United States vs. ?

Liar Loan said:
I'm curious, Irvinecommuter, what makes the Korean peninsula so complicated?  It seems really simple to me when you seek to understand everybody's motivations.

It's not at all.  Like the Middle East...Korea is a proxy war between Russia/China and US.  US set up a buffer wall against China with SK, Japan, and Taiwan.  Vietnam War was fought because the US feared that China was having influence over SE Asia and thus could break "containment". 

So, whenever there are issues with NK/SK...you have the interests of China, Russia, NK, SK, US, and Japan all at play.  There are allies but they each have slightly different interests.    China and Russia are using NK as a buffer to SK and the US and to pose as a threat to SK and Japan...NK is basically China's enforcer.  China and Russia are the only reason why the Kims have been in power.  US is there to protect the interests of SK and Japan...Japan doesn't really care about SK but does care about China.  SK is caught in the middle (as it always has in the history of Japan/China). It is an economic powerhouse now but it still plays 2nd fiddle to Japan and US.  NK is wholly supported by China and Russia....there is no way that China or Russia would ever allow an unification of Korea that is friendly to the US.  Kim has absolutely no incentives to actually do anything substantive.    You really think that Kim Jr. is scared of Trump?  Dude thinks that he is a god.

All the Trump supporters think that this is all new ground when in fact...it's all old ground.  Kim's dad did this multiple times. 
https://twitter.com/QiZHAI/status/989795774975242241
 
Happiness said:
When Trump was harsh towards NK, the Liberals said Trump the warmonger will start a war in Korea and millions will die.

Now that Trump will meet KJU, the Liberals say Trump is a retard and is being played by NK.

DAMN, THERE'S JUST NO PLEASING THE LIBERALS.

Seriously...it has nothing to do with politics.  That's the problem...Trump supporters keep looking at it from a political POV.  Go read the article. 
 
Just one example of the fundamental misunderstanding of Asian politics.

SEOUL ? The White House is gearing up for President Trump to discuss denuclearization with North Korean leader Kim Jong Un at their much anticipated summit next month. But what does ?denuclearization? mean?

It depends on whom you are asking. To some in Washington, ?the denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula,? as Trump tweeted late last month, means Kim handing over his nuclear weapons and missile systems and allowing international inspectors to check that the regime is keeping its word.

To Pyongyang, it means something very, very different. It means mutual steps to get rid of nuclear weapons, including requiring the United States to take down the nuclear umbrella it has put up over South Korea and Japan.

That is a difference in definition that could toll a death knell for the summit before it even starts.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...6c9e9b37800_story.html?utm_term=.dd252a881da0

NK is on the cusp of being a nuclear power..you think that it did all that just to stop now and play nice?  Seriously...
 
lnc said:
North and South Korea are going to unite?

North and South Korea sign agreement to end Korean War

North and South Korea signed an agreement Friday saying they would end the Korean War, a discussion that occurred during historic denuclearization talks on the peninsula.

South Korean President Moon Jae-in and North Korea?s Supreme Leader Kim Jong-un met at the demilitarized zone ? known as the DMZ ? to sign the Panmujom Declaration for Peace, Prosperity and Unification on the Korean Peninsula, more than 60 years after fighting had ended, CNN reported.

Following the signing, the two men shook hands and embraced. Mr. Kim even said the two Koreas will be ?reunited as one country? in a speech after the meeting. Mr. Moon also plans to travel to Pyongyang this year.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/apr/27/north-and-south-korea-sign-agreement-to-end-korean/
 
Irvinecommuter said:
NK is wholly supported by China and Russia....there is no way that China or Russia would ever allow an unification of Korea that is friendly to the US.  Kim has absolutely no incentives to actually do anything substantive.    You really think that Kim Jr. is scared of Trump?  Dude thinks that he is a god.

Is it in China's or Russia's best interest to have a nuke in NK?  At what point does this become a liability?

I think the economic warfare that Trump has waged on both China and Russia is having the right effect.
 
Liar Loan said:
Irvinecommuter said:
NK is wholly supported by China and Russia....there is no way that China or Russia would ever allow an unification of Korea that is friendly to the US.  Kim has absolutely no incentives to actually do anything substantive.    You really think that Kim Jr. is scared of Trump?  Dude thinks that he is a god.

