God?

[Mety]

Thanks for responding.

I don't think the message there is about Jesus hanging out with "sinners." Of course He ate and drank with people, but I don't think it was just for the sake of "hanging out." He was there to accept and call those sinners into His Kingdom as you said. To accept and believe Him as a Savior is up to them and their heart to decide, but unfortunately many did/do not accept that as Jesus Himself pointed that out.

Also you need to understand that in those days, there was no internet and iphones and so many cultures and things to do like today.  Back in the day especially in the land of where Jews resided, they pretty much lived with the culture of God's words only. Talking about His words and worshiping Him were the majority of things people did. Since the religious leaders were not teaching the people correctly and only saw them as lower class and sick/diseased people, Jesus had to come and teach them correctly, accepting those so-called "sinner" and "sick." Jews taught with ambiguity, but Jesus taught very clearly until He started teaching with parables.

Sorry...what exactly are you trying to convey?  I am not even sure what you are pointing out or disagreeing with.  There is absolutely nothing wrong about "hanging out"...it's exactly what Jesus did in that verse.  He went there and hung out with the sinners. The mere fact that Jesus elected to even associate with them on any level is an incredible break from the norm.    Jesus modeled the concept of accepting people as they are, without conditions or lecturing.

I also don't know why you feel like I don't understand historical context.  I would disagree with you that people were so how more religious in Jesus' time especially since Israel was under Roman control.

The point of the message the verses you quoted is Jesus calls and accepts anyone even people consider as sinners or sick.
Hanging out part is really not what these verse are saying though I agree He did eat and drink with people, but that's not the focus and I know you would know as well.

No...it is exactly the point of the verse.  It is that a Christian should be with the sinners and accept them for who they are so that one can bring the Gospel to them. 

If Jesus just started preaching to them about how they are sinners...they would probably just walk away.  Instead, Jesus stopped and shared a meal with them, which if you are focusing on historical and social context is an extremely important (perhaps the most important) gesture.

Haha I love when you say just "No" like that. It almost happens every time. LOL
No disrespect to you. I just thought it was funny because that's always the first word in your post.

Re-read what I said and what you just replied. It's the same thing we are talking about. You just somehow assume or accuse me as if I'm saying Jesus screamed and yelled at people with so much anger and didn't care about them at all. That's not true and I hope you really understand it someday .

The point of the verse is Jesus called sinners and those sinners responded/accepted Him while the religious leaders did not accept and only pointed out why Jesus was hanging out with sinners. The contrary is the point as almost always was the case in all 4 gospels. Jesus is saying I'm not just hanging out with sinners as you assume or accuse.  Jesus is saying I'm accepting these so called sinners you would not consider as human beings while you were to love neighbor as yourself.

Again...why is "hanging out" something bad?  Why does it assume that "hanging out" is somehow not worth of Jesus?  Jesus also spent plenty of time with his family and friends...just to rest and talk.

I am seriously not understanding why you are making this a discussion.

1. I didn't say hanging out was bad. I mentioned multiples times I'm sure He did hangout with people.

2. Your assumption of Jesus spent plenty of time resting with family and friends is something not really mentioned in 4 gospels.

3. Jesus' presence and talking were the very Kingdom of God, preaching a message of Salvation.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

1. I didn't say hanging out was bad. I mentioned multiples times I'm sure He did hangout with people.

2. Your assumption of Jesus spent plenty of time resting with family and friends is something not really mentioned in 4 gospels.

3. Jesus' presence and talking were the very Kingdom of God, preaching a message of Salvation.

I am not at all understanding what you are arguing about at this point...actually I wasn't really sure what you were arguing about previously.

I didn't say he did it all the time, I said that there were plenty of examples in which Jesus went away in the Bible with friends and family just to be with them.  He didn't stop being Jesus during those times.

 

[Mety]

1. I didn't say hanging out was bad. I mentioned multiples times I'm sure He did hangout with people.

2. Your assumption of Jesus spent plenty of time resting with family and friends is something not really mentioned in 4 gospels.

3. Jesus' presence and talking were the very Kingdom of God, preaching a message of Salvation.

I am not at all understanding what you are arguing about at this point...actually I wasn't really sure what you were arguing about previously.

I didn't say he did it all the time, I said that there were plenty of examples in which Jesus went away in the Bible with friends and family just to be with them.  He didn't stop being Jesus during those times.

I can't find "plenty of examples in which Jesus went away in the Bible with friends and family" in any verses in 4 gospels. You keep saying He did so I thought you knew couple verses, but so far you haven't provided any either. It's only your assumption. What I can find Jesus did in a matter of "going away" was He kept going away to withdraw Himself from the crowd when they were trying to make Him King by their means, a political Messiah.

I'm only asking and talking about this matter because people have misconception of Jesus. Not a complete wrong concept of Him, but people think He was some kind of hipster who would just chill with people. This is a result of not knowing enough Bible especially about Jesus from the 4 gospels. Based on the 4 gospels, I believe His main ministry on earth was to preach the Kingdom by bringing up the importance of repentance and being born again by Him. Of course He did spend time with others. But I'm sure He always taught people about Kingdom since THAT is the biggest treasure one could have. When I say the word "taught" or "teaching" it's not like yelling and screaming condemning so please don't take it like that. I'm sure He taught with just general talking sense also.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

1. I didn't say hanging out was bad. I mentioned multiples times I'm sure He did hangout with people.

2. Your assumption of Jesus spent plenty of time resting with family and friends is something not really mentioned in 4 gospels.

3. Jesus' presence and talking were the very Kingdom of God, preaching a message of Salvation.

I am not at all understanding what you are arguing about at this point...actually I wasn't really sure what you were arguing about previously.

I didn't say he did it all the time, I said that there were plenty of examples in which Jesus went away in the Bible with friends and family just to be with them.  He didn't stop being Jesus during those times.

I can't find "plenty of examples in which Jesus went away in the Bible with friends and family" in any verses in 4 gospels. You keep saying He did so I thought you knew couple verses, but so far you haven't provided any either. It's only your assumption. What I can find Jesus did in a matter of "going away" was He kept going away to withdraw Himself from the crowd when they were trying to make Him King by their means, a political Messiah.

I'm only asking and talking about this matter because people have misconception of Jesus. Not a complete wrong concept of Him, but people think He was some kind of hipster who would just chill with people. This is a result of not knowing enough Bible especially about Jesus from the 4 gospels. Based on the 4 gospels, I believe His main ministry on earth was to preach the Kingdom by bringing up the importance of repentance and being born again by Him. Of course He did spend time with others. But I'm sure He always taught people about Kingdom since THAT is the biggest treasure one could have. When I say the word "taught" or "teaching" it's not like yelling and screaming condemning so please don't take it like that. I'm sure He taught with just general talking sense also.

