God?

[irvinehomeowner]

I think much of this is your own opinion vs mine because I don't see it the same as you do.

We got into this with irvinecommuter on several topics in this thread and you just have a different viewpoint than us.

You may think your way is the "correct" way, but like us, you are just as fallible.

I don't understand this example:

Can a guy marry a girl who doesn't love him back? Maybe by force or threatening. Maybe robots can, but God doesn't make you a robot but a human with freewill. He is waiting for your love back.

I think your analogy is mixed up here. Is the guy God and the girl people? Isn't that what he does, love people even though they don't love him back?

And yes, a guy can marry a girl who doesn't love him back if he believes that some day she will love him... just like God does with us.

 

[Mety]

I think much of this is your own opinion vs mine because I don't see it the same as you do.

We got into this with irvinecommuter on several topics in this thread and you just have a different viewpoint than us.

You may think your way is the "correct" way, but like us, you are just as fallible.

I don't understand this example:

Can a guy marry a girl who doesn't love him back? Maybe by force or threatening. Maybe robots can, but God doesn't make you a robot but a human with freewill. He is waiting for your love back.

I think your analogy is mixed up here. Is the guy God and the girl people? Isn't that what he does, love people even though they don't love him back?

And yes, a guy can marry a girl who doesn't love him back if he believes that some day she will love him... just like God does with us.

If you point out which you don't agree with, that would be appreciated. I keep hearing you say you have a different view than mine while agreeing some parts so I can't really see what things you disagree with.

Is it just simply you believe God will save everyone eventually vs. my view which is not everyone will be saved?

For that guy and a girl example, yes, the guy is God and the girl people. Like you said, God loves us regardless of our unbelief and unloving heart. But two can't happily marry. The union has to happen in agreement unless you're thinking of just a paper work. You might say, the marriage can start without love, but it can grow. Sure, but if the wife keeps having an affair with other guys and keeps running away, then it cannot happen.

BTW, the above example I just gave you is what's written in Hosea. He married a prostitute who kept running away, but he went and bought her back with his own money. That shows how much God is chasing even after people who keep denying God. But if the wife dies in denying her husband, does that still make her his wife?

 

[irvinehomeowner]

If you point out which you don't agree with, that would be appreciated. I keep hearing you say you have a different view than mine while agreeing some parts so I can't really see what things you disagree with.

Actually, you don't agree with my viewpoints so that is where you should start.

Is it just simply you believe God will save everyone eventually vs. my view which is not everyone will be saved?

That's just one thing. But you have it wrong, my hope is that he saves everyone... my belief is he will do whatever he does.

For that guy and a girl example, yes, the guy is God and the girl people. Like you said, God loves us regardless of our unbelief and unloving heart. But two can't happily marry. The union has to happen in agreement unless you're thinking of just a paper work. You might say, the marriage can start without love, but it can grow. Sure, but if the wife keeps having an affair with other guys and keeps running away, then it cannot happen.

Or... the positive side is she realizes how much he loves her and sees through his example what real love is and does not have affairs and stays with him.

BTW, the above example I just gave you is what's written in Hosea. He married a prostitute who kept running away, but he went and bought her back with his own money. That shows how much God is chasing even after people who keep denying God. But if the wife dies in denying her husband, does that still make her his wife?

That's the point, using God's example we should continue to love people even if they don't love us. Why would death change that love?

 

[Mety]

If you point out which you don't agree with, that would be appreciated. I keep hearing you say you have a different view than mine while agreeing some parts so I can't really see what things you disagree with.

Actually, you don't agree with my viewpoints so that is where you should start.

I disagree with people like P. Joel, Dave and those people who just try to attract more people to church without giving what they're actually getting into. That just seems like a smart business to me which is working very well (business wise) so far. But if you look at what Jesus was doing, all those tens of thousands of people who experienced His miracle ended up rejecting and killing Him. They all followed Him for awhile then started hating Him as soon as He talked about sin and death. Healing, feeding, performing miracles, spending time, hanging out, and all those things didn't matter at all once Jesus started talking about sin and death. Those "smart business" pastors are doing all the initial stuff and not giving the sin and death part so that people can remain open minded to churches. But what will happen when they actually hear the real message? Look at what happened in Jesus't time. That's what and why I disagree with you that these "relatable" message are something people should listen to especially those who don't fully know at least the concept of gospel.

