trrenter_IHB
New member
EvaLSeraphim said:
I am all for a flat tax!!!
However this type of tax is a regressive tax a regressive tax imposes a greater burden (relative to resources) on the poor than on the rich
Govt. to REQUIRE adults to carry Health care insurance
- Thread starter trrenter_IHB
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NEW -> Contingent Buyer Assistance Program
I am all for a flat tax!!!
However this type of tax is a regressive tax a regressive tax imposes a greater burden (relative to resources) on the poor than on the rich
I'm confused. You are cheering on the concept of a flat taxation scheme, yet criticizing its regressive nature at the same time. :S
She uses a CPAP machine and thus has a "pre-existing condition". When I say uninsurable I mean uninsurable at any price.
When she lost her job we got lucky and got COBRA, which costs $500 a month, except they charge you another $500 in "surcharge fees" for a total of $1000 a month. She became employed before the most recent stimulus/unemployment facilitated COBRA subsidy. Rather than spend $2000 a month for COBRA, she attempted to secure insurance for herself and me on the outside.
I was accepted by 8 different companies, she was denied coverage by 8 different companies. Had COBRA ran out, she would of wound up completely SOL. My policy would up being like $90 a month - a slight reduction from COBRA
I have a buddy who's dead set against this health reform. His wife is a cancer survivor. She's in the same boat. She works so she can have insurance. The only reason I can see for him not supporting the reform is he's a Luddite (he really is a Luddite. If the GOP was a rudderless ship manifested to head over the Niagara Falls, he's get on because the only path is the GOP path).
On another forum I participate, a member lost his job because the company he worked for unexpectedly closed over the 4th of July. His supervisor's wife was scheduled to have her breast cancer surgery on Monday. If she gets it, he'll be one of these bankruptcy claims. The doctor won’t be paid, and he’ll be destitute. Happens all the time.
He can apply for Cobra and have the surgery covered. If I am not mistaken a pre existing condition will be covered under HIPPA if there hasn't been a lapse of insurance for 60 days or more.
In addition to that he may want to check to see if the insurance truly expires on 7/4 it may actually extend until the end of the month. I know at my company if you are employed on the first your insurance carries until the end of the month.
Edited to add.
Cobra Premium reduction
There also is a premium reduction in place where you only have to pay 35%.
No, he can't. COBRA is admin'd through your previous employer. If your previous employer goes out of business, or the employer elects NOT to extend COBRA, you're screwed.
Yes, you are correct that these are regressive taxes. I do feel like Joe blue collar deserve a beer as much as Mr CEO and that it's unfair that Joe's beer tax is a much higher percentage of his income. However, it's always easier to get a sin tax by the general public. Progressive taxation is where the higher income earners pay a larger percentage and as you can even see from this board, this gets huge backlash. Even Joe the Plumber didn't believe in progressive taxation because he figured he would be in that income bracket some day.
Why exactly do the lower income earners think progressive taxation is a bad thing? Two typical surveys tell us. Half the public thinks they are in the top 10% and a large majority still think that they will be millionaires someday.
I do favor a progressive tax system because I firmly believe that this country provides a great opportunity to do well. A number of the reasons that one can do better here than in other countries has to do with things that are provided by govt, which means it came from taxes. I really believe that the people who are able to make it rich have more to pay back due to the infrastructure and laws and governance than does Joe blue collar worker.
Our roads are most damaged from the trucks, but the trucks are carrying goods that make a handful of the people supplying those goods quite wealthy. Our public education system is far from perfect, but it sure as heck does produce much better educated workers who help the people at the top earn more. Do the wealthy and corporations not use the court system more than Joe blue collar? Mr $3 M estate owner, is he paying more for the fire department that saves his dwelling?