I feel like you keep setting up strawman arguments/discussions just so you can knock them down. 

Pretty sure I have never used the term "yelling or screaming" in any of the posts on this topic.  Nor have I ever said that Jesus' main goal was something other than preaching the word of God and saving people.   

I am also not sure what this discussion has anything to do with my criticism that the use of the Bible as the definitive source to convince non-believers that they need saving.  Telling a non-believer that they need to repent because they have sinned in accordance with the Bible adds nothing to the equation.  Nonbelievers don't believe in the Bible, sin, or that they are doing something "wrong".

A much better way is to get to know non-believers and find out what troubles them in life and why they do not believe...then you can speak with them about God and salvation. 

 

[Mety]

1. I didn't say hanging out was bad. I mentioned multiples times I'm sure He did hangout with people.

2. Your assumption of Jesus spent plenty of time resting with family and friends is something not really mentioned in 4 gospels.

3. Jesus' presence and talking were the very Kingdom of God, preaching a message of Salvation.

I am not at all understanding what you are arguing about at this point...actually I wasn't really sure what you were arguing about previously.

I didn't say he did it all the time, I said that there were plenty of examples in which Jesus went away in the Bible with friends and family just to be with them.  He didn't stop being Jesus during those times.

I can't find "plenty of examples in which Jesus went away in the Bible with friends and family" in any verses in 4 gospels. You keep saying He did so I thought you knew couple verses, but so far you haven't provided any either. It's only your assumption. What I can find Jesus did in a matter of "going away" was He kept going away to withdraw Himself from the crowd when they were trying to make Him King by their means, a political Messiah.

I'm only asking and talking about this matter because people have misconception of Jesus. Not a complete wrong concept of Him, but people think He was some kind of hipster who would just chill with people. This is a result of not knowing enough Bible especially about Jesus from the 4 gospels. Based on the 4 gospels, I believe His main ministry on earth was to preach the Kingdom by bringing up the importance of repentance and being born again by Him. Of course He did spend time with others. But I'm sure He always taught people about Kingdom since THAT is the biggest treasure one could have. When I say the word "taught" or "teaching" it's not like yelling and screaming condemning so please don't take it like that. I'm sure He taught with just general talking sense also.

I feel like you keep setting up strawman arguments/discussions just so you can knock them down. 

Pretty sure I have never used the term "yelling or screaming" in any of the posts on this topic.  Nor have I ever said that Jesus' main goal was something other than preaching the word of God and saving people.   

I am also not sure what this discussion has anything to do with my criticism that the use of the Bible as the definitive source to convince non-believers that they need saving.  Telling a non-believer that they need to repent because they have sinned in accordance with the Bible adds nothing to the equation.  Nonbelievers don't believe in the Bible, sin, or that they are doing something "wrong".

A much better way is to get to know non-believers and find out what troubles them in life and why they do not believe...then you can speak with them about God and salvation.

I assume non-believers are not even looking at this thread like I'm not even looking at the political thread. This is a discussion among the believers so I guess that's where you kept misunderstanding me from.

My argument with you overall is that you post something I can't find in the Bible verses to back it up, so I ask you if it's something from the Bible. It was like that even from the Genesis/6-Day Creation issue. I only back my arguments with The Scriptures. You seem to have studied some more stuff outside the Bible sources so you keep bringing those up even the idea of Jesus was just hanging out with people.

It's an argument between you and me. I'm not involving non-believers here.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

I assume non-believers are not even looking at this thread like I'm not even looking at the political thread. This is a discussion among the believers so I guess that's where you kept misunderstanding me from.

My argument with you overall is that you post something I can't find in the Bible verses to back it up, so I ask you if it's something from the Bible. It was like that even from the Genesis/6-Day Creation issue. I only back my arguments with The Scriptures. You seem to have studied some more stuff outside the Bible sources so you keep bringing those up even the idea of Jesus was just hanging out with people.

It's an argument between you and me. I'm not involving non-believers here.

I quoted you scripture and gave you examples but you keep saying that you disagree with my interpretations.  I have not quoted any sources outside of the Bible.  You then keep setting up strawman arguments to knock down that have nothing to do with the original discussion point.  For example, I raised a concern that many Christians have a fundamental messaging problem when it comes to the Gospel and spreading the Word and somehow that went to a discussion about whether Jesus was or was not a hippie.

God gave us the Bible but also gave us the ability to think and be logical.  He gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us in our journey.  Jesus looked beyond the words of the Old Testament and preached and taught people through actions, words, and empathy. 

Honestly, discussing these matters with you is quite tiring because it appears that you keep dancing around the specific issues of dispute while trying to convince me that I am wrong or somehow spiritually misguided.  If you believe that my interpretation of the Bible is incorrect, that's your view.  I walk with God in my own manner and I cannot speak about how others should or should not walk.  I do take some offense to anyone who tells me that my relationship with God is somehow "wrong" or that I am somehow less of a Christian than them because I do not proscribe to their POV. 

 

[Mety]

I assume non-believers are not even looking at this thread like I'm not even looking at the political thread. This is a discussion among the believers so I guess that's where you kept misunderstanding me from.

My argument with you overall is that you post something I can't find in the Bible verses to back it up, so I ask you if it's something from the Bible. It was like that even from the Genesis/6-Day Creation issue. I only back my arguments with The Scriptures. You seem to have studied some more stuff outside the Bible sources so you keep bringing those up even the idea of Jesus was just hanging out with people.

It's an argument between you and me. I'm not involving non-believers here.

I quoted you scripture and gave you examples but you keep saying that you disagree with my interpretations.  I have not quoted any sources outside of the Bible.  You then keep setting up strawman arguments to knock down that have nothing to do with the original discussion point.  For example, I raised a concern that many Christians have a fundamental messaging problem when it comes to the Gospel and spreading the Word and somehow that went to a discussion about whether Jesus was or was not a hippie.

God gave us the Bible but also gave us the ability to think and be logical.  He gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us in our journey.  Jesus looked beyond the words of the Old Testament and preached and taught people through actions, words, and empathy. 

Honestly, discussing these matters with you is quite tiring because it appears that you keep dancing around the specific issues of dispute while trying to convince me that I am wrong or somehow spiritually misguided.  If you believe that my interpretation of the Bible is incorrect, that's your view.  I walk with God in my own manner and I cannot speak about how others should or should not walk.  I do take some offense to anyone who tells me that my relationship with God is somehow "wrong" or that I am somehow less of a Christian than them because I do not proscribe to their POV.

