God?
- Thread starter irvinehomeowner
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Are those businesses suffering and even closing down? Yes, they're being persecuted in a way.
Of course when we talk about the church persecution, we can view it a little bit different, but that's why I think it's like a preview as I stated. It's not that extreme so we're not getting killed or jailed or anything like that like some other countries or how it was when church was first born (although there were such threatening to a certain church from the state recently), but since the U.S. became a country, I think it's almost a first state's limitation on a religious gathering.
Sure, we can take it easy and ride with the online services for some years. I have concerns for it. You and others don't. Let's see how it turns out later on. We'll see who's been using one's own measuring stick.
I really hope you're right and I'm wrong. I agree there are some crazy churches making it sound all weird and non-logical, but there are some real churches that have been targeted if you follow closely what's been happening.
If I were to persecute church, I wouldn't single it out all of a sudden especially in this country. Subtle gradual moves with some time is all it would take.
This is just a personal concern for church, the real Christ believers in this country or for even world wide. This is not a concern for the non-believers or how would they look at Christians to be quite honest. Sharing your opinion is fine as well although some call mine ridiculous. ;D
Yes, the Christians in some Muslim countries are being persecuted real deal. The level of persecution in US (if there is any) is pretty low for sure compare to others. I'm just concerned that it could be the start of it. It's like a preview. It starts small, but can grow much severe. Again, I hope I'm wrong.
I seriously do not understand this POV...Christianity is intertwined in almost every part of American society...especially and most unfortunately...political. This concept that it is being persecuted is odd to me.
Can you please advise as to what you see as "persecution"...especially as compared other religions in this country? I mean I do not see Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, or Sikhs claiming persecution because they cannot go congregate in their relative houses of worship.
Please take political aspect out of this. You can start that first if you think all others are doing it.
You said other religions don't claim persecution but only Christians. I wasn't really focusing on other religions, but what you just said perfectly explains how Christians are singled out to be persecuted in this era under the name of Covid-19. Other religions don't see any need to gather because they're perfectly fine as is. However, Christians are commanded by God to gather for many reasons. Aside from following God's command, gathering alone is speaking of your faith even though you might not be evangelizing with your lips. It's an action that speaks itself. That is one of the reasons why God called you to meet in person even from OT to NT separating from other religions.
Yes, you can have worship yourself alone or with your family at home. I'm not saying those are not worship. But think about this. If you were to just have a facetime with your wife or loved ones but can't meet in person, how would that relationship grow? It can grow, but not as much as doing so in person.
Wait, but isn't it about you and God who is always with you no matter where you are? No, it's not just a relationship with you and God. It's also the relationship with you and other believers. Remember, we are to love God and also to love our neighbor? God designed worship in a way He knows we can grow. And that is by gathering together. Household to household. Different people in one place. Singing His Name and sharing food and other good stuff together in person. To reflect Heaven as those are the things we would do there. Those are exact things we can't do now. Coincidence? Maybe. But I might know who's behind this whole thing against church. No, not Gavin Newsom or any Democrats but Satan. You can call me crazy or ridiculous. But I'm just answering your question as best I can.
Now can you please answer my question from a previous page? What do you mean by "utter surrender to God?" You said that's Christian's ultimate goal.
Not sure what part of that post was "political".
Wait..say what? You think that people of other religions are not "obligated" to gather together physically? This is a prime example of Christian in America thinking that they are extra special and any efforts to make them "equal" constitutes persecution.
FYI: https://www.lansingstatejournal.com...-service-which-holds-much-meaning/3335807001/
We are not talking about not meeting...we are talking about not meeting physically as a church in whole. You are still welcome to meet with other Christians in a small group environment...that's what the early church did.
Worship is about you and God...fellowship is about you and other Christians. Nothing stopping you from meeting with other Christians outside of church. How many other Christians do you need to do proper fellowship? 15...20...150?