The fact of the matter is that government provides a lot of services that many of us take for granted. It has to be paid for and it will either be paid for regressively or proressively. I do favor the latter for the reasons I've stated and because it's not healthy for a society to have a huge percentage of the wealth concentrated in a small percentage of hands. We are back to the 1920's Robber Baron era in terms of this and on par with Latin American countries that do not share our values.
We all hate taxes, but at least it would be nice if the taxes we did pay went to things that make the society better as we al l benefit from that.
Yes TR, Obama is subsidizing the COBRA premium with our tax dollars. I thought this is one of the things that you hate? Frankly, without subsidization , COBRA is too expensive for many unemployed people. Back in 2001 I went uninsured because COBRA for a healthy 30 year old was more than half of my UE compensation.
You know what... I think no_vas is correct here. I had been paying into COBRA when I left my previous company and the contract I took didn't have a health plan. I switched to an individual plan because I could get one, it was less and most importantly, my previous employer was taking my COBRA payments and NOT paying for my insurance. I had just signed up for the individual coverage when I got a notice that my previous employer had gone under and I was no longer eligible for COBRA.
Again, we have a VERY broken system for healthcare and those who have access and those who are left out.
You just hit one of the biggest nails on the head. The demand curve isn't mitigated by costs. The system is design to eliminate price competition on the service demand side. The price the competition is on the intake side and then it's open ended. Hence, the denial of coverage for many because coverage means run-away costs.
The last employer I had did not extend COBRA to me when I left. I learned there was nothing I could do to compel them to do so. I was entitled to it, and they were obligated to provide it, but there is no enforcment arm.
When on UE, 60% of my wife's check went to pay for COBRA. Lord help us if I hadn't been able to bind my own coverage. I live in mortal fear of "lapse of coverage" and the resulting "denial of coverage because of known preexisting conditions."
From another board:
I always give cites, but I'm not going to here because I don't know if this particular Orthopedic Surgeon wants to be identified, and I don't know if I want to be outed either. Either way, my point is still valid. The system is woefully broken and needs a radical overhaul.
Exactly... there are those of us who are lucky by the skin of our teeth and know that should that change, we are royally screwed and joining the ranks of the people failing. Being a few steps away from the edge of the cliff makes you realize that those falling off deserve a safety net.
As I've stated, my previous employer gladly let me sign on to COBRA because the execs were taking my payments and NOT paying the insurer, leaving me unknowingly uninsured. Fortunately, it was only my annual physical that I had to pay for out of pocket, but what IF, WHAT IF, something serious happened during that time? I'd be bankrupt.
Just the Medicare rules make it illegal to give somebody paying cash the medicare discount. The more you think about it, the more insane the whole existing system becomes.
Try thinking of it as real bankruptcy reform, as in it will actually reduce bankruptcies. It'll make it a little less bitter to swallow.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=are-medical-costs-the-leading-cause-2009-06-05
I am all for a flat tax!!!
However this type of tax is a regressive tax a regressive tax imposes a greater burden (relative to resources) on the poor than on the rich
green_cactus_IHB
New member
trrenter said:
I'm confused. You are cheering on the concept of a flat taxation scheme, yet criticizing its regressive nature at the same time. :S
no_vaseline_IHB
New member
three sheets said:
She uses a CPAP machine and thus has a "pre-existing condition". When I say uninsurable I mean uninsurable at any price.
When she lost her job we got lucky and got COBRA, which costs $500 a month, except they charge you another $500 in "surcharge fees" for a total of $1000 a month. She became employed before the most recent stimulus/unemployment facilitated COBRA subsidy. Rather than spend $2000 a month for COBRA, she attempted to secure insurance for herself and me on the outside.
I was accepted by 8 different companies, she was denied coverage by 8 different companies. Had COBRA ran out, she would of wound up completely SOL. My policy would up being like $90 a month - a slight reduction from COBRA
I have a buddy who's dead set against this health reform. His wife is a cancer survivor. She's in the same boat. She works so she can have insurance. The only reason I can see for him not supporting the reform is he's a Luddite (he really is a Luddite. If the GOP was a rudderless ship manifested to head over the Niagara Falls, he's get on because the only path is the GOP path).
