Great Park & El Toro Base / Areas of Concern

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Mpark408

New member
Hi Everyone,

I?m potentially moving to the area and I wanted to see if any experts or someone who knows about this could chime in.
Essentially, my entire question surrounds the former El Toro Marine Base (AKA ?MCAS El Toro? but hereafter referred to as ETMB) which is now Great Park and the level of reasonable concern one should have with newborns in the area.  I?m currently expecting and have an opportunity to buy a home within the vicinity.  Here?s a few concerns that I have:
1) ETMB was a base built and opened in 1943 and then decommissioned in 1999 (See Picture #ELTORONOW).  During the time in which the base was operational, many regulations that restricted the use of certain materials and handling of such was either non-existent or not as stringent as they are today.
2) Jet fuel was mishandled here as again, regulations were lax.  Dumping of this fuel into the ground caused for contamination of the water (~100-150ft below ground soil).
    A) JP-4, JP-7 are various types of jet fuel and they contain things like lead, benzene and other chemicals.  Acute exposure to JP-N type fuels have been linked to central nervous system issues and there are effects with low dosage exposure in test animals as well such as cell changes in the liver, decreased low T-cell count and other. 
3) A solvent used for cleaning contained trichloroethylene, or TCE.  This has also seeped into the ground water due to lax regulations during the base?s active operation.  This contamination has reached as far as west of the 133 and the 5 as of 2018 (See Picture #PLUME)
    A) TCE is a known carcinogen that causes cancer and skin issues, namely, dermatitis.  It also effects the body?s central nervous system, kidneys, and is toxic if inhaled.
    B) About TCE Link https://www.health.state.mn.us/communities/environment/hazardous/topics/tce.html#health
          a) Here?s an article from the City of Irvine stating how they filter that water and use it for irrigation.  My wife had recalled that when she was walking around Irvine she saw signs stating not to drink the water.  I?m thinking this is the water from ETMB. https://www.cityofirvine.org/community-development/water-quality
    A) A few concerns:
          a) Note that the EPA does not regulate private wells, only public ones.  If there are any farmers in the Irvine area using their own water supply then I?m hoping that water is up to EPA standards
          c) If this water is being used for irrigation then I?m wondering if our kid(s), dogs, etc., are able to play in the grass without risk for exposure.  Again, this isn?t drinking water but irrigation water so I?m not sure if this is protected by EPA standards.
          b) Where else is this water being used?
4) There were multiple locations used as landfills on the base on the northeast quadrant of the base.  I haven?t done the research regarding dumping laws for military bases from the 1940s-90s but I?m wondering about the regulations against battery disposal, lead based chemicals, etc., if any (See Picture #HAZARDOUSSITES & #LANDFILL).
    A) EPA states that all drinking water in Irvine is at normal levels of lead, benzene, etc., and is safe to drink.
    B) I also checked the EPA clean up site https://ordspub.epa.gov/ords/cimc/f?p=CIMC:MAP:0::NO::P71_IDSEARCH:SF_SITE_ID|0902770 and it looks like the northeast quadrant is still on the list for clean-up and is listed as a superfund site (See picture #SUPERFUND)
5) In the southwest quadrant of the base, paint with the ingredient Radium was wrongfully used on for planes within a hangar located here (See Picture #HAZARDOUSSITES & #RADIUMPLANTROOM). 
    A) LA Times article https://www.latimes.com/socal/daily-pilot/entertainment/story/2021-04-20/a-litany-of-diseases-veterans-point-to-their-service-at-el-toro-base-had-toxic-consequences regarding soldier working in hangar 296
    B) I have surface level understanding of radiation
          a) Decay and volatility of isotopes
              ?  Alpha, Beta, Gamma rays (Ra-226 produces all of these)
              ?  Half-life (Half-life is approximately 1,600 years for Ra-226)
          b)What I don?t understand however is the effect of gamma ray producing elements after the physical removal of them from the general vicinity. Can anyone chime in here?

