Solar Energy

tmare_IHB

tmare_IHB

New member
I'd like to hear opinions about having panels put on my home. For a variety of reasons, we are huge electricity users, to the tune of about $300 a month on average. Our highest bill was $750 about 2 years ago. The prices have come down significantly and my estimate is that the break even point for what I am looking at should be about 4.5 years. Anyone already done it? Feel free to give me the pros and cons as this is a decision I will be making very soon.
 
[quote author="tmare" date=1248938034]I'd like to hear opinions about having panels put on my home. For a variety of reasons, we are huge electricity users, to the tune of about $300 a month on average. Our highest bill was $750 about 2 years ago. The prices have come down significantly and my estimate is that the break even point for what I am looking at should be about 4.5 years. Anyone already done it? Feel free to give me the pros and cons as this is a decision I will be making very soon.</blockquote>


You home currently faces south and the roof orientation is optimum. The downside is the visibility of the panels from the front that will distract from the aesthetic of your home.
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1248940296][quote author="tmare" date=1248938034]I'd like to hear opinions about having panels put on my home. For a variety of reasons, we are huge electricity users, to the tune of about $300 a month on average. Our highest bill was $750 about 2 years ago. The prices have come down significantly and my estimate is that the break even point for what I am looking at should be about 4.5 years. Anyone already done it? Feel free to give me the pros and cons as this is a decision I will be making very soon.</blockquote>


You home currently faces south and the roof orientation is optimum. The downside is the visibility of the panels from the front that will distract from the aesthetic of your home.</blockquote>


We were told today that because of the trees in the front of the house (we have one very large ficus in the patio in the front of the house and another in the yard) that the panels would go in the second most optimal location: the east side of the house. Pretty much the only people who would see them would be our next door neighbor and anyone who happened to be looking at our roof while driving west down our street. They wouldn't be visible from the front.
 
[quote author="tmare" date=1248940518][quote author="bkshopr" date=1248940296][quote author="tmare" date=1248938034]I'd like to hear opinions about having panels put on my home. For a variety of reasons, we are huge electricity users, to the tune of about $300 a month on average. Our highest bill was $750 about 2 years ago. The prices have come down significantly and my estimate is that the break even point for what I am looking at should be about 4.5 years. Anyone already done it? Feel free to give me the pros and cons as this is a decision I will be making very soon.</blockquote>


You home currently faces south and the roof orientation is optimum. The downside is the visibility of the panels from the front that will distract from the aesthetic of your home.</blockquote>


We were told today that because of the trees in the front of the house (we have one very large ficus in the patio in the front of the house and another in the yard) that the panels would go in the second most optimal location: the east side of the house. Pretty much the only people who would see them would be our next door neighbor and anyone who happened to be looking at our roof while driving west down our street. They wouldn't be visible from the front.</blockquote>


Make sure the east facing panel receives more that just morning light. People selling you panels are interested in making the sale and not focused on how much energy is being generated when the panels are on your roof. Have them do a estimated calculation and write that into your contract the range for summer and winter days.
 
Do your break-even calculations really take everything into account? Did you factor in installation, storage costs and switches? Does all the equipment have long-term warranties, backed by companies that will likely be around for a while? I've done the math before on a couple homes, using a few sets of assumptions each. Granted, $300/month is quite high, but without looking at the numbers I would still question the benefit. Solar costs around $5/watt without installation, storage, or infrastructure, and I pay $1.20 per year for that same 1-watt from the power company. I'm guessing there is much lower-hanging fruit in getting your total energy consumption down. I'm not a green advocate by any means, but I do love to cut costs. I know off the top of my head that my TV uses 80 watts, my portable AC 750 watts, and my fridge (average) 112 watts. Replacing a single halogen bulb in the living room with a $3 3-way fluorescent saves me about $20/year, and putting all my computer peripherals on a power strip saved me over $100/year. I've found there are ways to cut costs--at least a little--on a lot of things except a couple of the big hitters. Heaters and electric dryers can't really be made more efficient by virtue of what they do; by definition they are 100% inefficient. A gas dryer replacing an electric will pay off a lot sooner than a solar panel will.