On another forum I participate, a member lost his job because the company he worked for unexpectedly closed over the 4th of July. His supervisor's wife was scheduled to have her breast cancer surgery on Monday. If she gets it, he'll be one of these bankruptcy claims. The doctor won’t be paid, and he’ll be destitute. Happens all the time.
trrenter_IHB
New member
I am for a fedral flat tax vs the federal tax system that is in place today. Simple X percentage of income for everyone.
As far as pointing out that a sales tax on tobacco, soda and alcohol is a regressive tax I didn' critisize it I was just pointing it out. This is not a flat tax because the tax is not the same percentage of income for everyone. It is the same cost to everyone though.
In other words if you tax soda an extra $1 per can that is a higher percentage of tax on somone making 20k a year vs someone making 200k a year. Thus effecting the poorer more then the rich.
Some people argue for that to be the way we collect taxes as well vs our current system. A consumption tax if you will.
As far as pointing out that a sales tax on tobacco, soda and alcohol is a regressive tax I didn' critisize it I was just pointing it out. This is not a flat tax because the tax is not the same percentage of income for everyone. It is the same cost to everyone though.
In other words if you tax soda an extra $1 per can that is a higher percentage of tax on somone making 20k a year vs someone making 200k a year. Thus effecting the poorer more then the rich.
Some people argue for that to be the way we collect taxes as well vs our current system. A consumption tax if you will.
bltserv_IHB
New member
The current system is corrupt and abusive. The premise is before you die we get all your money. Then you go BK and we are satisfied. The bloated Health Care industry will get slain
and destroyed as it serves nobody and just gets between Doctors and Patients. I am going to dance when they become extinct.
After having Blue Cross for over a decade. Our premiums at work became more costly than the building. So I decided to just take the chance and cancelled the insurance in the downturn.
We just could no longer afford it. We are down to 3 employees including myself. Well low and behold I get a hernia at work. Go to my Dr. and he refers me to Mission Surgery. These people want like $ 30,000.00 to fix my Hernia as an InPatient. After shopping around I find a Doctor
in Vegas that just does Hernia`s. This guy is great. Does a super job and its only $ 6,000.00 as an outpatient. Somehow the system needs to eliminate the middle man like Kaiser and Blue Cross who serve nobody but their own greed. Its inflated the costs beyond all reason.
Kind of reminds me of House Prices. All of these Health Car Companies will go the same way
as CountryWide in the coming year. And the Ludites that dont support change can just watch and whine.
and destroyed as it serves nobody and just gets between Doctors and Patients. I am going to dance when they become extinct.
After having Blue Cross for over a decade. Our premiums at work became more costly than the building. So I decided to just take the chance and cancelled the insurance in the downturn.
We just could no longer afford it. We are down to 3 employees including myself. Well low and behold I get a hernia at work. Go to my Dr. and he refers me to Mission Surgery. These people want like $ 30,000.00 to fix my Hernia as an InPatient. After shopping around I find a Doctor
in Vegas that just does Hernia`s. This guy is great. Does a super job and its only $ 6,000.00 as an outpatient. Somehow the system needs to eliminate the middle man like Kaiser and Blue Cross who serve nobody but their own greed. Its inflated the costs beyond all reason.
Kind of reminds me of House Prices. All of these Health Car Companies will go the same way
as CountryWide in the coming year. And the Ludites that dont support change can just watch and whine.
trrenter_IHB
New member
He can apply for Cobra and have the surgery covered. If I am not mistaken a pre existing condition will be covered under HIPPA if there hasn't been a lapse of insurance for 60 days or more.
In addition to that he may want to check to see if the insurance truly expires on 7/4 it may actually extend until the end of the month. I know at my company if you are employed on the first your insurance carries until the end of the month.