Is it just simply you believe God will save everyone eventually vs. my view which is not everyone will be saved?

That's just one thing. But you have it wrong, my hope is that he saves everyone... my belief is he will do whatever he does.

Why even believe God at all then? What makes you you need to practice love and show some Christ's image in your life if everyone's going be eventually saved?

For that guy and a girl example, yes, the guy is God and the girl people. Like you said, God loves us regardless of our unbelief and unloving heart. But two can't happily marry. The union has to happen in agreement unless you're thinking of just a paper work. You might say, the marriage can start without love, but it can grow. Sure, but if the wife keeps having an affair with other guys and keeps running away, then it cannot happen.

Or... the positive side is she realizes how much he loves her and sees through his example what real love is and does not have affairs and stays with him.

If the wife stops having affairs and comes back fully to the husband, then yes that would be great. But why did all those majority of people who experienced Jesus' love in Israel killed Him in return? Why so many people still die in denying Jesus? 

BTW, the above example I just gave you is what's written in Hosea. He married a prostitute who kept running away, but he went and bought her back with his own money. That shows how much God is chasing even after people who keep denying God. But if the wife dies in denying her husband, does that still make her his wife?

That's the point, using God's example we should continue to love people even if they don't love us. Why would death change that love?

So this is the main thing you and I disagree with. You think (or hope) God will save all those people even if they die denying God. Have you asked why everyone or everything in this world eventually dies? It's because of "sin." Sin is killing all of us. The wages of sin is death according to the Bible. Death is not just our physical being dead in the tomb. It means we are SEPARATED from God, our creator. God and death are not in the same room. God is LIFE. That's why He warned Adam. Why would He make it such a huge deal if it's just a thing you experience and He'll save you anyways? If you die without believing the gospel, then you're done. You have no second chance as Jesus spoke about that in Luke 16. (Although God gave Adam like 900 years and also us so much time and chance to repent before we die.) So now since WE messed up, mingling with sin, God is defeating death on our behalf and eventually every believer will not experience death anymore. Until then we still are in this sinful flesh, though every believer's spirit is saved, so we are constrained by time of death. We don't know when our time is up. How can we be sure we'll be alive tomorrow also and still have time to hear the gospel later on? These are the things Apostles urged every believer to use time wisely. Yes, death without knowing Christ is the thing that can change the love of God, not by God's will but by your own will.

But you have to also know and believe, once you've accepted you're a sinner and truly have repented of yourself and have placed Jesus in place of you as LORD, then physical death no longer can separate you from the love of God as promised in Romans 8.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Who is to say that any other religion is "denying" God? It could be cultural, societal etc but maybe they are still faithful to God... just not in the Christian mindset that you have.

Why does the Bible have a carve out for Jewish people even though they do not believe in Jesus as God? There are always exceptions.

I don't think that "exceptions" means that people can do whatever they want, but I've said this before... a Muslim, a Jew, a Buddhist or whoever will all meet him in the end. I don't think what you *believe* when you die is the ultimate test of "denying" God.

I talked about my loophole earlier in this thread. If someone meets God after they die and they still deny him, God will decide... if they say they believe in him but really don't because they now know he exists (you know... like people with Covid), God will know... and those who truly believe, no matter what religion (or lack of) they had during their mortal life... I hope God accepts them.

Put it this way... faith is a struggle, will God only reward those at the top... or will he accept all.. even those who failed?  I want my kids to be the best they can be... do I love them less if they don't meet my expectations?

 

[Mety]

Who is to say that any other religion is "denying" God? It could be cultural, societal etc but maybe they are still faithful to God... just not in the Christian mindset that you have.

Why does the Bible have a carve out for Jewish people even though they do not believe in Jesus as God? There are always exceptions.

I don't think that "exceptions" means that people can do whatever they want, but I've said this before... a Muslim, a Jew, a Buddhist or whoever will all meet him in the end. I don't think what you *believe* when you die is the ultimate test of "denying" God.

