The Death of Conservatism

[irvine_home_owner_IHB]

Yet when it comes to life choices like sexual orientation

Sorry, nit picking here.......FYI, I didn't choose it.....it chose me. Sexual orientation is not a preference or a choice. It is ...simply...an orientation. Hard wired.

Wait... you didn't get to choose? There is a meeting and everything before you're born... unfortunately for me... I chose ugly.

I apologize... I hope you understand that's not what I meant in trying to be concise.

 

[Trooper_IHB]

Thanks for the (funny!) claification i.h.o.

"Can I have your attention. There will be a sexual orientation meeting at the clubhouse at 9:00. Anyone not there will will their orientation assigned for them!" LOL !

 

[skek_IHB]

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[jwbrown77_IHB]

This landslide election and economic crisis will provide an environment for a dramatic increase in the size and scope of our national government and even deeper intrusion into our lives.

This seems to be the ideology of the modern Republican party.

If Republicans had stuck to their "ideals" rather than talking out of one side of their mouths and enacting entirely different laws, they might have a leg to stand on for a quick return.

For now, they look like the masters of big government and government intrusion.

If the Republicans want some hope, here it is: Democrats have been traditionally afraid of their own shadow. If they actually have the guts to follow through on their ideals *and* somehow manage to run the government relatively efficiently (like Clinton), the Republicans are going to be working for a while trying to convince people why they're relevant to anyone outside of religious fundamentalists and high income earners with no other interest but top bracket tax cuts.

 

[no_vaseline_IHB]

I watched O'Riley tonight. He had as a guest my closet hero Karl Rove.

Rove said the Republicans failed to pin the economys problems on thier real cause - Fannie and Freddie.

I think the GOP would do well to put down the Kool Aid and leave the denial behind.

 

[IrvineRenter_IHB]

I think the GOP would do well to put down the Kool Aid and leave the denial behind.

The truth is McCain lost because America did not want him or his policies.

 

[no_vaseline_IHB]

I think the GOP would do well to put down the Kool Aid and leave the denial behind.

The truth is McCain lost because America did not want him or his policies.

I understand that, but I'm telling you Rove doesn't. His opinion is they were unable to stay "on message". There are no personel or policy problems, only issues with marketing and message.

I agree with you thier product is broken. I suspect Rove isn't alone.

 

[Nude_IHB]

I think the GOP would do well to put down the Kool Aid and leave the denial behind.

The truth is McCain lost because America did not want him or his policies.

I understand that, but I'm telling you Rove doesn't. His opinion is they were unable to stay "on message". There are no personel or policy problems, only issues with marketing and message.

I agree with you thier product is broken. I suspect Rove isn't alone.

Karl Rove squeezed the last bit of life out of the social conservative's issues in 2004. That well is dry for the next generation or so. Without that, and having abandoned the rest of the conservative ideals over 12 years, there was nothing left to support.

 

[no_vaseline_IHB]

The sheen is coming off the social conservatives favorite Alaskan:

Ok, I expect MSNBC to savage Sister Sarah, but Fox News and on O'Reiley's show?

I've seen it all.

 

[EvaLSeraphim_IHB]

I heard snippets of this "Fresh Air"tonight. Had Mr. Edwards been advising McCain, or if more R's thought the same, I think the GOP would be more appreciated.

 

[freedomCM_IHB]

Fox news is now trashing Palin. circular firing squad time.

 

[skek_IHB]

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[tmare_IHB]

I believe that the backlash caused by the blame that will be placed on Palin for hurting rather than helping the Republican ticket will make it very difficult for her to launch a serious run for the White House anytime soon. She may step it up and end up in Washington in some capacity in four years or less but it will be a while before people forget this disastrous campaign.

