Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Warning: Possible Spoilers)

[fortune11]

Not saying Disney is making SW worse, but they are on the verge of hypersaturation. That's rarely a good thing for any kind of product.

Rogue 1 was a very good addition to the SW Canon IMHO. Vader needed better dialogue, but everything else was pretty dang worth me taking $10 out of my pocket at the theater to see it.

As for Frozen, it's a very young franchise. They need to hurry up on the sequel before their target audience ages out of the magic they saw in the first film, and it better be on or above par or interest will wane. We'll see. Any idea when F2 will be released?

My .02c

Disney is not alone in this (oversaturation) but they are the worst offenders. Also, I have practically tuned out of all these superhero movies now as there are way too many, way too many crossovers between different superhero universes and it all melds into a big CGI goop that my mind cant make sense of as it is being bombarded with too much happening on the screen all the time. 

Give me more movies like Interstellar , Inception, Arrival  , Prometheus (although Alien franchise) that stand on their own and have deep focus on script, concept and dialogue, slow camera work building to a sense of occasion, and very selective use of CGI . 

 

[fortune11]

I did not like it. I might have become a sarcastic ass as I get older but I had way too many WTF moments watching this movie. As a child, Darth Vader terrified me. They did a horrible job with Kylo Ren. Can you imagine Darth Vader ever losing a light saber battle to someone that has never even lifted one?

Also, they ruined Luke's legacy. They lost me at the green milk. NASTY!!!

+1 . Finally saw it too.  Ruining Luke's legacy did it for me - Luke Skywalker, a legend and one of the few all-time icons in pop culture in the entire world and this director makes him into a weasel and a coward ?  WTF is going on w this franchise. Looks like they look a long list of things to check off -- merchandizing, catering to all all overseas markets , covering all ethnic demos , etc.  and the product was this cluster f **  .  And this baby-faced Kylo Ren trope looks like  Darth Vader on the cheap. 

Disney is like the kiss of death for creativity.  The way they ruined Pixar is how they are destroying this hallowed franchise.  Well at-least we have the Empire Strikes Back to treasure forever (my favorite of all ) .

I don't understand this point of view.  Did you not see what happened to Yoda and Obi-Wan in the original series versus what they were like in the prequels?  Warriors becoming jaded and hermits at the end of their life is a tale as old as time.

Here is my problem - Luke Skywalker is not some supporting character  like Obi Wan or Jedi - he along w Han Solo and Leia , is the holy trinity of Stars Wars mythology .  He is an American Icon for chrissakes. And from what I learned from my International colleagues in grad school , he has done more to spread American values than any amount of foreign aid $$ .  That binary sunset scene on Tatooine  w Mark Hamill set against John Williams masterpiece music is etched into movie history forever as among the best motion picture clips of all time.

I have no problem w heroes turning into something they are initially not.  But if it is done w care and w a proper bridge .  The lightsaber that Luke lost during his epic battle w his father (the one and only Darth Vader) - when Rey presents him w it , he just tosses it back like that , and the audience is supposed to get cheap laughs from that ? Really ?  Han Solo's death has no poignancy for Luke ? 

Original Episodes 4-6 had their moments of levity and self deprecation primarily generated by Han Solo who was a proxy for the audience.  But this "TLJ " has no sense of occasion and history or legacy.  It is just about saying "whats the big deal anyways " and "screw all that " lets just do what we want - and then you get dumbest of dumb scenes like Princess Leia turning into Mary Poppins .  Atleast give Carrie Fisher a proper send off after her death in real life.  She could have drifted into space and that would have nicely closed a chapter , but no ...

And I am not just addicted to  episodes 4-6 , although they are the better ones.  I did like "Rogue One" because it was done properly , developed slowly and had a proper script with a proper , emotionally uplifting ending . 

This movie will be financially ok , I guess . Will make lost of $$ in overseas markets  and people will still see it because it is "Star Wars " after all . But for the next one , if it is the same director, I am saving my $$ for when it comes on dvd or for free on cable.

And what happen to Han?  He became a sentimental mush that got stabbed by his son.  I guess I never saw Luke as some savior of the democracy.  He had his own personal journey and redeemed his father. 

By the point of TLJ, Luke was completely fed up with the jedi and saw them as pure negatives.  The lightsaber scene was a representation of his disdain for the jedi order.  If you watch Rebels...Ahsoka showed the same disdain and vehemently objected to being called a jedi.

I would agree that some of the scenes were bad (i.e. Hux/Poe and the Leia scene) but most of the movie as well as the themes developed there in were great. 

