Obama's change?

I think people believe the President is more powerful then he really is.



It appears as though our entire Government is incompetent to me.



The three biggest issues in the Bush presidency were 911/Al Qaeda, Iraq and now the financial melt down.



Starting with 911/Al Qaeda on October 12th 2000 Al Qaeda Bombed the USS Cole which is considered an act of War. How/What did the Clinton administration do in response. This was a test to see how the American people would react and we failed. This was a bold attack against the America and we had almost no response. I guess Clinton thought it could wait until it became the next Presidents problem.



Here are the requirments for the Cease Fire for the original gulf war in 1991:

Requiring Iraq to dismantle all WMD and all long-range missiles *under international supervision* (article C).

Requiring Iraq to abandon all future WMD programs (article C)

Comply with UN restrictions on the importation of conventional weapons (article F)

Permenantly abandon support for terrorism (article H)



As I look at all of these requirements Iraq was in violation of them and yet during the entire Clinton administration almost nothing was done except trying to negotiate inspections on a regular basis.

Did we find WMD, no but were they in violation of the Cease fire agreement? Yes.



Those same type of requirments were made against Japan and Germany during previose Cease Fire agreements. Japan was not allowed to rebuild their military and they abided by their Cease fire but Iraq did not.



Clinton did nothing. Wonder if things would have been different if the Clinton adminstration started dropping some bombs outside of Bagdad to show Hussein we really need access to those weapons facilities and for Iraq to start abiding by the terms of the Cease Fire.



I think that instead of declaring that Iraq had WMD that we should have just said they are in violation of the Cease Fire agreement and we are forced to use Military force to gain what was agreed upon.



Does anyone really believe that if we left Hussein to his own devices without inspection that he wouldn't have WMD's today?



Bush inherited The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, also known as the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Financial Services Modernization Act, Pub.L. 106-102, 113 Stat. 1338, enacted November 12, 1999, is an Act of the United States Congress which repealed part of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, opening up competition among banks, securities companies and insurance companies. The Glass-Steagall Act prohibited a bank from offering investment, commercial banking, and insurance services.



Bush sounded the warning as early as 2001 about Fannie and Freddie: "The Administration's FY02 budget declares that the size of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is "a potential problem," because "financial trouble of a large GSE could cause strong repercussions in financial markets, affecting Federally insured entities and economic activity." Then in 2004: "The President's FY05 Budget again highlights the risk posed by the explosive growth of the GSEs and their low levels of required capital, and called for creation of a new, world-class regulator: "The Administration has determined that the safety and soundness regulators of the housing GSEs lack sufficient power and stature to meet their responsibilities, and therefore?should be replaced with a new strengthened regulator." (2005 Budget Analytic Perspectives, pg. 83) "



So since we are declaring Bush an Idiot what if anything would the democrats done differently? What if anything would this competent Junior Senator have done to stop this mess we are in?



I don't think that Bush was necessarily the best President but the seeds to many of these issues were planted during the Clinton administration. I am hoping that "the government" will do a better job in the future but to lay all of this at Bush's feet seems somewhat unfair.



Just as laying all the failures of the next four years at Obama's feet would be unfair.
 
Change requires competant people.

Incompetant people = all talk and no action = no change.

So, what's the problem with picking competent people?
 
[quote author="trrenter" date=1227749393]I think people believe the President is more powerful then he really is.



It appears as though our entire Government is incompetent to me.



The three biggest issues in the Bush presidency were 911/Al Qaeda, Iraq and now the financial melt down.



Starting with 911/Al Qaeda on October 12th 2000 Al Qaeda Bombed the USS Cole which is considered an act of War. How/What did the Clinton administration do in response. This was a test to see how the American people would react and we failed. This was a bold attack against the America and we had almost no response. I guess Clinton thought it could wait until it became the next Presidents problem.



Here are the requirments for the Cease Fire for the original gulf war in 1991:

Requiring Iraq to dismantle all WMD and all long-range missiles *under international supervision* (article C).

