Mortgage Forbearance

nosuchreality said:
The CDOs were in demand products.  Banks were in the business of packaging the product. 

It's like McDonald's selling Big Macs.  When the local franchisee figures out 90% of his business is the same 10% of people buying the large Big Mac meal everyday, he might think buying Pharmaceutical stock making Cholesterol and Diabetes meds is a good idea.

Taking Big Macs off the menu isn't the go to solution.

Not really...CDOs were created by the investment bankers and brokers...they were bought by investors because they were labelled AAA with incredible gains.  Basically zero risk and lots of profit. 
https://www.thebalance.com/cdos-cre...tions were created,the value of other assets.

Banks paid more commissions for higher risk loans and incentivized brokers over underwriters. 

Overpriced houses were in demand too before 2008...but yet homeowners/buyers were irresponsible to buy them while the banks/Wall Street were justified in buying and selling fundamentally flawed and highly risky investments that were intentionally mislabelled as safe?

The movie "The Big Short" was somewhat simplistic on the topic but it hit a lot of the key points.
 
Irvinecommuter said:
nosuchreality said:
I'm still stuck on banks screwed homeowners in 2008.

Yea CDOs are a bit slimy but there is a whole gravy train of people at that trough with the Government pumping the everybody should be allowed in the pool.

Its like the Robinhood app. Make it available to everybody with minimal requirements then complain when they can't met those minmal requirement due to wild volatility in their customer pool. Making RH !eet morecstringent requirements would mean they never opened.

Plenty of blame to go around in 2008...Banks basically abdicated their duties to its shareholders, investors, and community as a whole by ignoring risk and having zero brakes in the system. 

Feds opened the floodgates and refused to put any restrictions in place re lending.

Credit agencies...LOL.

Homeowners/buyers...many spent like drunken sailors but there were definitely plenty who were ignorant and got into mortgages that they should not have.

I would love to hear an agent speak about the housing market during 2004-2009. I would think they weren't the ones to be blamed since their job was to simply sell homes and call it a day. Financing wouldn't be something they deal with. Maybe I'm wrong? I was too young at that time to realize how things were done.

And from what I heard, the homebuyers were initially told they only need to pay the interest of the homes for the first couple of years? Then the principal would kick in. What doesn't make sense to me is why wouldn't a homebuyer ask what the principal would be once it is in effect? It kind of sounds too hard to believe that a buyer wouldn't be aware about this. Either the loan officer didn't tell the buyer or the buyer didn't think it was an issue?
 
The 2004 to 2008 run up was primarily due to a "no one cares" environment.

Realtors would ask "What's your score", not "Is this affordable for you?", Buyers would say "My lender says it's no problem for a minimum wage worker to buy this $600,000 home in Menifee because no one cares about qualifying any more".

Borrowers would ask "What income should I put on the application" and Lenders would say "Put whatever is needed to qualify. No one cares.".

Lenders would tell borrowers that an Option ARM might "go negative" and the balance might rise. Homeowners would say "Meh, appreciation will take care of that, besides, no one cares.... I can always refinance..." 

Absolutely everyone knew what was going on. Don't believe the stories about how "I was tricked" or "I wasn't told about X, Y, or Z" and "those big banks were to blame". It was willful ignorance by all parties in the transaction. Lenders had to provide to customers multiple disclosures for their loan terms with all the potential problems laid out in black and white. There were 3 days to exercise a borrower's right to cancel a refinance giving plenty of time to review what they were getting into. Closing documents were in the low 100 pages in length to consider before funding, yet none were read. To think that a $4,000 per month income can support a $3,000 payment alone was a huge red flag for home buyer or refinance client in the day. Did that stop anyone? Hardly - because no one cared enough to question why the application says $14,000 of income when it really was $4,000, or how it was possible to get a $1,000 mortgage payment for a $1,000,000 loan amount.

