Obama Healthcare Speech

For anyone looking for a reasoned debate...



<a href="http://www.newsweek.com/id/215291">The Case for Killing Granny</a>



<blockquote>My mother wanted to die, but the doctors wouldn't let her. At least that's the way it seemed to me as I stood by her bed in an intensive-care unit at a hospital in Hilton Head, S.C., five years ago. My mother was 79, a longtime smoker who was dying of emphysema. She knew that her quality of life was increasingly tethered to an oxygen tank, that she was losing her ability to get about, and that she was slowly drowning. The doctors at her bedside were recommending various tests and procedures to keep her alive, but my mother, with a certain firmness I recognized, said no. She seemed puzzled and a bit frustrated that she had to be so insistent on her own demise.



The hospital at my mother's assisted-living facility was sustained by Medicare, which pays by the procedure. I don't think the doctors were trying to be greedy by pushing more treatments on my mother. That's just the way the system works. The doctors were responding to the expectations of almost all patients. As a doctor friend of mine puts it, "Americans want the best, they want the latest, and they want it now." We expect doctors to make heroic efforts?especially to save our lives and the lives of our loved ones.



The idea that we might ration health care to seniors (or anyone else) is political anathema. Politicians do not dare breathe the R word, lest they be accused?however wrongly?of trying to pull the plug on Grandma. But the need to spend less money on the elderly at the end of life is the elephant in the room in the health-reform debate. Everyone sees it but no one wants to talk about it. At a more basic level, Americans are afraid not just of dying, but of talking and thinking about death. Until Americans learn to contemplate death as more than a scientific challenge to be overcome, our health-care system will remain unfixable.



Compared with other Western countries, the United States has more health care?but, generally speaking, not better health care. There is no way we can get control of costs, which have grown by nearly 50 percent in the past decade, without finding a way to stop overtreating patients. In his address to Congress, President Obama spoke airily about reducing inefficiency, but he slid past the hard choices that will have to be made to stop health care from devouring ever-larger slices of the economy and tax dollar. A significant portion of the savings will have to come from the money we spend on seniors at the end of life because, as Willie Sutton explained about why he robbed banks, that's where the money is.



As President Obama said, most of the uncontrolled growth in federal spending and the deficit comes from Medicare; nothing else comes close. Almost a third of the money spent by Medicare?about $66.8 billion a year?goes to chronically ill patients in the last two years of life. This might seem obvious?of course the costs come at the end, when patients are the sickest. But that can't explain what researchers at Dartmouth have discovered: Medicare spends twice as much on similar patients in some parts of the country as in others. The average cost of a Medicare patient in Miami is $16,351; the average in Honolulu is $5,311. In the Bronx, N.Y., it's $12,543. In Fargo, N.D., $5,738. The average Medicare patient undergoing end-of-life treatment spends 21.9 days in a Manhattan hospital. In Mason City, Iowa, he or she spends only 6.1 days.



Maybe it's unsurprising that treatment in rural towns costs less than in big cities, with all their high prices, varied populations, and urban woes. But there are also significant disparities in towns that are otherwise very similar. How do you explain the fact, for instance, that in Boulder, Colo., the average cost of Medicare treatment is $9,103, whereas an hour away in Fort Collins, Colo., the cost is $6,448?</blockquote>
 
[quote author="TR_Esq" date=1252728351]If Medicare/Medicaid represent the current state of nationalized healthcare, and assuming that exapanding national health insurance won't drive private insurers out of business (which it will), how can the simple fact that Medicare and Medicaid are the largest drivers of the National deficit justify expanding the program to cover every person?



Btw, don't take my word for it.... "Medicare and Medicaid are the single biggest drivers of the federal deficit and the federal debt by a huge margin." Barack Obama on Wednesday, June 24th, 2009.