Requiring Iraq to abandon all future WMD programs (article C)

Comply with UN restrictions on the importation of conventional weapons (article F)

Permenantly abandon support for terrorism (article H)



As I look at all of these requirements Iraq was in violation of them and yet during the entire Clinton administration almost nothing was done except trying to negotiate inspections on a regular basis.

Did we find WMD, no but were they in violation of the Cease fire agreement? Yes.



Those same type of requirments were made against Japan and Germany during previose Cease Fire agreements. Japan was not allowed to rebuild their military and they abided by their Cease fire but Iraq did not.



Clinton did nothing. Wonder if things would have been different if the Clinton adminstration started dropping some bombs outside of Bagdad to show Hussein we really need access to those weapons facilities and for Iraq to start abiding by the terms of the Cease Fire.



I think that instead of declaring that Iraq had WMD that we should have just said they are in violation of the Cease Fire agreement and we are forced to use Military force to gain what was agreed upon.



Does anyone really believe that if we left Hussein to his own devices without inspection that he wouldn't have WMD's today?



Bush inherited The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, also known as the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Financial Services Modernization Act, Pub.L. 106-102, 113 Stat. 1338, enacted November 12, 1999, is an Act of the United States Congress which repealed part of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, opening up competition among banks, securities companies and insurance companies. The Glass-Steagall Act prohibited a bank from offering investment, commercial banking, and insurance services.



Bush sounded the warning as early as 2001 about Fannie and Freddie: "The Administration's FY02 budget declares that the size of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is "a potential problem," because "financial trouble of a large GSE could cause strong repercussions in financial markets, affecting Federally insured entities and economic activity." Then in 2004: "The President's FY05 Budget again highlights the risk posed by the explosive growth of the GSEs and their low levels of required capital, and called for creation of a new, world-class regulator: "The Administration has determined that the safety and soundness regulators of the housing GSEs lack sufficient power and stature to meet their responsibilities, and therefore?should be replaced with a new strengthened regulator." (2005 Budget Analytic Perspectives, pg. 83) "



So since we are declaring Bush an Idiot what if anything would the democrats done differently? What if anything would this competent Junior Senator have done to stop this mess we are in?



I don't think that Bush was necessarily the best President but the seeds to many of these issues were planted during the Clinton administration. I am hoping that "the government" will do a better job in the future but to lay all of this at Bush's feet seems somewhat unfair.



Just as laying all the failures of the next four years at Obama's feet would be unfair.</blockquote>


It's amazing how many people fail to realize the impact of the violation of the cease fire agreement on our decision making process. How many people have made outlandish claims before the war like "Iraq is a sovereign country"? The fact is that prior to March 2003, they weren't a sovereign country.



Also, not to nitpick, but if you read what President Bush said before the war, it's clear that the press was lying when they said it was all about WMDs. Also, for the record, we did find WMDs. Not in the quantity expected. In all probability, they were moved to Syria because the start of the war was well telegraphed. But we did remove tons of yellow cake uranium, gas centrifuges, reference strains of botulinum toxin and growth media, sarin and mustard gas among other things.



The text to President Bush's address to the UN in September 2002 can be found <a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/09/20020912-1.html">here.</a>



From that speech:



To suspend hostilities, to spare himself, Iraq's dictator accepted a series of commitments. The terms were clear, to him and to all. And he agreed to prove he is complying with every one of those obligations.



He has proven instead only his contempt for the United Nations, and for all his pledges. By breaking every pledge -- by his deceptions, and by his cruelties -- Saddam Hussein has made the case against himself.





...



If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will immediately and unconditionally forswear, disclose, and remove or destroy all weapons of mass destruction, long-range missiles, and all related material.



If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will immediately end all support for terrorism and act to suppress it, as all states are required to do by U.N. Security Council resolutions.



If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will cease persecution of its civilian population, including Shi'a, Sunnis, Kurds, Turkomans, and others, again as required by Security Council resolutions.



If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will release or account for all Gulf War personnel whose fate is still unknown. It will return the remains of any who are deceased, return stolen property, accept liability for losses resulting from the invasion of Kuwait, and fully cooperate with international efforts to resolve these issues, as required by Security Council resolutions.