The movie was written well before Fisher's death and the director specifically didn't want to "kill her off".

But there is still a method to the madness there - throughout this franchise , fathers / mentors have been unable to kill their sons / proteges - be it Obi Wan w Anakin , Vader w Luke, and Han Solo w Kylo Ren.  So it still makes sense

The franchise has its roots in good vs evil and belief in redemption (Vader turning).  If you are going to upend that value system , build the replacement slowly , provide a strong rationale, and make it robust enough to carry the franchise in a new direction. What I have seen here with this movie - the old system is gone , and I don't really know or understand if there is a new system yet or does anything make sense anymore.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

But there is still a method to the madness there - throughout this franchise , fathers / mentors have been unable to kill their sons / proteges - be it Obi Wan w Anakin , Vader w Luke, and Han Solo w Kylo Ren.  So it still makes sense

The franchise has its roots in good vs evil and belief in redemption (Vader turning).  If you are going to upend that value system , build the replacement slowly , provide a strong rationale, and make it robust enough to carry the franchise in a new direction. What I have seen here with this movie - the old system is gone , and I don't really know or understand if there is a new system yet or does anything make sense anymore.

And master failing their padawans (or vice versa), the masters becoming jaded, and the master finding redemption through another are also recurring themes. 

Yoda/Dooku...then Yoda/Luke
Kenobi/Anakin...then Kenobi/Luke
Anakin redeemed by Luke

Luke/Ben and redeemed by Rey.

Interesting, your confusion and frustration with the change is very similar to what Luke (and Anakin) went through.  They both thought they knew what it meant to be a jedi but only to be disorientated by what they experienced.  Anakin went to the DS because he saw that the jedis were hypocritical and self-righteous.  Luke became withdrawn and cynical because he believed that he failed everyone including Leia and never lived up to his purported "chosen one" tag. 

He didn't fall to the DS but went into essential depression.  He walled himself off from the force and basically became a hermit.  Not that different than what Yoda and Kenobi did. 

The value systems are still there.  Kenobi died in the first SW in a WTH moment too.  ESB left a lot of unanswered questions and that were only answered with ROTJ and the prequels.  I think people are frustrated because TLJ does not follow the narrative they would like for the series to go but Luke being jaded and cynical only to be redeemed by Rey and his love for Leia seem like a very good arc to me.

 

[jmoney74]

Think the big issue here is that the executives didn't have an overall plan for the trilogy. They let Rian pretty much develop his own story. This isn't like how they set up marvel.  So now you can just make up stuff as you go. Rian said there was no plan for him to follow. It wasn't a bad movie at all but I know most fans aren't as excited as before. Oh well. It will continue to make billions so that's that.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Think the big issue here is that the executives didn't have an overall plan for the trilogy. They let Rian pretty much develop his own story. This isn't like how they set up marvel.  So now you can just make up stuff as you go. Rian said there was no plan for him to follow. It wasn't a bad movie at all but I know most fans aren't as excited as before. Oh well. It will continue to make billions so that's that.

But Rian basically let whoever is doing episode 9 (Abrams) to finish the series however that person wants.  He left everything open and plausible.

Is Luke dead?  Is he coming back?

Is Snoke dead?  Is he coming back?

Where does the resistance go from here?  Where does the FO go? 

What does a fully matured Kylo look like.

 

[jmoney74]

Think the big issue here is that the executives didn't have an overall plan for the trilogy. They let Rian pretty much develop his own story. This isn't like how they set up marvel.  So now you can just make up stuff as you go. Rian said there was no plan for him to follow. It wasn't a bad movie at all but I know most fans aren't as excited as before. Oh well. It will continue to make billions so that's that.

But Rian basically let whoever is doing episode 9 (Abrams) to finish the series however that person wants.  He left everything open and plausible.

Not exactly. He changed the rules. Being a Jedi is up for grabs. You want to be a Jedi?  It can be anyone. Broom boy?
Sure why not?  It was nice of Disney to add that as a reshoot. When you wish upon a star.  Also kylo Ren is not a very good villian. Got his butt kicked by someone with no training. 
 

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Think the big issue here is that the executives didn't have an overall plan for the trilogy. They let Rian pretty much develop his own story. This isn't like how they set up marvel.  So now you can just make up stuff as you go. Rian said there was no plan for him to follow. It wasn't a bad movie at all but I know most fans aren't as excited as before. Oh well. It will continue to make billions so that's that.