I'm not a policy maker, but seems to me that the answers ought to be found in the incentives (e.g. tax credits, etc..) versus socialization of an industry.</blockquote>


Your logic used to arrive at your conclusion is completely false. First off, Medicare/Medicaid handle to most sick people in the country - whereas a universal health insurance program would not and the expense would be divided between healthy and sick.



Second, the Medicare/Medicaid system is whack because it is run on an insurance model - which means vital resources are wasted in overblown paperwork.



Put those two fallacies together and that would explain your wrong conclusion.
 
[quote author="Look4house" date=1252747519][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1252704483][quote author="Look4house" date=1252676021][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1252674466][quote author="TR_Esq" date=1252673768]medicare and medicaid care for the elderly and poor. Is it great care? No. </blockquote>


Yeah, bullshit buddy. If I could buy into Medicare I'd do so in a heartbeat. It kicks the snot out of what private insurance pays for right before you become eligilble if you have to pay for it yourself.



ASSuming you can get somebody to cover you at all.</blockquote>


How does Medicare have better coverage than private insurances? You have specifics to share? I would love to hear and broaden my knowledge. Otherwise, I hate to say, your argument is BS. If you don't know much about Medicare, there is a 20% copay for all outpatient visits with no out-of-pocket maximum. Most major private insurances, if not all has a maximum yearly out-of-pocket maximum.</blockquote>


My wife lost her job in December, and I had to retain COBRA for six months because my wife's asthma (she found another job in a couple of months, but the insurance didn't kick in for 90 days past the start date). The first three were on my nickel before the Obama bailout subsidy kicked in. All told I wrote $4000 in checks there, plus prescription co pays at another $600 a month. That didn't include my insurance (which I could bind) that cost another $1200 over the same period. Now that we are on her companies insurance, it still costs $300 a month ($3600 a year) plus we have a $3000 cap in out of pocket expenses/co pays. We hit that last week because this insurance isn't as generous as the last plan. Lucky for me since I'm self employed, and we haven't been to the hospital yet. And I know damn well the $300 a month we are paying is a pittance compared to what the company is paying. All told I will spend <strong>$13,600 </strong>this year alone and <em>I haven't seen the doctor yet</em>.



My dad has had cancer twice in the past three years. His supplemental Medicare insurance is $200 a month. Combining his Medicare and supplemental insurance his out of pocket is less than a hundred bucks a month. When he got cancer the first time, his out of pocket was $20,000 over two months before Medicare kicked in.



I don't know if this is the specifics you were looking for, and I don't mean to speak for anyone else. All I know is what has happened in my immediate family, and in my experience, Medicare has been a far superior provider.



If you don't want socialized health care, great. Send yours over here. I'll take it. I?ll trade you that for what I lack in portability and denial of coverage with the employer based system.</blockquote>


While everyone agrees that private insurance are expensive and it is a financial burden for the average Americans, you argument is about the cost of premiums, not about Medicare has superior covergae than private insurance. Of course Medicare is cheaper, it is a benefit from our government. But if you disclose your health conditions prior to applying to private insurance, once your application is accepted, your coverage should be equivalent to any other insurances including Medicare.</blockquote>


Except when the insurance company rescind your policy while you are receiving medical care for failing to disclose minor health issues.



I really do not understand why there is a continual trust of companies and corporations to do what is good for society? They are accountable to their shareholders (and at times not even them). They have a fiduciary duty to improve on profit over the expense of workers, customers, and society. It is what they are obligated to do. I would think that the wall st. meltdown and the financial crisis would have prove this conclusively but yet many people are still willing to trust large corporations to handle our health insurance rather than the government.



I do think that corporations and companies are good for many things (innovation, mass production, distribution). Doing what is good and beneficial for society in general is just not one of them.
 
[quote author="IrvineCommuter" date=1252986346]

I really do not understand why there is a continual trust of companies and corporations to do what is good for society? They are accountable to their shareholders (and at times not even them). They have a fiduciary duty to improve on profit over the expense of workers, customers, and society. It is what they are obligated to do. I would think that the wall st. meltdown and the financial crisis would have prove this conclusively but yet many people are still willing to trust large corporations to handle our health insurance rather than the government.