Is it in China's or Russia's best interest to have a nuke in NK?  At what point does this become a liability?

I think the economic warfare that Trump has waged on both China and Russia is having the right effect.

Again...you assume that China doesn't have control over NK's nuke program.  This is the problem with Trump supporters...they think the world is still in the 1950s and the US is still the "biggest" and "baddest" country in the world and that everyone else is stupid and bumbling.  Again...multi-level chess versus checkers.

Economic warfare?  Seriously?  Stop drinking the koolaid?  Again...in China, government runs businesses.  In the US, the businesses run the government.  Who do you think will win an "economic" war?  Trump pulling the US out the TPP and isolating US from the rest of the world are just two of the stupider things he has done.
 
morekaos said:
I can tell you I visited East Germany many times in the 80's.  Loads of pix at Checkpoint Charlie before going in.  At the time it too seemed impossible.  Reagan was thought of as a total lunatic warmonger here and in Europe..same as Trump and the same results.  Winning peace through strength.

Germany came as a precusor to the collapse of the Soviet bloc...so unless China and Russia are on the cusp of collapse, the historical parallels are misplaced.
 
Happiness said:
When Trump was harsh towards NK, the Liberals said Trump the warmonger will start a war in Korea and millions will die.

Now that Trump will meet KJU, the Liberals say Trump is a retard and is being played by NK.

DAMN, THERE'S JUST NO PLEASING THE LIBERALS.


I am neutral here - wait for facts and results before jumping up and down

But will say this -- thanks to Trump, conservatives now hate Football and FBI while they love rap music and talking to North Korea. 

Now, THAT's a major achievement :)
 
fortune11 said:
Happiness said:
When Trump was harsh towards NK, the Liberals said Trump the warmonger will start a war in Korea and millions will die.

Now that Trump will meet KJU, the Liberals say Trump is a retard and is being played by NK.

DAMN, THERE'S JUST NO PLEASING THE LIBERALS.


I am neutral here - wait for facts and results before jumping up and down

But will say this -- thanks to Trump, conservatives now hate Football and FBI while they love rap music and talking to North Korea. 

Now, THAT's a major achievement :)

Up is down...down is up.  Winning is losing...losing is winning.

Edit:  I would add that my comments should not be interpreted to meant that I do not want a peaceful Korean Peninsula...it's just not realistic to think that one is coming down the pipeline, especially with China and Russia seeking to unseat the US and Europe as the dominant global forces. 

It's not that different than Taiwan...under no circumstance would China ever let Taiwan be independent.  It's too useful as a political rally cry for the CCP and way too harmful to the CCP if Taiwan ever became independent.  US has no incentive to let Taiwan be independent but has a lot of incentive for it not to be in Chinese hands. 

Honestly...the only hope is that the CCP is toppled and a new China develops.  Otherwise, the CCP is what is calling the shots.
 
Irvinecommuter said:
fortune11 said:
Happiness said:
When Trump was harsh towards NK, the Liberals said Trump the warmonger will start a war in Korea and millions will die.

Now that Trump will meet KJU, the Liberals say Trump is a retard and is being played by NK.

DAMN, THERE'S JUST NO PLEASING THE LIBERALS.


I am neutral here - wait for facts and results before jumping up and down

But will say this -- thanks to Trump, conservatives now hate Football and FBI while they love rap music and talking to North Korea. 

Now, THAT's a major achievement :)

Up is down...down is up.  Winning is losing...losing is winning.

lemme tell you why peace on the korean peninsula is actually a bad thing!
 
Hard data over emotions ...

people are so desperate for just any "win" that they will gloss over the basics of any negotiation

The West Should Beware of the Korean Peace Trap -- Trump should know that empty promises are a favorite tactic of the North Korean regime.