I talked about my loophole earlier in this thread. If someone meets God after they die and they still deny him, God will decide... if they say they believe in him but really don't because they now know he exists (you know... like people with Covid), God will know... and those who truly believe, no matter what religion (or lack of) they had during their mortal life... I hope God accepts them.

Put it this way... faith is a struggle, will God only reward those at the top... or will he accept all.. even those who failed?  I want my kids to be the best they can be... do I love them less if they don't meet my expectations?

What your saying is the most popular view of religions these days. It sounds all good, but in the end, it's just another form of denying Jesus, the Son of God, as the only way to Heaven. It works and attracts people so many pastors are using that tactic in churches. But as any popular stuff fades away, people who were in it for those "enjoyable" or "relatable" stuff are fed up and leaving the church in America. Europe has gone through that already. We're just going the same route. That's the byproduct of hypocrisy of the church. 

I hear your passion for those who are not Christians, but please don't think of those who believe the Word of God as is are not as passionate or hopeful that those in other religions some day come to know Jesus as Christ. That's the whole reason why genuine pastors keep preaching the gospel. That's why I keep writing these things so that you or some other non-believers might come to know God more.

I apologize in advance for saying this in case you feel offended, but it seems like you need to learn the Bible more. If you call yourself a Christian, you should know what the Bible says and believe that as a standard at least over the popular view or what this world says. Well, I hope things I post will give you some new information you didn't know before. I hope you don't take it as I condemn those who don't agree with my view. While it might seem that way, I'm simply just describing the Word of God as is, hoping we'll all see in Heaven one day.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

I hope you're not offended but I don't think you can say I need to learn the Bible more.

Maybe you should read Francis Chan's Multiply book, particularly Part III: How to Study the Bible:
http://multiplymovement.com/readmore/7

You shouldn't use the Bible as a litmus test. Or use it to judge if others know the Bible as well as you.

Just my opinion.

 

[Mety]

I hope you're not offended but I don't think you can say I need to learn the Bible more.

Maybe you should read Francis Chan's Multiply book, particularly Part III: How to Study the Bible:
http://multiplymovement.com/readmore/7

You shouldn't use the Bible as a litmus test. Or use it to judge if others know the Bible as well as you.

Just my opinion.

I was only saying that because some things you wrote sounded like you didn't know or misunderstood what I wrote of referencing the Bible.

I'm not saying I'm better so I can judge you since I know more Bible or anything like that. I'm simply hoping you make the Word of God as the standard of your life. I suggest reading Book of John, just for couple of first chapters at least.

No offenses taken at all so no worries. I'll check out that Francis Chan's link also.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

What your saying is the most popular view of religions these days. It sounds all good, but in the end, it's just another form of denying Jesus, the Son of God, as the only way to Heaven. It works and attracts people so many pastors are using that tactic in churches. But as any popular stuff fades away, people who were in it for those "enjoyable" or "relatable" stuff are fed up and leaving the church in America. Europe has gone through that already. We're just going the same route. That's the byproduct of hypocrisy of the church. 

Since you asked me to be more detailed... I don't agree with this in particular. People are leaving the churches that haven't moved past the stringent belief that you can only do things the way they were hundreds of years ago. Or not even looking at church because of their adherence to outdated rules. Take the Western Catholic church for example, where priests cannot marry or women cannot be priests. While you can find verses in the Bible that can be interpreted as how it should be, is that really how it should be?

I hear your passion for those who are not Christians, but please don't think of those who believe the Word of God as is are not as passionate or hopeful that those in other religions some day come to know Jesus as Christ. That's the whole reason why genuine pastors keep preaching the gospel. That's why I keep writing these things so that you or some other non-believers might come to know God more.

So any other pastor is not genuine? Again, disagree. Who are we to judge who knows God more? How do you know for sure that's what God wants? How are you sure that this "evolution" in church/religion isn't part of his plan? Society/time/culture changes. What was God saying when there was slavery? Or during the Crusades when people were being killed in God's name?

I apologize in advance for saying this in case you feel offended, but it seems like you need to learn the Bible more. If you call yourself a Christian, you should know what the Bible says and believe that as a standard at least over the popular view or what this world says. Well, I hope things I post will give you some new information you didn't know before. I hope you don't take it as I condemn those who don't agree with my view. While it might seem that way, I'm simply just describing the Word of God as is, hoping we'll all see in Heaven one day.