The worst part of that whole era from my perspective was the persistent chant by lenders, realtors, and borrowers: "You can always refinance out of it". No... Sorry to say, but you cannot. Once the music stopped, there weren't enough chairs to park ones behind on. Everything deconstructed from there.  What's different today is the real estate industry is too big to fail. Forbearances are one example, but so are foreclosure and eviction moratoriums. In 2007-2011, consequences for poor judgement were real. Today, the consequences for lack of planning and saving have become the burden now of the Federal Government, and the bill just will never come due.

In many ways the forbearance and eviction moratoriums were the right response but solely within the context of the Pandemic. With employment in a freefall and incomes vanishing due only to an outside event not caused by the individual, the last thing American society needed was a tsunami of newly unhoused people. Now that American society has accepted forbearance and moratoriums as "normal", paying bills is becoming less and less of an obligation and more like a long term can kicking. Just look at what has been done with Student Loans (an ongoing moratorium) and what's ahead (outright forgiveness of debt).

Just as in 2007 when the music ran out and seating became scarce for those dancing throughout those "good times", eventually the music being played today will stop. What then? We'll see....
 
Soylent Green Is People said:
The 2004 to 2008 run up was primarily due to a "no one cares" environment.

Realtors would ask "What's your score", not "Is this affordable for you?", Buyers would say "My lender says it's no problem for a minimum wage worker to buy this $600,000 home in Menifee because no one cares about qualifying any more".

Borrowers would ask "What income should I put on the application" and Lenders would say "Put whatever is needed to qualify. No one cares.".

Lenders would tell borrowers that an Option ARM might "go negative" and the balance might rise. Homeowners would say "Meh, appreciation will take care of that, besides, no one cares.... I can always refinance..." 

Absolutely everyone knew what was going on. Don't believe the stories about how "I was tricked" or "I wasn't told about X, Y, or Z" and "those big banks were to blame". It was willful ignorance by all parties in the transaction. Lenders had to provide to customers multiple disclosures for their loan terms with all the potential problems laid out in black and white. There were 3 days to exercise a borrower's right to cancel a refinance giving plenty of time to review what they were getting into. Closing documents were in the low 100 pages in length to consider before funding, yet none were read. To think that a $4,000 per month income can support a $3,000 payment alone was a huge red flag for home buyer or refinance client in the day. Did that stop anyone? Hardly - because no one cared enough to question why the application says $14,000 of income when it really was $4,000, or how it was possible to get a $1,000 mortgage payment for a $1,000,000 loan amount.

The worst part of that whole era from my perspective was the persistent chant by lenders, realtors, and borrowers: "You can always refinance out of it". No... Sorry to say, but you cannot. Once the music stopped, there weren't enough chairs to park ones behind on. Everything deconstructed from there.  What's different today is the real estate industry is too big to fail. Forbearances are one example, but so are foreclosure and eviction moratoriums. In 2007-2011, consequences for poor judgement were real. Today, the consequences for lack of planning and saving have become the burden now of the Federal Government, and the bill just will never come due.

In many ways the forbearance and eviction moratoriums were the right response but solely within the context of the Pandemic. With employment in a freefall and incomes vanishing due only to an outside event not caused by the individual, the last thing American society needed was a tsunami of newly unhoused people. Now that American society has accepted forbearance and moratoriums as "normal", paying bills is becoming less and less of an obligation and more like a long term can kicking. Just look at what has been done with Student Loans (an ongoing moratorium) and what's ahead (outright forgiveness of debt).

Just as in 2007 when the music ran out and seating became scarce for those dancing throughout those "good times", eventually the music being played today will stop. What then? We'll see....

Absolutely...plenty of blame to go around.  Most HO knew what they were doing and ignored al the warning signs but that's not different than any other bubble.  People trading in stock market don't read the warnings on their portfolio either.

The one caveat I would add is that there was absolutely predatory lending going on...especially with minorities.  There are plenty of stories that brokers would put borrowers into ARM loans even though they qualified for fixed rate loans because the brokers got more fees/commission for the ARM loans.  Add on the language barriers and lack of knowledge re laws...there were definitely victims. 