Hey, it's the first time I can actually quote myself, but it seems to be working out this way, especially on FOX (nice to see them losing their minds over who to blame). I also find it interesting that Republicans are hard at work trying to figure out how to get their power back. Maybe there are other ways to accomplish good things for the country using the cards they have been dealt. How about some cooperation and hard work towards helping the average person try to cope with the economic mess we are in? Instead, the fundraising for the next election begins along with all of the bickering and partisanship. No wonder nothing gets done.

 

[Nude_IHB]

Maybe this thread should be retitled "The Death of Republicanism" because it's clear that the two largest factions of the party are at war. On the one side you have Goldwater, Reagan, Gingrich, et al. On the other you have Eisenhower, Nixon, Bush 41, Dole, Bush 43. One champions fiscal conservatism and small government, the other champions big business and country clubs. They both share a belief in strong defense and social stability. As skek's post has pointed out, Bush's "compassionate conservativism" turned out to be a code phrase for big government, big tax breaks, and big deficit spending.

McCain claimed to be of the Goldwater camp but he lost my vote because his policy proposals always put him in the country club. And now his advisors are trashing the only self-defined 'conservative' (I'm withholding judgement on that until I see her overall record as Governor) after they used her to get out the base vote. I don't remember this happening to John Edwards, Joe Lieberman, Jack Kemp, Lloyd Bentsen, Gerry Ferraro, Bob Dole, or Tom Eagleton... do you?

I can't predict who will win, but I can predict that if the country club set wins control of the GOP they will never win another majority anywhere in American politics. Conservatives don't need them.

 

[xsocal land merchant_IHB]

Long time Republican turned Independent.

I was at the McCain rally on Monday night at 12:45 am in Prescott, AZ and was invited to sit on stage within 10 feet of John McCain. It was amazing to see his energy and stamina after 7 states of campaigning especially for a person of his age with the effects of his 5 years of captivity by the NVA. The opportunity to be up close to any candidate for that office will always give me goose bumps regardless of who they are or what my political views are as I am an American first and totally respect that office.

As a Republican since 1968 I changed to Independent when I left California 18 months ago so I approached this election with an open mind. Yes, at this age I lived through the political rise and assassination of John,Bobby and MLK. You might call me cynical based on my historical perspective but I still have a deep belief in our democratic process. As a veteran of the Viet-Nam era I have the utmost respect for John McCain and a disdain for unpopular needless wars and their effect on both our country and the country where they are fought.

I like many of the things that Obama offered in the beginning but could not vote for him due to his stance on gun ownership and his longtime relations with people who are into a social form of government. Remember that his job was to get money from the government and grants and to redistribute it through groups that met with his beliefs and political agenda. That is not a slam but a fact. That is what a community organizer does. He didn’t create jobs, or product, or services. He did not generate profits from a business. He used other peoples money to shape and reach social goals. I am not saying that this is bad but it is what it is.

At this time I do hope that he can live up to the ideas that he set as goals in his acceptance speech. I give him my full support as President and truly hope for the country’s benefit that his leadership can bring both sides together to solve the serious problems we now face. Washington politics and a politician’s need for money are very challenging to a Presidents well meaning ideas and only time will tell if he can transend the quagmire of Democrats vs Republicans.

We need to reserve our judgements for 12-18 months to see who he selects as adviser’s, cabinet members, and how much cross isle support he can actually accomplish. Lets see how he handles unforeseen situations that affect our country. It is far too early to say weather he will succeed or fail. We all need to give Obama a fair chance.

His multi-cultural and bi-racial background should give him more of a positive view from other countries at first. It will be interesting to see if this can be converted to political good will or if the first time he does what is in the “best interest of America” the other countries turn against him. Remember that he was elected P.O.T.U.S not president of the world. His first goal is to be re-elected in 4 years by a majority of this country so he may even have to butt heads with Nancy P. That will be exciting.

He may be the right person at the right time and if so then we will all be better for it. My greatest fear is that if he is unsuccessful then the millions of people that he got involved will become disenchanted with the system.

Lets go forward with a positive attitude and open minds.

Just a view from a Red, White, and Blue good ‘ole boy.

