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jmoney74
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Irvinecommuter said:
he resorted to force powers? LOL.
Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Warning: Possible Spoilers)
- Thread starter irvinehomeowner
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he resorted to force powers? LOL.
J
jmoney74
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fortune11 said:irvinehomeowner said:Irvinecommuter said:
Because we have no concrete definition of ?force-sensitivity? and that can be changed at the whim of the writer/director.
Anakin was born via immaculate midichlorians... maybe that?s how Michael Jordan was born.
I am waiting for the day a jaded Michael Jordan will casually chuck his NBA rings over his shoulders into a trash heap
Hammil had to recently apologize for bagging on his character change (Disney was in full force on this). Which is the point of this whole discussion. Luke desiring to kill his own nephew in his sleep is out of character plus him giving up on everything is out of character. SW changed.. for better or worse. For me, it is worse but top 20 All time won't change the minds of Disney. They will continue down this path unless it actually takes a dump like Justice League.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
jmoney74 said:
Whoah... maybe we should start a new thread but I thought Justice League was the best one out of the new DC cinematic universe.
Irvinecommuter
New member
jmoney74 said:fortune11 said:irvinehomeowner said:Irvinecommuter said:
Because we have no concrete definition of ?force-sensitivity? and that can be changed at the whim of the writer/director.
Anakin was born via immaculate midichlorians... maybe that?s how Michael Jordan was born.
I am waiting for the day a jaded Michael Jordan will casually chuck his NBA rings over his shoulders into a trash heap
Hammil had to recently apologize for bagging on his character change (Disney was in full force on this). Which is the point of this whole discussion. Luke desiring to kill his own nephew in his sleep is out of character plus him giving up on everything is out of character. SW changed.. for better or worse. For me, it is worse but top 20 All time won't change the minds of Disney. They will continue down this path unless it actually takes a dump like Justice League.
It absolutely is not out of character. Luke is all about instincts and his instincts failed him with respect to Ben. That was one of the big reason why he felt that he failed.
Also, the concept that a person stays static and never change is an odd one to me. Just because Luke was a certain way in OS does not mean that he would always be that way. It's not a fairy tale.
https://www.polygon.com/2018/1/1/16781402/star-wars-last-jedi-spoilers-luke-skywalker-kylo-ren-rey
SW definitely changed but considering what Disney did with Rogue One and CW and now TLJ, it is definitely much better than the simple good vs evil motif in the OS.
Irvinecommuter
New member
irvinehomeowner said:Irvinecommuter said:
Because we have no concrete definition of ?force-sensitivity? and that can be changed at the whim of the writer/director.
Anakin was born via immaculate midichlorians... maybe that?s how Michael Jordan was born.
Lucas already did that before. The midcholorian thing was something that came out of nowhere in TPM...and people hated it.
Again, since jedis don't normally have offspring, force sensitive beings are all over the universe and recruited/taken. Sith do the same. How is the force wielding child in TLJ any different than Anakin in TPM.
Irvinecommuter
New member
fortune11 said:irvinehomeowner said:Irvinecommuter said:
Because we have no concrete definition of ?force-sensitivity? and that can be changed at the whim of the writer/director.
Anakin was born via immaculate midichlorians... maybe that?s how Michael Jordan was born.
I am waiting for the day a jaded Michael Jordan will casually chuck his NBA rings over his shoulders into a trash heap
Maybe not MJ but the traits/abilities of a great warriors can be similarly seen as genetics and many a warrior have become cynical and hermited themselves at the end of their career.
Like I said before, Obi and Yoda both did the same.
Irvinecommuter
New member
jmoney74 said:
Point being that the fight between Luke and DV weren't that far off from what happened between Kylo and Ren...Luke managed to take the upper hand for a time and push Vader off the ledge. He then fought Vader to standstill before getting pulled away by the vacuum.
People have this romanticized view of things in their past...the OS contained plenty of plot holes and issues but no one seem to care about them now.
