant in the grand scheme.

Income is production, you don't tax production.  You tax wealth.  Wealth assets.

How much do people hate wealth taxes? Lots.  Property tax = wealth tax. Your annual car tax = wealty tax.

Stick that jewel on retained earnings and finiancial instruments.

 

[qwerty]

I thought the same as you back 10 years ago.  How can the FED keep doing QE??? and printing money?
Well....they can and they will.

Because if they don't, it's the end of the world as we know it.

DOW 30,000, here we come.

This liquidity, FOMO, TINA rally, whatever you want to call it, is not sustainable. It has no foundation in earnings, growth or future expected growth. It is Fed manufactured.

the wealth gap has widened even further since the pandemic broke. That?s dangerous because the people who have lost their jobs are the real economy and consumer spending is key to any growth. As this wealth gap widens between holders of stock and ones just trying to hold onto their jobs, further Fed action may be necessary.

Won't that just widen it further?

Exactly. So are they fixing the problems or speeding up the inferno?

Only one problem, no one knows how long they can keep kicking the can down the road. It may be longer than we are alive.

Until China stops buyng our treasury bonds.

Japan actually owns more debt than China now. China owns about 4% of US debt.

 

[Kings]

bezos paid his ex-wife $38b

that's the ultimate tax

 

[adventurous]

You are talking about taxing someone super wealthy like Bezos. 26/28 percent vs. 37% income tax is already a big advantage.

Not sure what point you're trying to make. AMT does not get the wealthy to pay their fair share. Look at how much ATM raised in tax revenue.

5.2 billion a year only accounts for 0.4% of total federal income tax revenue. 

AMT won't change anything when it comes to inequality. Doesn't matter if you double it or half it.

It's insignificant in the grand scheme.

Basically, we have busted the myth that riches don't pay taxes, or pay less taxes than the Main Street. 26%-28%  average  tax rate is probably way more than an average tax rate. It's not 37%, but it carries some serious risks, such as a price drop during the vesting period + 1 year, etc. How many office clerks would like to get paid this way?
It's not 37% for sure, but it doesn't have to be. Money market interest rates are way smaller than the risky stock interest, but MMA is a guaranteed, while the stock investment can drop down to zero very quickly.
The fact that AMT doesn't contribute much to the fiscal assessments means the CEO paychecks are a small drop in the overall U.S. payroll.

 

[Kenkoko]

bezos paid his ex-wife $38b

that's the ultimate tax

What a fool... he didn't realize that marriages counted as recognized unions  >

 

[Kenkoko]

Income is production, you don't tax production.  You tax wealth.  Wealth assets.

How much do people hate wealth taxes? Lots.  Property tax = wealth tax. Your annual car tax = wealty tax.

Stick that jewel on retained earnings and finiancial instruments.

Agree with moving away from taxing income/production.

I think taxing consumption has to be part of the solution, in addition to taxing financial transactions.

I don't personally support the wealth tax but I see why the spirit of a wealth tax is very appealing to many.

It's increasingly becoming a winner take all economy where the wealth gets concentrated to the very few at the top. Top 1% has 37% of the total wealth while the bottom 50% has 1.6% of the total wealth.

The more we keep going down this winner take all path, the more people will demand taxing the rich.

 

[qwerty]

The issue with taxing wealth is that you are perpetually taxing the same dollar vs taxing it once which is unfair. Personal income tax is taxed once.

Then there is the issue of liquidity with a wealth tax. If someone has all their wealth tied up in illiquid assets forcing sales of assets to pay for taxes isn?t ideal. 

 

[eyephone]

Really big companies are paying no taxes. Even after lower corporate tax rate.
The government looks the other way. What do you expect from Munchin the Secretary of Treasury. He was the previous CEO of Indymac bank. Lol
Google the word Indymac bank if you do not believe me.

 

[Kenkoko]

The issue with taxing wealth is that you are perpetually taxing the same dollar vs taxing it once which is unfair. Personal income tax is taxed once.

Then there is the issue of liquidity with a wealth tax. If someone has all their wealth tied up in illiquid assets forcing sales of assets to pay for taxes isn?t ideal.

Agree.

Although I'd take out the "unfair" part and change it with "taxing the same money over and over again erodes the $ you have to tax".

I've had lengthy discussions with people who support the wealth tax and they would point out that if we really cared about fairness, we wouldn't privilege capital gains and investment income versus earned income. It's a sound counter point.

I'd add the unfair element back in different argument tho. Wealth tax unfairly encourages spending and punishes saving. Do we want more Dan Bilzerian? My answer is No.

Another big problem with the wealth tax is the cost to administer. It's an inefficient way to tax.

 

[Kenkoko]

Really big companies are paying no taxes. Even after lower corporate tax rate.
The government looks the other way. What do you expect from Munchin the Secretary of Treasury. He was the previous CEO of Indymac bank. Lol
Google the word Indymac bank if you do not believe me.

Couldn't agree more. Many people don't see a trillion dollar company like amazon routinely pays $0 in federal taxes as top problem.

Instead they get sucked into partisan warfare fighting for scraps. It's sad

Fix corporate tax loopholes should be bipartisan  :'(

 

[adventurous]

I could be mistaken, but the biggest corporate loophole is to ship the jobs overseas.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Dow going back up.

Is the economy getting better?

 

[adventurous]

I was completely expecting it to bounce back today. It appears the economy is even stronger than I expected

 

[morekaos]

Had a long talk with one of my people who runs a major group of textile mills here and abroad.  Wont' go into the brand but they panicked when Covid hit and closed down fast in anticipation of a very slow recovery.  I told him then, that would be a huge mistake as this would blow over and they would be caught with a supply choke when things opened up again.  The board overruled any caution and hit the brakes hard.  Thursday, they are panicking again... now desperate to find production to meet the avalanche of orders that have inundated them.  They are trying to find production in Argentina and any where else.  Tried to warn them and now they are paying the price.  This company is not unusual...others are realizing their mistakes...never underestimate America!!!

 

[eyephone]

Sorry no one believes the fake financial guy.