Thank you in advance!

#ELTORONOW
JQ35mF.jpg

?
#HAZARDOUSSITES
VUmeER.jpg


#RADIUMPLANTROOM
KEej7w.jpg

 
#LANDFILL
O7eTlE.jpg

 
#PLUME
vmy2KL.jpg

?
#SUPERFUND
8kfGtT.jpg


References:
1) Irvine Water District ? Water Quality Report 2021
    a.  https://www.irwd.com/images/pdf/services/irwd_2021_wqr_fini.pdf
2) EPA: How to Read a Water Quality Report
    a.  https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2018-02/documents/epa-ogwdw-ccr-infographic-v5_508.pdf
3) General Irvine Water Quality
    a.  https://www.cityofirvine.org/community-development/water-quality
4) MCAS El Toro ? Radiological Assessment
    a.  https://www.navfac.navy.mil/niris/SOUTHWEST/EL_TORO_MCAS/M60050_000449.PDF
5) Irvine Water Plume Assessment
    a.  https://www.irwd.com/images/pdf/construction/el_toro_remediation_map_2018.pdf
6) EPA Website for the El Toro Superfund Site
    a.  https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/cursites/csitinfo.cfm?id=0902770
7) EPA Website for EL Toro list of Contaminants
    a.  https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/SiteProfiles/index.cfm?fuseaction=second.contams&id=0902770
8) MCAS El Toro ? Master Plan (Site assessment and unofficial planning)
    a.  https://www.navfac.navy.mil/niris/SOUTHWEST/EL_TORO_MCAS/M60050_000706_0001.PDF

 
fatduck said:
im gonna go out on a limb and say you would not be happy living in great park
Click to expand...

If you have this level of concern then you will never be satisfied or happy with any answer we can give you about the GP area. I would pick another area to buy a home.
 
**** Welcome back Belly!****
Environmental thread part 5? lol

Mpark408 said:
Hi Everyone,

I?m potentially moving to the area and I wanted to see if any experts or someone who knows about this could chime in.
Essentially, my entire question surrounds the former El Toro Marine Base (AKA ?MCAS El Toro? but hereafter referred to as ETMB) which is now Great Park and the level of reasonable concern one should have with newborns in the area.  I?m currently expecting and have an opportunity to buy a home within the vicinity.  Here?s a few concerns that I have:
1) ETMB was a base built and opened in 1943 and then decommissioned in 1999 (See Picture #ELTORONOW).  During the time in which the base was operational, many regulations that restricted the use of certain materials and handling of such was either non-existent or not as stringent as they are today.
2) Jet fuel was mishandled here as again, regulations were lax.  Dumping of this fuel into the ground caused for contamination of the water (~100-150ft below ground soil).
    A) JP-4, JP-7 are various types of jet fuel and they contain things like lead, benzene and other chemicals.  Acute exposure to JP-N type fuels have been linked to central nervous system issues and there are effects with low dosage exposure in test animals as well such as cell changes in the liver, decreased low T-cell count and other. 
3) A solvent used for cleaning contained trichloroethylene, or TCE.  This has also seeped into the ground water due to lax regulations during the base?s active operation.  This contamination has reached as far as west of the 133 and the 5 as of 2018 (See Picture #PLUME)
    A) TCE is a known carcinogen that causes cancer and skin issues, namely, dermatitis.  It also effects the body?s central nervous system, kidneys, and is toxic if inhaled.
    B) About TCE Link https://www.health.state.mn.us/communities/environment/hazardous/topics/tce.html#health
          a) Here?s an article from the City of Irvine stating how they filter that water and use it for irrigation.  My wife had recalled that when she was walking around Irvine she saw signs stating not to drink the water.  I?m thinking this is the water from ETMB. https://www.cityofirvine.org/community-development/water-quality
    A) A few concerns:
          a) Note that the EPA does not regulate private wells, only public ones.  If there are any farmers in the Irvine area using their own water supply then I?m hoping that water is up to EPA standards
          c) If this water is being used for irrigation then I?m wondering if our kid(s), dogs, etc., are able to play in the grass without risk for exposure.  Again, this isn?t drinking water but irrigation water so I?m not sure if this is protected by EPA standards.
          b) Where else is this water being used?
4) There were multiple locations used as landfills on the base on the northeast quadrant of the base.  I haven?t done the research regarding dumping laws for military bases from the 1940s-90s but I?m wondering about the regulations against battery disposal, lead based chemicals, etc., if any (See Picture #HAZARDOUSSITES & #LANDFILL).
    A) EPA states that all drinking water in Irvine is at normal levels of lead, benzene, etc., and is safe to drink.
    B) I also checked the EPA clean up site https://ordspub.epa.gov/ords/cimc/f?p=CIMC:MAP:0::NO::P71_IDSEARCH:SF_SITE_ID|0902770 and it looks like the northeast quadrant is still on the list for clean-up and is listed as a superfund site (See picture #SUPERFUND)
5) In the southwest quadrant of the base, paint with the ingredient Radium was wrongfully used on for planes within a hangar located here (See Picture #HAZARDOUSSITES & #RADIUMPLANTROOM). 
    A) LA Times article https://www.latimes.com/socal/daily-pilot/entertainment/story/2021-04-20/a-litany-of-diseases-veterans-point-to-their-service-at-el-toro-base-had-toxic-consequences regarding soldier working in hangar 296
    B) I have surface level understanding of radiation
          a) Decay and volatility of isotopes
              ?  Alpha, Beta, Gamma rays (Ra-226 produces all of these)
              ?  Half-life (Half-life is approximately 1,600 years for Ra-226)
          b)What I don?t understand however is the effect of gamma ray producing elements after the physical removal of them from the general vicinity. Can anyone chime in here?