How much energy does $300 buy you? I consume ~400 kw-h per month fairly consistently, except for maybe 1 or 2 months in the summer when I run the AC.
 
[quote author="Daedalus" date=1248945955]Do your break-even calculations really take everything into account? Did you factor in installation, storage costs and switches? Does all the equipment have long-term warranties, backed by companies that will likely be around for a while? I've done the math before on a couple homes, using a few sets of assumptions each. Granted, $300/month is quite high, but without looking at the numbers I would still question the benefit. Solar costs around $5/watt without installation, storage, or infrastructure, and I pay $1.20 per year for that same 1-watt from the power company. I'm guessing there is much lower-hanging fruit in getting your total energy consumption down. I'm not a green advocate by any means, but I do love to cut costs. I know off the top of my head that my TV uses 80 watts, my portable AC 750 watts, and my fridge (average) 112 watts. Replacing a single halogen bulb in the living room with a $3 3-way fluorescent saves me about $20/year, and putting all my computer peripherals on a power strip saved me over $100/year. I've found there are ways to cut costs--at least a little--on a lot of things except a couple of the big hitters. Heaters and electric dryers can't really be made more efficient by virtue of what they do; by definition they are 100% inefficient. A gas dryer replacing an electric will pay off a lot sooner than a solar panel will.



How much energy does $300 buy you? I consume ~400 kw-h per month fairly consistently, except for maybe 1 or 2 months in the summer when I run the AC.</blockquote>


I appreciate your comments. Apparently the price includes a 25 year warranty on everything (but I will carefully check). Just to give you an idea of why our bills are so high: a husband who is an amateur herpetologist (a lot of heat lamps running 24/7), three fish tanks, a pond, a pool and jacuzzi (used virtually every day from April-October and about once a week other times), a house that is in use all day (no down time), two refrigerators (would require a kitchen remodel to get a space big enough for a larger refrigerator), a wife (me) who grew up by the beach and can't stand any temperature greater than 74 degrees, preschool age children and the dirty clothes that come with them, and a family that refuses to turn off anything (granted, we can work on this). We already have a gas dryer. Apparently somehow our usage has gone down over the past two years but I can't for the life of me figure out how. I think I am calculating everything in the 4.5 years to break even, but you have given me a few extra questions to ask. Thanks.
 
I'll second D's CFL and powerstrip recommendations.



I replaced the 150 Watt lights with CFLs so instead of running about a 1KWh per hour at night, I'm running about 230W. Plus I'm not dumping the additional 2500 BTU into the room with light-heat.
 
[quote author="tmare" date=1248947251]a husband who is an amateur herpetologist </blockquote>
I had to look that one up. Glad it isn't what I thought it sounded like it was.



I think I recommended it before, but I'll post it again. <a href="http://www.p3international.com/products/special/P4400/P4400-CE.html">This thing</a> paid for itself *many* times over in a very short amount of time for me. I did have to change some behaviors, but it's a lot easier to do when you know with certainty what the $ benefit will be. I even put post-it notes in my parents' house so they would know how much their big appliances costs them. E.g. I put one on the dryer that says $1.50/hour.
 
[quote author="Daedalus" date=1248948979][quote author="tmare" date=1248947251]a husband who is an amateur herpetologist </blockquote>
I had to look that one up. Glad it isn't what I thought it sounded like it was.



I think I recommended it before, but I'll post it again. <a href="http://www.p3international.com/products/special/P4400/P4400-CE.html">This thing</a> paid for itself *many* times over in a very short amount of time for me. I did have to change some behaviors, but it's a lot easier to do when you know with certainty what the $ benefit will be. I even put post-it notes in my parents' house so they would know how much their big appliances costs them. E.g. I put one on the dryer that says $1.50/hour.</blockquote>


That thing seems a bit anal for me and I'm not sure it would change our behavior. We have full-time jobs, a messy house and kids starting school. I'm beginning to think that homework and packing lunches is going to be the straw that killed the camel, the camel being me. Point is that I'm just not sure that those things would change a lot around here. I'm learning a lot though.
 