If the Iraqi regime wishes peace, it will immediately end all illicit trade outside the oil-for-food program. It will accept U.N. administration of funds from that program, to ensure that the money is used fairly and promptly for the benefit of the Iraqi people.



If all these steps are taken, it will signal a new openness and accountability in Iraq. And it could open the prospect of the United Nations helping to build a government that represents all Iraqis -- a government based on respect for human rights, economic liberty, and internationally supervised elections.
 
In case you may have not noticed.



In a few months. All American troops in Iraq will be restricted

to their bases. Only direct orders from Iraqi commanders will

authorize US Troops to conduct operations.



The WAR IS OVER. Finshed. Done. No more.



Just think. That 25 Billion Detroit wants.

Thats 3 months in Iraq.



George Bush squandered 4200 American Lives and almost a Trillion Dollars

that he borrowed. For What ? To overthrow a cheap Dictator that a few years ago

was our friend. We are far worse off with Iran and the balance of power in the Middle East.

Where are those weapons of mass destruction anyway. Nothing but lies.

Bush should be charged with War Crimes.



An "Arab Democracy". Stupid Americans. Arabs are tribal and have been for centuries.

And we are going to kill enough of them to make a Democracy. How inane.

As long as they are Non Secular. Democracy is impossible.



Just look at Turkey. Its not Arab either. Its Muslim.

But just holding on as a Secular country.



Arab and Democracy are Oxymorons. Never going to happen.
 
Thanks Winex further proves the point I was trying to make. Iraq had been playing those games for Clinton's entire term with no action.



blt the point is that we may not have needed to go into Iraq had more action been taken prior to the "war". What good are terms of a cease fire if they are not enforced? So we stop bombing Iraq after they INVADED a peaceful country after they agree to certain conditions. Then they don't abide by those conditions.



That sounds like a very dangerous precedent to me. Just say you will stop with no intention of stopping and we will pull out.



Again maybe there werent' as many WMD's as we thought but as Winex pointed out the media made it all about Wmd's.



Do you really believe that had we not taken action Hussein would have stopped trying or not gotten more brazen?



Had bush not placed forces in Iraq you can bet the house that eventually Saddam would have been sucessful. Then everyone would have been saying "Bush is an idiot for not doing something sooner" They wouldn't let us inspect the weapons facilities. What kind of idiot would sit by and think WMD's werent' being produced. Bush should have bombed them.



What do you suppose we should have done. Asked for the 100th time to let us look at the weapons facilities before they moved everything again?
 
It should also be noted that Hussein was openly supporting numerous terrorist groups. In addition to harboring al-Zarqawi, Abu Nidal, Abu Abbas and Abdul Rahman Yasin (Google the names if you don't recognize them) In the weeks before the March 2003 start of the war, Saddam Hussein openly gave cash to families of Intifada suicide bombers in Israel.



What I also find amusing is that an idiot like BLTSERV accuses others of being KKK members, yet openly promotes racist beliefs such as "Arabs are incapable of having a democracy".
 
[quote author="bltserv" date=1227753086]In case you may have not noticed.



In a few months. All American troops in Iraq will be restricted

to their bases. Only direct orders from Iraqi commanders will

authorize US Troops to conduct operations.



The WAR IS OVER. Finshed. Done. No more.



Just think. That 25 Billion Detroit wants.

Thats 3 months in Iraq.



George Bush squandered 4200 American Lives and almost a Trillion Dollars

that he borrowed. For What ? To overthrow a cheap Dictator that a few years ago

was our friend. We are far worse off with Iran and the balance of power in the Middle East.

Where are those weapons of mass destruction anyway. Nothing but lies.

Bush should be charged with War Crimes.



An "Arab Democracy". Stupid Americans. Arabs are tribal and have been for centuries.

And we are going to kill enough of them to make a Democracy. How inane.

As long as they are Non Secular. Democracy is impossible.



Just look at Turkey. Its not Arab either. Its Muslim.

But just holding on as a Secular country.



