HOLY SMOKES : Did i read this right? Dow below 10,000 S&P;1,100 Nasdaq 1500. Is this possible by October?

[jbenko_IHB]

BTW, Ipo/Scootchy is from the 909. That alone is making fun of him. :cheese:

Not sure I get the 909 phrase.

But I understand fully what you mean. I have taken things out of context and probably slipped and said somethings that I really could have said differently.

For that, I'm going to apologize to acmpe, ipo, muzie and yourself.

I will try to take a breather next time and walk away before I post, because I don't want an argumentative blog either.

BV

 

[graphrix_IHB]

BTW, Ipo/Scootchy is from the 909. That alone is making fun of him. :cheese:

Not sure I get the 909 phrase.

But I understand fully what you mean. I have taken things out of context and probably slipped and said somethings that I really could have said differently.

For that, I'm going to apologize to acmpe, ipo, muzie and yourself.

I will try to take a breather next time and walk away before I post, because I don't want an argumentative blog either.

BV

Thank you. This really could be one of the best threads ever with the info everyone provides.

909 is the area code for the inland empire, Scootch was ipo's nickname when he lived there, and I like to give him a hard time. It's all out of good fun, and he knows I respect him, even if it took a while. But that is a prize example of two people who have butted heads but now have come together as staples of IHB. Good thing the only picture of mine he has is not of my face, otherwise gawd knows what he would photoshop it onto.

 

[jbenko_IHB]

Good thing the only picture of mine he has is not of my face, otherwise gawd knows what he would photoshop it onto

LOL. I won't even ask of what and why he has it.

Anyway, time to catch up to my Tina Fey SNL videos and off to bed.

 

[muzie_IHB]

Just curious. Is there anyone who thinks that naked shorting is NOT a stock manipulation tactic used by hedge funds? I am not trying to start an argument, nor will I try to convince anyone of anything. I just want to know.

awgee Posted: 23 September 2008 07:03 AM [ Thanks! ] [ Report ] [ Ignore ] [ # 191 ]

Custom Estate

Total Posts: 3167

Joined 2007-05-01 “If you want to be popular and poor, spend a lot of time and energy talking about how markets are manipulated. If you want to be rich, figure out how to to measure the psychology of investors.”

Bob Moriarty

Hmmm... what happened to that statement?

That is pathetic if you are insinuating that my one question is spending a lot of time and energy about how markets are manipulated. Your portfolio must be taking quite a beating to be lashing out at someone asking an innocent question.

I aplogize, I wasn't lashing out at all if that's what it looked like. I was merely pointing out your previous posting which suggested asking the question you had just asked was a pointless exercise, so I was confused why you did.

 

[awgee_IHB]

Just curious. Is there anyone who thinks that naked shorting is NOT a stock manipulation tactic used by hedge funds? I am not trying to start an argument, nor will I try to convince anyone of anything. I just want to know.

awgee Posted: 23 September 2008 07:03 AM [ Thanks! ] [ Report ] [ Ignore ] [ # 191 ]

Custom Estate

Total Posts: 3167

Joined 2007-05-01 “If you want to be popular and poor, spend a lot of time and energy talking about how markets are manipulated. If you want to be rich, figure out how to to measure the psychology of investors.”

Bob Moriarty

Hmmm... what happened to that statement?

That is pathetic if you are insinuating that my one question is spending a lot of time and energy about how markets are manipulated. Your portfolio must be taking quite a beating to be lashing out at someone asking an innocent question.

I aplogize, I wasn't lashing out at all if that's what it looked like. I was merely pointing out your previous posting which suggested asking the question you had just asked was a pointless exercise, so I was confused why you did.

Not much of an apology. More of the same put down. Again, I asked one question. The quote references, "spend a lot of time and energy talking about how markets are manipulated." And you continue to equate the two. I doubt if you are confused, just a bit pissed.

 

[muzie_IHB]

Suppose I could compile enough data so that I could write a book which explained why the market always went up during a full moon. If enough people read it and BELIEVED it, then the market WOULD go up during a full moon. Cup-n-handle, head-n-shoulders, double bottom, double top, all 100% fabricated cult followings that command legions. No basis in reality.

it's like trying to predict the lottery or the outcome of a slot machine. The mere concept is absurd, but not if you can get enough people to play the same way. How many times have we seen GS take the exact opposite position of what one of their analysts are predicting? How can their not be manipulation when you have Rating Agencies, Investment Banks, and Regulators in collusion together? How can there not be manipulation when lobbyists are allowed to exist???