But Rian basically let whoever is doing episode 9 (Abrams) to finish the series however that person wants.  He left everything open and plausible.

Not exactly. He changed the rules. Being a Jedi is up for grabs. You want to be a Jedi?  It can be anyone. Broom boy?
Sure why not?  It was nice of Disney to add that as a reshoot. When you wish upon a star.  Also kylo Ren is not a very good villian. Got his butt kicked by someone with no training. 

No...being an user of the force is up for grabs.  The duopoly of force control by Sith and Jedi wrecked the universe time and time again. BTW..the use of force by non-jedi is evident in R1.  It is a theme that I really like. 

Again..Kylo didn't get proper training but don't forget that he was also severely wounded at the time.  He was pretty cool in the scene with Rey against the guards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD3UcjC9N5I

 

[fortune11]

Think the big issue here is that the executives didn't have an overall plan for the trilogy. They let Rian pretty much develop his own story. This isn't like how they set up marvel.  So now you can just make up stuff as you go. Rian said there was no plan for him to follow. It wasn't a bad movie at all but I know most fans aren't as excited as before. Oh well. It will continue to make billions so that's that.

But Rian basically let whoever is doing episode 9 (Abrams) to finish the series however that person wants.  He left everything open and plausible.

Not exactly. He changed the rules. Being a Jedi is up for grabs. You want to be a Jedi?  It can be anyone. Broom boy?
Sure why not?  It was nice of Disney to add that as a reshoot. When you wish upon a star.  Also kylo Ren is not a very good villian. Got his butt kicked by someone with no training. 

No...being an user of the force is up for grabs.  The duopoly of force control by Sith and Jedi wrecked the universe time and time again. BTW..the use of force by non-jedi is evident in R1.  It is a theme that I really like. 

Again..Kylo didn't get proper training but don't forget that he was also severely wounded at the time.  He was pretty cool in the scene with Rey against the guards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD3UcjC9N5I

I have to agree w jmoney here .  Used to be that you had to have this chloro-midian (sp?) or whatever it is in you at a certain level to be a good candidate for Jedi training .  now it is anyone and everyone which is fine by me , but even so you need to have put in some serious hours of training seeing how long it took anakin and then his son Luke to get to that level

But Rey ? she just got it like that in a snap without paying her dues.  and the broom boy will also get a magical wand waved over him and will be able to take on Kylo Ren, LOL. 

I know we are in a make believe fantasy world but this still has some rules.  when you break those rules , it is like "why am I watching this anymore" or "why do I even care about this nonsense anymore" type of questions start to come into play. 

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Think the big issue here is that the executives didn't have an overall plan for the trilogy. They let Rian pretty much develop his own story. This isn't like how they set up marvel.  So now you can just make up stuff as you go. Rian said there was no plan for him to follow. It wasn't a bad movie at all but I know most fans aren't as excited as before. Oh well. It will continue to make billions so that's that.

But Rian basically let whoever is doing episode 9 (Abrams) to finish the series however that person wants.  He left everything open and plausible.

Not exactly. He changed the rules. Being a Jedi is up for grabs. You want to be a Jedi?  It can be anyone. Broom boy?
Sure why not?  It was nice of Disney to add that as a reshoot. When you wish upon a star.  Also kylo Ren is not a very good villian. Got his butt kicked by someone with no training. 

No...being an user of the force is up for grabs.  The duopoly of force control by Sith and Jedi wrecked the universe time and time again. BTW..the use of force by non-jedi is evident in R1.  It is a theme that I really like. 

Again..Kylo didn't get proper training but don't forget that he was also severely wounded at the time.  He was pretty cool in the scene with Rey against the guards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD3UcjC9N5I

I have to agree w jmoney here .  Used to be that you had to have this chloro-midian (sp?) or whatever it is in you at a certain level to be a good candidate for Jedi training .  now it is anyone and everyone which is fine by me , but even so you need to have put in some serious hours of training seeing how long it took anakin and then his son Luke to get to that level

But Rey ? she just got it like that in a snap without paying her dues.  and the broom boy will also get a magical wand waved over him and will be able to take on Kylo Ren, LOL. 

I know we are in a make believe fantasy world but this still has some rules.  when you break those rules , it is like "why am I watching this anymore" or "why do I even care about this nonsense anymore" type of questions start to come into play.

I think of being force-sensitive like genetics.  A lot of great athletes did not come from great athletes while others did.  Michael Jordan's dad was an airplane mechanic while Steph Curry' father was a NBA player.  Thus it would make sense that there are force-sensitive individuals all over the galaxies but not found.  In fact, jedis padawans were previously selected from all over the galaxy and then trained. 