By Eli Lake
(Bloomberg View) -- On the surface it looks like the doubters were wrong.
North Korea's leader, Kim Jong Un, traveled into South Korea on Friday to meet his counterpart. They agreed in principle at least to formally end the war that has divided the peninsula they share. Kim even agreed to a joint statement calling for the denuclearization of the peninsula. What's not to like?
Plenty. To understand why, examine the "Panmunjom Declaration for Peace, Prosperity and Unification of the Korean Peninsula" issued by Kim and President Moon Jae-in Friday after their meeting.
Let's start with the issue most important to America and North Korea's neighbors, the nuclear file. The joint communique says, "South and North Korea confirmed the common goal of realizing, through complete denuclearization, a nuclear-free Korean Peninsula." It also says the two states "shared the view that the measures being initiated by North Korea are very meaningful and crucial for the denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula and agreed to carry out their respective roles and responsibilities in this regard." Finally it pledged that both would seek help and cooperation from the international community to achieve the goal of denuclearization.
That sounds pretty good, but it isn't. North Koreans have historically used the phrase "denuclearization" to mean the U.S. should no longer extend its nuclear umbrella to protect South Korea. As former senior State Department officialEvans Revere explained in a recent policy brief for the Brookings Institution, North Korean interlocutors have explained the concept in talks to U.S. officials and experts as "the elimination of the 'threat' posed by the U.S.-South Korea alliance, by U.S. troops on the Korean Peninsula, and by the U.S. nuclear umbrella that defends South Korea and Japan."
Revere goes on to say that in return for those steps that would undermine the U.S.-South Korean alliance, North Koreans have offered to "'consider denuclearization in 10-20 years' time if Pyongyang feels 'secure.'" Maybe they mean something different this time around. But it's a red flag that Kim is agreeing to the same phrase that in past discussions has meant something very different than verifiable disarmament.
Then there is the strange language about how Kim's recent announcement to pause missile tests is considered by both leaders "very meaningful and crucial for the denuclearization of the Korean peninsula."  It isn't.
As Kim himself said in his New Year's Day address, he no longer sees a need to test its intercontinental ballistic missiles: "We attained our general orientation and strategic goal with success, and our Republic has at last come to possess a powerful and reliable war deterrent, which no force and nothing can reverse." The real test of Kim's commitment for denuclearization will be measured in the level of transparency he provides to weapons inspectors and whether he will take steps to dismantle his nuclear infrastructure.
The problems with the communique though go beyond what both sides mean by "denuclearization." There is also a sickening parity in the statement that equates a vibrant democratic republic with a totalitarian slave state. The two leaders agreed to a joint event on June 15 "in which participants from all levels, including central and local governments, parliaments, political parties, and civil organizations, will be involved." There is only one political party in North Korea and no civil organizations. It's dangerous to pretend otherwise.
Along those lines it's particularly troubling that South Korea appears to agree to stop allowing its citizens to send leaflets over the border to break North Korea's information monopoly over its citizens. The communique says, "The two sides agreed to transform the demilitarized zone into a peace zone in a genuine sense by ceasing as of May 1 this year all hostile acts and eliminating their means, including broadcasting through loudspeakers and distribution of leaflets, in the areas along the Military Demarcation Line."
This is hugely detrimental to the North Korean people. In the last decade more and more Koreans with the help of defectors have sent drones containingportable video players with memory sticks full of Korean soap operas and other ?dangerous? cultural items into the north in the hopes of breaking the Kim regime's information grip over his population. Nicholas Eberstadt, an economist at the American Enterprise Institute, told me this provision "means North Korea's thought control now extends to the south."
Finally, President Donald Trump in particular should worry about what the communique between the two Koreas means for his own strategy of maximum pressure on Pyongyang unless and until the regime makes tangible concessions on the nuclear file. It references a 2007 communique between the two Koreas that pledged "economic growth and co-prosperity." It calls for connecting roads and railways between the two Koreas. In and of itself, that's unobjectionable. However it could be an economic lifeline that eases pressure before nuclear concessions are made.
For these reasons, Trump should be careful about next steps. He needs to make sure South Korea will not seek a separate peace with its rival. He also needs to get a better sense of the real steps Kim will take to disarm. Until then, Trump should slow the diplomacy down and wait. Kim has shown he is adept at getting optimistic headlines. That is a testament to his connivance, not his intentions.
 