 

[IrvineRenter_IHB]

Republican principles haven’t failed. Republican leadership has. And whether or not it is arguable, it is this perception amongst the electorate that trumps.

That is really the only argument Republicans have left. Unfortunately, the electorate will not make the distinction between Republican principals and the Republican leadership. When leaders cannot be trusted to live up to their ideals, they cannot be trusted at all. This betrayal of trust is likely to keep the Republicans in the minority for another generation. Seriously, unless the Democrats really screw up, the Republicans cannot regain their majority until all of those who where in office in 2006 are gone.

Let's say you had a young firebrand come up like Newt Gingerich. Someone with charisma who preached the ideals and principals of the old Republican party. Who would believe him? We all fell under that spell once with Gingerich and the Revolution, and look what it got us. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice... The electorate will not forget this any time soon. I will not forget this anytime soon.

 

[WestparkRenter_IHB]

Republican principles haven’t failed. Republican leadership has. And whether or not it is arguable, it is this perception amongst the electorate that trumps.

That is really the only argument Republicans have left. Unfortunately, the electorate will not make the distinction between Republican principals and the Republican leadership. When leaders cannot be trusted to live up to their ideals, they cannot be trusted at all. This betrayal of trust is likely to keep the Republicans in the minority for another generation. Seriously, unless the Democrats really screw up, the Republicans cannot regain their majority until all of those who where in office in 2006 are gone.

Let's say you had a young firebrand come up like Newt Gingerich. Someone with charisma who preached the ideals and principals of the old Republican party. Who would believe him? We all fell under that spell once with Gingerich and the Revolution, and look what it got us. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice... The electorate will not forget this any time soon. I will not forget this anytime soon.

Never say never in politics. In 8 years, people can't wait to elect another president for change.

 

[skek_IHB]

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[WINEX_IHB]

The electorate will not forget this any time soon. I will not forget this anytime soon.

In short, yes you will. Maybe not you, specifically, but the country will. Or more accurately, it won't take long for the Republicans to regain their standing in the country, if they get their house in order.

It's funny, you start one thread to compare the hysteria of Democrats when Reagan was elected to the hysteria of Republicans now that Obama has been elected. In that thread you wisely concluded "The American populace is fickle when it comes to its political leaders. If peoples lives improve, they will vote incumbents back into office; if their lives do not improve, they will vote them out."

Yet in this thread you are suggesting the death of conservatism and predicting that the GOP will wander in the wilderness for a generation. I think you were right the first time.

No, IR is right. This is a permanent change. We are in End Times. If this isn't a sign of the apocalypse, I don't know what is: Pelosi calls for permanent tax cuts

 

[IrvineRenter_IHB]

The electorate will not forget this any time soon. I will not forget this anytime soon.

In short, yes you will. Maybe not you, specifically, but the country will. Or more accurately, it won't take long for the Republicans to regain their standing in the country, if they get their house in order.

It's funny, you start one thread to compare the hysteria of Democrats when Reagan was elected to the hysteria of Republicans now that Obama has been elected. In that thread you wisely concluded "The American populace is fickle when it comes to its political leaders. If peoples lives improve, they will vote incumbents back into office; if their lives do not improve, they will vote them out."

Yet in this thread you are suggesting the death of conservatism and predicting that the GOP will wander in the wilderness for a generation. I think you were right the first time.

When Bush had a solidly Republican majority in both houses, people were talking about the Republicans having a permanent majority, having conquered the electoral map. Now, less than a decade later, they are saying the opposite. Yet, these same two parties have played football between the 40 yard lines since the 1850s. Nothing has changed. The Democrats get their turn to govern. They will make mistakes. The public will become disillusioned. Meanwhile, the Republicans will regroup and refine their message. They will seize on new issues that will pry off swing voters. The cycle will repeat.