Again...you can meet in all sorts of ways outside of a church environment. Nothing stopping you having fellowship other Christians in your homes. You just have very limited view of what "fellowship" requires. Again...early church were in homes in small groups.
It means that you as a human being will always fall short of the glory of God. The only thing you can do is to give up your old self and nature and allow God to work through you. The more one thinks that one can do things to become more Christian...the less one is.
You said Christians in America are intertwined politically. So I'm just saying you can start not doing so yourself before blaming all other Christians. If you think you don't then great.
Sure, but we're not allowed to meet even in a small group environment like how the early church did. We can't meet for home worship service, we can't sing, we can't share food. Does that sound all fine to you?
God designed worship. God told Israel how to worship. He not only specifically set dates and places to worship in order to show how different and set apart God's style is from all other religions but also commanded to do so in physical gatherings. Heart motivation is more important than just physical obedience, but like I said, such gathering is a proclamation of your faith to the world. That being stopped bothers me. How many don't matter. It's a matter of the state stopping worship gathering no matter the numbers. Maybe this whole thing just seems like a health issue to you. Let's see how it turns out. We all don't know yet, but I'm hoping for the best.
Again... this is not allowed by the state.
I think everyone is clear that we're saved by grace only, not by works. Isn't that what separates Christianity from other religions? All other religions need to work on their salvation. Isn't that why those Muslims are gathering like that from the link you sent? Like you said, the humanity falls short of glory, but once we believe Jesus as our Savior, we actually don't fall short of His glory anymore. That's why we're saved. The old self is gone and you are a new creature in Christ. Giving up your old self almost sounds right, but that's actually work of the Holy Spirit, not yours. You can't let it go. You only allow God to do so by having Jesus as your LORD. Having Jesus as LORD means hearing His message, believing His words by repentance, praising His Name, and loving one another. These are now being limited. Maybe all is fine, eh?
No...that's not what I am saying at all. What I am saying is that there is no evidence that the American church is being persecuted. How are they being treated any different than any other organization, religions, and/or businesses?
American society is not a Christian society....it has Christian influences but it is not a "Christian Nation". Evangelicals make this mistake all the time.
I did not say Christians cannot be political...I lament the fact that Christians organizations and groups tie themselves politically when the church should be apolitical. Politics corrupts religions just like religions corrupts politics. Go check out European between 500 A.D. and 1600s.
Someone stopping you (or anyone) from meeting in your homes like the early church did? I mean that's literally what they did...
?When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Most certainly, I tell you, they have received their reward." Matthew 6:5
Again...you have very narrow interpretations as to why and how worship happens. I worship in my car when I sing along to a worship song. I can do it together with my small group over zoom. I do it when I watch my church's virtual service. There is no need for me to show any one anything...it is between me and my God.
Any evidence that it isn't just a health issue?
No...the state does not ban small group gatherings or outdoor service. Like every other business or organization.
Giving up your old self is you...you have to make a decision to do it. But that has to do with your relationship with God and how much you get out of that relationship. That has nothing to do with salvation.
We constantly fall short of the glory of God...it is only when we approach the throne with Christ's blood are we allowed to do so. God forgives...He doesn't forget.
So just don't tie yourself to the political corruption then. Who are you pointing fingers here? You need love, man. ;D
Umm... maybe you need to know that home worship is not allowed in CA if you're together with non-immediate family members. I mean the marriage services are being held through Zoom now days. What restriction? If I'm wrong, let me know. I would be glad to know I'm the one who's wrong here.
All you're saying is fine. I'm with you that you need personal worship with God and you should not do so in public to boast yourself like hypocrites. That link you sent with Muslim gatherings, that seems more like hypocritical meeting to me (yeah yeah, point fingers at me). What I'm saying is not about "showing" your worship to others. What I'm saying is we worship "together." And by doing it together, we proclaim we're God's people even if we speak nothing. That is God's design and it's unfortunate that we got too comfortable with just my individual relationship with my God and that's it.