I have already gave you my position on delivering Christian message using the Bible. Having relationship and hanging out with people first are all good. But if you treasure the word of God the most as it is our God the Father's and His Son's message to us, I think sharing it is natural especially to those you really love. Doing so sow the seed that God will do the rest work to convert souls.

The importance of having relationship with people and finding common grounds, I even mentioned in couple posts ago that you seemed to have almost like a gift of hospitality so I encouraged you to continue to do so. The reason you mentioned Christians should do those is because you yourself might be doing those, right? Maybe you are more comfortable in that area as I'm more comfortable with sharing His words especially for platforms/forums like these since we are limited to use words only.

Yes, God gave us the ability to think and be logical. I would encourage you to use those to know Him more. Wouldn't that be a part of the greatest commandment to love Him with all our heart and soul and strength? God gave us those abilities to get closer to Him, not far away from Him. I'm not saying you are getting far away or you're not using those strength to know Him more. I'm only encouraging you as I would say that to any believer. Also your words like those could come as insulting me as if I'm not thinking and being logical. As much as I may have offended you, I could have taken your replies offensive every time. But I apologize if I offended your walk with God in any way. I only try to be clear on what the Bible is saying. I wasn't dancing around or trying to do strawman argument to prove you wrong or anything. Seems like your interpretation of those verses you quoted today is different than my interpretation. I will think upon your view also as I read those verses. I encourage you to view my interpretation as well if you are willing. Maybe both views are His message to us.

 

[Mety]

@Mety:

Maybe you should re-read the thread from the beginning... I just did and it's weird because I don't think I have found a resolution to this one issue that being a Christian weighs on me:

What happens to those who do not believe in Jesus but do believe in God?

One of the cornerstones of Christianity is that the only way to salvation is through belief in Jesus (I paraphrase) yet it is difficult for me to understand that the billions of other people who don't believe in Jesus will not be saved.

I actually feel that is un-Christian-like to think that way, which is the conundrum I have struggled with throughout this thread.

Outside of Christianity, the biggest religions don't believe in Jesus, whether by choice, upbringing, culture etc... so will they all be doomed to be without God for eternity? And this isn't even counting those who do not believe in God.

So you believe in God, but accepting Jesus as the only Savior is to be determined. Am I correct?
I will answer your other questions once you answer this.

For Christians, accepting Jesus as the one path to salvation is tantamount to being called a Christian. I cannot be otherwise.

However, I wonder what are God's plans for those who do not.

Ok, so I will take that as you are Christian. You do sound very Jewish as eyephone pointed out. Not saying that's bad. Just saying that since your view of questioning Jesus as the only way to salvation seemed that way. The reason I ask this is because if you're not Christian, all my posts might not make sense. Believing Jesus as that very I AM who spoke to Moses is the key difference from Christians to Jews. So if that is not agreed upon, whatever I say might not make sense to you (unless of course The Holy Spirit works through us).

What happens to those who do not believe in Jesus but do believe in God? I have answered this before in one of those long posts. I will assume you didn't bother reading so I will say again in a brief version.

If any person believes in God and seeks to know Him more, God will reveal His Son Jesus to that person. The OT saints have not seen Jesus walking on earth. But people like Moses and David, because they were humble and after God's own heart, had the privilege to either see a vision of or prophesy of Christ (I can point those verses if you want). God reveals Jesus to anyone who seeks Him with all heart, soul, and strength. Let's say there is a devout Jewish man who believes in God. If he really really believed in God and wanted to know Him more everyday walking with Him, studying His words, worshiping Him always, God will give knowledge and wisdom for that Jewish man to come to a knowledge of Jesus Christ and believe that the very OT was prophesying of Messiah or Christ is Jesus. Also the NT says there will come a day when Israel will call on the Name of the Lord, finally realizing Jesus as their Messiah.

Another way is that God also comes to those who may not seek Him at all. This is grace. By His sovereignty, He also reveals Himself. It could be through missionaries, some random person preaching gospel, or just by a pastor from a TV. God's ways are limitless so we can't think of the only way or the best way of how He comes. He will make Himself known to whoever He chooses to reveal Himself whether that person was seeking God or not. You seem to have much concern for people who believe in God but not in Jesus because it's sad to think they will go to hell. Well then doesn't that make you should be so much more equipped with His words to preach the good news to them so that they will also be saved? You might be that very channel God uses to proclaim the gospel and save others.

Those who are not able to make up their mind to decide on believing God or Jesus are also under His grace. Such examples could be infants dying early and people born with disabilities who can't think/reason like us. I can also give you verses on these if you want. God always provides His grace to anyone at His will which is He wants no one to die in their own sin. This is not to say there is no hell or God will save everyone eventually. Though He does want to save everyone, those who reject God are really not in place of sharing His glory. Those who end up going hell are really because they chose to end up there themselves. It's because they loved their sin rather than loving God.

 

[Happiness]

Which of the following is true:

1. People ignorant of Christianity are going to hell so we should try to make them believers to save at least some of them.

2. People ignorant of Christianity are not going to hell but if they learn about Christianity and refuse to believe, then they are going to hell.

 

[Mety]

Which of the following is true:

1. People ignorant of Christianity are going to hell so we should try to make them believers to save at least some of them.

2. People ignorant of Christianity are not going to hell but if they learn about Christianity and refuse to believe, then they are going to hell.

Number 1 is closer to being true though we can?t really ?make? anyone to believe, we should sow the seed, meaning proclaim the gospel. How that person who heard the good news becomes a real believer is really up to God. We can only seed or plant, then it works in the soil to grow. We can of course help that person grow, but really it?s the soil that determines how it grows. This is one of examples Jesus used. I can explain further if you want to know more.

The latter part of the number 2 is also true though just learning about Christianity could be totally different than hearing the good news, hearing His words. Those who are fully exposed to listen to His words yet refuse to believe are because they want to enjoy their sin rather than to reside in truth.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Ok, so I will take that as you are Christian. You do sound very Jewish as eyephone pointed out. Not saying that's bad. Just saying that since your view of questioning Jesus as the only way to salvation seemed that way.

Maybe you're not reading my posts. Not once did I question Jesus as the only way to salvation, what I questioned is what happens to those who don't believe in Jesus. And if I was Jewish, why would I be quoting New Testament scripture? And why couldn't I be Muslim? Or Buddhist? Or Mormon?