Thank you in advance!

#ELTORONOW
JQ35mF.jpg

?
#HAZARDOUSSITES
VUmeER.jpg


#RADIUMPLANTROOM
KEej7w.jpg

 
#LANDFILL
O7eTlE.jpg

 
#PLUME
vmy2KL.jpg

?
#SUPERFUND
8kfGtT.jpg


References:
1) Irvine Water District ? Water Quality Report 2021
    a.  https://www.irwd.com/images/pdf/services/irwd_2021_wqr_fini.pdf
2) EPA: How to Read a Water Quality Report
    a.  https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2018-02/documents/epa-ogwdw-ccr-infographic-v5_508.pdf
3) General Irvine Water Quality
    a.  https://www.cityofirvine.org/community-development/water-quality
4) MCAS El Toro ? Radiological Assessment
    a.  https://www.navfac.navy.mil/niris/SOUTHWEST/EL_TORO_MCAS/M60050_000449.PDF
5) Irvine Water Plume Assessment
    a.  https://www.irwd.com/images/pdf/construction/el_toro_remediation_map_2018.pdf
6) EPA Website for the El Toro Superfund Site
    a.  https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/cursites/csitinfo.cfm?id=0902770
7) EPA Website for EL Toro list of Contaminants
    a.  https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/SiteProfiles/index.cfm?fuseaction=second.contams&id=0902770
8) MCAS El Toro ? Master Plan (Site assessment and unofficial planning)
    a.  https://www.navfac.navy.mil/niris/SOUTHWEST/EL_TORO_MCAS/M60050_000706_0001.PDF
Click to expand...
 
Cares said:
fatduck said:
im gonna go out on a limb and say you would not be happy living in great park
Click to expand...

If you have this level of concern then you will never be satisfied or happy with any answer we can give you about the GP area. I would pick another area to buy a home.
Click to expand...

I wouldn?t necessarily say that.  I?m curious to know about the general radius of the radiation coming from the southwest section of Great Park, if any.  If there is any radiation then I?ll just avoid Great Park instead of metaphorically throwing the baby out with the bath water.
 