I get that the movie messes with a lot of the traditional narratives from the OS but I really wish people would step out of that mindset and considered what is being offered and presented. I loved Rogue One and CW for same reason.
J
jmoney74
Guest
irvinehomeowner said:
Yes new thread. I can shieeet on JL better than TLJ for sure. Lol.
Batman:. Mother boxes? I don't know what they are buy hey
I think we can bring back Superman with them.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
jmoney74 said:
They had to figure out a way to bring Supes back and since they were already using the motherbox for Cyborg... why not.
Not even close to what happens in the comics but then again, Doomsday wasn't created from Zod either.
Most of the DC cinematic universe (even Marvel for that matter) strays from the comics, but as an entertaining movie, I enjoyed it more than the previous ones. Wonder Woman was the best reviewed but I did not like it as much as JL.
J
jmoney74
Guest
Irvinecommuter said:
Luke actually started saber training with obi won. He probably continued that after.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
There is still a difference. If I remember correctly, Luke had been trained by Obi and shortly trained by Yoda prior to his fight with Vader. Rey had not even wielded a light saber before her fight with Kylo. Granted, her being able to fight with a staff may have given her some foreknowledge but not to the extent that she was able to go toe to toe with Kylo who had been trained from youth and had the power of the dark side with him (regardless of his wound which he kept hitting hilariously).Irvinecommuter said:
That's not true. There are tons of discussions about the OS plot holes but that was in the 70s/80s and the first trilogy. Because the new trilogy has 6 movies (and tons of other material) to pull from, they should be more consistent with some of the underlying principles set up by the previous movies.
Again, everyone has their opinion. I find it interesting that you seem to be arguing with everyone like you have the right answer when as I said previously, there is no right or wrong other than what each of us personally think about it.
Most of us will agree that overall, we liked the movie, but there are parts about it that just seem very off to us. And that's what happens when movies are done by different writers/directors and at different times. Even the same writer/director can mess it up (see the prequels). Things can go astray within a trilogy... The Matrix is a good example of this. Great first movie, meh second movie and horrible 3rd one (again, in my opinion).
When you deviate too much from things that were established in the OS without explanation (which I think is really the sticking point), it becomes a "What?!?" type of reaction. That's why Rogue One was good... it didn't deviate from the OS, explained some backstory and really showed us why Vader was feared throughout the galaxy. Now if Jyn had picked up a light saber and started dispatching Stormtroopers and then fought Vader... we would probably see the same outrage.
Back to my rants:
Now seeing how Ben/Kylo turned, I still don't get why he killed his dad. I can understand him wanting to kill Luke but what did Han do? That really made no sense, especially because he couldn't pull the trigger on Leia.
And how does a Jedi train to counter the vacuum of space?
Irvinecommuter
New member
Luke trained with Obi for on the MF for like a day with the blaster shield/the droid, which he sucked at. And then Obi Wan died. Not sure how much that adds to his sword training. Luke and Anakin were also super pilot right off the bat but everyone just took that as normal.
Again, Luke had absolutely no hand to hand combat training before meeting obi but then stood up to one of the greatest sith lords of all time. Kylo is a child compared to DV.
Kylo kept hitting his wound as a way to tap into pain and the DS (an issue from TFA, not TLJ)
Exactly, we are literally like a month out from TLJ. I mean the huge plot in ANH regarding the DS wasn't explained until R1 and people spend a ton of time making up fan theories and fanfics to fill plot holes after the OS came out. Everyone seemed to be okay with those explanations. But with TLJ, it is immediately written off and no explanations are proper.
I am not sure that OS is consistent with the prequels. OS was black/white or good/evil while focusing largely on small narratives...prequels were all sorts of grey and placed a larger emphasis on the bigger picture.