I do think that corporations and companies are good for many things (innovation, mass production, distribution). Doing what is good and beneficial for society in general is just not one of them.</blockquote>


Oddly enough, innovation, mass production, and distribution is pretty beneficial for society in general. I don't comprehend how you can type that out without realizing how wrong you are. Everything from farm products, to water supplies, to fuels for heating, cooking, and transportation, to the internet you are currently using to read this; all made possible by corporations and companies, some of them were even funded by insurance companies. Trying to paint them as evil or untrustworthy is counter-productive, considering that the cases of them denying coverage are out-weighed 1000 to 1 by cases where they pay the bills with no questions.



But the absolutely best thing about private health care versus government health care is this: I can fire a private health care company and choose a new one. Where do I go to fire my government?
 
[quote author="Nude" date=1252987375][quote author="IrvineCommuter" date=1252986346]

I really do not understand why there is a continual trust of companies and corporations to do what is good for society? They are accountable to their shareholders (and at times not even them). They have a fiduciary duty to improve on profit over the expense of workers, customers, and society. It is what they are obligated to do. I would think that the wall st. meltdown and the financial crisis would have prove this conclusively but yet many people are still willing to trust large corporations to handle our health insurance rather than the government.



I do think that corporations and companies are good for many things (innovation, mass production, distribution). Doing what is good and beneficial for society in general is just not one of them.</blockquote>


Oddly enough, innovation, mass production, and distribution is pretty beneficial for society in general. I don't comprehend how you can type that out without realizing how wrong you are. Everything from farm products, to water supplies, to fuels for heating, cooking, and transportation, to the internet you are currently using to read this; all made possible by corporations and companies, some of them were even funded by insurance companies. Trying to paint them as evil or untrustworthy is counter-productive, considering that the cases of them denying coverage are out-weighed 1000 to 1 by cases where they pay the bills with no questions.



But the absolutely best thing about private health care versus government health care is this: I can fire a private health care company and choose a new one. Where do I go to fire my government?</blockquote>


Nude you fail to realize some of the inherent dangers of Capitalism. When the Corporations take control of the lawmakers and become the government. When the wishes of the People For the People are ursurped by Corporations.

This happened with the Railroads in the 19th Century and again with Standard Oil in the early part of the 20th Century.



"The President of United Health made so much money, that one of every $700 that was spent in this country on health care went to pay him"



"Medical debt is the principal cause of personal bankruptcy in the United States, weakening the whole economy"



"The US pays twice as much yet lags other wealthy nations in such measures as infant mortality and life expectancy, which are among the most widely collected, hence useful, international comparative statistics. For 2006-2010, the USA's life expectancy will lag 38th in the world, after most rich nations, lagging last of the G5 (Japan, France, Germany, UK, USA) and just after Chile (35th) and Cuba (37th)".



"Estimates of the total number of people in the United States who die because of lack of medical care range upwards of nearly 100,000 per year".



"An oft-cited study by Harvard Medical School and the Canadian Institute for Health Information determined that some 31% of U.S. health care dollars, or more than $1,000 per person per year, went to health care administrative costs, nearly double the administrative overhead in Canada, on a percentage basis."



Corporations should not have the right to profit at the cost of peoples suffering.



I hate to tell you the future. But this thing is going to get through the Congress and get signed into law.
 
[quote author="bltserv" date=1252989185]I hate to tell you the future. But this thing is going to get through the Congress and get signed into law.</blockquote>
Of that I have no doubt. I also have no doubt that we, as a country, will regret it.



<object width="325" height="250"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/youtube" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="325" height="250"></embed></object>
 
[quote author="Nude" date=1252987375][quote author="IrvineCommuter" date=1252986346]

I really do not understand why there is a continual trust of companies and corporations to do what is good for society? They are accountable to their shareholders (and at times not even them). They have a fiduciary duty to improve on profit over the expense of workers, customers, and society. It is what they are obligated to do. I would think that the wall st. meltdown and the financial crisis would have prove this conclusively but yet many people are still willing to trust large corporations to handle our health insurance rather than the government.



