Bull run in housing over???

The top is definitely in.....any minor price increases this year is just the blow-off top. Not expecting Irvine to crash, but there will be a downturn.
http://www.nreionline.com/finance-investment/are-chinese-shifting-real-estate-buyers-sellers

This is not Toronto or Vancouver...this is Irvine during the peak sales season (Spring-Summer)

igavzm.jpg
 
USCTrojanCPA said:
Very well said. The "nut job" will be the person who'll say that real estate prices will continue to grind higher.  Heck even I thought we would be flat on prices this year with rates ticking up but I was wrong and we are already up 5%+ this year in prices (even more so in the sub $800k market).  I know I sound like a broken record, but I'll keep saying this....watch inventory levels, they will be your tell where real estate prices are heading in the near terms.


I will tell you why  ... in my profession I come across many financial institution management teams and the one thing they all agree on behind closed doors is -- it is much easier to sound "smart" when you are being seen as "cautious" and "thoughtful" and "defensive".  nobody gets reprimanded by their bosses or tv critics if you sound negative and throw a bunch of model-driven garbage charts at it.   

This "disease" particularly ails those investing in fixed income like government and corporate bonds and mortgages -- heaven forbid if you are perceived as sounding a bit too cheerful or optimistic, you are considered a rube and too simplistic and naive. 

dont look at what people are saying but look at where they are putting their own $$ and investments. For every rich dude on TV who is finding it "increasingly difficult to invest" and being "careful with his clients' money", he (or she) is throwing own money into illiquid alternative investment, private mortgage funds, direct consumer lending and all kinds of stuff which would prove to be really toxic if their own prophecies came true. 

they are all afraid of being perceived as "optimistic" on the eventual day when the gloom and doom is proven right.  Note , I said "perceived"  -- as nothing kills marketing for asset managers as being thought of as "dumb money".  Although an exaggeration, it is kind of like that HBO's Silicon Valley episode where being outed as a hardcore Christian in the Bay Area tech community is the most damaging to one of the employees at Pied Piper.

 
USCTrojanCPA said:
fortune11 said:
There is no housing crash coming in Irvine. And if you are waiting for a crash, you will eventually regret not buying a home when you should have.  If things are a bit soft , negotiate harder, or cast a wider net,  but don't stay out of the game. 

I have said this before several times on this forum (perhaps in other threads) -- inflation is a global phenomenon not local.  the world is awash in excess capacity (for nearly everything).  employment is low , but are wages really going up much ? not exactly.  the big companies are getting bigger and the employee voluntary "quit rate" which I s the real indicator of wage pressures is not really that high except for a few sectors. 

Fed is moving a lot faster in terms of raising rates than any other central bank .  Why ? because they can afford to. US is performing better than nearly every other developed country out there.  But what does that lead to ?  Stronger dollar.  What does stronger dollar lead to  ?  You guessed right --> Lower inflation

Now one could say trade war can throw a wrench in all this and in theory this may seem right  -- after all if global trade decreases then dollar going up shouldn't really cause a deflation, right. ?  But hang on -- what happens to S&P500 that derives nearly half its revenue globally ?    Yup, equities take a big hit , P/E multiples come down --- and lo and behold , interest rates go down as investors flee to safety

One thing is clear --- equity market is NOT pricing in impact of trade wars.  The day it starts to , we are in for a decent size 5-10% correction in the stock market .  Now that doesn't necessarily translate to similar correction in housing , just means home sales volumes might slow down or buyers might get the upper hand for a change. 

So next time you hear a supposed expert blathering on CNN / CNBC , know this  -- they are throwing out sound bytes and not really making an effort to connect the dots. 

Very well said. The "nut job" will be the person who'll say that real estate prices will continue to grind higher.  Heck even I thought we would be flat on prices this year with rates ticking up but I was wrong and we are already up 5%+ this year in prices (even more so in the sub $800k market).  I know I sound like a broken record, but I'll keep saying this....watch inventory levels, they will be your tell where real estate prices are heading in the near terms.