Of course, it is why we talked about movies. My issue is that people can't dislike TLJ...it's the explanations. Oh...Rey is a Mary Sue but Luke's journey was great. Oh it is BS that they don't talk about Snoke but EP popping up in the middle of ESB is totally okay. There is no way that Kylo could have killed Snoke but DV picking up EP with one hand after being heavily wounded and throwing EP down a energy shaft is totally okay. No way that Luke could have become cynical or jaded when if fact Yoda and Obi both did the same.
I mean we totally accept that DV was Luke's father now but that was pretty random. I mean we accepted fuzzy primitive bears taking down imperial troops and that the Empire couldn't take down rebels in ROTJ.
R1 literally introduced the concept that non-jedis can tap into the force and do great things. Not a single jedi or lightsaber to be found in R1 and lots of people dying...complete deviation from OS. It showed the Alliance to be this fractured assembly of scared worlds rather than a single unifying resistance...again different from the OS.
And as I stated before, TLJ didn't deviate too much from the themes introduced in OS and prequels...a lot of people just reconfigured what they recalled from the OS.
Because he constantly struggled with the LS. Just like Anakin and Luke struggled with DS, Kylo struggled against the LS. Luke chose not to kill his father in ROTJ because he resisted the DS while Kylo killed his father because he resisted the LS.
Anakin went through a similar struggle in the prequels...killing Dooku, almost killing Padme, and then finally killing all the jedi padawans.
The Leia scene was bad so I can't really defend it...especially since there were better and more reasonable way to depict Leia's powers. But here is Johnson's explanation.
https://www.express.co.uk/entertain...rrie-Fisher-scene-explained-space-death-Force
Liar Loan
Well-known member
When it comes to well-written fantasy stories, magic is special because it is rarely seen by the inhabitants of the world. I think Lucas understood this when he wrote the original Star Wars, and he remained disciplined with episodes V & VI. Whenever Obi-Wan, Luke, Yoda, Vader, or the Emperor used their powers, it was almost always around other Jedi's/Sith and not in view of the other main characters of the story. Vader did choke some fools out here and there, but that was about it. Lightsaber battles were something that were had in private, like an ancient martial arts competition.
The rareness of Jedi powers was also exhibited by Han Solo's comment:
Han Solo: Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.
Luke Skywalker: You don't believe in the Force, do you?
Han Solo: Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny.
And also by Vader's interaction here:
Darth Vader: Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
Admiral Motti: Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you clairvoyance enough to find the rebels' hidden fort-...
[Vader makes a pinching motion and Motti starts choking]
Darth Vader: I find your lack of faith disturbing.
The comment by Admiral Motti seems particularly out of place given Vader's bad-assery only a few hours before at the end of Rogue One. Why would Motti dare make such a comment after Vader had just massacred a dozen Rebel fighters with his lightsaber? And why did Vader waste such awesome powers on a bunch of low-level nobodies? Doesn't he have storm troopers to handle that?
And only a few days later, he fought like a grandma against Obi-Wan, but they had this weird thing called "dialogue" while they were fighting. So it wasn't just a lightsaber duel, but something that moved the plot forward... And by losing that fight, Obi-Wan ended up winning. The lightsaber duels in those days were less about slapping light sticks together, and more about the personal growth that occurred while the duel was being fought.
George Lucas, as everybody knows, lost all sense of discipline when writing the prequels. Now four-armed robots could wield light sabers, kids could wield light sabers (and be killed by them), and having a high midichlorian count could help you win pod races. It's almost as if everything in the prequels was written with a merchandising perspective in mind.
Now that Disney owns the franchise, they are making Jedi powers even less special. Apparently, this power that was so rare that Han Solo had never encountered it in his smuggling career, and Admiral Motti openly mocked it as sorcery, is now wieldable by anybody that closes their eyes and "feels the force".
Any kid can be a Jedi now...even you! So come to the new Star Wars land on a 5-day pass and sign up for Jedi training with the whole family!
The rareness of Jedi powers was also exhibited by Han Solo's comment:
Han Solo: Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.
Luke Skywalker: You don't believe in the Force, do you?
Han Solo: Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny.
