Transparency? What are the Details of the Healthplan Reform?

trrenter_IHB

trrenter_IHB

New member
I can't find what the actual plan is.



I see we have raised the cost to 1.5 trillion. Which is less then a pack of cigarrettes <a href="http://www.wmur.com/news/20065263/detail.html">23 Quadrillion Dollars.</a>



I see we are talking about making insurance mandatory. With most of the burden placed on medical providers, employers and the wealthy.

No details on that yet.



Maybe a $1,000 fine if you don't carry health inurance.



Rengal said there may be 634 billion in tax increases and a 400 billion dollar cut to Medicare and Medicaid.



Taxing healtcare benifits has been mentioned too. Like McCain was advocating and Obama opposed.



Can anyone help me find the details of this healthplan?



All I keep seeing is more details about where we will get money next week.



<blockquote>Rangel said that while House Democrats will likely release more details about health policy changes in their legislation next week, the package of offsetting tax increases and spending cuts likely will come later. Democrats, he said, want to put forth the more-positive aspects of an overhaul first. Rangel also wants to let lawmakers have time to study and weigh in on proposed offsets.



?We have a problem in not wanting to attract enough negative attention to the bill in terms of the pay-fors,? he said. ?Let them get a good feel for the coverage.?

</blockquote>


I am a little worried now.



I found it! <a href="http://edlabor.house.gov/blog/2009/07/americas-affordable-health-choices-act.shtml">America's Affordable Healthcare Choices Act</a>
 
[quote author="green_cactus" date=1247792049]Where did the $1.5 trillion come from?!? That's not the CBO estimate.</blockquote>


<a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31940828/ns/politics-capitol_hill/">$1.5 trillion plan costs too much. </a>



<blockquote>House Democrats on Thursday pushed ahead with legislation that would deliver on President Barack Obama's promise to remake the health care system and cover some 50 million uninsured, despite concerns from their own party's moderate and conservative lawmakers that the $1.5 trillion plan costs too much.



Congressional Budget Office Director Douglas Elmendorf warned lawmakers the legislation that he has seen so far would raise costs, not lower them. Elmendorf was asked by Senate Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad, D-N.S., if the bills Congress is considering would "bend the cost curve." The budget director responded: "The curve is being raised."



Subsidies to help uninsured people would raise federal health care spending, which is already growing at an unsustainable rate, Elmendorf explained at a hearing. The Medicare and Medicaid cuts that lawmakers have offered to pay for the coverage expansion aren't big enough to offset the cost trend, particularly in the long term, he said. </blockquote>
 
How was this number figured out ?!? (other than appearing on an AP press release). CBO did an analysis and came up with 2/3 of the amount.
 
<a href="http://www.kaiseredu.org/topics_im.asp?imID=1&parentID=61&id=358">http://www.kaiseredu.org/topics_im.asp?imID=1&parentID=61&id=358</a>



<blockquote>Health care costs have been rising for several years. Expenditures in the United States on health care surpassed $2.2 trillion in 2007, more than three times the $714 billion spent in 1990, and over eight times the $253 billion spent in 1980. Stemming this growth has become a major policy priority, as the government, employers, and consumers increasingly struggle to keep up with health care costs.</blockquote>


1.5 Trillion over 10 years = 150 billion per year.



A 6.8% increase in costs to cover 40+ million people.



<blockquote>Total health care expenditures grew at an annual rate of 6.1 percent in 2007, a slower rate than recent years, yet still outpacing inflation and the growth in national income.</blockquote>


You literally won't even feel 6.8%, since you've been paying 6.1% for years, assuming they simply strap it on the backs of those already paying the costs.
 
[quote author="green_cactus" date=1247795727]How was this number figured out ?!? (other than appearing on an AP press release). CBO did an analysis and came up with 2/3 of the amount.</blockquote>


I don't know. I think it is an estimate based on the actual plan that was released.



The last CBO numbers were a little over 1 Trillion as a preliminary assesment. Then I saw 1.5 Trillion.



That is why I was looking for more details of the plan. The plan doesn't shed light on the cost.