Edited to add.
Cobra Premium reduction
There also is a premium reduction in place where you only have to pay 35%.
no_vaseline_IHB
New member
trrenter said:
No, he can't. COBRA is admin'd through your previous employer. If your previous employer goes out of business, or the employer elects NOT to extend COBRA, you're screwed.
stepping_up_IHB
New member
trrenter said:
Yes, you are correct that these are regressive taxes. I do feel like Joe blue collar deserve a beer as much as Mr CEO and that it's unfair that Joe's beer tax is a much higher percentage of his income. However, it's always easier to get a sin tax by the general public. Progressive taxation is where the higher income earners pay a larger percentage and as you can even see from this board, this gets huge backlash. Even Joe the Plumber didn't believe in progressive taxation because he figured he would be in that income bracket some day.
Why exactly do the lower income earners think progressive taxation is a bad thing? Two typical surveys tell us. Half the public thinks they are in the top 10% and a large majority still think that they will be millionaires someday.
I do favor a progressive tax system because I firmly believe that this country provides a great opportunity to do well. A number of the reasons that one can do better here than in other countries has to do with things that are provided by govt, which means it came from taxes. I really believe that the people who are able to make it rich have more to pay back due to the infrastructure and laws and governance than does Joe blue collar worker.
Our roads are most damaged from the trucks, but the trucks are carrying goods that make a handful of the people supplying those goods quite wealthy. Our public education system is far from perfect, but it sure as heck does produce much better educated workers who help the people at the top earn more. Do the wealthy and corporations not use the court system more than Joe blue collar? Mr $3 M estate owner, is he paying more for the fire department that saves his dwelling?
The fact of the matter is that government provides a lot of services that many of us take for granted. It has to be paid for and it will either be paid for regressively or proressively. I do favor the latter for the reasons I've stated and because it's not healthy for a society to have a huge percentage of the wealth concentrated in a small percentage of hands. We are back to the 1920's Robber Baron era in terms of this and on par with Latin American countries that do not share our values.
We all hate taxes, but at least it would be nice if the taxes we did pay went to things that make the society better as we al l benefit from that.
stepping_up_IHB
New member
trrenter said:
Yes TR, Obama is subsidizing the COBRA premium with our tax dollars. I thought this is one of the things that you hate? Frankly, without subsidization , COBRA is too expensive for many unemployed people. Back in 2001 I went uninsured because COBRA for a healthy 30 year old was more than half of my UE compensation.
stepping_up_IHB
New member
no_vaseline said:
You know what... I think no_vas is correct here. I had been paying into COBRA when I left my previous company and the contract I took didn't have a health plan. I switched to an individual plan because I could get one, it was less and most importantly, my previous employer was taking my COBRA payments and NOT paying for my insurance. I had just signed up for the individual coverage when I got a notice that my previous employer had gone under and I was no longer eligible for COBRA.
Again, we have a VERY broken system for healthcare and those who have access and those who are left out.
No_Such_Reality_IHB
New member
bltserv said:
You just hit one of the biggest nails on the head. The demand curve isn't mitigated by costs. The system is design to eliminate price competition on the service demand side. The price the competition is on the intake side and then it's open ended. Hence, the denial of coverage for many because coverage means run-away costs.
no_vaseline_IHB
New member
stepping_up said:
The last employer I had did not extend COBRA to me when I left. I learned there was nothing I could do to compel them to do so. I was entitled to it, and they were obligated to provide it, but there is no enforcment arm.
When on UE, 60% of my wife's check went to pay for COBRA. Lord help us if I hadn't been able to bind my own coverage. I live in mortal fear of "lapse of coverage" and the resulting "denial of coverage because of known preexisting conditions."
no_vaseline_IHB
New member
No_Such_Reality said:
From another board:
I always give cites, but I'm not going to here because I don't know if this particular Orthopedic Surgeon wants to be identified, and I don't know if I want to be outed either. Either way, my point is still valid. The system is woefully broken and needs a radical overhaul.
stepping_up_IHB
New member
no_vaseline said:
Exactly... there are those of us who are lucky by the skin of our teeth and know that should that change, we are royally screwed and joining the ranks of the people failing. Being a few steps away from the edge of the cliff makes you realize that those falling off deserve a safety net.