If any person believes in God and seeks to know Him more, God will reveal His Son Jesus to that person. The OT saints have not seen Jesus walking on earth. But people like Moses and David, because they were humble and after God's own heart, had the privilege to either see a vision of or prophesy of Christ (I can point those verses if you want). God reveals Jesus to anyone who seeks Him with all heart, soul, and strength. Let's say there is a devout Jewish man who believes in God. If he really really believed in God and wanted to know Him more everyday walking with Him, studying His words, worshiping Him always, God will give knowledge and wisdom for that Jewish man to come to a knowledge of Jesus Christ and believe that the very OT was prophesying of Messiah or Christ is Jesus. Also the NT says there will come a day when Israel will call on the Name of the Lord, finally realizing Jesus as their Messiah.

But what happens if they don't realize this? Does that mean they don't really believe in God?

Another way is that God also comes to those who may not seek Him at all. This is grace. By His sovereignty, He also reveals Himself. It could be through missionaries, some random person preaching gospel, or just by a pastor from a TV. God's ways are limitless so we can't think of the only way or the best way of how He comes. He will make Himself known to whoever He chooses to reveal Himself whether that person was seeking God or not. You seem to have much concern for people who believe in God but not in Jesus because it's sad to think they will go to hell. Well then doesn't that make you should be so much more equipped with His words to preach the good news to them so that they will also be saved? You might be that very channel God uses to proclaim the gospel and save others.

This goes back to my previous posts of imposition. Just like this thread, Jews/Muslims/whoever think that their version of faith is "correct", we think ours is... it's a stalemate.

Those who are not able to make up their mind to decide on believing God or Jesus are also under His grace. Such examples could be infants dying early and people born with disabilities who can't think/reason like us. I can also give you verses on these if you want. God always provides His grace to anyone at His will which is He wants no one to die in their own sin. This is not to say there is no hell or God will save everyone eventually. Though He does want to save everyone, those who reject God are really not in place of sharing His glory. Those who end up going hell are really because they chose to end up there themselves. It's because they loved their sin rather than loving God.

It can be argued that those who do not believe in (or have not even heard of) Jesus due to cultural/religious reasons are in the same boat as a newborn who dies early, disabled people etc... aren't they also able to receive God's grace and be saved?

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Which of the following is true:

1. People ignorant of Christianity are going to hell so we should try to make them believers to save at least some of them.

We shouldn't spread the word because they are going to hell, we should spread the word to show them heaven... I am a firm believer that heaven is here and now for those who follow God and Jesus. You don't have to die to experience living with God.

2. People ignorant of Christianity are not going to hell but if they learn about Christianity and refuse to believe, then they are going to hell.

This is similar to my question about those who believe in God but do not believe in Jesus. By the same token, this also applies to people who live just, moral, giving lives (by society's definition) but do not believe in a higher power at all.

 

[eyephone]

Mety: I?m not judging, I was just guessing. Does that person who you are talking about believe in medicine? Does he eat shellfish? Does he think it?s not okay to play musical instruments in church?

@Mety:

Maybe you should re-read the thread from the beginning... I just did and it's weird because I don't think I have found a resolution to this one issue that being a Christian weighs on me:

What happens to those who do not believe in Jesus but do believe in God?

One of the cornerstones of Christianity is that the only way to salvation is through belief in Jesus (I paraphrase) yet it is difficult for me to understand that the billions of other people who don't believe in Jesus will not be saved.

I actually feel that is un-Christian-like to think that way, which is the conundrum I have struggled with throughout this thread.

Outside of Christianity, the biggest religions don't believe in Jesus, whether by choice, upbringing, culture etc... so will they all be doomed to be without God for eternity? And this isn't even counting those who do not believe in God.

So you believe in God, but accepting Jesus as the only Savior is to be determined. Am I correct?
I will answer your other questions once you answer this.

For Christians, accepting Jesus as the one path to salvation is tantamount to being called a Christian. I cannot be otherwise.

However, I wonder what are God's plans for those who do not.

Ok, so I will take that as you are Christian. You do sound very Jewish as eyephone pointed out. Not saying that's bad. Just saying that since your view of questioning Jesus as the only way to salvation seemed that way. The reason I ask this is because if you're not Christian, all my posts might not make sense. Believing Jesus as that very I AM who spoke to Moses is the key difference from Christians to Jews. So if that is not agreed upon, whatever I say might not make sense to you (unless of course The Holy Spirit works through us).

What happens to those who do not believe in Jesus but do believe in God? I have answered this before in one of those long posts. I will assume you didn't bother reading so I will say again in a brief version.

If any person believes in God and seeks to know Him more, God will reveal His Son Jesus to that person. The OT saints have not seen Jesus walking on earth. But people like Moses and David, because they were humble and after God's own heart, had the privilege to either see a vision of or prophesy of Christ (I can point those verses if you want). God reveals Jesus to anyone who seeks Him with all heart, soul, and strength. Let's say there is a devout Jewish man who believes in God. If he really really believed in God and wanted to know Him more everyday walking with Him, studying His words, worshiping Him always, God will give knowledge and wisdom for that Jewish man to come to a knowledge of Jesus Christ and believe that the very OT was prophesying of Messiah or Christ is Jesus. Also the NT says there will come a day when Israel will call on the Name of the Lord, finally realizing Jesus as their Messiah.

Another way is that God also comes to those who may not seek Him at all. This is grace. By His sovereignty, He also reveals Himself. It could be through missionaries, some random person preaching gospel, or just by a pastor from a TV. God's ways are limitless so we can't think of the only way or the best way of how He comes. He will make Himself known to whoever He chooses to reveal Himself whether that person was seeking God or not. You seem to have much concern for people who believe in God but not in Jesus because it's sad to think they will go to hell. Well then doesn't that make you should be so much more equipped with His words to preach the good news to them so that they will also be saved? You might be that very channel God uses to proclaim the gospel and save others.

Those who are not able to make up their mind to decide on believing God or Jesus are also under His grace. Such examples could be infants dying early and people born with disabilities who can't think/reason like us. I can also give you verses on these if you want. God always provides His grace to anyone at His will which is He wants no one to die in their own sin. This is not to say there is no hell or God will save everyone eventually. Though He does want to save everyone, those who reject God are really not in place of sharing His glory. Those who end up going hell are really because they chose to end up there themselves. It's because they loved their sin rather than loving God.

 

[Mety]

Mety: I?m not judging, I was just guessing. Does that person who you are talking about believe in medicine? Does he eat shellfish? Does he think it?s not okay to play musical instruments in church?

@Mety:

Maybe you should re-read the thread from the beginning... I just did and it's weird because I don't think I have found a resolution to this one issue that being a Christian weighs on me:

What happens to those who do not believe in Jesus but do believe in God?

One of the cornerstones of Christianity is that the only way to salvation is through belief in Jesus (I paraphrase) yet it is difficult for me to understand that the billions of other people who don't believe in Jesus will not be saved.

I actually feel that is un-Christian-like to think that way, which is the conundrum I have struggled with throughout this thread.