Arab and Democracy are Oxymorons. Never going to happen.</blockquote>


Iraq was a mistake. However, to call Bush a liar is beyond the pale. Clearly the US and other international intelligence agencies believed Iraq was developing WMDs. Was Colin Powell lying through his teeth during his speech to the UN? If Bush, who you regard as stupid, was able to deceive so many, including the majority of democrats in Congress, and was so evil that he knowing perpetuated such a lie, he was certainly capable of planting WMDs in Iraq. It only would have taken one or two biological weapons. Being wrong does not make one a liar.



Don?t call Americans stupid. Every race, regardless of their heritage and history, can be rational and rise above conflict. In fact, show me a race that wasn't once ruled by religious thought and "tribal" governments. If you pigeonhole an entire race of people as too stupid or primitive to accept democracy, then you are the idiot, not "Americans."
 
The M.O. of the Democrats and the liberal left....we piss on you and slander you but you better not fight back.



I wasn't joking about Bush-43 getting a fair shake from history. Abe Lincoln was deemed a complete f-up and so was Harry Truman...now both are endured by the history books.
 
[quote author="three sheets" date=1227758243][quote author="bltserv" date=1227753086]In case you may have not noticed.



In a few months. All American troops in Iraq will be restricted

to their bases. Only direct orders from Iraqi commanders will

authorize US Troops to conduct operations.



The WAR IS OVER. Finshed. Done. No more.



Just think. That 25 Billion Detroit wants.

Thats 3 months in Iraq.



George Bush squandered 4200 American Lives and almost a Trillion Dollars

that he borrowed. For What ? To overthrow a cheap Dictator that a few years ago

was our friend. We are far worse off with Iran and the balance of power in the Middle East.

Where are those weapons of mass destruction anyway. Nothing but lies.

Bush should be charged with War Crimes.



An "Arab Democracy". Stupid Americans. Arabs are tribal and have been for centuries.

And we are going to kill enough of them to make a Democracy. How inane.

As long as they are Non Secular. Democracy is impossible.



Just look at Turkey. Its not Arab either. Its Muslim.

But just holding on as a Secular country.



Arab and Democracy are Oxymorons. Never going to happen.</blockquote>


Iraq was a mistake. However, to call Bush a liar is beyond the pale. Clearly the US and other international intelligence agencies believed Iraq was developing WMDs. Was Colin Powell lying through his teeth during his speech to the UN? If Bush, who you regard as stupid, was able to deceive so many, including the majority of democrats in Congress, and was so evil that he knowing perpetuated such a lie, he was certainly capable of planting WMDs in Iraq. It only would have taken one or two biological weapons. Being wrong does not make one a liar.



Don?t call Americans stupid. Every race, regardless of their heritage and history, can be rational and rise above conflict. In fact, show me a race that wasn't once ruled by religious thought and "tribal" governments. If you pigeonhole an entire race of people as too stupid or primitive to accept democracy, then you are the idiot, not "Americans."</blockquote>


So where in the world is Arab Democracy ? Name a country in the Arab world where democracy could exist ? These people are proud of there tribal past. They go back well before Christ

with their form of government and tradition. Even the Ottoman Empire was careful not to

try and change this part of the world when they took it over in 1535.



America was very stupid and has repeated the failures of Viet Nam all over again.

Trying to impose our form of government in foreign countries for extended periods

with military occupation is just plain DUMB. And George W. Bush was the man at the wheel.

Now that he is going to be out of power. This conflict that he endorsed and allowed

will come to an end.



Where are all those weapons ? You bought into the lie. It was called fear. The only weapons

of mass distruction Iraq had were the ones WE GAVE THEM to fight Iran. Dont you think all those American lives and American Treasure could have been better spent ?

But George Bush and his inflated Ego would never let the truth be told. He was WRONG in maintaining a long drawn out attempt at democracy in Iraq. Never mind a thousand years of history in Iraq that told him otherwise.



Just listen to Dick Cheney in 1994

<object width="325" height="250"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/youtube" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="325" height="250"></embed></object>



Thank god we dont have McCain in power and another 100 years of war.
 
Actually, this one is better...