Yes, outdoor is allowed. It's all good except someone might see it hypocritical since we would do it in public, no?
Unless you get rid of your old self, you can't be saved. The Bible is clear on that. Good luck with doing it yourself if you believe like that. BTW, God not only forgives but forgets all your sins if you really have Jesus as your LORD. You got all the message. I pray you make the right decision.
As opposed to any other businesses or religious meetings?
Again...equality does not mean persecution.
So according to your definition of persecution, if all are being treated unfair, then it cannot be called persecution? When Romans destroyed Israel in 70 AD, they also killed Christians. Since they were all getting killed, we can't say Christians were getting persecuted then, right?
BTW, I'm with you that we're not in real persecution of the believers yet as the Bible talks about in Revelation and when Jesus warned of it. I just think it's like a preview of it or it could be the beginning of it.
No...my definition of persecution is:
There is zero evidence of this with respect to the COVID order.
So I think it would be good to reserve terms like "persecution" until it actually happens.
Meanwhile, are you similarly outraged by white nationalist, anti-Muslim, anti-Asian, and/or other racist/bigot language that seems to be freely used by certain groups and/or politicians?
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
So are indoor-only dining restaurants being persecuted? Bars? Movie theaters?
C'mon Mety... you're reaching.
C'mon Mety... you're reaching.
irvinehomeowner said:
Are those businesses suffering and even closing down? Yes, they're being persecuted in a way.
Of course when we talk about the church persecution, we can view it a little bit different, but that's why I think it's like a preview as I stated. It's not that extreme so we're not getting killed or jailed or anything like that like some other countries or how it was when church was first born (although there were such threatening to a certain church from the state recently), but since the U.S. became a country, I think it's almost a first state's limitation on a religious gathering.
Sure, we can take it easy and ride with the online services for some years. I have concerns for it. You and others don't. Let's see how it turns out later on. We'll see who's been using one's own measuring stick.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
What I'm trying to say is that no one is just targeting the churches. But some churches are making it sound that way.
There are many organization/businesses being affected by Covid, it's not some "crusade" against religion.
There are many organization/businesses being affected by Covid, it's not some "crusade" against religion.
irvinehomeowner said:
I really hope you're right and I'm wrong. I agree there are some crazy churches making it sound all weird and non-logical, but there are some real churches that have been targeted if you follow closely what's been happening.
If I were to persecute church, I wouldn't single it out all of a sudden especially in this country. Subtle gradual moves with some time is all it would take.
This is just a personal concern for church, the real Christ believers in this country or for even world wide. This is not a concern for the non-believers or how would they look at Christians to be quite honest. Sharing your opinion is fine as well although some call mine ridiculous. ;D
eyephone said:
Yes, the Christians in some Muslim countries are being persecuted real deal. The level of persecution in US (if there is any) is pretty low for sure compare to others. I'm just concerned that it could be the start of it. It's like a preview. It starts small, but can grow much severe. Again, I hope I'm wrong.
Irvinecommuter
New member
Mety said:
I seriously do not understand this POV...Christianity is intertwined in almost every part of American society...especially and most unfortunately...political. This concept that it is being persecuted is odd to me.
Can you please advise as to what you see as "persecution"...especially as compared other religions in this country? I mean I do not see Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, or Sikhs claiming persecution because they cannot go congregate in their relative houses of worship.
Irvinecommuter said:
Please take political aspect out of this. You can start that first if you think all others are doing it.
You said other religions don't claim persecution but only Christians. I wasn't really focusing on other religions, but what you just said perfectly explains how Christians are singled out to be persecuted in this era under the name of Covid-19. Other religions don't see any need to gather because they're perfectly fine as is. However, Christians are commanded by God to gather for many reasons. Aside from following God's command, gathering alone is speaking of your faith even though you might not be evangelizing with your lips. It's an action that speaks itself. That is one of the reasons why God called you to meet in person even from OT to NT separating from other religions.