Outside of Christianity, the biggest religions don't believe in Jesus, whether by choice, upbringing, culture etc... so will they all be doomed to be without God for eternity? And this isn't even counting those who do not believe in God.

So you believe in God, but accepting Jesus as the only Savior is to be determined. Am I correct?
I will answer your other questions once you answer this.

For Christians, accepting Jesus as the one path to salvation is tantamount to being called a Christian. I cannot be otherwise.

However, I wonder what are God's plans for those who do not.

Ok, so I will take that as you are Christian. You do sound very Jewish as eyephone pointed out. Not saying that's bad. Just saying that since your view of questioning Jesus as the only way to salvation seemed that way. The reason I ask this is because if you're not Christian, all my posts might not make sense. Believing Jesus as that very I AM who spoke to Moses is the key difference from Christians to Jews. So if that is not agreed upon, whatever I say might not make sense to you (unless of course The Holy Spirit works through us).

What happens to those who do not believe in Jesus but do believe in God? I have answered this before in one of those long posts. I will assume you didn't bother reading so I will say again in a brief version.

If any person believes in God and seeks to know Him more, God will reveal His Son Jesus to that person. The OT saints have not seen Jesus walking on earth. But people like Moses and David, because they were humble and after God's own heart, had the privilege to either see a vision of or prophesy of Christ (I can point those verses if you want). God reveals Jesus to anyone who seeks Him with all heart, soul, and strength. Let's say there is a devout Jewish man who believes in God. If he really really believed in God and wanted to know Him more everyday walking with Him, studying His words, worshiping Him always, God will give knowledge and wisdom for that Jewish man to come to a knowledge of Jesus Christ and believe that the very OT was prophesying of Messiah or Christ is Jesus. Also the NT says there will come a day when Israel will call on the Name of the Lord, finally realizing Jesus as their Messiah.

Another way is that God also comes to those who may not seek Him at all. This is grace. By His sovereignty, He also reveals Himself. It could be through missionaries, some random person preaching gospel, or just by a pastor from a TV. God's ways are limitless so we can't think of the only way or the best way of how He comes. He will make Himself known to whoever He chooses to reveal Himself whether that person was seeking God or not. You seem to have much concern for people who believe in God but not in Jesus because it's sad to think they will go to hell. Well then doesn't that make you should be so much more equipped with His words to preach the good news to them so that they will also be saved? You might be that very channel God uses to proclaim the gospel and save others.

Those who are not able to make up their mind to decide on believing God or Jesus are also under His grace. Such examples could be infants dying early and people born with disabilities who can't think/reason like us. I can also give you verses on these if you want. God always provides His grace to anyone at His will which is He wants no one to die in their own sin. This is not to say there is no hell or God will save everyone eventually. Though He does want to save everyone, those who reject God are really not in place of sharing His glory. Those who end up going hell are really because they chose to end up there themselves. It's because they loved their sin rather than loving God.

You mean is it ok for a Jesus believer to take medicines, eat shellfish or play instruments in church?

Yes, those are all God's given common grace to everyone whether you are a believer or not. Using/taking those are freely given to us to enjoy and we can give God the glory for those.

However, if eating certain stuff in front of certain people are offensive to them, then we should use God's wisdom to self control to be careful for them. Apostle Paul wrote about this in the New Testament which I can get in detail if you ask, but what it's saying is while we have freedom, we should use it wisely to win every possible soul to Christ.

 

[eyephone]

Mety: I?m not judging, I was just guessing. Does that person who you are talking about believe in medicine? Does he eat shellfish? Does he think it?s not okay to play musical instruments in church?

@Mety:

Maybe you should re-read the thread from the beginning... I just did and it's weird because I don't think I have found a resolution to this one issue that being a Christian weighs on me:

What happens to those who do not believe in Jesus but do believe in God?

One of the cornerstones of Christianity is that the only way to salvation is through belief in Jesus (I paraphrase) yet it is difficult for me to understand that the billions of other people who don't believe in Jesus will not be saved.

I actually feel that is un-Christian-like to think that way, which is the conundrum I have struggled with throughout this thread.

Outside of Christianity, the biggest religions don't believe in Jesus, whether by choice, upbringing, culture etc... so will they all be doomed to be without God for eternity? And this isn't even counting those who do not believe in God.

So you believe in God, but accepting Jesus as the only Savior is to be determined. Am I correct?
I will answer your other questions once you answer this.

For Christians, accepting Jesus as the one path to salvation is tantamount to being called a Christian. I cannot be otherwise.

However, I wonder what are God's plans for those who do not.

Ok, so I will take that as you are Christian. You do sound very Jewish as eyephone pointed out. Not saying that's bad. Just saying that since your view of questioning Jesus as the only way to salvation seemed that way. The reason I ask this is because if you're not Christian, all my posts might not make sense. Believing Jesus as that very I AM who spoke to Moses is the key difference from Christians to Jews. So if that is not agreed upon, whatever I say might not make sense to you (unless of course The Holy Spirit works through us).

What happens to those who do not believe in Jesus but do believe in God? I have answered this before in one of those long posts. I will assume you didn't bother reading so I will say again in a brief version.

If any person believes in God and seeks to know Him more, God will reveal His Son Jesus to that person. The OT saints have not seen Jesus walking on earth. But people like Moses and David, because they were humble and after God's own heart, had the privilege to either see a vision of or prophesy of Christ (I can point those verses if you want). God reveals Jesus to anyone who seeks Him with all heart, soul, and strength. Let's say there is a devout Jewish man who believes in God. If he really really believed in God and wanted to know Him more everyday walking with Him, studying His words, worshiping Him always, God will give knowledge and wisdom for that Jewish man to come to a knowledge of Jesus Christ and believe that the very OT was prophesying of Messiah or Christ is Jesus. Also the NT says there will come a day when Israel will call on the Name of the Lord, finally realizing Jesus as their Messiah.

Another way is that God also comes to those who may not seek Him at all. This is grace. By His sovereignty, He also reveals Himself. It could be through missionaries, some random person preaching gospel, or just by a pastor from a TV. God's ways are limitless so we can't think of the only way or the best way of how He comes. He will make Himself known to whoever He chooses to reveal Himself whether that person was seeking God or not. You seem to have much concern for people who believe in God but not in Jesus because it's sad to think they will go to hell. Well then doesn't that make you should be so much more equipped with His words to preach the good news to them so that they will also be saved? You might be that very channel God uses to proclaim the gospel and save others.