Again, as Irvinecommuter has said in the past,  your interpretation of the Word of God is just that. Who is to say that you are absolutely correct in your assertions?

Jesus may be the only way to heaven, but there are many ways to Jesus.

 

[Mety]

@IHO,

I think I'm younger than you and relate to younger folks more. They're actually saying they wish the church was more conservative than trying to be all up to date with the trend. They're saying they want to learn the Bible rather than the pastor's cool stories in their churches. They're not dumb and they see through modern churches' marketing business strategies trying to make more people and money into their buildings. Sure there might be some younger people who want to go to cool churches, but you'll see how quickly they just end up leaving soon. BTW, I believe Catholic is one of the most apostate religions and that Pope guy is a strong candidate for the Anti-Christ. I also don't think Crusades were real Christians. I can give you why, but I'll talk about that in a different post.

How do we know what God wants? Well, isn't that why we need to read the Bible? The Bible talks about God all over. What He likes, what He hates, what are the things that we can properly give Him glory, etc. Of course, we can't know God fully. That's why He is God. We are only allowed to know up to what we can know but never 100%. But God does reveal Him through the Bible the most. BTW, any folks you see saying they hear the voice of God and do things as they hear, stay away from them. They're hearing someone else's voice, not God's. Anyways, if we were to know ONE thing what God wants, that would be believing in His Son Jesus. So that's the starting point we all should get. And I can confidently say any pastors who do not preach that message are not genuine.

Also it sounds like you think I only want traditional styles rather than modern for churches. You know what? I don't really care for the style. Like you said, the cultures are all different so we can't say one way is the only way for the form of gathering in a church. I only care for the motivation and the content of anything the churches do. HOWEVER, I do believe the Word of God is not something that get outdated nor in need of update to the current. What He says in the Bible is the way it should be. It doesn't say the priests cannot marry so that's one thing where you can know how the Catholic folks got it all wrong. If you really really read the Bible, you'll be surprised how it really doesn't need any updates. Maybe don't read KJV. Read ESV.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

I still think that's just your opinion. You don't represent the entirety of the "younger folks".

And your assumptions are still off. I read ESV and actually quite a few different versions, haven't read KJV in a while... this just shows how little you know about me just based off my posts on this forum.

And look at our conversation, most of your posts are critiquing how I view things and telling me what I should do, where my posts are just that I disagree with yours but I still accept it because I know not everyone see things the same way. Which do you think is more biblical?

 

[Mety]

I still think that's just your opinion. You don't represent the entirety of the "younger folks".

And your assumptions are still off. I read ESV and actually quite a few different versions, haven't read KJV in a while... this just shows how little you know about me just based off my posts on this forum.

And look at our conversation, most of your posts are critiquing how I view things and telling me what I should do, where my posts are just that I disagree with yours but I still accept it because I know not everyone see things the same way. Which do you think is more biblical?

Couple things to make sure.

Me being related to younger folks is an example to show that I actually talk to some of these who leave the church. I wasn?t saying I represent the whole younger group. I?m not that young to be honest.

I didn?t think you read KJV. I was saying some versions some folks like to read are in old English so that?s something we can update while the content of the Bible is not in need of update. You?re right. I don?t know you. We probably never will each other, but I hope to see you in Heaven for sure.

It?s really you who take my words as criticism. Maybe it?s my style of writings too. But if you look at the content of what I?m saying the only thing I suggest you was to read the Bible. Maybe you do read. Maybe you do more than me. I?m not saying ?Hey I read more and am closer to God. Just listen to me.? I?m saying what the Bible says is what Christians are supposed to believe. While my only suggestion to you is reading the Bible, I suggest or more encourage pastors to ?teach? the Bible.