Yes, you can have worship yourself alone or with your family at home. I'm not saying those are not worship. But think about this. If you were to just have a facetime with your wife or loved ones but can't meet in person, how would that relationship grow? It can grow, but not as much as doing so in person.
Wait, but isn't it about you and God who is always with you no matter where you are? No, it's not just a relationship with you and God. It's also the relationship with you and other believers. Remember, we are to love God and also to love our neighbor? God designed worship in a way He knows we can grow. And that is by gathering together. Household to household. Different people in one place. Singing His Name and sharing food and other good stuff together in person. To reflect Heaven as those are the things we would do there. Those are exact things we can't do now. Coincidence? Maybe. But I might know who's behind this whole thing against church. No, not Gavin Newsom or any Democrats but Satan. You can call me crazy or ridiculous. But I'm just answering your question as best I can.
Now can you please answer my question from a previous page? What do you mean by "utter surrender to God?" You said that's Christian's ultimate goal.
Irvinecommuter
New member
Mety said:
Not sure what part of that post was "political".
Wait..say what? You think that people of other religions are not "obligated" to gather together physically? This is a prime example of Christian in America thinking that they are extra special and any efforts to make them "equal" constitutes persecution.
FYI: https://www.lansingstatejournal.com...-service-which-holds-much-meaning/3335807001/
We are not talking about not meeting...we are talking about not meeting physically as a church in whole. You are still welcome to meet with other Christians in a small group environment...that's what the early church did.
Worship is about you and God...fellowship is about you and other Christians. Nothing stopping you from meeting with other Christians outside of church. How many other Christians do you need to do proper fellowship? 15...20...150?
Again...you can meet in all sorts of ways outside of a church environment. Nothing stopping you having fellowship other Christians in your homes. You just have very limited view of what "fellowship" requires. Again...early church were in homes in small groups.
It means that you as a human being will always fall short of the glory of God. The only thing you can do is to give up your old self and nature and allow God to work through you. The more one thinks that one can do things to become more Christian...the less one is.
Irvinecommuter said:
You said Christians in America are intertwined politically. So I'm just saying you can start not doing so yourself before blaming all other Christians. If you think you don't then great.
Irvinecommuter said:
Sure, but we're not allowed to meet even in a small group environment like how the early church did. We can't meet for home worship service, we can't sing, we can't share food. Does that sound all fine to you?
Irvinecommuter said:
God designed worship. God told Israel how to worship. He not only specifically set dates and places to worship in order to show how different and set apart God's style is from all other religions but also commanded to do so in physical gatherings. Heart motivation is more important than just physical obedience, but like I said, such gathering is a proclamation of your faith to the world. That being stopped bothers me. How many don't matter. It's a matter of the state stopping worship gathering no matter the numbers. Maybe this whole thing just seems like a health issue to you. Let's see how it turns out. We all don't know yet, but I'm hoping for the best.
Irvinecommuter said:
Again... this is not allowed by the state.
Irvinecommuter said:
I think everyone is clear that we're saved by grace only, not by works. Isn't that what separates Christianity from other religions? All other religions need to work on their salvation. Isn't that why those Muslims are gathering like that from the link you sent? Like you said, the humanity falls short of glory, but once we believe Jesus as our Savior, we actually don't fall short of His glory anymore. That's why we're saved. The old self is gone and you are a new creature in Christ. Giving up your old self almost sounds right, but that's actually work of the Holy Spirit, not yours. You can't let it go. You only allow God to do so by having Jesus as your LORD. Having Jesus as LORD means hearing His message, believing His words by repentance, praising His Name, and loving one another. These are now being limited. Maybe all is fine, eh?
It's funny when I was talking about churches in America are in need of desperate changes and repentance, you guys were all pointing fingers at me saying I need more love and whatnot.
Now when I'm trying to protect them from the government's unfair treatment, you guys are saying churches are politically corrupt and just trying to collect money from people and being secretive about outdoor gatherings?