IMO, the only way to maintain your wealth/status is through luck or control, and control is expressed through manipulation. Our freaking treasury secretary was previously the CEO of Goldman Sachs. In 1999 GS could have been wiped out by being on the wrong side of gold, so Gordon Browne of England flooded the market with gold. He's now the Prime Minister of the UK. Loyd Blankfein was the ONLY CEO present during the Federal discussions of the AIG bailout. Was this because only GS was counterparty to AIG's swaps, or because Paulson still has hundreds of millions in GS stock and stock options???

Paulson had to sell all of his GS assets when he came on as Treasury.

But of course now I've read plenty of rumors that he did this on purpose, since he sold his GS stocks and options near the top.

See, that's the thing with conspirationists (not you specifically). You can't win - there's always a way to twist things through so they're seen with malicious intent.

 

[muzie_IHB]

Just curious. Is there anyone who thinks that naked shorting is NOT a stock manipulation tactic used by hedge funds? I am not trying to start an argument, nor will I try to convince anyone of anything. I just want to know.

awgee Posted: 23 September 2008 07:03 AM [ Thanks! ] [ Report ] [ Ignore ] [ # 191 ]

Custom Estate

Total Posts: 3167

Joined 2007-05-01 “If you want to be popular and poor, spend a lot of time and energy talking about how markets are manipulated. If you want to be rich, figure out how to to measure the psychology of investors.”

Bob Moriarty

Hmmm... what happened to that statement?

That is pathetic if you are insinuating that my one question is spending a lot of time and energy about how markets are manipulated. Your portfolio must be taking quite a beating to be lashing out at someone asking an innocent question.

I aplogize, I wasn't lashing out at all if that's what it looked like. I was merely pointing out your previous posting which suggested asking the question you had just asked was a pointless exercise, so I was confused why you did.

Not much of an apology. More of the same put down. Again, I asked one question. The quote references, "spend a lot of time and energy talking about how markets are manipulated." And you continue to equate the two. I doubt if you are confused, just a bit pissed.

Hmm, no, you're reading more into my meaning than what I said. There was nothing personal.

I'm not sure what you expect here. It was a sincere apology, and I am genuinely puzzled why you're taking it this way. This is the internet, no body language possible, so I can't do much more than this.

I'm doing the posts I do because I view it as the only way to deal with the current market turmoil. You could say it is a defense mechanism because when I see posts about conspiration theories, the great depression, and how stocks are not even tied to companies anymore, I realize all this language entices is to just scream, pull my hair out and sell everything (ok being overdramatic here). In the past, when I did this I ended up hurting myself. Perception becomes reality. There's a grain of truth in what Blackvault says, and other people. The difference comes when it becomes your dominant worldview, which seems to be Blackvault's case. I'm mostly in cash but negativism and scepticism has become so prevalent everywhere I'm still worried. A little balance on the other side would be nice for a change.

Either way, just trying to explain where I'm coming from.

 

[ipoplaya_IHB]

otherwise gawd knows what he would photoshop it onto.

Oh your time will come Nutter-Boy... It will come... I still owe you big for the invasion of my condo.

 

[acpme_IHB]

final thoughts on the subject after thinking about it overnight...

i see now where bv is coming from and in that sense, sure, market manipulation happens. but i realize we're arguing two diff things, or the same thing but on different scales.

i framed my argument on the question of whether market manipulation has any impact on the mkt as a whole -- whether the avg investor should be worried, esp after calgal noted her concern. the academic work on market manipulation, shorting (naked or not), and the such usually concludes that the fears are unfounded. short-term pricing anamolies happen, yes, even in large cap companies. like graphrix said, they're just price movements. and yes, with enough capital you might move the price yourself although mkt theory would say you can't do so profitably. and practicality would say you can't do it sustainably, intentionally, and legally before you get busted, blow up your fund, or both.

yes, some college kid on the motley fool forums can pump-n-dump a little known stock with not a lot of money. it does and has happened, but even offenses that small get caught and prosecuted. and yes, there are large funds out there that are probably operating and trading illegally. but certainly not to the extent where we can suspect far-flung, pervasive market manipulation by a hedge fund community -- comprised of thousands of funds managing trillions of dollars -- that's already being scrutinized with a watchful eye.

my point was always that this really isn't widespread enough to attract the worry of people who have money sitting in your typical stock portofolio or mutual funds, or even those who dabble in the occasional trade.

sorry the blew up like this. nothing personal. just a debate about a controversial subject, that's all.