That, however, was the exception...most HOs knew or should have known but did not care or ignored because they got to live a better lifestyle.
 
Ageed, everything was responsible for what happened with the real estate crash 2007-2010.  HOs looked away and didn't ask about what they signed beceause they thought that homes would keep appreciating 10% per year.  Today, loans are fully underwritten and the buyers are stronger and more of them.  The significant demand for homes is driving the low inventory that we are seeing.
 
USCTrojanCPA said:
Ageed, everything was responsible for what happened with the real estate crash 2007-2010.  HOs looked away and didn't ask about what they signed beceause they thought that homes would keep appreciating 10% per year.  Today, loans are fully underwritten and the buyers are stronger and more of them.  The significant demand for homes is driving the low inventory that we are seeing.

They almost said the same thing before the previous crash. But this time we have high unemployment, a pandemic, and people not paying their rent or mortgages. (Free rent)

(This is not investment advice)
 
Are you guys saying the last crash was pretty predictable? Or are you saying everyone felt something was just off, not necessarily predicting the particular housing crash? Because we're definitely feeling something is off, don't you think? Or is everyone feeling things are pretty fine?

(This is not investment advice)
 
10 yrs ago I use to care about deficits and borrowing.  However, these days I believe printing money to kick the can down the road is the best idea we got.  So what if we print another 1.9 trillion dollars for COVID relief and $1,400 stimulus checks?

Shits gonna get more expensive, and if shit falls apart, we print more.

That's why there is no crash coming.


The lesson we learned from the 2009 crash was to print hard and print early...then you get atleast a decade of rising prices.


When the pandemic hit, did the government wait to do the 2+ trillion hero's act?  No, they did that within a month.
 
All financial crashes are predictable. Frenzied buying and greed in the pursuit of money (not value) are some of the indicators to watch. From the Dutch "Tulip Mania", the 1929's stock market crash, the "irrational exuberance" of the dot-com bubble, to the 2004-2007 run up in housing prices - panic buying and rapid price rises never end well for anyone involved in the run up. That's why it's been said by others to "buy when there is blood in the streets" Most real money was made in the aftermath of these crashes.

Yes,  there is currently something off - be it FANG stock prices, or someone believing this home is worth well over a half million dollars -https://www.redfin.com/CA/Los-Angeles/620-E-83rd-St-90001/home/7288795(those school ratings... YOW)

As Zubs correctly notes, we will print more, but at some time paper and ink will run dry.
 
We should talk about how much ink is left at the FED to keep interest rates low, and money cheap.  Because it all comes down to....
How much more can we print?
 
zubs said:
We should talk about how much ink is left at the FED to keep interest rates low, and money cheap.  Because it all comes down to....
How much more can we print?

There's no limit because we aren't the only ones with the digital printing press running...look at the EU and Japan.  I still don't get how longer term interest rates can be negative...that's "bizzaro world" stuff in my mind. At some point in the US, we may see negative interest rates in our lifetime if we get another shock to the economy.
 
The money printing will continue for a very long time. Austerity is very unpopular and a tough sell politically.

Japan is demonstrating that a large economy can survive a 250% debt to GDP ratio. We are just over 100%.

For those who have not, it's time to get into cryto.

If you bought $25 worth of bitcoin 10 years ago, it's now enough to buy you a 1.2 million Irvine home.
 
Kenkoko said:
The money printing will continue for a very long time. Austerity is very unpopular and a tough sell politically.

Japan is demonstrating that a large economy can survive a 250% debt to GDP ratio. We are just over 100%.

For those who have not, it's time to get into cryto.

If you bought $25 worth of bitcoin 10 years ago, it's now enough to buy you a 1.2 million Irvine home.

It's a good time to buy any kinds of non-depreciating assets when the printing press is going 24/7.  Debt...it's a hell of a drug.  haha
 
Kenkoko said:
The money printing will continue for a very long time. Austerity is very unpopular and a tough sell politically.