What you guys are saying is clear and unchanging though. I give you that. You're always saying "All is fine." Sounds just like false prophets from the Bible...
Now when I'm trying to protect them from the government's unfair treatment, you guys are saying churches are politically corrupt and just trying to collect money from people and being secretive about outdoor gatherings?
What you guys are saying is clear and unchanging though. I give you that. You're always saying "All is fine." Sounds just like false prophets from the Bible...
Irvinecommuter
New member
Mety said:
No...that's not what I am saying at all. What I am saying is that there is no evidence that the American church is being persecuted. How are they being treated any different than any other organization, religions, and/or businesses?
American society is not a Christian society....it has Christian influences but it is not a "Christian Nation". Evangelicals make this mistake all the time.
Irvinecommuter
New member
Mety said:
I did not say Christians cannot be political...I lament the fact that Christians organizations and groups tie themselves politically when the church should be apolitical. Politics corrupts religions just like religions corrupts politics. Go check out European between 500 A.D. and 1600s.
Someone stopping you (or anyone) from meeting in your homes like the early church did? I mean that's literally what they did...
?When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Most certainly, I tell you, they have received their reward." Matthew 6:5
Again...you have very narrow interpretations as to why and how worship happens. I worship in my car when I sing along to a worship song. I can do it together with my small group over zoom. I do it when I watch my church's virtual service. There is no need for me to show any one anything...it is between me and my God.
Any evidence that it isn't just a health issue?
No...the state does not ban small group gatherings or outdoor service. Like every other business or organization.
Giving up your old self is you...you have to make a decision to do it. But that has to do with your relationship with God and how much you get out of that relationship. That has nothing to do with salvation.
We constantly fall short of the glory of God...it is only when we approach the throne with Christ's blood are we allowed to do so. God forgives...He doesn't forget.
Irvinecommuter said:
So just don't tie yourself to the political corruption then. Who are you pointing fingers here? You need love, man. ;D
Irvinecommuter said:
Umm... maybe you need to know that home worship is not allowed in CA if you're together with non-immediate family members. I mean the marriage services are being held through Zoom now days. What restriction? If I'm wrong, let me know. I would be glad to know I'm the one who's wrong here.
Irvinecommuter said:
All you're saying is fine. I'm with you that you need personal worship with God and you should not do so in public to boast yourself like hypocrites. That link you sent with Muslim gatherings, that seems more like hypocritical meeting to me (yeah yeah, point fingers at me). What I'm saying is not about "showing" your worship to others. What I'm saying is we worship "together." And by doing it together, we proclaim we're God's people even if we speak nothing. That is God's design and it's unfortunate that we got too comfortable with just my individual relationship with my God and that's it.
Irvinecommuter said:
Yes, outdoor is allowed. It's all good except someone might see it hypocritical since we would do it in public, no?
Irvinecommuter said:
Unless you get rid of your old self, you can't be saved. The Bible is clear on that. Good luck with doing it yourself if you believe like that. BTW, God not only forgives but forgets all your sins if you really have Jesus as your LORD. You got all the message. I pray you make the right decision.
Irvinecommuter
New member
Mety said:
As opposed to any other businesses or religious meetings?
Again...equality does not mean persecution.
Irvinecommuter said:
So according to your definition of persecution, if all are being treated unfair, then it cannot be called persecution? When Romans destroyed Israel in 70 AD, they also killed Christians. Since they were all getting killed, we can't say Christians were getting persecuted then, right?
BTW, I'm with you that we're not in real persecution of the believers yet as the Bible talks about in Revelation and when Jesus warned of it. I just think it's like a preview of it or it could be the beginning of it.
Irvinecommuter
New member
Mety said:
No...my definition of persecution is:
There is zero evidence of this with respect to the COVID order.
So I think it would be good to reserve terms like "persecution" until it actually happens.
Meanwhile, are you similarly outraged by white nationalist, anti-Muslim, anti-Asian, and/or other racist/bigot language that seems to be freely used by certain groups and/or politicians?