 

[CalGal_IHB]

I've learned a lot from all your posts. Thanks.

When I made that comment, I was thinking about one stock in particular and not the entire market.

As an example, before all this market volatility. There have been stocks in the past that have dropped 70% or more in hours.

Wouldn't this be large hedge funds who drop all their shares, or is it all the stop orders? When a stock starts going down, it can tank! That's why I'm so afraid of gold these days. I've seen it tank in the past, so I'm afraid it will again. I know there are people who talk about the fundamentals, etc, but things these days don't seem to be working like they "should."

Thanks again for all your posts.

 

[acpme_IHB]

ok i misunderstood your comment then. nevertheless, i would say when looking at any one particular asset, being subject to huge volatility simply goes with the territory. it's extremely difficult, not to mention presumptuous, to assume we can 1) pinpoint the cause, and 2) place blame (which also implies we already taken into acct all information in the mkt and concluded the price drop is unwarranted).

if the price drop is unwarranted (and i'm assuming this is a fairly liquid, widely-traded stock) there would be no shortage of buyers when the stock was down 5, 10, 15, 25%... it should never reach -70%... unless the whole mkt clearly decided that day they wanted no part of that company. and we've seen that happen almost daily. and rebounds happen because rumors get debunked, better news comes out, or people simply change their minds. i do agree with BV and LM that so much of it is psychology -- just not convinced it's deliberate.

 

[jbenko_IHB]

Misunderstandings happen and I misunderstood you too acmpe. I didn't realize you were talking about the market as a whole, and 100% agreed nobody has that much financial power to move the whole market so the average joe doesn't have to worry.

As a day trader though, it affects me as there are plenty of times i'm in a stock just for a mere 5 minutes. A quick in and out when I spot an opportunity. I make my gains in little increments. Sure I have some stocks that I hold on a longer term, but a chunk comes in quick transactions.

A grand example I can think of is last week or so when Goldman droped to mid 80s for about a 4 minute period and bouncing right back up to low 100s. I only managed to gib 45 or so shares at that price but it was a quick 15 dollar profit.

But once again, the average joe doesn't have to worry.

And again, apologies for blowing it up as well.

EDIT: I do have to say thought that lately our government likes to "manipulate" or tamper with the markets instead of letting things play out.

 

[CalGal_IHB]

I can see how misunderstandings happen on a blog. My husband refuses to comment on blogs because he said he gets too frustrated when his words get taken the wrong way and sometimes it's difficult to express your entire thought process in a paragraph. It's too bad because I think he would add a lot of value to the blog.

 

[BLUE FIRE_IHB]

Wow, DOW almost down to 8500. The movement we have seen in the last month is absolutely spectacular (not in a happy way, of course). Have we even seen widespread panic yet....this could TRULY get ugly. Speechless.

 

[CalGal_IHB]

Wow, DOW almost down to 8500. The movement we have seen in the last month is absolutely spectacular (not in a happy way, of course). Have we even seen widespread panic yet....this could TRULY get ugly. Speechless.

:shut: I purposely didn't turn on the TV to find out what the DOW was doing. :shut:

J/K

 

[BLUE FIRE_IHB]

Wow, DOW almost down to 8500. The movement we have seen in the last month is absolutely spectacular (not in a happy way, of course). Have we even seen widespread panic yet....this could TRULY get ugly. Speechless.

:shut: I purposely didn't turn on the TV to find out what the DOW was doing. :shut:

J/K

Sorry Cal

 

[skek_IHB]

.

 

[jbenko_IHB]

I won't even comment how it makes me feel when the market panics and the DOW has a meltdown.

 

[ipoplaya_IHB]

I won't even comment how it makes me feel when the market panics and the DOW has a meltdown.

Must have been market manipulation today!

I couldn't resist, sorry...

 

[jbenko_IHB]

Lol. I saw it coming. It's all good.

Btw. Does anybody know if there is a good source that allows me to download a data dump of financial data on stocks?

I used to have this one website that pretty much gave any kind of statistic and financial information possible on all stocks in the world, but it has been taken down and never brought back up.

I really need something to populate my models, and I really hate to think I have to pay some company to get that information considering the frequency I need it and especially since it was free.