Those who are not able to make up their mind to decide on believing God or Jesus are also under His grace. Such examples could be infants dying early and people born with disabilities who can't think/reason like us. I can also give you verses on these if you want. God always provides His grace to anyone at His will which is He wants no one to die in their own sin. This is not to say there is no hell or God will save everyone eventually. Though He does want to save everyone, those who reject God are really not in place of sharing His glory. Those who end up going hell are really because they chose to end up there themselves. It's because they loved their sin rather than loving God.

You mean is it ok for a Jesus believer to take medicines, eat shellfish or play instruments in church?

Yes, those are all God's given common grace to everyone whether you are a believer or not. Using/taking those are freely given to us to enjoy and we can give God the glory for those.

However, if eating certain stuff in front of certain people are offensive to them, then we should use God's wisdom to self control to be careful for them. Apostle Paul wrote about this in the New Testament which I can get in detail if you ask, but what it's saying is while we have freedom, we should use it wisely to win every possible soul to Christ.

We are talking about different things. If you research the questions I asked. Then you will understand my question.

Hint: I?m not talking about the Bible, but what people believe. (allegedly)

 

[Mety]

Mety: I?m not judging, I was just guessing. Does that person who you are talking about believe in medicine? Does he eat shellfish? Does he think it?s not okay to play musical instruments in church?

@Mety:

Maybe you should re-read the thread from the beginning... I just did and it's weird because I don't think I have found a resolution to this one issue that being a Christian weighs on me:

What happens to those who do not believe in Jesus but do believe in God?

One of the cornerstones of Christianity is that the only way to salvation is through belief in Jesus (I paraphrase) yet it is difficult for me to understand that the billions of other people who don't believe in Jesus will not be saved.

I actually feel that is un-Christian-like to think that way, which is the conundrum I have struggled with throughout this thread.

Outside of Christianity, the biggest religions don't believe in Jesus, whether by choice, upbringing, culture etc... so will they all be doomed to be without God for eternity? And this isn't even counting those who do not believe in God.

So you believe in God, but accepting Jesus as the only Savior is to be determined. Am I correct?
I will answer your other questions once you answer this.

For Christians, accepting Jesus as the one path to salvation is tantamount to being called a Christian. I cannot be otherwise.

However, I wonder what are God's plans for those who do not.

Ok, so I will take that as you are Christian. You do sound very Jewish as eyephone pointed out. Not saying that's bad. Just saying that since your view of questioning Jesus as the only way to salvation seemed that way. The reason I ask this is because if you're not Christian, all my posts might not make sense. Believing Jesus as that very I AM who spoke to Moses is the key difference from Christians to Jews. So if that is not agreed upon, whatever I say might not make sense to you (unless of course The Holy Spirit works through us).

What happens to those who do not believe in Jesus but do believe in God? I have answered this before in one of those long posts. I will assume you didn't bother reading so I will say again in a brief version.

If any person believes in God and seeks to know Him more, God will reveal His Son Jesus to that person. The OT saints have not seen Jesus walking on earth. But people like Moses and David, because they were humble and after God's own heart, had the privilege to either see a vision of or prophesy of Christ (I can point those verses if you want). God reveals Jesus to anyone who seeks Him with all heart, soul, and strength. Let's say there is a devout Jewish man who believes in God. If he really really believed in God and wanted to know Him more everyday walking with Him, studying His words, worshiping Him always, God will give knowledge and wisdom for that Jewish man to come to a knowledge of Jesus Christ and believe that the very OT was prophesying of Messiah or Christ is Jesus. Also the NT says there will come a day when Israel will call on the Name of the Lord, finally realizing Jesus as their Messiah.

Another way is that God also comes to those who may not seek Him at all. This is grace. By His sovereignty, He also reveals Himself. It could be through missionaries, some random person preaching gospel, or just by a pastor from a TV. God's ways are limitless so we can't think of the only way or the best way of how He comes. He will make Himself known to whoever He chooses to reveal Himself whether that person was seeking God or not. You seem to have much concern for people who believe in God but not in Jesus because it's sad to think they will go to hell. Well then doesn't that make you should be so much more equipped with His words to preach the good news to them so that they will also be saved? You might be that very channel God uses to proclaim the gospel and save others.

Those who are not able to make up their mind to decide on believing God or Jesus are also under His grace. Such examples could be infants dying early and people born with disabilities who can't think/reason like us. I can also give you verses on these if you want. God always provides His grace to anyone at His will which is He wants no one to die in their own sin. This is not to say there is no hell or God will save everyone eventually. Though He does want to save everyone, those who reject God are really not in place of sharing His glory. Those who end up going hell are really because they chose to end up there themselves. It's because they loved their sin rather than loving God.

You mean is it ok for a Jesus believer to take medicines, eat shellfish or play instruments in church?

Yes, those are all God's given common grace to everyone whether you are a believer or not. Using/taking those are freely given to us to enjoy and we can give God the glory for those.

However, if eating certain stuff in front of certain people are offensive to them, then we should use God's wisdom to self control to be careful for them. Apostle Paul wrote about this in the New Testament which I can get in detail if you ask, but what it's saying is while we have freedom, we should use it wisely to win every possible soul to Christ.

We are talking about different things. If you research the questions I asked. Then you will understand my question.

Hint: I?m not talking about the Bible, but what people believe. (allegedly)

Who you talkin about?
IHO? SoCal? or Belly Fever?

 

[eyephone]

Mety: I?m not judging, I was just guessing. Does that person who you are talking about believe in medicine? Does he eat shellfish? Does he think it?s not okay to play musical instruments in church?

@Mety:

Maybe you should re-read the thread from the beginning... I just did and it's weird because I don't think I have found a resolution to this one issue that being a Christian weighs on me:

What happens to those who do not believe in Jesus but do believe in God?

One of the cornerstones of Christianity is that the only way to salvation is through belief in Jesus (I paraphrase) yet it is difficult for me to understand that the billions of other people who don't believe in Jesus will not be saved.

I actually feel that is un-Christian-like to think that way, which is the conundrum I have struggled with throughout this thread.

Outside of Christianity, the biggest religions don't believe in Jesus, whether by choice, upbringing, culture etc... so will they all be doomed to be without God for eternity? And this isn't even counting those who do not believe in God.

So you believe in God, but accepting Jesus as the only Savior is to be determined. Am I correct?
I will answer your other questions once you answer this.

For Christians, accepting Jesus as the one path to salvation is tantamount to being called a Christian. I cannot be otherwise.

However, I wonder what are God's plans for those who do not.

Ok, so I will take that as you are Christian. You do sound very Jewish as eyephone pointed out. Not saying that's bad. Just saying that since your view of questioning Jesus as the only way to salvation seemed that way. The reason I ask this is because if you're not Christian, all my posts might not make sense. Believing Jesus as that very I AM who spoke to Moses is the key difference from Christians to Jews. So if that is not agreed upon, whatever I say might not make sense to you (unless of course The Holy Spirit works through us).