I do think that corporations and companies are good for many things (innovation, mass production, distribution). Doing what is good and beneficial for society in general is just not one of them.</blockquote>


Oddly enough, innovation, mass production, and distribution is pretty beneficial for society in general. I don't comprehend how you can type that out without realizing how wrong you are. Everything from farm products, to water supplies, to fuels for heating, cooking, and transportation, to the internet you are currently using to read this; all made possible by corporations and companies, some of them were even funded by insurance companies. Trying to paint them as evil or untrustworthy is counter-productive, considering that the cases of them denying coverage are out-weighed 1000 to 1 by cases where they pay the bills with no questions.



But the absolutely best thing about private health care versus government health care is this: I can fire a private health care company and choose a new one. Where do I go to fire my government?</blockquote>


It's easy to make rescission sound harmless by quoting numbers such as it only happening 1/1000 of times (or 1/200 by some other estimates - Don Hamm?s sworn testimony to the Energy and Commerce Committee). Still sounds pretty low and unlikely to affect the "average" case. What needs to be included in this argument is the cost of care and who gets affected by rescission. According to a <a href="http://www.ahrq.gov/research/ria19/expriach1.htm">HHS report on total health care expenses</a>, if you are up to 95th percentile of the insured pool, you are incurring a total of up to $11K in costs (worth a couple of years of premiums). This is the profitable portion of the business model and you are not going to be dumped by an insurance company - you are making financial sense to them. The top 1% however, accounts for 22% of expenses paid (at least $35k/person over lifetime). These are the customers that are not financially viable. Expanding that to the top 5%, it accounts to 49% of incurred expenses. These are people that are sick or have an expensive "condition". It would be financially beneficial to rescind their care if a reason can be found for it (in some states, a history of domestic violence would be enough). Given these numbers, about 10/200 people are considered a loss to an insurance company. Given that 1/200 have their coverage rescinded, and it makes financial sense only to do this on the expensive population, we are now talking about 1/10 sick people getting their benefits dropped. If you are a healthy individual, this may be fine with you and the insurance company is making a profit off of you. However, these numbers cannot just be chalked off as too small to matter once you are sick or require some expensive treatment. Your likelihood of losing your coverage increases dramatically.
 
[quote author="green_cactus" date=1252992104] Your likelihood of losing your coverage increases dramatically.</blockquote>


With the government plan, any version of it, I am 100% certain to lose my coverage. But rather than just address the rescission issue with some simple regulation or legislation, you want to tear down thew whole system and start again... with the government in charge.



No one is claiming the current system is perfect, but it can be fixed. The government does not need to be in charge of insurance or delivery or both... and yet that is the only solution being offered.



Edited to add:

Your chart does not say what you claim:

<span style="color: green;"><strong>Chart 1. Percent of Total Health Care Expenses Incurred by Different Percentiles of U.S. Population: 2002</strong></span>

<img src="http://www.ahrq.gov/research/ria19/ria19ch1.gif" alt="" />
 
[quote author="Nude" date=1252987375]I can fire a private health care company and choose a new one. Where do I go to fire my government?</blockquote>


You can? Lucky you. We get one choice with my wife's employer. If she gets unemployed again we get no choice. Again, SEND ME THE BIG GUVMENT PLAN.
 
[quote author="Nude" date=1252992867][quote author="green_cactus" date=1252992104] Your likelihood of losing your coverage increases dramatically.</blockquote>


With the government plan, any version of it, I am 100% certain to lose my coverage.



</blockquote>


What is that based upon? Just wondering.
 
[quote author="Nude" date=1252992867][quote author="green_cactus" date=1252992104] Your likelihood of losing your coverage increases dramatically.</blockquote>


With the government plan, any version of it, I am 100% certain to lose my coverage. But rather than just address the rescission issue with some simple regulation or legislation, you want to tear down thew whole system and start again... with the government in charge.