I'm considering doing this once I get settled (that is, in a few years, not immediately). Partially for the sheer geekness of it. When you do your calculations, remember to factor in the various rebates and tax breaks that come with installing them.
 
[quote author="Geotpf" date=1248949948]I'm considering doing this once I get settled (that is, in a few years, not immediately). Partially for the sheer geekness of it. When you do your calculations, remember to factor in the various rebates and tax breaks that come with installing them.</blockquote>


The rebates and tax breaks are one of the major reasons we are doing it. Companies actually eat the tax break until you actually receive it, you reimburse them. Believe me, they come armed with all of that data, I'm just here finding out all of the good things to ask and make sure are actually written into the contract. Just FYI, the actual quote for our house was $15,500 including all tax breaks and rebates, we questioned the need for 12 panels and asked for the cost for 10 panels since it seemed that it might make more sense and the price dropped to $10,500 and the break-even point was one month later. We apparently can add panels at a far lesser cost later if it seems like it might be worth it. They gave us the line that the tax incentives may disappear within 5 years and it is true that they are actually less now than a few years ago (but so is the price). They are telling us that it really only makes sense for people who pay over $150 per month on electricity, as you are paying the much more expensive Tier 3-5 rates due to excessive usage. I truly understand that our usage is excessive, but when I married my husband, he had fish tanks and reptiles, I don't think I can expect that to change (and it's fun for my kids).
 
[quote author="Daedalus" date=1248948979][quote author="tmare" date=1248947251]a husband who is an amateur herpetologist </blockquote>
<strong>I had to look that one up. Glad it isn't what I thought it sounded like it was.

</strong>

I think I recommended it before, but I'll post it again. <a href="http://www.p3international.com/products/special/P4400/P4400-CE.html">This thing</a> paid for itself *many* times over in a very short amount of time for me. I did have to change some behaviors, but it's a lot easier to do when you know with certainty what the $ benefit will be. I even put post-it notes in my parents' house so they would know how much their big appliances costs them. E.g. I put one on the dryer that says $1.50/hour.</blockquote>


I guess if you change a letter, you probably could have called Child Services on me (especially since the kids are enjoying it). Combine that with my own heating lamps comment and you have a big LOL. Glad you looked it up.



The reptiles are happily and very expensively warm.
 
[quote author="tmare" date=1248940518][quote author="bkshopr" date=1248940296][quote author="tmare" date=1248938034]I'd like to hear opinions about having panels put on my home. For a variety of reasons, we are huge electricity users, to the tune of about $300 a month on average. Our highest bill was $750 about 2 years ago. The prices have come down significantly and my estimate is that the break even point for what I am looking at should be about 4.5 years. Anyone already done it? Feel free to give me the pros and cons as this is a decision I will be making very soon.</blockquote>


You home currently faces south and the roof orientation is optimum. The downside is the visibility of the panels from the front that will distract from the aesthetic of your home.</blockquote>


We were told today that because of the trees in the front of the house (<strong>we have one very large ficus in the patio in the front of the house and another in the yard</strong>) that the panels would go in the second most optimal location: the east side of the house. Pretty much the only people who would see them would be our next door neighbor and anyone who happened to be looking at our roof while driving west down our street. They wouldn't be visible from the front.</blockquote>


1. Let me know if you are serious on doing this, you know I have the hook ups.



2. I really should come over and see where that said Ficus is located. I recently had the three I had around my house removed, because of the potential damage their high lying roots could have caused.



3. herpetologist... had to look it up too. I thought you might have mistyped and your husband was really good at growing things indoors. However, from what I know... and I really don't know much about this, but when you go from high electrical use and then install solar panels... well... it looks like you need to hide an increased energy usage due to a larger growing area, you know... for basil and tomatoes.
 
have you tried an attic fan? I am thinking about getting one. Any one have installed one lately or have an installer recommendation?