What happens to those who do not believe in Jesus but do believe in God? I have answered this before in one of those long posts. I will assume you didn't bother reading so I will say again in a brief version.

If any person believes in God and seeks to know Him more, God will reveal His Son Jesus to that person. The OT saints have not seen Jesus walking on earth. But people like Moses and David, because they were humble and after God's own heart, had the privilege to either see a vision of or prophesy of Christ (I can point those verses if you want). God reveals Jesus to anyone who seeks Him with all heart, soul, and strength. Let's say there is a devout Jewish man who believes in God. If he really really believed in God and wanted to know Him more everyday walking with Him, studying His words, worshiping Him always, God will give knowledge and wisdom for that Jewish man to come to a knowledge of Jesus Christ and believe that the very OT was prophesying of Messiah or Christ is Jesus. Also the NT says there will come a day when Israel will call on the Name of the Lord, finally realizing Jesus as their Messiah.

Another way is that God also comes to those who may not seek Him at all. This is grace. By His sovereignty, He also reveals Himself. It could be through missionaries, some random person preaching gospel, or just by a pastor from a TV. God's ways are limitless so we can't think of the only way or the best way of how He comes. He will make Himself known to whoever He chooses to reveal Himself whether that person was seeking God or not. You seem to have much concern for people who believe in God but not in Jesus because it's sad to think they will go to hell. Well then doesn't that make you should be so much more equipped with His words to preach the good news to them so that they will also be saved? You might be that very channel God uses to proclaim the gospel and save others.

Those who are not able to make up their mind to decide on believing God or Jesus are also under His grace. Such examples could be infants dying early and people born with disabilities who can't think/reason like us. I can also give you verses on these if you want. God always provides His grace to anyone at His will which is He wants no one to die in their own sin. This is not to say there is no hell or God will save everyone eventually. Though He does want to save everyone, those who reject God are really not in place of sharing His glory. Those who end up going hell are really because they chose to end up there themselves. It's because they loved their sin rather than loving God.

You mean is it ok for a Jesus believer to take medicines, eat shellfish or play instruments in church?

Yes, those are all God's given common grace to everyone whether you are a believer or not. Using/taking those are freely given to us to enjoy and we can give God the glory for those.

However, if eating certain stuff in front of certain people are offensive to them, then we should use God's wisdom to self control to be careful for them. Apostle Paul wrote about this in the New Testament which I can get in detail if you ask, but what it's saying is while we have freedom, we should use it wisely to win every possible soul to Christ.

We are talking about different things. If you research the questions I asked. Then you will understand my question.

Hint: I?m not talking about the Bible, but what people believe. (allegedly)

Who you talkin about?
IHO? SoCal? or Belly Fever?

Not them at all.

 

[Mety]

Mety: I?m not judging, I was just guessing. Does that person who you are talking about believe in medicine? Does he eat shellfish? Does he think it?s not okay to play musical instruments in church?

@Mety:

Maybe you should re-read the thread from the beginning... I just did and it's weird because I don't think I have found a resolution to this one issue that being a Christian weighs on me:

What happens to those who do not believe in Jesus but do believe in God?

One of the cornerstones of Christianity is that the only way to salvation is through belief in Jesus (I paraphrase) yet it is difficult for me to understand that the billions of other people who don't believe in Jesus will not be saved.

I actually feel that is un-Christian-like to think that way, which is the conundrum I have struggled with throughout this thread.

Outside of Christianity, the biggest religions don't believe in Jesus, whether by choice, upbringing, culture etc... so will they all be doomed to be without God for eternity? And this isn't even counting those who do not believe in God.

So you believe in God, but accepting Jesus as the only Savior is to be determined. Am I correct?
I will answer your other questions once you answer this.

For Christians, accepting Jesus as the one path to salvation is tantamount to being called a Christian. I cannot be otherwise.

However, I wonder what are God's plans for those who do not.

Ok, so I will take that as you are Christian. You do sound very Jewish as eyephone pointed out. Not saying that's bad. Just saying that since your view of questioning Jesus as the only way to salvation seemed that way. The reason I ask this is because if you're not Christian, all my posts might not make sense. Believing Jesus as that very I AM who spoke to Moses is the key difference from Christians to Jews. So if that is not agreed upon, whatever I say might not make sense to you (unless of course The Holy Spirit works through us).

What happens to those who do not believe in Jesus but do believe in God? I have answered this before in one of those long posts. I will assume you didn't bother reading so I will say again in a brief version.

If any person believes in God and seeks to know Him more, God will reveal His Son Jesus to that person. The OT saints have not seen Jesus walking on earth. But people like Moses and David, because they were humble and after God's own heart, had the privilege to either see a vision of or prophesy of Christ (I can point those verses if you want). God reveals Jesus to anyone who seeks Him with all heart, soul, and strength. Let's say there is a devout Jewish man who believes in God. If he really really believed in God and wanted to know Him more everyday walking with Him, studying His words, worshiping Him always, God will give knowledge and wisdom for that Jewish man to come to a knowledge of Jesus Christ and believe that the very OT was prophesying of Messiah or Christ is Jesus. Also the NT says there will come a day when Israel will call on the Name of the Lord, finally realizing Jesus as their Messiah.

Another way is that God also comes to those who may not seek Him at all. This is grace. By His sovereignty, He also reveals Himself. It could be through missionaries, some random person preaching gospel, or just by a pastor from a TV. God's ways are limitless so we can't think of the only way or the best way of how He comes. He will make Himself known to whoever He chooses to reveal Himself whether that person was seeking God or not. You seem to have much concern for people who believe in God but not in Jesus because it's sad to think they will go to hell. Well then doesn't that make you should be so much more equipped with His words to preach the good news to them so that they will also be saved? You might be that very channel God uses to proclaim the gospel and save others.

Those who are not able to make up their mind to decide on believing God or Jesus are also under His grace. Such examples could be infants dying early and people born with disabilities who can't think/reason like us. I can also give you verses on these if you want. God always provides His grace to anyone at His will which is He wants no one to die in their own sin. This is not to say there is no hell or God will save everyone eventually. Though He does want to save everyone, those who reject God are really not in place of sharing His glory. Those who end up going hell are really because they chose to end up there themselves. It's because they loved their sin rather than loving God.

You mean is it ok for a Jesus believer to take medicines, eat shellfish or play instruments in church?

Yes, those are all God's given common grace to everyone whether you are a believer or not. Using/taking those are freely given to us to enjoy and we can give God the glory for those.