No one is claiming the current system is perfect, but it can be fixed. The government does not need to be in charge of insurance or delivery or both... and yet that is the only solution being offered.



Edited to add:

Your chart does not say what you claim:

<span style="color: green;"><strong>Chart 1. Percent of Total Health Care Expenses Incurred by Different Percentiles of U.S. Population: 2002</strong></span>

<img src="http://www.ahrq.gov/research/ria19/ria19ch1.gif" alt="" /></blockquote>


From the link:



"Expenditures: Expenditures include the total payments from all sources to hospitals, physicians, other health care

providers (including dental care), and pharmacies for services reported by respondents in the MEPS-HC.

Sources include direct payments from individuals and families, private insurance, Medicare, Medicaid,

and miscellaneous other sources."





"MEPS-HC is a nationally representative <strong>longitudinal</strong> survey that collects detailed information on health

care utilization and expenditures, health insurance, and health status, as well as a wide variety of social,

demographic, and economic characteristics for the civilian noninstitutionalized population. It is cosponsored

by the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality and the National Center for Health Statistics."



Top 1% incurs 22% of all expenses. Top 5% incurs 49% of all expenses. If you are in the 95th percentile, your total expenses are < $11.5K.



EDIT: typo.
 
My business partner is one of the biggest conservatives alive.

He has been listening to Rush Limbaugh every morning at work since we

started working together about 10 years ago.



He is so against this health plan its insane. We get is some great arguments.



But whats really funny. He turns 65 in January. Is he going to refuse his Medicare ?



He may be a proud republican. But not that proud.
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1252994061][quote author="Nude" date=1252987375]I can fire a private health care company and choose a new one. Where do I go to fire my government?</blockquote>


You can? Lucky you. We get one choice with my wife's employer. If she gets unemployed again we get no choice. Again, SEND ME THE BIG GUVMENT PLAN.</blockquote>


I get 2 choices - one of them being Kaiser. Hearing from people that actually work at Kaiser and how they deal with reducing costs this lowers my choices to 1.
 
[quote author="IrvineCommuter" date=1252994335][quote author="Nude" date=1252992867][quote author="green_cactus" date=1252992104] Your likelihood of losing your coverage increases dramatically.</blockquote>


With the government plan, any version of it, I am 100% certain to lose my coverage.



</blockquote>


What is that based upon? Just wondering.</blockquote>


Some employers pay their employee's health care costs outright, using a 3rd party to manage the billing (in this case, Primera) and negotiate prices. Under any of the current bills being considered in the House or Senate, that kind of self-insurance does not comply with the proposed changes. Under <a href="http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/R40724_20090727.pdf">HR3200 specifically</a>, the grandfathered plan is only good for 5 years, at which point they would have to offer a plan from "The Exchange". Regardless of source, all health plans have to be part of "The Exchange" by 2018. It makes far more sense for a company to pay 8% of the premiums than it does 100% of the costs, which means that my wife and I eventually lose our coverage and get shifted to a plan from "The Exchange". I guess this is what <a href="http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2009/06/15/obama-if-you-like-your-doctor-you-can-keep-your-doctor/">Obama meant by</a>:

<blockquote>If you like your doctor, you will be able to keep your doctor. Period. If you like your health care plan, you will be able to keep your health care plan. Period. No one will take it away. No matter what. My view is that health care reform should be guided by a simple principle: fix what?s broken and build on what works.</blockquote>
 
[quote author="Nude" date=1252987375][quote author="IrvineCommuter" date=1252986346]

I really do not understand why there is a continual trust of companies and corporations to do what is good for society? They are accountable to their shareholders (and at times not even them). They have a fiduciary duty to improve on profit over the expense of workers, customers, and society. It is what they are obligated to do. I would think that the wall st. meltdown and the financial crisis would have prove this conclusively but yet many people are still willing to trust large corporations to handle our health insurance rather than the government.