Kings said:
Irvinecommuter said:
fortune11 said:
Happiness said:
When Trump was harsh towards NK, the Liberals said Trump the warmonger will start a war in Korea and millions will die.

Now that Trump will meet KJU, the Liberals say Trump is a retard and is being played by NK.

DAMN, THERE'S JUST NO PLEASING THE LIBERALS.


I am neutral here - wait for facts and results before jumping up and down

But will say this -- thanks to Trump, conservatives now hate Football and FBI while they love rap music and talking to North Korea. 

Now, THAT's a major achievement :)

Up is down...down is up.  Winning is losing...losing is winning.

lemme tell you why peace on the korean peninsula is actually a bad thing!

No...I just live in reality.  Not this made up fantasy world based upon what one thought the 1950s were.
 
fortune11 said:
Hard data over emotions ...

people are so desperate for just any "win" that they will gloss over the basics of any negotiation

Yup...you don't beat your opponent by berating them...you trick them into thinking that they are winning.

China has learned this the last 30 years..it claims that HK will be independent and free when in fact it is slowly turning HK into China.  It has used its economic power to buy control in developing countries and exert influence over Asia. 

Neither China nor Russia (as they are currently led) want to be partners with the US or Europe...they want to be on top.  They are just a lot smarter with their rhetoric and actions. 

?If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.?  -Sun Tzu

Edit:  I would add that as the article quoted by Fortune noted...NK doesn't need nuclear weapons...it just needs to be able to credibly argue that it could be a nuclear power.  NK was never under any threat of being attacked by SK or the US...China and Russia would never let it happen.
 
Happiness said:
DAMN, THERE'S JUST NO PLEASING THE LIBERALS.

Sure there is.  Just agree with everything they say.  Otherwise, you're:

STUPID
RACIST
SEXIST
HOMOPHOBIC
ANTI-SCIENCE
IGNORANT
BIGOTED
and
STUPID.  REALLY STUPID.
 
StarmanMBA said:
Happiness said:
DAMN, THERE'S JUST NO PLEASING THE LIBERALS.

Sure there is.  Just agree with everything they say.  Otherwise, you're:

STUPID
RACIST
SEXIST
HOMOPHOBIC
ANTI-SCIENCE
IGNORANT
BIGOTED
and
STUPID.  REALLY STUPID.

Well...I am glad that you interjected such logical and factually based points into our discussion.  I think we are all better people for having read that post.
 
Irvinecommuter said:
Liar Loan said:
Irvinecommuter said:
NK is wholly supported by China and Russia....there is no way that China or Russia would ever allow an unification of Korea that is friendly to the US.  Kim has absolutely no incentives to actually do anything substantive.    You really think that Kim Jr. is scared of Trump?  Dude thinks that he is a god.

Is it in China's or Russia's best interest to have a nuke in NK?  At what point does this become a liability?

I think the economic warfare that Trump has waged on both China and Russia is having the right effect.

Again...you assume that China doesn't have control over NK's nuke program.  This is the problem with Trump supporters...they think the world is still in the 1950s and the US is still the "biggest" and "baddest" country in the world and that everyone else is stupid and bumbling.  Again...multi-level chess versus checkers.

Economic warfare?  Seriously?  Stop drinking the koolaid?  Again...in China, government runs businesses.  In the US, the businesses run the government.  Who do you think will win an "economic" war?  Trump pulling the US out the TPP and isolating US from the rest of the world are just two of the stupider things he has done.

If I was assuming China didn't have control over NK's nuke program, why would I have talked about economic warfare with China?  For being old enough to remember the 1950's, you aren't very wise.  The US is still the biggest country by GDP and the baddest by military prowess.  China just finally launched their first aircraft carrier after having to buy decommissioned USSR carriers.  Welcome to the 20th century!  LOL..

The US is already winning the economic war.  Everything China has has been given to it or stolen.  There is no innovation or creativity.  Government run businesses guarantee that won't be changing any time soon.  All they can do is try to copy the US while covering up for their weakness through state run media.
 