However, if eating certain stuff in front of certain people are offensive to them, then we should use God's wisdom to self control to be careful for them. Apostle Paul wrote about this in the New Testament which I can get in detail if you ask, but what it's saying is while we have freedom, we should use it wisely to win every possible soul to Christ.

We are talking about different things. If you research the questions I asked. Then you will understand my question.

Hint: I?m not talking about the Bible, but what people believe. (allegedly)

Who you talkin about?
IHO? SoCal? or Belly Fever?

Not them at all.

Man, it's Friday. I'm afraid I'm not completely understanding your question.

 

[Mety]

Ok, so I will take that as you are Christian. You do sound very Jewish as eyephone pointed out. Not saying that's bad. Just saying that since your view of questioning Jesus as the only way to salvation seemed that way.

Maybe you're not reading my posts. Not once did I question Jesus as the only way to salvation, what I questioned is what happens to those who don't believe in Jesus. And if I was Jewish, why would I be quoting New Testament scripture? And why couldn't I be Muslim? Or Buddhist? Or Mormon?

It is very possible a non-Christian would know the Bible verses. But if you are Christian, then you are Christian. 

If any person believes in God and seeks to know Him more, God will reveal His Son Jesus to that person. The OT saints have not seen Jesus walking on earth. But people like Moses and David, because they were humble and after God's own heart, had the privilege to either see a vision of or prophesy of Christ (I can point those verses if you want). God reveals Jesus to anyone who seeks Him with all heart, soul, and strength. Let's say there is a devout Jewish man who believes in God. If he really really believed in God and wanted to know Him more everyday walking with Him, studying His words, worshiping Him always, God will give knowledge and wisdom for that Jewish man to come to a knowledge of Jesus Christ and believe that the very OT was prophesying of Messiah or Christ is Jesus. Also the NT says there will come a day when Israel will call on the Name of the Lord, finally realizing Jesus as their Messiah.

But what happens if they don't realize this? Does that mean they don't really believe in God?

It's really up to God to have someone believe in Jesus. Our part is spreading the gospel (with of course having fellowships and loving one another). Jesus is the vine, we are the branches. Only the vine dresser, God the Father, in this example, brings forth the fruit. We can only remain in the vine. We ourselves can't really do this job of converting people Christian. Why am I saying this here? Because we need to know God is in control of saving His people. "What if this and that" kind of question is kind of pointless worrying since that is really in God's territory and we Christians are not to worry but keep praying, loving, and spreading His words with believing that He is fully in control. If you feel the need of spreading more eagerly to reach out to those people who may have not had a chance to hear the gospel, then that's your calling.

Another way is that God also comes to those who may not seek Him at all. This is grace. By His sovereignty, He also reveals Himself. It could be through missionaries, some random person preaching gospel, or just by a pastor from a TV. God's ways are limitless so we can't think of the only way or the best way of how He comes. He will make Himself known to whoever He chooses to reveal Himself whether that person was seeking God or not. You seem to have much concern for people who believe in God but not in Jesus because it's sad to think they will go to hell. Well then doesn't that make you should be so much more equipped with His words to preach the good news to them so that they will also be saved? You might be that very channel God uses to proclaim the gospel and save others.

This goes back to my previous posts of imposition. Just like this thread, Jews/Muslims/whoever think that their version of faith is "correct", we think ours is... it's a stalemate.

We as Christians are to believe Jesus is the only way to salvation. That means (this may sound offensive to some) we are in the "right" whereas people with other religions are in the wrong. BUT AGAIN, that is not because we are right. It's because God CHOSE us to be in the right. This is another reason we are called to spread the gospel so that people will come to know the truth and further remain in the truth. But when the truth is proclaimed, the world doesn't always welcome since Satan will try to stop this at all costs. While other religions might persecute, we are the ones who might GET persecuted. That is also another main difference of Christianity from other religions.

Those who are not able to make up their mind to decide on believing God or Jesus are also under His grace. Such examples could be infants dying early and people born with disabilities who can't think/reason like us. I can also give you verses on these if you want. God always provides His grace to anyone at His will which is He wants no one to die in their own sin. This is not to say there is no hell or God will save everyone eventually. Though He does want to save everyone, those who reject God are really not in place of sharing His glory. Those who end up going hell are really because they chose to end up there themselves. It's because they loved their sin rather than loving God.

It can be argued that those who do not believe in (or have not even heard of) Jesus due to cultural/religious reasons are in the same boat as a newborn who dies early, disabled people etc... aren't they also able to receive God's grace and be saved?

This is another one that is in God's territory. God knows who are saved and He will MAKE SURE to save those He chose to be saved.

I think you have said it's really hard not to believe in God than to believe. It's because we can see that through the nature, the universe and even the very people with cells and how perfectly everything functions in a way it does. One can only conclude there has to be a Creator, someone who is in control. This is the very beginning that one can start to seek God. He/she may keep wondering upon this thought and even worship God in a way. If that worship is genuine, I believe God WILL make sure to come visit that person. Enoch and Job are examples from the OT who had no knowledge or whatsoever of the Law or anything like that but feared God and called on the Name of the Lord so that He saved them, one has not even experienced death. Others around them at the time must have had a thought of how they loved God and God loved them. That was their way of preaching/spreading the good news of God who saves, which means they all had their chances of hearing the gospel.

 

[Mety]

Ok, so I'm re-reading this thread from the beginning as IHO suggested. I will try to answer questions asked. I will also try to comment here and there as needed.

Arguments for a "God":

• This earth works too well to be created by chance. When we find the Egyptian pyramids, do we think they were created by chance?
• Life (including insects) is so incredible that science has not come even close to duplicating it.

Arguments against a "God":

• Who created him?
• Why is there a lot of suffering in this world if he is all powerful?

Who created God?
God is a self existing One. He said "I AM WHO I AM" when Moses asked what His Name was. Usual response of any created person like us would say "I was born in such and such and I grew up here and there." We can't say "I am who I am," but that was God's response when asked of Him. No one created Him or is above Him. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One God. The Father didn't create the Son. The Spirit was not created by anyone either. God said on the 6th day of the earth, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." indicating that God is Three in One, self existing already.

Why so much suffering in this world?
This is precisely because of the "sin" that's brought into the world. God clearly warned Adam not to eat the certain apple in the garden because that would be the only way Adam would recognize that God created him and his obedience would be his worship to God. But Adam's disobedience was the sin thus brought forth into this "good" world God first originated, destroyed by the Satan's deception. God is also allowing Satan to rule over this world for now until Jesus Christ returns and destroys him completely then the world will be good again as God originally intended. That is the day the Christians are hoping to see and eagerly waiting for Him to return soon.