Luke trained with Yoda for like 2 weeks and was able to hold his own against Vader and then defeated him in the ROTJ with not much more training.  Rey already knew how to fight growing up...make much more sense than whiny Luke Skywalker from Tatooine becomes a jedi warrior.  We also have no idea how long Rey was training with Luke.

Again...at the time that Rey was battling Kylo (TFA) Kylo was severely wounded...he was shot directly by a bowcaster and hurt by Finn. 

I am not defending the entirety of the film or that there are not plot holes but there are huge plot holes in the OS that people just accept but then go out of their way to nitpick in TLJ. 

 

[jmoney74]

Think the big issue here is that the executives didn't have an overall plan for the trilogy. They let Rian pretty much develop his own story. This isn't like how they set up marvel.  So now you can just make up stuff as you go. Rian said there was no plan for him to follow. It wasn't a bad movie at all but I know most fans aren't as excited as before. Oh well. It will continue to make billions so that's that.

But Rian basically let whoever is doing episode 9 (Abrams) to finish the series however that person wants.  He left everything open and plausible.

Not exactly. He changed the rules. Being a Jedi is up for grabs. You want to be a Jedi?  It can be anyone. Broom boy?
Sure why not?  It was nice of Disney to add that as a reshoot. When you wish upon a star.  Also kylo Ren is not a very good villian. Got his butt kicked by someone with no training. 

No...being an user of the force is up for grabs.  The duopoly of force control by Sith and Jedi wrecked the universe time and time again. BTW..the use of force by non-jedi is evident in R1.  It is a theme that I really like. 

Again..Kylo didn't get proper training but don't forget that he was also severely wounded at the time.  He was pretty cool in the scene with Rey against the guards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD3UcjC9N5I

I have to agree w jmoney here .  Used to be that you had to have this chloro-midian (sp?) or whatever it is in you at a certain level to be a good candidate for Jedi training .  now it is anyone and everyone which is fine by me , but even so you need to have put in some serious hours of training seeing how long it took anakin and then his son Luke to get to that level

But Rey ? she just got it like that in a snap without paying her dues.  and the broom boy will also get a magical wand waved over him and will be able to take on Kylo Ren, LOL. 

I know we are in a make believe fantasy world but this still has some rules.  when you break those rules , it is like "why am I watching this anymore" or "why do I even care about this nonsense anymore" type of questions start to come into play.

IC, I can understand why you and so many others like the movie.  It isnt' bad.  Heck, if it were not a SW movie I wouldn't have hated on it so much.  When I watch movie sagas.. I generally like how they all kind of plug into one another.  This one stood alone by itself and I just don't care for it. 

Also, I get it that Kylo was injured but with all that training from Luke and Snoke... you'd think he'd be better than that.  Nope.  I'm with Fortune on this.. why do I even bother watching this anymore. First time I ever checked my watch during a SW movie.  I was hoping they would leave more to be desired for the next one. 

 

[jmoney74]

Think the big issue here is that the executives didn't have an overall plan for the trilogy. They let Rian pretty much develop his own story. This isn't like how they set up marvel.  So now you can just make up stuff as you go. Rian said there was no plan for him to follow. It wasn't a bad movie at all but I know most fans aren't as excited as before. Oh well. It will continue to make billions so that's that.

But Rian basically let whoever is doing episode 9 (Abrams) to finish the series however that person wants.  He left everything open and plausible.

Not exactly. He changed the rules. Being a Jedi is up for grabs. You want to be a Jedi?  It can be anyone. Broom boy?
Sure why not?  It was nice of Disney to add that as a reshoot. When you wish upon a star.  Also kylo Ren is not a very good villian. Got his butt kicked by someone with no training. 

No...being an user of the force is up for grabs.  The duopoly of force control by Sith and Jedi wrecked the universe time and time again. BTW..the use of force by non-jedi is evident in R1.  It is a theme that I really like. 

Again..Kylo didn't get proper training but don't forget that he was also severely wounded at the time.  He was pretty cool in the scene with Rey against the guards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD3UcjC9N5I

I have to agree w jmoney here .  Used to be that you had to have this chloro-midian (sp?) or whatever it is in you at a certain level to be a good candidate for Jedi training .  now it is anyone and everyone which is fine by me , but even so you need to have put in some serious hours of training seeing how long it took anakin and then his son Luke to get to that level

But Rey ? she just got it like that in a snap without paying her dues.  and the broom boy will also get a magical wand waved over him and will be able to take on Kylo Ren, LOL. 