I do think that corporations and companies are good for many things (innovation, mass production, distribution). Doing what is good and beneficial for society in general is just not one of them.</blockquote>


Oddly enough, innovation, mass production, and distribution is pretty beneficial for society in general. I don't comprehend how you can type that out without realizing how wrong you are. Everything from farm products, to water supplies, to fuels for heating, cooking, and transportation, to the internet you are currently using to read this; all made possible by corporations and companies, some of them were even funded by insurance companies. Trying to paint them as evil or untrustworthy is counter-productive, considering that the cases of them denying coverage are out-weighed 1000 to 1 by cases where they pay the bills with no questions.



But the absolutely best thing about private health care versus government health care is this: I can fire a private health care company and choose a new one. Where do I go to fire my government?</blockquote>


Because the government only pays for the healthcare you seek out, it is not the provider. You don't like your doctor, you fire him and go to someone else. There is just no insurance middleman to fire or not fire - that waste is eliminated.
 
[quote author="green_cactus" date=1252995076][quote author="Nude" date=1252992867][quote author="green_cactus" date=1252992104] Your likelihood of losing your coverage increases dramatically.</blockquote>


With the government plan, any version of it, I am 100% certain to lose my coverage. But rather than just address the rescission issue with some simple regulation or legislation, you want to tear down thew whole system and start again... with the government in charge.



No one is claiming the current system is perfect, but it can be fixed. The government does not need to be in charge of insurance or delivery or both... and yet that is the only solution being offered.



Edited to add:

Your chart does not say what you claim:

<span style="color: green;"><strong>Chart 1. Percent of Total Health Care Expenses Incurred by Different Percentiles of U.S. Population: 2002</strong></span>

<img src="http://www.ahrq.gov/research/ria19/ria19ch1.gif" alt="" /></blockquote>




Top 1% incurs 22% of all expenses. Top 5% incurs 49% of all expenses. If you are in the 95th percentile, your total expenses are < $11.5K.</blockquote>


Again, g_c, your link doesn't say what you claim it says:

<blockquote>... if you are up to 95th percentile of the insured pool, you are incurring a total of up to $11K in costs (worth a couple of years of premiums). This is the profitable portion of the business model and you are not going to be dumped by an insurance company - you are making financial sense to them.</blockquote>


The report is simply pointing out that the most expensive 5% of patients consume ~$11k per year in health care. The most profitable portion is the lower 50%, the least profitable is the top 1%, followed by the top 5%, etc. They make no claim about who gets dropped by insurance companies but they do point out that the majority of health care expenditures are incurred by those over 65... and already covered by Medicare.
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1252994061][quote author="Nude" date=1252987375]I can fire a private health care company and choose a new one. Where do I go to fire my government?</blockquote>


You can? Lucky you. We get one choice with my wife's employer. If she gets unemployed again we get no choice. Again, SEND ME THE BIG GUVMENT PLAN.</blockquote>
Enough of this false dichotomy, no_vas, because you have the same choices we have: eat the cost of the pre-existing conditions and buy private insurance to cover everything else. There is a difference between not wanting to pay for medication out of pocket and not being able to get health insurance. will it cover your wife's asthma? No, and it won't cover my wife's MS either, but that doesn't mean we can't go buy private insurance for other potential health costs. It does, however, require that we make hard choices in our financial lives.
 
[quote author="Nude" date=1252996772][quote author="green_cactus" date=1252995076][quote author="Nude" date=1252992867][quote author="green_cactus" date=1252992104] Your likelihood of losing your coverage increases dramatically.</blockquote>


With the government plan, any version of it, I am 100% certain to lose my coverage. But rather than just address the rescission issue with some simple regulation or legislation, you want to tear down thew whole system and start again... with the government in charge.



No one is claiming the current system is perfect, but it can be fixed. The government does not need to be in charge of insurance or delivery or both... and yet that is the only solution being offered.