<img src="http://www.steevven1.com/images/optimus prime.jpg" alt="" />
<fieldset class="gc-fieldset">
<legend> Attached files </legend> <a href="http://www.talkirvine.com/converted_files/images/forum_attachments/190_pGsUeLo2xkgF7PrJm1gb.jpg"><img src="http://www.talkirvine.com/converted_files/images/forum_attachments/190_pGsUeLo2xkgF7PrJm1gb.jpg" class="gc-images" title="optimus prime.jpg" style="max-width:300px" /></a> </fieldset>
 
BLT,



What Cheney said made sense AT THAT TIME. We achieved our goals. We drove Saddam out of Kuwait, decimated his army and humiliated him. The best course of action "AT THAT TIME" was to give him a chance to give up and sign the Cease Fire.



IF Saddam had continued to follow ALL aspects of the cease fire we would not have had to go back into Iraq. What you are failing to mention or to see is that Iraq and Saddam were a hostile nation willing to invade the countries around them. IF they were allowed to rebuild their military and produce WMD's the next logical step would be invasions of any country Saddam saw fit to invade.



A demilitarized Iraq with no WMD's or programs to produce WMD's was the best bet AT THAT TIME. Saddam changed that when he decided he didn't like the rules he signed up for.



The big question is why wasn't something done sooner by Clinton? Was the idea to just keep asking for Saddams permission? Wait for him to invade another country? Have an isolationist view that it doesn't effect us?



It became clear that diplomacy was lost on Saddam.



Agree or disagree with the course of action it doesn't make Bush an idiot or incompetent.
 
[quote author="trrenter" date=1227767443]



Agree or disagree with the course of action it doesn't make Bush an idiot or incompetent.</blockquote>


Hahaha... Yes it does.
 
[quote author="bltserv" date=1227764923][quote author="three sheets" date=1227758243][quote author="bltserv" date=1227753086]In case you may have not noticed.



In a few months. All American troops in Iraq will be restricted

to their bases. Only direct orders from Iraqi commanders will

authorize US Troops to conduct operations.



The WAR IS OVER. Finshed. Done. No more.



Just think. That 25 Billion Detroit wants.

Thats 3 months in Iraq.



George Bush squandered 4200 American Lives and almost a Trillion Dollars

that he borrowed. For What ? To overthrow a cheap Dictator that a few years ago

was our friend. We are far worse off with Iran and the balance of power in the Middle East.

Where are those weapons of mass destruction anyway. Nothing but lies.

Bush should be charged with War Crimes.



An "Arab Democracy". Stupid Americans. Arabs are tribal and have been for centuries.

And we are going to kill enough of them to make a Democracy. How inane.

As long as they are Non Secular. Democracy is impossible.



Just look at Turkey. Its not Arab either. Its Muslim.

But just holding on as a Secular country.



Arab and Democracy are Oxymorons. Never going to happen.</blockquote>


Iraq was a mistake. However, to call Bush a liar is beyond the pale. Clearly the US and other international intelligence agencies believed Iraq was developing WMDs. Was Colin Powell lying through his teeth during his speech to the UN? If Bush, who you regard as stupid, was able to deceive so many, including the majority of democrats in Congress, and was so evil that he knowing perpetuated such a lie, he was certainly capable of planting WMDs in Iraq. It only would have taken one or two biological weapons. Being wrong does not make one a liar.



Don?t call Americans stupid. Every race, regardless of their heritage and history, can be rational and rise above conflict. In fact, show me a race that wasn't once ruled by religious thought and "tribal" governments. If you pigeonhole an entire race of people as too stupid or primitive to accept democracy, then you are the idiot, not "Americans."</blockquote>


So where in the world is Arab Democracy ? Name a country in the Arab world where democracy could exist ? These people are proud of there tribal past. They go back well before Christ

with their form of government and tradition. Even the Ottoman Empire was careful not to

try and change this part of the world when they took it over in 1535.



America was very stupid and has repeated the failures of Viet Nam all over again.

Trying to impose our form of government in foreign countries for extended periods

with military occupation is just plain DUMB. And George W. Bush was the man at the wheel.

Now that he is going to be out of power. This conflict that he endorsed and allowed

will come to an end.