And also by Vader's interaction here:
Darth Vader: Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
Admiral Motti: Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure up the stolen data tapes, or given you clairvoyance enough to find the rebels' hidden fort-...
[Vader makes a pinching motion and Motti starts choking]
Darth Vader: I find your lack of faith disturbing.
The comment by Admiral Motti seems particularly out of place given Vader's bad-assery only a few hours before at the end of Rogue One. Why would Motti dare make such a comment after Vader had just massacred a dozen Rebel fighters with his lightsaber? And why did Vader waste such awesome powers on a bunch of low-level nobodies? Doesn't he have storm troopers to handle that?
And only a few days later, he fought like a grandma against Obi-Wan, but they had this weird thing called "dialogue" while they were fighting. So it wasn't just a lightsaber duel, but something that moved the plot forward... And by losing that fight, Obi-Wan ended up winning. The lightsaber duels in those days were less about slapping light sticks together, and more about the personal growth that occurred while the duel was being fought.
George Lucas, as everybody knows, lost all sense of discipline when writing the prequels. Now four-armed robots could wield light sabers, kids could wield light sabers (and be killed by them), and having a high midichlorian count could help you win pod races. It's almost as if everything in the prequels was written with a merchandising perspective in mind.
Now that Disney owns the franchise, they are making Jedi powers even less special. Apparently, this power that was so rare that Han Solo had never encountered it in his smuggling career, and Admiral Motti openly mocked it as sorcery, is now wieldable by anybody that closes their eyes and "feels the force".
Any kid can be a Jedi now...even you! So come to the new Star Wars land on a 5-day pass and sign up for Jedi training with the whole family!
There is also one big (and obvious) difference between the original series and the ones coming out now --
The original was groundbreaking, an experimentation , shattered existing notions about movie making -- and so it gets a lot of leeway with plot holes even if there were any. People were just shocked and awed at the whole spectacle. The biggest issues for Lucas (even besides plot holes) were how to get it done given the extreme conditions where they shot it and the total blank slate in terms of lack of CGI support or how to make any and all of this look real.
The new one is coming in an era of 24x7 social media , in an age when your iPhone holds more computing power than all the 60s 70s space launches combined , and the best talent and support money can buy. This is why every single plot hole is magnified and scrutinized.
It is like if you drive a Lamborghini Countach in the 70s - it was an awful car compared to present standards (I am not saying Orig Star Wars is awful), but it was way ahead of its time and changed car design and gave birth to a whole new category of cars. But Lamborghinis and other cars of today are obviously held to a much higher standard .
Lucas was an inventor , Rian Johnson is standing on his shoulders making a mass market money grabber and he needs to be held to a much higher standard .
The original was groundbreaking, an experimentation , shattered existing notions about movie making -- and so it gets a lot of leeway with plot holes even if there were any. People were just shocked and awed at the whole spectacle. The biggest issues for Lucas (even besides plot holes) were how to get it done given the extreme conditions where they shot it and the total blank slate in terms of lack of CGI support or how to make any and all of this look real.
The new one is coming in an era of 24x7 social media , in an age when your iPhone holds more computing power than all the 60s 70s space launches combined , and the best talent and support money can buy. This is why every single plot hole is magnified and scrutinized.
It is like if you drive a Lamborghini Countach in the 70s - it was an awful car compared to present standards (I am not saying Orig Star Wars is awful), but it was way ahead of its time and changed car design and gave birth to a whole new category of cars. But Lamborghinis and other cars of today are obviously held to a much higher standard .
Lucas was an inventor , Rian Johnson is standing on his shoulders making a mass market money grabber and he needs to be held to a much higher standard .
Irvinecommuter
New member
Liar Loan said:
Except Lucas already envisioned the prequels at the time he put out ANH...he picked that one to make because it had the most self-contained story. That is why ANH was called "Star Wars". Lucas never thought that he would get to make any other movies in the series.