So whats been the inventory trend lately?
 
fortune11 said:
Halos said:
The top is definitely in.....any minor price increases this year is just the blow-off top. Not expecting Irvine to crash, but there will be a downturn.
http://www.nreionline.com/finance-investment/are-chinese-shifting-real-estate-buyers-sellers

This is not Toronto or Vancouver...this is Irvine during the peak sales season (Spring-Summer)

igavzm.jpg

The only crash and downturn we have seen this year is in bitcoin.  now that's a chart for the ages ...

Yes, a lot of money was made, and is still being made in cryptocurrency volatility trading.

Profits will be taken in RE as well....just as it's always been the case.

You may be right, but I wouldn't put money on it. Toronto, London, NYC, Sydney...all experiencing declines, with big cracks.
 
fortune11 said:
There is no housing crash coming in Irvine.

I think there will be a crash for properties at or over the 2 million mark coming.  Go check the inventory and see the number of houses not he market compared to a few years ago for houses over 2 mil.


fortune11 said:
but are wages really going up much ? not exactly.

Yes, I'd say, in coastal cities like Orange County.  Anecdotal but I recently had to switch jobs if I didn't want to move to Texas ( ??? ) and was prepared to either take a big pay cut to work for a local tech company or have to find another remote Bay Area job.  Turns out, the OC employment world changed in the last 5 years and there are actually a lot more companies out there making competitive offers.



fortune11 said:
One thing is clear --- equity market is NOT pricing in impact of trade wars.  The day it starts to , we are in for a decent size 5-10% correction in the stock market .  Now that doesn't necessarily translate to similar correction in housing , just means home sales volumes might slow down or buyers might get the upper hand for a change. 

If money flees the stock market, it's gotta go somewhere. Unless there's some magic government bond with amazing yield that I don't know about, I don't see how a crashing stock market does anything but keep the RE and PE bubble inflated even longer. 
 
ThirtySomethingWEquity said:
If money flees the stock market, it's gotta go somewhere. Unless there's some magic government bond with amazing yield that I don't know about, I don't see how a crashing stock market does anything but keep the RE and PE bubble inflated even longer.

Looking at major metropolitan housing bubbles (Toronto, NYC, Sydney) that money better come in quick to plug the holes.
 
I highly doubt that there is any bubble HERE, in Irvine. Will the BULL RUN stop? Yes, now it will stroll and struts wag the tails and even stop for some lickin?.
 
ThirtySomethingWEquity said:
I think there will be a crash for properties at or over the 2 million mark coming.  Go check the inventory and see the number of houses not he market compared to a few years ago for houses over 2 mil.

Yes, I'd say, in coastal cities like Orange County.  Anecdotal but I recently had to switch jobs if I didn't want to move to Texas ( ??? ) and was prepared to either take a big pay cut to work for a local tech company or have to find another remote Bay Area job.  Turns out, the OC employment world changed in the last 5 years and there are actually a lot more companies out there making competitive offers.


If money flees the stock market, it's gotta go somewhere. Unless there's some magic government bond with amazing yield that I don't know about, I don't see how a crashing stock market does anything but keep the RE and PE bubble inflated even longer.

Yes, and as I mentioned a few sectors are the exception here such as the tech sector you are a part of.  Interestingly enough, Irvine and OC's concentration in tech and healthcare is also what makes it more resilient in terms of housing demand. 

As to properties over $2mm , it depends how you define as a "crash".  There is no real "index" or "beta" for homes in that range as they are mostly unique situations.  If a buyer has overpriced his listing and is forced to negotiate down 5% is that really a 5% drop in prices ? hard to say. I suspect, as this market continues to soften, you will see sellers pull back as well. 

NYC condo market and the rental market has been slowing down for a while now and again symptoms there can be tied back to muted employment and wage growth.  the financial industry is nowhere what it used to be in terms of job creation and bonuses compared to what we saw in 2006.  It is also being hit much harder by automation and AI especially on the trading side. 
 