<a href="http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10430/House_Tri-Committee-Rangel.pdf">CBO preliminary estimate</a>



What I was thinking is that there was something included in the released plan not accounted for here.



Again I am not sure but I was wondering where the new .5 Trillion came from.
 
[quote author="trrenter" date=1247796882][quote author="green_cactus" date=1247795727]How was this number figured out ?!? (other than appearing on an AP press release). CBO did an analysis and came up with 2/3 of the amount.</blockquote>


I don't know. I think it is an estimate based on the actual plan that was released.



The last CBO numbers were a little over 1 Trillion as a preliminary assesment. Then I saw 1.5 Trillion.



That is why I was looking for more details of the plan. The plan doesn't shed light on the cost.



<a href="http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10430/House_Tri-Committee-Rangel.pdf">CBO preliminary estimate</a>



What I was thinking is that there was something included in the released plan not accounted for here.



Again I am not sure but I was wondering where the new .5 Trillion came from.</blockquote>


You mean that 2% a year?
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1247796604]<a href="http://www.kaiseredu.org/topics_im.asp?imID=1&parentID=61&id=358">http://www.kaiseredu.org/topics_im.asp?imID=1&parentID=61&id=358</a>



<blockquote>Health care costs have been rising for several years. Expenditures in the United States on health care surpassed $2.2 trillion in 2007, more than three times the $714 billion spent in 1990, and over eight times the $253 billion spent in 1980. Stemming this growth has become a major policy priority, as the government, employers, and consumers increasingly struggle to keep up with health care costs.</blockquote>


1.5 Trillion over 10 years = 150 billion per year.



A 6.8% increase in costs to cover 40+ million people.



<blockquote>Total health care expenditures grew at an annual rate of 6.1 percent in 2007, a slower rate than recent years, yet still outpacing inflation and the growth in national income.</blockquote>


You literally won't even feel 6.8%, since you've been paying 6.1% for years, assuming they simply strap it on the backs of those already paying the costs.</blockquote>


I can't even comment on this yet because I don't have a clue what the 1 - 1.5 Trillion covers yet.
 
[quote author="trrenter" date=1247796882][quote author="green_cactus" date=1247795727]How was this number figured out ?!? (other than appearing on an AP press release). CBO did an analysis and came up with 2/3 of the amount.</blockquote>


I don't know. I think it is an estimate based on the actual plan that was released.



The last CBO numbers were a little over 1 Trillion as a preliminary assesment. Then I saw 1.5 Trillion.



That is why I was looking for more details of the plan. The plan doesn't shed light on the cost.



<a href="http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10430/House_Tri-Committee-Rangel.pdf">CBO preliminary estimate</a>



What I was thinking is that there was something included in the released plan not accounted for here.



Again I am not sure but I was wondering where the new .5 Trillion came from.</blockquote>


The extra $0.5 trillion came out of thin air and is now claimed as fact. The bottom line is that we don't know what the exact tab is going to be until after the bill is fully shaped.
 
I think I may have uncovered the answer.



The CDO says the plan will add 1 trillion to the Deficit.



Then add the new taxes that are helping pay for this and those are estimated at $540 billion and maybe that is where the 1.5 number came from.



In other words add teh 1 Trillion deficit to the $540 we are taxing to pay and you have 1.5 billion.
 
[quote author="trrenter" date=1247805771]I think I may have uncovered the answer.



The CDO says the plan will add 1 trillion to the Deficit.



Then add the new taxes that are helping pay for this and those are estimated at $540 billion and maybe that is where the 1.5 number came from.



In other words add teh 1 Trillion deficit to the $540 we are taxing to pay and you have 1.5 billion.</blockquote>


- from the "Thin Air Dept", this just in!
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1247806166][quote author="trrenter" date=1247805771]I think I may have uncovered the answer.



The CDO says the plan will add 1 trillion to the Deficit.



Then add the new taxes that are helping pay for this and those are estimated at $540 billion and maybe that is where the 1.5 number came from.



In other words add teh 1 Trillion deficit to the $540 we are taxing to pay and you have 1.5 billion.</blockquote>


- from the "Thin Air Dept", this just in!</blockquote>


I didn't make up the 1.5 got it from the AP.