TestingIrvine said:
You?re making a decision based on advice on TI?
You already know what the answer is.
Click to expand...

I really don?t know - I?m just curious to know what people think. Hopefully they can back with some references.
 
I feel like OP did more research than most of us on GP. If you have that much doubts and concerns, maybe it?s better you look elsewhere. The property taxes at 1.8-1.9% with no expiration is already a deterrent for a lot of folks.
 
Or is it keeping the rif-rafter out?  :) :) :)

If you on a marginalize able to afford it, you won't last with prop taxes in Irvine. Or Tustin newer better hoods.
 
Wow, this is the most thorough summary of the Great Park pollution issue I've ever read. Thanks for putting this together!
Heath issues related to pollution can take years to show. It is difficult to prove the connection. There are no data available to prove or disprove that Great Park pollution can negatively impact people's heath. 
It comes down to your risk tolerance level. Say if there is a 20% risk that it will affect you and your baby's health, will you be ok with it? There is an 80% chance nothing bad will happen after all.
Personally I would not want to live in Great Park because of my low risk tolerance level. The psychological burden worrying about it is probably going to impact my health more than the pollution itself.
 
MPark, just curious why you prefer GPN over Portola Springs or Eastwood or Orchard Hills?  If you saw them all equally, I would think your concern would take GPN out of contention.
 
Ok so first off if you are this concerned about this issue I'm going to go ahead and say you probably don't want to live in the Great Park.

To answer your points a bit with my own two cents...

1)  I grew up on the east coast where tons of land was developed and used for purposes that aren't up to today's environmental standards across the board. The house I grew up in had lead pipes while I was growing up and still has some today for the water leaving the house. I think you would be hard pressed to find a single area of the country with zero environmental concerns from one angle or the other. I guess I have just accepted there's a certain amount of risk associated with existing as a human being in today's world.
2)  Yeah being exposed to jet fuel does not seem ideal.
3)  I don't think there are too many private wells in Irvine - and you could always ask the folks at the farmer's market where their water comes from? I don't have kids or dogs so I don't have that concern about the grass. Generally, any water can be less than perfect. We live in PS not GP but we put a reverse osmosis system in our house.
4) I don't really have a comment on this one, except that the EPA saying our drinking water is safe seems generally positive but I'm still glad I have a water filtration system.
5)  I am not qualified to comment on radiation. For that matter, not really qualified to comment on any of this but here we are.
 
aquabliss said:
MPark, just curious why you prefer GPN over Portola Springs or Eastwood or Orchard Hills?  If you saw them all equally, I would think your concern would take GPN out of contention.
Click to expand...

We?ve been shopping all around Southern California but Irvine stuck out to us because we lived in Stonegate for a while and really liked it.  Regardless of the area, the market has been very competitive.  We put in a bid for a 2b/2ba in PS that listed for $780K and it sold for $880K.  I remember going to showings for a 3b/2.5ba condos in Woodbury and there would be about 10 other families waiting to go in by the time we came out.  Believe it or not, it was cheaper to go with a new home rather than a used one in todays market.
I?ve known about Irvine?s issues - the asphalt plant, the landfill, the canyon fires (I had to evacuate last year and that wasn?t fun), the el toro base, the Tustin base, the PS traffic, the PS homeowners insurance, the expensive GP taxes and even some shady stories about the Irvine company, but like someone said, every place has its issues and I?m not an idealist - We just came across a great deal and wondered if things were as innocuous as things appeared to be.
 
Having lived in Irvine for over 25 years, in and around all of those area that you listed. I am still kickin' fine. Knock on wood, because if BTC drop 80% or more, it would kill me faster than any of those ingredients you outlined.

Listen, the only thing that kill you faster, is constant worries. If you can find a happy home and able to afford it and not stress out about money over it than you will live a long happy life, even with a pack of cigarettes a day on those soils and you still fine, bro.
 
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