Japan is demonstrating that a large economy can survive a 250% debt to GDP ratio. We are just over 100%.

For those who have not, it's time to get into cryto.

If you bought $25 worth of bitcoin 10 years ago, it's now enough to buy you a 1.2 million Irvine home.

But money printing would not solve the potential housing crisis. I hear people bragging living rent free.
 
eyephone said:
Kenkoko said:
The money printing will continue for a very long time. Austerity is very unpopular and a tough sell politically.

Japan is demonstrating that a large economy can survive a 250% debt to GDP ratio. We are just over 100%.

For those who have not, it's time to get into cryto.

If you bought $25 worth of bitcoin 10 years ago, it's now enough to buy you a 1.2 million Irvine home.

But money printing would not solve the potential housing crisis. I hear people bragging living rent free.

Agree that money printing isn't going to solve the potential housing crisis.

Or any crisis frankly - if we keep funneling majority of the money printed towards big corporations and institutions. We've been following the the top down / trickle down economics for too long and it doesn't work for majority of the people.

Regarding housing specifically, it'd depend on where you live.

Home prices and rents in places like New York City and parts of the mid west are down significantly. Suburbs in good weather regions, like Irvine, are the opposite. This pandemic and remote work will significantly change things up.

The bigger point is, it's futile to fight / hate money printing. It's going to happen. Austerity is not happening in the US whether D or R is in control. Money printing is the popular & easy way out. It's the only feasible political outcome.

 
now! is a good time to buy....because cash is trash.

If you think the government has the political will to raise interest rates and curb the printing, then go ahead and wait.
The Dems sure are using the pandemic to great effect.


On a side note, I'm raising my prices 10% to my customers...and they know it and will take it because shit's getting expensive.
I'm in construction.
 
zubs said:
now! is a good time to buy....because cash is trash.

If you think the government has the political will to raise interest rates and curb the printing, then go ahead and wait.
The Dems sure are using the pandemic to great effect.


On a side note, I'm raising my prices 10% to my customers...and they know it and will take it because shit's getting expensive.
I'm in construction.

I'm kinda dreading getting quotes for my landscaping project. 
 
Soylent Green Is People said:
All financial crashes are predictable. Frenzied buying and greed in the pursuit of money (not value) are some of the indicators to watch. From the Dutch "Tulip Mania", the 1929's stock market crash, the "irrational exuberance" of the dot-com bubble, to the 2004-2007 run up in housing prices - panic buying and rapid price rises never end well for anyone involved in the run up. That's why it's been said by others to "buy when there is blood in the streets" Most real money was made in the aftermath of these crashes.

Yes,  there is currently something off - be it FANG stock prices, or someone believing this home is worth well over a half million dollars -https://www.redfin.com/CA/Los-Angeles/620-E-83rd-St-90001/home/7288795(those school ratings... YOW)

As Zubs correctly notes, we will print more, but at some time paper and ink will run dry.

This particular home in LA is rather a decent looking home on a decent looking street. Google street view does much more justice than the redfin pic. Asking price will be more or less comparable to Irvine home of the same sieze, may be smaller lot. If schools are no concern to you but shorter commute to LA is, then nothing wrong with this home at this price.
 
I like 1930's homes and I'm sure it's grand inside. Having worked at a financial center about 2.5 miles from this house, trust me when I tell you that it's really  a significantly impacted area.  Window bars say one thing - there are some people in Irvine who have them - but then add the schools, the constant overhead flights coming in to LAX, very narrow, broken up streets, etc.

$650k is a gigantic stretch when similar homes in the area are in the upper 4's to mid 5's. Most of those in the upper end of pricing are 2-4 unit properties. This one "seen from space" may have an ADU. Hard to tell as there isn't enough in the description online. If it is multi-family then the price is correct  If the seller gets $650k - great for them - but it would take a home buyer of considerable patience to see an ROI of note.
 
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