I know we are in a make believe fantasy world but this still has some rules.  when you break those rules , it is like "why am I watching this anymore" or "why do I even care about this nonsense anymore" type of questions start to come into play.

Hmmm...Luke trained with Yoda for like 2 weeks and was able to hold his own against Vader and then defeated him in the ROTJ with not much more training. 

Rey already knew how to fight growing up...make much more sense than whiny Luke Skywalker from Tatooine becomes a jedi warrior.

A lot of great athletes did not come from great athletes while others did.  Michael Jordan's dad was an airplane mechanic while Steph Curry' father was a NBA player.

NBA analogy to a fantasy movie?  I think this thread needs to end.  lol

 

[Irvinecommuter]

NBA analogy to a fantasy movie?  I think this thread needs to end.  lol

How is being force-sensitive that different than being genetically talented at sports? 

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Also, I get it that Kylo was injured but with all that training from Luke and Snoke... you'd think he'd be better than that.  Nope.  I'm with Fortune on this.. why do I even bother watching this anymore. First time I ever checked my watch during a SW movie.  I was hoping they would leave more to be desired for the next one.

Have you considered that Kylo wasn't trying to kill Rey? 

Again...why did you accept that Luke could become this ultimate jedi with like two weeks of training with Yoda?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikka...ning-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi/#7bd20ff7669d

If you weren't bothered that Luke was able to blow up the Death Star and had better aim than any highly trained Storm Trooper you can't be bothered that Rey was also able to do things better than an average human being. Her exceptional competency is a good thing, ultimately, because it makes her different from Luke. Luke went on a very typical Hero's Journey, from farm boy to galaxy-saving hero in the course of three films. (More on this and where it leads him in The Last Jedi later.) But Rey didn't start out a farm girl, she started out as a tough-as-nails survivor. And her journey won't be the same one as Luke's. Nor should it be.

 

[jmoney74]

Also, I get it that Kylo was injured but with all that training from Luke and Snoke... you'd think he'd be better than that.  Nope.  I'm with Fortune on this.. why do I even bother watching this anymore. First time I ever checked my watch during a SW movie.  I was hoping they would leave more to be desired for the next one.

Have you considered that Kylo wasn't trying to kill Rey? 

Again...why did you accept that Luke could become this ultimate jedi with like two weeks of training with Yoda?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikka...ning-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi/#7bd20ff7669d

If you weren't bothered that Luke was able to blow up the Death Star and had better aim than any highly trained Storm Trooper you can't be bothered that Rey was also able to do things better than an average human being. Her exceptional competency is a good thing, ultimately, because it makes her different from Luke. Luke went on a very typical Hero's Journey, from farm boy to galaxy-saving hero in the course of three films. (More on this and where it leads him in The Last Jedi later.) But Rey didn't start out a farm girl, she started out as a tough-as-nails survivor. And her journey won't be the same one as Luke's. Nor should it be.

He wasn't ultimate Jedi. He first got kicked in to be carbon freezed (hopped out). Then got hit with a bunch of stuff Vader easily threw at him which he had no chance of stopping with his limited force powers. Then his hand got cut off. Didn't exactly own Vader.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Also, I get it that Kylo was injured but with all that training from Luke and Snoke... you'd think he'd be better than that.  Nope.  I'm with Fortune on this.. why do I even bother watching this anymore. First time I ever checked my watch during a SW movie.  I was hoping they would leave more to be desired for the next one.

Have you considered that Kylo wasn't trying to kill Rey? 

Again...why did you accept that Luke could become this ultimate jedi with like two weeks of training with Yoda?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikka...ning-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi/#7bd20ff7669d

If you weren't bothered that Luke was able to blow up the Death Star and had better aim than any highly trained Storm Trooper you can't be bothered that Rey was also able to do things better than an average human being. Her exceptional competency is a good thing, ultimately, because it makes her different from Luke. Luke went on a very typical Hero's Journey, from farm boy to galaxy-saving hero in the course of three films. (More on this and where it leads him in The Last Jedi later.) But Rey didn't start out a farm girl, she started out as a tough-as-nails survivor. And her journey won't be the same one as Luke's. Nor should it be.

He wasn't ultimate Jedi. He first got kicked in to be carbon freezed (hopped out). Then got hit with a bunch of stuff Vader easily threw at him which he had no chance of stopping with his limited force powers. Then his hand got cut off. Didn't exactly own Vader.