Nearly every mid-term election goes against the party that controls the White House. I suspect 2010 will be no different. What if by 2010 we are in the midst of a severe two year recession? What if some of the very economic conditions that you have predicted come to pass? Interest rates may be in double digits. Wages may be stagnant. Taxes are high. Companies and municipalities filing bankruptcy. Middle class homeowners facing foreclosure because their Option ARMs are resetting. Will those folks vote the incumbents back into office? There are no long memories in politics.

On an unrelated matter, I would also submit to you that conservatism as a philosophy is still dominant in America. The Democrats engineered their takeover in 2006 by running extremely conservative candidates with conservative values in purple districts -- Jim Webb, Bob Casey and Heath Shuler, for example. 2008 had similar examples. Listen also to the political rhetoric. When Obama talks about government spending, he calls it investment. When he talks about protectionist trade policies, he calls it "fair trade." When he accidentally says he wants to redistribute the wealth, he spends a week disowning a comment that many liberals view as a positive policy goal. Conservative ballot propositions fared very well across the country in this election, despite McCain's defeat. And lastly, in an election that you claim signals the death knell of conservatism, in the five battleground states that determined the election, Obama did no better than 51%. Do you think that hatred of George W. Bush and the economic crisis was worth 2% to Obama? Can you guarantee that those headwinds will be blowing again in 2012?

The fact is, as Nude implied, Republicans lost, conservatism didn't. Heads need to roll within the GOP in order for us to be competitive in 2010. But conservatism is alive and well, and I look forward to a new generation of Republican leadership who will reclaim the Party and reinvigorate a commitment to the core principles abandoned by the current leadership.

When I was saying in the other thread that the electorate is fickle, I was pointing out that when the other party screws up, and when they are blamed for it, we will throw out incumbents. The American people will remember the mistakes of a political party for 20 years or more and hold them accountable, unless the party in power makes a series of major mistakes. When the Democrats took over Congress in 1954, they were in power for 40 years (except for the Senate from 1981-1987). They became corrupt, and they lost sight of their ideals as well (Yes, Democrats have ideals too). They were thrown out of power, and if Bush and the Republicans who took over had not screwed up so bad, the Democrats would still be out of power. The electorate is fickle, but they need a reason to change. Absent a reason, the opposition party may have great ideas, but they will not obtain power (incumbents are reelected more than 90% of the time). In fact, the party in power is not above usurping the ideas of the opposition party and claiming them as their own (As you noted that Democrats have embraced certain conservative ideals).

You have asserted that conservatism is still the dominant philosophy in America. I suppose it depends on how you define it, but this is where I disagree. It was the dominant philosophy in America. It is not anymore. Watch the political discourse in the country change when the new Congress and President takes office. It will happen. The people in power do not embrace many conservative ideals. With the Bush Administration and the Republican Congress, the political discourse was dominated by people with the same conservative philosophical underpinnings (even though they abandoned their beliefs). The new people in power are not conservatives. They will not think, reason or talk like conservatives. Does this mean they will embrace old-style Liberalism? I doubt it. The thread is not about the resurgence of Liberalism, it is about the death of Conservatism. The movement will not die, but its power to shape policy and dominate political discourse is over for the time being.

As for the Republicans, they will likely make gains in the next series of elections. I believe Democratic power is at its zenith with this President and Congress. Their majorities are huge, and the large electoral margin is going to give Obama plenty of political clout. Their power will decline from here, but they are very powerful right now. Their majorities are practically unassailable -- at least until they screw up. They will not get blamed for the current economic mess any more than Reagan was blamed in 1982. With such overwhelming majorities, the political posturing and compromises in Washington will not be between Democrats and Republicans, it will be between various factions within the Democratic party. The Republicans in the Senate have some power with their weak filibuster margin, but the Republicans in the House don't even need to show up.

Is any of this permanent? Of course not, but it is my opinion that unless or until the Democrats really screw up, they will be in power for the foreseeable future. Their power will weaken over time, and eventually the Republicans will get another chance. Hopefully, next time they will not blow it.