Again...the concept that a select group of the people should control the world because they are extra especially is a fallacy. It's basically what the Catholic Church and Royalty preached maintaining power...it's what samurais/lords used in Imperial Japan...Chinese emperors anointed themselves sons of heaven as a justification to rule. Ultimately, it is a justification of power that is unfounded and ultimately destructive.
In reality, every person has the ability to become great. Physical abilities and strength are just two skill sets that were previously viewed as the most important are no longer the only traits that matter. The spreading out of the force is an awesome theme....and actually quite American. It is weird to me that people "freaking out" about SJW message...don't we want to have a message that everyone can reach a great heights if they believe in themselves and work hard rather than believing that only some people can reach greatness?
As for Motti...Empire are modeled after Nazi Germany. Vader would be analogous to the SS while Motti would be representative of the Wehrmacht, who had great disdain for the SS.
BTW...Anakin and Luke were just some random kids int he outer rim. Who is too say that Han was not force sensitive as well?
Irvinecommuter
New member
fortune11 said:
Lucas literally moved away from a darker ROTJ because he wanted to maximize merchandising potential. Most of the EU was pretty crappy and existed because Lucas wanted more revenue. Remember the Star Wars Christmas special? Not exactly top level story telling.
ANH is a terrible movie to watch...the themes and concepts are great but the movie itself is not good. People complain about the casino parts of TLJ but no one seemed to care about the whole Solo/Leia sidetrack into an asteroid worm section in ESB.
There are plenty of films that hold up from the 1970s and 1980s because they were good and well made movies. OS has been romanticized and fanfic'd way beyond what is actually on the screen. I have absolutely no problem with that...I love Star Wars too. I just don't proscribed the OS as ancient jedi scrolls to be preserved in a mythical tree.
Liar Loan
Well-known member
Irvinecommuter said:
Your point is as valid as any, but democratization of the Force does not make for good fantasy storytelling. The entire original trilogy is basically the story of how Luke became a Jedi. It started with meeting Obi-Wan and being told what a lightsaber is, and ended with not succumbing to the darkside in the Emperor's throne room. Along the way, he faced lots of challenges that showed his personal growth from whiny farm kid to somebody with mastery of his own emotions.
The prequels were an attempt to tell this story in reverse, showing Anakin growing from a kid wise beyond his years, to a whiny adult that couldn't control his emotions. The prequels could have been very good if they had focused more on Anakin's downfall instead of cramming in the extra nonsense that Lucas added to increase his merchandising empire. We got the mechanics of why it happened - so Padme wouldn't die - but we didn't get to witness any of the personal struggles that led to his downfall. Basically, he went from child prodigy in Episode I to horny teen that murders sand people in Episode II. It sure would have been nice to see where the training went wrong between the two movies.
So which character in the Disney trilogy is experiencing the personal story arc that anchors the plot for three movies? If everybody can become a Jedi with very little struggle then there is no personal growth or sacrifice occurring. It doesn't make for compelling movie making.
Irvinecommuter
New member
Liar Loan said:
Not sure why you think that Rey and Kylo are not having personal struggles. Rey is trying to find her place in the universe...she doesn't know where she is from or who her parents were. She has this great power but does not know what to do with it. Kylo is the super child that was raised in the perfect environment and held up to be the next great jedi. He struggled with internal demons and unmet expectations and two masters that failed him. Those struggles are far more personable and realistic than whatever Luke was going through. Luke's screaming when Vader revealed that he was Luke's dad always felt off to me...I guess the whole cave thing is the key where Luke feared that he was going to be Vader but since he never really met Vader before ESB...not sure why he would have that fear.
Anakin's struggles are evident because he fears loss...his mother and then Padme. He was also betrayed and let down by the jedi order, who were hypocrites and arrogant. Prequels were also more about complexity and greyness while OS were straightforward good vs evil. I actually like prequels more in some ways because I found the storytelling in OS so confining.
If you have time, I would recommend you watching the cinemawins for episode 2 and 3 and the CW series.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44H0MVjBDtM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KSbwAJT8RE