Liar Loan said:
Irvinecommuter said:
Liar Loan said:
Irvinecommuter said:
NK is wholly supported by China and Russia....there is no way that China or Russia would ever allow an unification of Korea that is friendly to the US.  Kim has absolutely no incentives to actually do anything substantive.    You really think that Kim Jr. is scared of Trump?  Dude thinks that he is a god.

Is it in China's or Russia's best interest to have a nuke in NK?  At what point does this become a liability?

I think the economic warfare that Trump has waged on both China and Russia is having the right effect.

Again...you assume that China doesn't have control over NK's nuke program.  This is the problem with Trump supporters...they think the world is still in the 1950s and the US is still the "biggest" and "baddest" country in the world and that everyone else is stupid and bumbling.  Again...multi-level chess versus checkers.

Economic warfare?  Seriously?  Stop drinking the koolaid?  Again...in China, government runs businesses.  In the US, the businesses run the government.  Who do you think will win an "economic" war?  Trump pulling the US out the TPP and isolating US from the rest of the world are just two of the stupider things he has done.

If I was assuming China didn't have control over NK's nuke program, why would I have talked about economic warfare with China?  For being old enough to remember the 1950's, you aren't very wise.  The US is still the biggest country by GDP and the baddest by military prowess.  China just finally launched their first aircraft carrier after having to buy decommissioned USSR carriers.  Welcome to the 20th century!  LOL..

The US is already winning the economic war.  Everything China has has been given to it or stolen.  There is no innovation or creativity.  Government run businesses guarantee that won't be changing any time soon.  All they can do is try to copy the US while covering up for their weakness through state run media.

LOL...I will in return welcome you into the 21st century..where carriers are military relics, projecting strength means using economic influence, and wars are fought electronically and with hackers.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ica-s-aircraft-carriers-could-become-obsolete
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...studies/studies/vol48no4/new_face_of_war.html
https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-n...ar-first-and-a-shooting-war-a-distant-second/
https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...ure-myanmar-rohingya-trump-xi-jinping/543168/
https://supchina.com/2018/03/06/two-sessions-beijing-budgets-international-influence/

LOL...no wonder you are a Trump supporter...the level of ego and lack of self-awareness is incredible. 
http://foreignpolicy.com/2018/04/13/why-china-will-win-the-trade-war/
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018...w-china-is-becoming-an-innovation-superpower/
http://www.atimes.com/article/china-winning-high-stakes-race-dominate-5g/
https://asiancorrespondent.com/2018/01/china-winning-tech-arms-race-united-states/

BTW:  SK is basically a government ran economy...all of its research and economic powers are concentrated by a few companies that are backed and supported by the government.  Go ask anyone who has done any business in SK about trying to compete against the chaebols.  They're pretty innovative.
 
The US started their carrier program in the 1910's.  China started their carrier program in the 2010's.  This would be like Hitler using Napoleonic technology and claiming to be a world power.  He would be laughed out of the room.

I'm proud that you know how to use Google, but even the links you posted say China is in 2nd place on virtually every technology. 

If you were a serious thinker, you wouldn't resort to bashing your fellow voters and citizens.  It's like your "tell" when the insecurity sets in.

Even Hillary said TPP was a bad idea, so you are in disagreement with all of the major Presidential candidates on this issue.
 
The purpose of the aircraft carriers are different.

US use its aircraft carriers for power projection in battle groups.

Soviets used their submarines for strike/power projection.  Their aircraft carrier's planes are used for defensive roles to protect naval assets.

China's CV-16 is for training and prestige.  The hull design was originally borrowed from Kiev-class and the Su-33 emphasized air superiority role.  But in this combination (CV-16/J-15) you're putting a large plane on a medium displacement carrier, which reduces the number of planes you can operate (this is actually a bigger issue than the lack of catapults).  In contrast Russia and India looked to MiG-29K, which is smaller and you can operate larger number of planes on deck.

CV-17 and the yet to be named larger carrier follows China's two track program, as seen with Sovremennyy/052B and 051C/052D class destroyers.  Track 1 for lower risk, proven imported system/design and track 2 for higher risk domestic product.  Despite whatever propaganda you might have read, the naval planners are methodical and taking their time to learn how to walk before they run.
 
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