I have a friend uses solar driven pool pumps to circulate and heat the pool. It works well. However, you can't heat the spa with it, as usually solar is not available when you need it at night time. Unless you install battery storage system.
 
An attic fan was my pathetic attempt at cooling down the house prior to having air conditioning installed, it didn't work for us and it is so damn noisy. The ficus tree has probably been there for more than 30 years, it's huge and it's truly the only shade the house gets. I have it trimmed every two years and the main root cut. According to the previous owner as long as the root is cut every two years it won't tear up the concrete around it (she lived here for 30 years). Upon the first signs of a problem, it will come down.
 
[quote author="tmare" date=1248954220]I guess if you change a letter, you probably could have called Child Services on me (especially since the kids are enjoying it). Combine that with my own heating lamps comment and you have a big LOL. Glad you looked it up.

</blockquote>Well, I tried to decipher the root of the word and had it pared it down to "herpe".



[quote author="tmare" date=1248949616]That thing seems a bit anal for me </blockquote>The cost benefit math for using it is a lot simpler than showing a solar power system good on paper. ;) Do you know how much your refrigerators cost to run? This is an extreme case, but I cut my parents' electric bill from $200/mo to $120/mo by having them replace both of their refrigerators with 2 new energy star units. Breakeven will occur in a little more than a year. It's an extreme case because I think they were the only people in the country still using a pair of 30-year-old refrigerators. They would have *never* agreed to spend money to replace anything that wasn't broken, until I took the measurements and showed them the irrefutable math. And no change in behavior needed, as I knew that wasn't going to happen with them either. You can find out energy consumption estimates for all energy star appliances <a href="http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=appliances.pr_appliances">here</a>. Now I need to find a 240v meter so I can find out how much their water heater is costing them. I bet it's a huge chunk of the other $120/mo they're spending
 
[quote author="Daedalus" date=1249009205][quote author="tmare" date=1248954220]I guess if you change a letter, you probably could have called Child Services on me (especially since the kids are enjoying it). Combine that with my own heating lamps comment and you have a big LOL. Glad you looked it up.

</blockquote>Well, I tried to decipher the root of the word and had it pared it down to "herpe".



[quote author="tmare" date=1248949616]That thing seems a bit anal for me </blockquote>The cost benefit math for using it is a lot simpler than showing a solar power system good on paper. ;) Do you know how much your refrigerators cost to run? This is an extreme case, but I cut my parents' electric bill from $200/mo to $120/mo by having them replace both of their refrigerators with 2 new energy star units. Breakeven will occur in a little more than a year. It's an extreme case because I think they were the only people in the country still using a pair of 30-year-old refrigerators. They would have *never* agreed to spend money to replace anything that wasn't broken, until I took the measurements and showed them the irrefutable math. And no change in behavior needed, as I knew that wasn't going to happen with them either. You can find out energy consumption estimates for all energy star appliances <a href="http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=appliances.pr_appliances">here</a>. Now I need to find a 240v meter so I can find out how much their water heater is costing them. I bet it's a huge chunk of the other $120/mo they're spending</blockquote>


You've definitely made me think about replacing one of our two refrigerators and getting one of those little devices. I really wish we could just get to one refrigerator but the space in my old house for the frig is just too small. I also forgot the always running kegerator in the garage, geez my husband is expensive!
 
I'm a fan of solar energy -- I own some FSLR solar energy stock.



But be careful when using a solar contractor's promises of energy savings. Perhaps you've heard the old saying, If you are trying to sell a hammer, everybody's problems look like nails. Unless your home faces the right direction, and there are no trees (now or in the future) obstructing their exposure, solar panels might not be your best energy saving investment. You need to keep them clean, too.



Typically, the best investment is additional insulation. Insulate the hot water heater, exposed hot water pipes, and the attic.

Don't overlook the air conditioner. If it's more than 10 years old, there is likely to be a short pay-back period to replace it with a new, high-efficiency unit. A good place for information is <a href="http://www.acdoctor.com/">this web site. </a> Of course, the web site is sponsored by an air conditioning equipment distributor (Watsco [WSO]), so the same hammer and nail rule applies.
 
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