If the CBO was firm in their number I would say the AP did pull the 1.5 out of thin air. But when I see this:



<strong>The CBO report states that its cost estimates are preliminary and not yet comprehensive, as administrative and other costs are not yet projected.</strong>
 
[quote author="trrenter" date=1247806775][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1247806166][quote author="trrenter" date=1247805771]I think I may have uncovered the answer.



The CDO says the plan will add 1 trillion to the Deficit.



Then add the new taxes that are helping pay for this and those are estimated at $540 billion and maybe that is where the 1.5 number came from.



In other words add teh 1 Trillion deficit to the $540 we are taxing to pay and you have 1.5 billion.</blockquote>


- from the "Thin Air Dept", this just in!</blockquote>


I didn't make up the 1.5 got it from the AP.



If the CBO was firm in their number I would say the AP did pull the 1.5 out of thin air. But when I see this:



<strong>The CBO report states that its cost estimates are preliminary and not yet comprehensive, as administrative and other costs are not yet projected.</strong></blockquote>


Expected deficit of $1trillion with extra revenue from taxation at $0.54trillion. Wouldn't that come out to be to a total cost of $0.46trillion?!?!?
 
[quote author="green_cactus" date=1247812726][quote author="trrenter" date=1247806775][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1247806166][quote author="trrenter" date=1247805771]I think I may have uncovered the answer.



The CDO says the plan will add 1 trillion to the Deficit.



Then add the new taxes that are helping pay for this and those are estimated at $540 billion and maybe that is where the 1.5 number came from.



In other words add teh 1 Trillion deficit to the $540 we are taxing to pay and you have 1.5 billion.</blockquote>


- from the "Thin Air Dept", this just in!</blockquote>


I didn't make up the 1.5 got it from the AP.



If the CBO was firm in their number I would say the AP did pull the 1.5 out of thin air. But when I see this:



<strong>The CBO report states that its cost estimates are preliminary and not yet comprehensive, as administrative and other costs are not yet projected.</strong></blockquote>


Expected deficit of $1trillion with extra revenue from taxation at $0.54trillion. Wouldn't that come out to be to a total cost of $0.46trillion?!?!?</blockquote>


I don't think so. You raise $540 trillion through taxes and spend it and then spend another 1 trillion that you don't have (the deficit from the CBO) and you have 1.5 billion.
 
<blockquote>But that?s not the concerning part. <strong>The political smack down and railroad by congress to stiffle transparency and debate is Orwellian.</strong>



If we?re going to socialize medicine, then the Dems need to grow some balls and SOCIALIZE medicine. Own it, fix it, and make the hard choices to ration care and shift resources to where they will make a difference.

</blockquote>


<blockquote>?<strong>We have a problem in not wanting to attract enough negative attention to the bill in terms of the pay-fors,? he said. ?Let them get a good feel for the coverage.?</strong> </blockquote>


I copied No Such's comments from the other thread to this thread. I then reiterated Rengals comment on the Health Care act.



I agree with No Such here there isn't transparancy.



I see one story that says 1 Trillion and one that says 1.5 Trillion and we are sitting here arguing which number is correct.



The answer should be simple to get IF the government were transparent as promised.



I would like to know the Pay-Fors that are purposely being with held.



<blockquote>Democrats, he said, want to put forth the more-positive aspects of an overhaul first.</blockquote>


In other words they want to with hold information.
 
[quote author="trrenter" date=1247825086][quote author="green_cactus" date=1247812726][quote author="trrenter" date=1247806775][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1247806166][quote author="trrenter" date=1247805771]I think I may have uncovered the answer.



The CDO says the plan will add 1 trillion to the Deficit.



Then add the new taxes that are helping pay for this and those are estimated at $540 billion and maybe that is where the 1.5 number came from.



In other words add teh 1 Trillion deficit to the $540 we are taxing to pay and you have 1.5 billion.</blockquote>


- from the "Thin Air Dept", this just in!</blockquote>


I didn't make up the 1.5 got it from the AP.