Edited to add:

Your chart does not say what you claim:

<span style="color: green;"><strong>Chart 1. Percent of Total Health Care Expenses Incurred by Different Percentiles of U.S. Population: 2002</strong></span>

<img src="http://www.ahrq.gov/research/ria19/ria19ch1.gif" alt="" /></blockquote>




Top 1% incurs 22% of all expenses. Top 5% incurs 49% of all expenses. If you are in the 95th percentile, your total expenses are < $11.5K.</blockquote>


Again, g_c, your link doesn't say what you claim it says:

<blockquote>... if you are up to 95th percentile of the insured pool, you are incurring a total of up to $11K in costs (worth a couple of years of premiums). This is the profitable portion of the business model and you are not going to be dumped by an insurance company - you are making financial sense to them.</blockquote>


The report is simply pointing out that the most expensive 5% of patients consume ~$11k per year in health care. The most profitable portion is the lower 50%, the least profitable is the top 1%, followed by the top 5%, etc. They make no claim about who gets dropped by insurance companies but they do point out that the majority of health care expenditures are incurred by those over 65... and already covered by Medicare.</blockquote>


Sorry for the confusion - the claim on who gets dropped is a speculation that the insurance company wants to make money and succeed financially. The assumption is that it would drop only those who would make it lose money. This is not reflected on the chart and I apologize if that is what I made you believe. The chart <strong>only</strong> support the data points on what percentage of the population accounts for what percentage of the expenses.



Your reading of some of the data is incorrect, though. The 5% of patients consume <strong>>=</strong> $11K. That is the <strong>least</strong> amount of money and not some sort of average or approximate in that group.
 
[quote author="Nude" date=1252997288][quote author="no_vaseline" date=1252994061][quote author="Nude" date=1252987375]I can fire a private health care company and choose a new one. Where do I go to fire my government?</blockquote>


You can? Lucky you. We get one choice with my wife's employer. If she gets unemployed again we get no choice. Again, SEND ME THE BIG GUVMENT PLAN.</blockquote>
Enough of this false dichotomy, no_vas, because you have the same choices we have: eat the cost of the pre-existing conditions and buy private insurance to cover everything else. There is a difference between not wanting to pay for medication out of pocket and not being able to get health insurance. will it cover your wife's asthma? No, and it won't cover my wife's MS either, but that doesn't mean we can't go buy private insurance for other potential health costs. It does, however, require that we make hard choices in our financial lives.</blockquote>


What if you can't afford the medicine or the care without insurance? Should you just die or suffer? Should we just marginalize the poor and the sick? I refuse to the accept as an option in our country.
 
[quote author="Nude" date=1252997288]Enough of this false dichotomy, no_vas, because you have the same choices we have: eat the cost of the pre-existing conditions and buy private insurance to cover everything else.</blockquote>


You are sadly mistaken. I am denied coverage for my wife no matter what. I?m not allowed to exclude her pre-existing conditions ? I?m denied coverage outright and that?s the end of the story.



<blockquote> There is a difference between not wanting to pay for medication out of pocket and not being able to get health insurance.</blockquote>


I don't mind paying for health insurance. They won't sell it to my wife. Period. It's all out of my pocket if she becomes unemployed and COBRA isn't an option.



<blockquote>will it cover your wife's asthma?</blockquote>


No, but since they won't sell it to me, it doesn't matter.



<blockquote>No, and it won't cover my wife's MS either, but that doesn't mean we can't go buy private insurance for other potential health costs.</blockquote>


WTF are you talking about? They won't sell it to us AT ALL. CAN'T BUY. Not with an exclusion, not at all!



<blockquote>It does, however, require that we make hard choices in our financial lives.</blockquote>


If you can buy insurance for your wife, this must be a difference between states. I cannot bind coverage under any circumstances because of my wife?s pre-existing condition, with agreed exclusions, or otherwise. It's employment or hit the road kid.
 
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