Where are all those weapons ? You bought into the lie. It was called fear. The only weapons

of mass distruction Iraq had were the ones WE GAVE THEM to fight Iran. Dont you think all those American lives and American Treasure could have been better spent ?

But George Bush and his inflated Ego would never let the truth be told. He was WRONG in maintaining a long drawn out attempt at democracy in Iraq. Never mind a thousand years of history in Iraq that told him otherwise.



Just listen to Dick Cheney in 1994





Thank god we dont have McCain in power and another 100 years of war.</blockquote>


The fact that there is currently no true 100% Arab democracy does not mean that the Arab culture is impervious to democracy. Show me one true African democracy 100 years ago. The simple fact is that Arab countries, although not completely democratized, are much closer to democracy than they were 50 years ago. Specifically, Egypt and Morocco have made enormous strides towards a democratic government.



America has successfully imposed western style democracies through occupation a number of times.



Again, if you going to assert that Bush lied, then back up your assertion. Don?t just reassert that he was lying. Do you honestly believe that he and much of the domestic and international intelligence community believed that Iraq did not have WMDs and just said it did? If so, share with us why.
 
[quote author="optimusprime" date=1227760685]The M.O. of the Democrats and the liberal left....we piss on you and slander you but you better not fight back.



I wasn't joking about Bush-43 getting a fair shake from history. Abe Lincoln was deemed a complete f-up and so was Harry Truman...now both are endured by the history books.</blockquote>


I am curious as to what you think historians will look back on Bush 43 and list as positive accomplishments? Quite honestly, I don't know what enamors historians with Harry Truman either...
 
[quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1227769549][quote author="optimusprime" date=1227760685]The M.O. of the Democrats and the liberal left....we piss on you and slander you but you better not fight back.



I wasn't joking about Bush-43 getting a fair shake from history. Abe Lincoln was deemed a complete f-up and so was Harry Truman...now both are endured by the history books.</blockquote>


I am curious as to what you think historians will look back on Bush 43 and list as positive accomplishments? Quite honestly, I don't know what enamors historians with Harry Truman either...</blockquote>


Let's start with peacefully disabling Libya's WMD program and the A. Q. Khan "Nuclear Supermarket" that was supplying Libya, Iran and North Korea with the knowledge to build nuclear weapons. That is a direct result of the Iraq war.



Are you on record as saying we would be better off if Khadaffi had nuclear weapons RIGHT NOW?
 
Winex

Not sure what propoganda you have been listening to.



But A. Q. Khan is a hero in Pakistan.

I forgot. Is Pakistan our friend or enemy ?

Guess I am not so sure since thats where Osama bin Laden lives in safety.



Your living in a bubble if you think that Keeping Nuclear materials from

spreading around the world is possible. With the fall of the Soviet Union

and the availability of Enriched Uranium. The production of a simple

device is inevitable. The best way to keep this from becoming a threat

is MAD. Mutual Assured Destruction. When and if we are attacked. The offending

nation will cease to exist. This is what should have happened when all those Saudi

nationals destroyed the Twin Towers on 9/11. But we lacked the sack to make it happen.

If your going to hurt someone. Do it hard and do it right. Ask the Japanese about this lesson.
 
[quote author="bltserv" date=1227774868]Winex

Not sure what propoganda you have been listening to.



But A. Q. Khan is a hero in Pakistan.

I forgot. Is Pakistan our friend or enemy ?

Guess I am not so sure since thats where Osama bin Laden lives in safety.



Your living in a bubble if you think that Keeping Nuclear materials from

spreading around the world is possible. With the fall of the Soviet Union

and the availability of Enriched Uranium. The production of a simple

device is inevitable. The best way to keep this from becoming a threat

is MAD. Mutual Assured Destruction. When and if we are attacked. The offending

nation will cease to exist. This is what should have happened when all those Saudi

nationals destroyed the Twin Towers on 9/11. But we lacked the sack to make it happen.

If your going to hurt someone. Do it hard and do it right. Ask the Japanese about this lesson.</blockquote>


BLTSERV, I'm not sure who you are listening to, but you are a racist idiot.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top