If the CBO was firm in their number I would say the AP did pull the 1.5 out of thin air. But when I see this:



<strong>The CBO report states that its cost estimates are preliminary and not yet comprehensive, as administrative and other costs are not yet projected.</strong></blockquote>


Expected deficit of $1trillion with extra revenue from taxation at $0.54trillion. Wouldn't that come out to be to a total cost of $0.46trillion?!?!?</blockquote>


I don't think so. You raise $540 trillion through taxes and spend it and then spend another 1 trillion that you don't have (the deficit from the CBO) and you have 1.5 billion.</blockquote>


You are mixing up your trillions and billions ... what's a couple of 0s anyways? :p
 
After lawsuit, Obama opens a bit of info on meetings with health care executives.



url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32087532/ns/politics-white_house/]Obama refuses to release vistors list JUST LIKE BUSH!!!!![/url]



Way to go O!!!!! Way to be transparent on what you yourself are calling the most important issue of your presidency.



Another Change for the Obmama administration. I chagned my stance on Transparency.
 
[quote author="trrenter" date=1247787581]I can't find what the actual plan is.



I see we have raised the cost to 1.5 trillion. Which is less then a pack of cigarrettes <a href="http://www.wmur.com/news/20065263/detail.html">23 Quadrillion Dollars.</a>



I see we are talking about making insurance mandatory. With most of the burden placed on medical providers, employers and the wealthy.

No details on that yet.



Maybe a $1,000 fine if you don't carry health insurance.



Rengal said there may be 634 billion in tax increases and a 400 billion dollar cut to Medicare and Medicaid.



Taxing healtcare benifits has been mentioned too. Like McCain was advocating and Obama opposed.



Can anyone help me find the details of this healthplan?



All I keep seeing is more details about where we will get money next week.



<blockquote>Rangel said that while House Democrats will likely release more details about health policy changes in their legislation next week, the package of offsetting tax increases and spending cuts likely will come later. Democrats, he said, want to put forth the more-positive aspects of an overhaul first. Rangel also wants to let lawmakers have time to study and weigh in on proposed offsets.



?We have a problem in not wanting to attract enough negative attention to the bill in terms of the pay-fors,? he said. ?Let them get a good feel for the coverage.?

</blockquote>


I am a little worried now.



I found it! <a href="http://edlabor.house.gov/blog/2009/07/americas-affordable-health-choices-act.shtml">America's Affordable Healthcare Choices Act</a></blockquote>


My beef with this thing is making it mandatory that you have to be insured period. Thanks comrade but some people can't afford to pay their bills and a lot of young people could care less about health care that they will not want to pay this extra burden. So your going to fine an 18 year old $1000 working at McDonalds he is going to tell you to go to hell and never pay your fine and probably start a wonderful life commiting crime because the healthcare nazis will not allow him to find another job. I don't mind a few choices from the government vs private health care but to make it mandatory is just plain wrong. I keep having the same visual as this is the government that runs the IRS or the DMV now running you health care? Scares the crap out of me and my guess will be a complete flop. Hell the government can't even manage Medicare with half of the money it pays out goes to fraud and waste. BS the government can not manage national health care ever. Fix Medicare first then lets talk...
 
[quote author="OCCOBRA" date=1248475799][quote author="trrenter" date=1247787581]I can't find what the actual plan is.



I see we have raised the cost to 1.5 trillion. Which is less then a pack of cigarrettes <a href="http://www.wmur.com/news/20065263/detail.html">23 Quadrillion Dollars.</a>



I see we are talking about making insurance mandatory. With most of the burden placed on medical providers, employers and the wealthy.

No details on that yet.



Maybe a $1,000 fine if you don't carry health insurance.



Rengal said there may be 634 billion in tax increases and a 400 billion dollar cut to Medicare and Medicaid.



Taxing healtcare benifits has been mentioned too. Like McCain was advocating and Obama opposed.



Can anyone help me find the details of this healthplan?



All I keep seeing is more details about where we will get money next week.