And Rey didn't exactly own Kylo, who was seriously wounded at the time and had just killed his father.  Not to mention, again, not trying to kill her.

 

[jmoney74]

Also, I get it that Kylo was injured but with all that training from Luke and Snoke... you'd think he'd be better than that.  Nope.  I'm with Fortune on this.. why do I even bother watching this anymore. First time I ever checked my watch during a SW movie.  I was hoping they would leave more to be desired for the next one.

Have you considered that Kylo wasn't trying to kill Rey? 

Again...why did you accept that Luke could become this ultimate jedi with like two weeks of training with Yoda?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikka...ning-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi/#7bd20ff7669d

If you weren't bothered that Luke was able to blow up the Death Star and had better aim than any highly trained Storm Trooper you can't be bothered that Rey was also able to do things better than an average human being. Her exceptional competency is a good thing, ultimately, because it makes her different from Luke. Luke went on a very typical Hero's Journey, from farm boy to galaxy-saving hero in the course of three films. (More on this and where it leads him in The Last Jedi later.) But Rey didn't start out a farm girl, she started out as a tough-as-nails survivor. And her journey won't be the same one as Luke's. Nor should it be.

He wasn't ultimate Jedi. He first got kicked in to be carbon freezed (hopped out). Then got hit with a bunch of stuff Vader easily threw at him which he had no chance of stopping with his limited force powers. Then his hand got cut off. Didn't exactly own Vader.

And Rey didn't exactly own Kylo, who was seriously wounded at the time and had just killed his father.  Not to mention, again, not trying to kill her.

Well she left a pretty nasty scar on his face and knocked him out.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Also, I get it that Kylo was injured but with all that training from Luke and Snoke... you'd think he'd be better than that.  Nope.  I'm with Fortune on this.. why do I even bother watching this anymore. First time I ever checked my watch during a SW movie.  I was hoping they would leave more to be desired for the next one.

Have you considered that Kylo wasn't trying to kill Rey? 

Again...why did you accept that Luke could become this ultimate jedi with like two weeks of training with Yoda?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikka...ning-in-star-wars-the-last-jedi/#7bd20ff7669d

If you weren't bothered that Luke was able to blow up the Death Star and had better aim than any highly trained Storm Trooper you can't be bothered that Rey was also able to do things better than an average human being. Her exceptional competency is a good thing, ultimately, because it makes her different from Luke. Luke went on a very typical Hero's Journey, from farm boy to galaxy-saving hero in the course of three films. (More on this and where it leads him in The Last Jedi later.) But Rey didn't start out a farm girl, she started out as a tough-as-nails survivor. And her journey won't be the same one as Luke's. Nor should it be.

He wasn't ultimate Jedi. He first got kicked in to be carbon freezed (hopped out). Then got hit with a bunch of stuff Vader easily threw at him which he had no chance of stopping with his limited force powers. Then his hand got cut off. Didn't exactly own Vader.

And Rey didn't exactly own Kylo, who was seriously wounded at the time and had just killed his father.  Not to mention, again, not trying to kill her.

Well she left a pretty nasty scar on his face and knocked him out.

Yes but again..shot by a bowcaster so losing blood and energy.  Kylo was also not a master on the level of Vader.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE8-YaoKa-o

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Even Vader stated that Luke's lightsaber fighting was impressive.  He force pushed Vader over and I would argue held Vader to standstill dueling wise and Vader wasn't shot by a bowcaster.  Vader resorted to force launching some objects against Luke and the vacuum took out Luke more than anything else.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgyitSlMtMY

I don't see how this fight in Empire was all that different than the fight between Kylo and Rey.

But again, we are nitpicking.  Rey is a Mary Sue but Luke is just a quick learner.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

NBA analogy to a fantasy movie?  I think this thread needs to end.  lol

How is being force-sensitive that different than being genetically talented at sports?

Because we have no concrete definition of ?force-sensitivity?  and that can be changed at the whim of the writer/director.

Anakin was born via immaculate midichlorians... maybe that?s how Michael Jordan was born.

 

[fortune11]

NBA analogy to a fantasy movie?  I think this thread needs to end.  lol

How is being force-sensitive that different than being genetically talented at sports?

Because we have no concrete definition of ?force-sensitivity?  and that can be changed at the whim of the writer/director.

Anakin was born via immaculate midichlorians... maybe that?s how Michael Jordan was born.

I am waiting for the day a jaded Michael Jordan will casually chuck his NBA rings over his shoulders into a trash heap