Your approach sounds ?cooler? and to some folks it might sounds ?more biblical,? but accepting every view is not really biblical IMHO. God called Israel to be different and Jesus called His church to be different. The problems occurred when they started taking other views also. Many people like to pull Pharisees example for people like me, but what Pharisees were doing wrong was interpreting the Word of God wrong and applying things as they see fit to make more money in their pocket. So they robbed the poor. They stole things from those who could not speak up had. And they hypocritically tried to look holy on the outside by putting more money in the offering basket and announcing much donation and so on because they wanted to look good on the outside. Then Jesus came who cared nothing about all those and taught God?s Words correctly saying He alone is the Way to the Father which irritated Pharisees because such teaching seemed like it could jeopardize their bank account.

And let?s be honest. Your disagreement is another form of criticism. You?re not really accepting my view which I?m ok and willing to have conversation with, but you keep saying what I?m saying is only my take. My view is that what looks good on the outside is nothing if we don?t have the real content inside which is gospel. What is your view? Accept all things because we don?t want to offend anyone? Isn?t that trying to look good on the outside while turning back on the real content inside? You might say you?re just not disrespecting all possibilities that might lead to Christ. Yes, they could, but that?s not what really how God sees as the right ?strategy.? I?ll be posting about that along with love relationship that I said I would be posting about soon.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

It?s just like the whole WorldOMeter thing. I clarified why there could be an issue with new cases and then you say you were just being sarcastic.

Now you are telling me that you are not being critical of how my faith is but any observer of this thread can tell you otherwise. Go back and look at Irvinecommuter?s comments.

I?m not trying to be cool, why do I need to be cool in a thread about God? I think that may color your perspective on these pastors you don?t think are genuine. How do you know without actually talking to them?

You said it yourself, you want to bother people, you want people to be aware of their sin. To me that?s a punitive way of sharing the word of God.

We just don?t have the same perspective. You keep making suggestions to change me rather than accepting it and trying to understand my position. That?s the difference.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

And why would I be afraid of offending anyone? I created this thread didn?t I?

Maybe it is your posting style. You speak like you know exactly the right way to be a Christian and you say the proof is because you are backed up by the Bible.

I?m sure we both can name many pastors who say the same thing. Again, no one is infallible because as much as you can say that is what the Bible says, it?s still going through your interpretation, colored by your take, and based on your idea of what faith is... a sinner just like me.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Since you asked me to be more specific on my disagreements with your posts:

I think I'm younger than you and relate to younger folks more. They're actually saying they wish the church was more conservative than trying to be all up to date with the trend. They're saying they want to learn the Bible rather than the pastor's cool stories in their churches. They're not dumb and they see through modern churches' marketing business strategies trying to make more people and money into their buildings. Sure there might be some younger people who want to go to cool churches, but you'll see how quickly they just end up leaving soon.

This sounds like you know what many... if not all... younger folks want.

This is my response:

I still think that's just your opinion. You don't represent the entirety of the "younger folks".

But then you say this:

Me being related to younger folks is an example to show that I actually talk to some of these who leave the church. I wasn?t saying I represent the whole younger group. I?m not that young to be honest.

Then how can you say in a global sense that younger people are leaving the church and you know why when you have only talked to a small sample size?

That's like me asking one person why they don't wear a mask and then saying I know why all the anti-maskers feel the way they do.

I talk to young people too, much of my church is younger... and there are a variety of reasons why they leave... but I have yet to hear "I left because the pastor didn't bother me".

This very discussion, to me, is why churches and religion are having such a hard time. No one can agree... so it's mixed messaging and confusing.

Here is a question for you that you may or may not be able to answer. We know about your stance on non-Christians.

What about LGBT+? Can they be Christian? Many churches don't allow it. Does yours?

 

[Mety]

@IHO,

I think the main issue is that you look at one side of it, not the entire picture. When I say gospel message is bothersome, it doesn't end there. Why are you not quoting me on gospel message being joyful part?

Try not to think of "Mety" for a second. What I've said wrong. How my writing styles are offensive. How I judge some pastors and stuff. Before diving into all these, look at where the division is.

One group is saying to believe the Bible as is and trying to maintain its purity. The other group is blending into the society and starting to add/subtract stuff as strategies that have become a "customized worship" for people. The latter sounds so much more attractive and modern. But from the line of Christ to Peter/Paul to the first church to even now, there are that first group who tries to maintain the Word of God as is no matter the time, era, or the history. That latter always develops and changes as the time goes. Catholic is one of them. The Protestant Reformation only had to happen because the Catholic took the path that is so not Christ-like. It was to get back to the original intention for the body of Christ. I'm one of those first group and you seem to be in that second group. Does that mean only the first group is saved? No, but there are so much more danger in that second group as I've been writing all these about.