<blockquote>Rangel said that while House Democrats will likely release more details about health policy changes in their legislation next week, the package of offsetting tax increases and spending cuts likely will come later. Democrats, he said, want to put forth the more-positive aspects of an overhaul first. Rangel also wants to let lawmakers have time to study and weigh in on proposed offsets.



?We have a problem in not wanting to attract enough negative attention to the bill in terms of the pay-fors,? he said. ?Let them get a good feel for the coverage.?

</blockquote>


I am a little worried now.



I found it! <a href="http://edlabor.house.gov/blog/2009/07/americas-affordable-health-choices-act.shtml">America's Affordable Healthcare Choices Act</a></blockquote>


My beef with this thing is making it mandatory that you have to be insured period. Thanks comrade but some people can't afford to pay their bills and a lot of young people could care less about health care that they will not want to pay this extra burden. So your going to fine an 18 year old $1000 working at McDonalds he is going to tell you to go to hell and never pay your fine and probably start a wonderful life commiting crime because the healthcare nazis will not allow him to find another job. I don't mind a few choices from the government vs private health care but to make it mandatory is just plain wrong. I keep having the same visual as this is the government that runs the IRS or the DMV now running you health care? Scares the crap out of me and my guess will be a complete flop. Hell the government can't even manage Medicare with half of the money it pays out goes to fraud and waste. BS the government can not manage national health care ever. Fix Medicare first then lets talk...</blockquote>


When that McDonalds employee shows up at the ER for serious complications of something a doctor could have treated, who pays for it?
 
[quote author="green_cactus" date=1248495914][quote author="OCCOBRA" date=1248475799][quote author="trrenter" date=1247787581]I can't find what the actual plan is.



I see we have raised the cost to 1.5 trillion. Which is less then a pack of cigarrettes <a href="http://www.wmur.com/news/20065263/detail.html">23 Quadrillion Dollars.</a>



I see we are talking about making insurance mandatory. With most of the burden placed on medical providers, employers and the wealthy.

No details on that yet.



Maybe a $1,000 fine if you don't carry health insurance.



Rengal said there may be 634 billion in tax increases and a 400 billion dollar cut to Medicare and Medicaid.



Taxing healtcare benifits has been mentioned too. Like McCain was advocating and Obama opposed.



Can anyone help me find the details of this healthplan?



All I keep seeing is more details about where we will get money next week.



<blockquote>Rangel said that while House Democrats will likely release more details about health policy changes in their legislation next week, the package of offsetting tax increases and spending cuts likely will come later. Democrats, he said, want to put forth the more-positive aspects of an overhaul first. Rangel also wants to let lawmakers have time to study and weigh in on proposed offsets.



?We have a problem in not wanting to attract enough negative attention to the bill in terms of the pay-fors,? he said. ?Let them get a good feel for the coverage.?

</blockquote>


I am a little worried now.



I found it! <a href="http://edlabor.house.gov/blog/2009/07/americas-affordable-health-choices-act.shtml">America's Affordable Healthcare Choices Act</a></blockquote>


My beef with this thing is making it mandatory that you have to be insured period. Thanks comrade but some people can't afford to pay their bills and a lot of young people could care less about health care that they will not want to pay this extra burden. So your going to fine an 18 year old $1000 working at McDonald's he is going to tell you to go to hell and never pay your fine and probably start a wonderful life committing crime because the health care Nazis will not allow him to find another job. I don't mind a few choices from the government vs private health care but to make it mandatory is just plain wrong. I keep having the same visual as this is the government that runs the IRS or the DMV now running you health care? Scares the crap out of me and my guess will be a complete flop. Hell the government can't even manage Medicare with half of the money it pays out goes to fraud and waste. BS the government can not manage national health care ever. Fix Medicare first then lets talk...</blockquote>


When that McDonald's employee shows up at the ER for serious complications of something a doctor could have treated, who pays for it?</blockquote>


Mayor McCheese Lutheran Hospital of course. I question the employee for not being proactive by ignoring symptoms and not trying to find help. Help can be hard to find so irregardless he could have hit the emergency sooner than latter. So not buying it. You can take a horse to water but sometimes you have to let natural selection take its course...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top