I can?t imagining a crash happening in the higher end OC cities. Flat to slightly down perhaps. Too many people have very favorable mortgages, sub 4% 30-year loans and locked in lower property taxes, which is one of the reasons preventing them from moving up, this will constrain supply. Also most buyers in the last 6-8 years probably put down something closer to 20%. Rates are still relatively favorable as well. I do tend to agree that prices seem to have topped out.
 
As I mentioned before (on this and other threads)Trade War isn't priced in ... mkt now finally starting to pay attention to it .. S&P has breached 50day moving average today on the way down for the first time in many weeks -- if it closes there , expect more pain to come in equities.  interest rates will continue to stay here or come down further .
 
fortune11 said:
As I mentioned before (on this and other threads)Trade War isn't priced in ... mkt now finally starting to pay attention to it .. S&P has breached 50day moving average today on the way down for the first time in many weeks -- if it closes there , expect more pain to come in equities.  interest rates will continue to stay here or come down further .

10YD is down this morning too.
 
the.irvine said:
fortune11 said:
As I mentioned before (on this and other threads)Trade War isn't priced in ... mkt now finally starting to pay attention to it .. S&P has breached 50day moving average today on the way down for the first time in many weeks -- if it closes there , expect more pain to come in equities.  interest rates will continue to stay here or come down further .

10YD is down this morning too.

yes - and it will probably break 2.5% on the way down if this continues.  Fed will be forced to pull back on pace of hikes.

now all the "how to deal with rising rates" marketing emails from financial advisors can be shelved for a few months while they figure out how to spin all this...
 
qwerty said:
I can?t imagining a crash happening in the higher end OC cities. Flat to slightly down perhaps. Too many people have very favorable mortgages, sub 4% 30-year loans and locked in lower property taxes, which is one of the reasons preventing them from moving up, this will constrain supply. Also most buyers in the last 6-8 years probably put down something closer to 20%. Rates are still relatively favorable as well. I do tend to agree that prices seem to have topped out.
Agree with this completely; Anything that happens on the downside will likely be on the smaller scale. I certainly wouldn't be looking at 08 as an example of what is going to happen during the next downturn. All that said, everything is cyclical so obviously at some point their will be a downturn.  If I could predict when to a penny, I'd be far more wealthy. 
 
ThirtySomethingWEquity said:
If money flees the stock market, it's gotta go somewhere. Unless there's some magic government bond with amazing yield that I don't know about, I don't see how a crashing stock market does anything but keep the RE and PE bubble inflated even longer.

Some of the money that flees the stock market goes somewhere. The rest of the money that was left in the stock market evaporates into thin air when the stock market goes down significantly.
 
paperboyNC said:
ThirtySomethingWEquity said:
If money flees the stock market, it's gotta go somewhere. Unless there's some magic government bond with amazing yield that I don't know about, I don't see how a crashing stock market does anything but keep the RE and PE bubble inflated even longer.

Some of the money that flees the stock market goes somewhere. The rest of the money that was left in the stock market evaporates into thin air when the stock market goes down significantly.

Just checked my brokerage account, doesnt look very good. Lots of reds
 
paperboyNC said:
ThirtySomethingWEquity said:
If money flees the stock market, it's gotta go somewhere. Unless there's some magic government bond with amazing yield that I don't know about, I don't see how a crashing stock market does anything but keep the RE and PE bubble inflated even longer.

Some of the money that flees the stock market goes somewhere. The rest of the money that was left in the stock market evaporates into thin air when the stock market goes down significantly.

the thing is cash used to be yielding 0% .  now you can earn 2.5%+ on a 2 year government bond with zero risk if you hold to maturity.  everything else has to compete with that.  I know banks aren't really passing on those higher interest rates to deposit savers yet.
 
Just did a quick search on the internet, and you can get 1.80% interest for Goldman Sachs savings account.
 
Monopi, posted a good strategy for CD laddering.

You can use this strategy for Bonds as well.

Its a good problem to have, is that you need to find place to store your goods vs. looking for place to borrow in time of need.
 
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