As I've stated, my previous employer gladly let me sign on to COBRA because the execs were taking my payments and NOT paying the insurer, leaving me unknowingly uninsured. Fortunately, it was only my annual physical that I had to pay for out of pocket, but what IF, WHAT IF, something serious happened during that time? I'd be bankrupt.
No_Such_Reality_IHB
New member
That's also the point. The Medicare system is broken and breaking the medical system. They charge $30,000 for something because Medicare is only going to pay $6000 and then everybody else is stuck paying $30,000 or whatever their smaller plan has negotiated.
no_vaseline_IHB
New member
No_Such_Reality said:
Just the Medicare rules make it illegal to give somebody paying cash the medicare discount. The more you think about it, the more insane the whole existing system becomes.
trrenter_IHB
New member
I don't argue the system is broken. My father got screwed on a transplant list he is dead because of it.
The flip side of that my mom had a condition that had she lived in Canada she would probably be dead. See she knew she needed an MRI and got one and a week later she was in surgery. The Doctors told her she was lucky she demanded an MRI because she would be dead if she waited longer. My Canadian friend, when we had lunch, said well she would have been dead because MRI's take a long time.
Change for change sake is not progressive thinking.
On the last WHO (from 2000) ranking Canada which everyone is touting as the way to go finished 30th on the rankings and the US finished 38th. If you read the articles that I posted earlier you would see that those rankings could possibly have skewed the US lower then they should have been. In addition to that some of the higher ranking countries skew their ranking by manipulating what and how the report their numbers. WHO stopped posting the rankings because they claim it is to difficult to compile the info.
With that being said we want to overhaul our system and spend trillions of dollars and raise taxes so we can move up 7 spots on the rankings? If 7 spots truly still exists between the US and Canada.
Don't assume I am against universal health care. I am not necesarilly against universla heatlh care if you can PROVE that what you are proposing will work sigificantly better then what Canada has.
Us Luddites need that little thing called proof that what the Messiah Obama is proposing will work better then the current system.
The whole anything is better then what we have argument is not a compelling argument for change.
The flip side of that my mom had a condition that had she lived in Canada she would probably be dead. See she knew she needed an MRI and got one and a week later she was in surgery. The Doctors told her she was lucky she demanded an MRI because she would be dead if she waited longer. My Canadian friend, when we had lunch, said well she would have been dead because MRI's take a long time.
Change for change sake is not progressive thinking.
On the last WHO (from 2000) ranking Canada which everyone is touting as the way to go finished 30th on the rankings and the US finished 38th. If you read the articles that I posted earlier you would see that those rankings could possibly have skewed the US lower then they should have been. In addition to that some of the higher ranking countries skew their ranking by manipulating what and how the report their numbers. WHO stopped posting the rankings because they claim it is to difficult to compile the info.
With that being said we want to overhaul our system and spend trillions of dollars and raise taxes so we can move up 7 spots on the rankings? If 7 spots truly still exists between the US and Canada.
Don't assume I am against universal health care. I am not necesarilly against universla heatlh care if you can PROVE that what you are proposing will work sigificantly better then what Canada has.
Us Luddites need that little thing called proof that what the Messiah Obama is proposing will work better then the current system.
The whole anything is better then what we have argument is not a compelling argument for change.
no_vaseline_IHB
New member
trrenter said:
Try thinking of it as real bankruptcy reform, as in it will actually reduce bankruptcies. It'll make it a little less bitter to swallow.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=are-medical-costs-the-leading-cause-2009-06-05