You asked me about LGBT+. I already said clear and simple. Homosexuality is sin. Does our church allow it? No, we don't. Does that mean gays can't come to our church? No, it does not mean that. LGBT+ people can come to our church anytime (except it's C-19 era now). But what they need to hear is the gospel. And gospel says homosexuality is sin. If they're bothered by it and stops coming, that's their choice. But if they admit their sin and ask for help, then we're more than glad to help them in any way possible. That's the right way churches should react to LGBT+ in my opinion and also according to what the Bible says. Does every church do that? That's another topic.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

See... assumptions again. How do you know I'm not in the first group? Just because I don't see things the way you do? I can actually find Bible verses that support all my opinions... would that help?

Jesus was often criticized for not doing the "right" things. How do you know my heart to determine what group I am in?

You asked me about LGBT+. I already said clear and simple. Homosexuality is sin. Does our church allow it? No, we don't. Does that mean gays can't come to our church? No, it does not mean that. LGBT+ people can come to our church anytime (except it's C-19 era now). But what they need to hear is the gospel. And gospel says homosexuality is sin. If they're bothered by it and stops coming, that's their choice. But if they admit their sin and ask for help, then we're more than glad to help them in any way possible. That's the right way churches should react to LGBT+ in my opinion and also according to what the Bible says. Does every church do that? That's another topic.

What do you mean by "help"? Non-LBGT+ sin every day, maybe more so. Do we ask them to change who they are?

I think this is my issue with some churches, they try to push what they think is correct rather than try to understand them and adjust accordingly. That rigidity is what is harmful to any church.

That is the point of the Newsong video I posted. For some reason, you see loving people and learning to accept them is contrary to what the Bible teaches. At least, that's what my takeaway is.

 

[Mety]

See... assumptions again. How do you know I'm not in the first group? Just because I don't see things the way you do? I can actually find Bible verses that support all my opinions... would that help?

Jesus was often criticized for not doing the "right" things. How do you know my heart to determine what group I am in?

You asked me about LGBT+. I already said clear and simple. Homosexuality is sin. Does our church allow it? No, we don't. Does that mean gays can't come to our church? No, it does not mean that. LGBT+ people can come to our church anytime (except it's C-19 era now). But what they need to hear is the gospel. And gospel says homosexuality is sin. If they're bothered by it and stops coming, that's their choice. But if they admit their sin and ask for help, then we're more than glad to help them in any way possible. That's the right way churches should react to LGBT+ in my opinion and also according to what the Bible says. Does every church do that? That's another topic.

What do you mean by "help"? Non-LBGT+ sin every day, maybe more so. Do we ask them to change who they are?

I think this is my issue with some churches, they try to push what they think is correct rather than try to understand them and adjust accordingly. That rigidity is what is harmful to any church.

That is the point of the Newsong video I posted. For some reason, you see loving people and learning to accept them is contrary to what the Bible teaches. At least, that's what my takeaway is.

Yeah, you're right. I don't know if you're in the first or the second group. That's why I said you "seem to be" based on things you've been saying here. Which one you belong to? Only God knows.

Did I say non-LBGT+ would not need to change? ALL SINNERS need help and need to change. LBGT+ is just one of them. Isn't this why I've been saying the gospel is bothersome to everyone? I wasn't singling out any particular group like you're assuming here.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Read my post... I asked what do you mean by "help".

 

[irvinehomeowner]

I think we are digressing. I don't think our discussion is actually getting anywhere.

The original point of this thread was to get a feel for who believes in God or not. By the poll, the believers (whether it be God or some higher power) outweigh the non-believers.

But as qwerty said many pages ago (because he admitted in not believing in God... or has that changed?), that people only believe in God to explain things they fear or don't know about (I'm paraphrasing).

I think someone else posted that more intelligent people (not sure how that is defined) tend to not believe in God.

I can't fathom there not being a God. Is it really "When you die, you die" and that's it? (that was for qwerty )