Fisker Karma / Green Cars

iacrenter

iacrenter

Well-known member
I know there are a lot of auto aficionados on this board. What are your thoughts on the homegrown Irvine Fisker Karma? If you wanted a luxury plugin vehicle would you buy it?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2009/12/irvine-based-fisker-automotive-plans-to-deliver-the-first-production-copies-of-its-karma-plug-in-hybrid-by-september-2010-th.html

I know the MB S400 Hybrid (http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/impressions/2010_mercedes-benz_s400_hybrid) and BMW Hybrid 7 (http://www.roadandtrack.com/auto-shows/los-angeles/2010-bmw-activehybrid-7) were on hand at the 2009 LA Auto Show, but they are not true plugin types...more similar to a Prius.
 
No... because it is NOT green. Not even in the slightest. Its a beautiful car though. Even some regular vehicles get some pretty awesome gas milages. Especially the turbo diesels.

-bix
 
[quote author="biscuitninja"]No... because it is NOT green. Not even in the slightest. Its a beautiful car though. Even some regular vehicles get some pretty awesome gas milages. Especially the turbo diesels.

-bix[/quote]

What is your definition of green? I know if the car is driven in 'stealth' mode you can drive 50 miles without using any gasoline. So zero emissions sounds pretty good to me.

If you are defining green as zero net carbon foot print, well then that might be hard. For such an expensive car with lots of metal, electronics, and other material--all the energy required to build such a vehicle surely created a lot of CO2. I don't think they bought carbon credits to offset this.
 
IACR,
It is NOT 50 miles using no gasoline. The power generated by the power station and all its inefficiencies to get it into the battery is probably in the 2-3% efficiency range. Most regular cars are about 20-30%. As mentioned your carbon footprint is pretty big, once you start to add in all those batteries, it becomes VERY big footprint. Add to that the higher cost and what is the benefit?

It only becomes green when you start to get smaller... MUCH smaller vehicles like the old EV1. Some of the newer Volkswagen TDIs are achieving 60-70mpg with minimal effort. There are a few wacky people out there hypermiling their cars to 90mpg (with mods of cours).

For it to be a true test, i'd like to see how many people drive in stealth mode.
-bix
 
[quote author="biscuitninja"]IACR,
It is NOT 50 miles using no gasoline. The power generated by the power station and all its inefficiencies to get it into the battery is probably in the 2-3% efficiency range. Most regular cars are about 20-30%. As mentioned your carbon footprint is pretty big, once you start to add in all those batteries, it becomes VERY big footprint. Add to that the higher cost and what is the benefit?

It only becomes green when you start to get smaller... MUCH smaller vehicles like the old EV1. Some of the newer Volkswagen TDIs are achieving 60-70mpg with minimal effort. There are a few wacky people out there hypermiling their cars to 90mpg (with mods of cours).

For it to be a true test, i'd like to see how many people drive in stealth mode.
-bix[/quote]

Do you know if the upcoming GM Volt will also have the same 2-3% efficiency rating? I thought you could literally plug this sucker into a regular wall socket in your garage. I didn't know you needed a special power supply install.
 
From the power generating station to your wall socket its about 2-3% conversion. Not exactly efficient, but not that bad.

After the power is generated, then coverted, shipped, reconverted, and put to your wall socket. THEN converted again and put to your battery, THEN CONVERTED AGAIN to your motor (not engine) you get only a fraction what was originally put out by the power station.

YEA for conversion and inefficiencies...
 
Thanks Eva!
But I unfortunately disagree with alot of these adjustments. Just the gasses from the batteries (Electric and Hybrid) put most of the "green" cars FAR out green (Even sealed batteries). Unfortunately they aren't looking for any of the other emissions, only those from the smog tests they run. (CO, CO2, NOx, carbon....)

For these to be cleaner, we need better battery technology. Give me something near the Lithium Ion batteries, unfortunatley these batteries would be EXTREMELY expensive as is 1xx,xxx$ per application. And they'd last a VERY long time, not very manufacturing minded.

We do have batteries available but they are thermal batteries and RTG's (Radioisotope thermoelectric generator). The thermal batteries operate at 450 degrees and provide HUGE power, unfortunately they are short lived and operate at VERY hot temperatures. The RTG battery is more of a generator than a battery. It has no moving parts, generates relatively high energy form a small size and has a half life of about 80 years. Downside... VERY, VERY expensive (~1m+) and uhh... its radioactive (done,endofstory,gohome,havesomebeer). So the RTG would be great if we didn't have any accidents, inquisitive car guys and perfect manufacturing.

Anyways enough of my rants.
 
[quote author="biscuitninja"]
For these to be cleaner, we need better battery technology. Give me something near the Lithium Ion batteries, unfortunatley these batteries would be EXTREMELY expensive as is 1xx,xxx$ per application. And they'd last a VERY long time, not very manufacturing minded.

We do have batteries available but they are thermal batteries and RTG's (Radioisotope thermoelectric generator). The thermal batteries operate at 450 degrees and provide HUGE power, unfortunately they are short lived and operate at VERY hot temperatures. The RTG battery is more of a generator than a battery. It has no moving parts, generates relatively high energy form a small size and has a half life of about 80 years. Downside... VERY, VERY expensive (~1m+) and uhh... its radioactive (done,endofstory,gohome,havesomebeer). So the RTG would be great if we didn't have any accidents, inquisitive car guys and perfect manufacturing.
[/quote]

According to both the Fisker Karma website (http://karma.fiskerautomotive.com/pages/karma/technology) and this GM website (http://gm-volt.com/2009/01/12/its-offici....batt ery-packs/)--both companies will be using Lithium Ion batteries.

Also, in the FAQ section of the GM website--they say you can either plug it into a regular 120V socket or upgrade your socket to a dedicated 240V circuit [like the ones used on electric dryers]. (http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/default/future/volt.do?seo=goo_|_2009_Chevy_Awareness_|_IMG_Chevy_Volt_Phase_2_Branded_|_GM_Volt_|_gm_volt)

biscuitninja--
How about this car?
Honda FCX Clarity--uses hydrogen and puts out only water. No electricity to tap into. Though personally it makes me a little nervous to drive with compressed hydrogen aboard--makes me think of the Hindenburg.
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/
 
[quote author="biscuitninja"]
For these to be cleaner, we need better battery technology. Give me something near the Lithium Ion batteries, unfortunatley these batteries would be EXTREMELY expensive as is 1xx,xxx$ per application. And they'd last a VERY long time, not very manufacturing minded.[/quote]

Tesla uses Li-Ion packs and I believe the Volt is supposed to have those as well. Toyota gave up on going that route and stuck with NiMH - I guess because of budget and safety constraints. There is some promise in ZnAir batteries as well.
 
[quote author="IACRenter"]
How about this car?
Honda FCX Clarity--uses hydrogen and puts out only water. No electricity to tap into. Though personally it makes me a little nervous to drive with compressed hydrogen aboard--makes me think of the Hindenburg.
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/[/quote]

Hydrogen depletes the ozone layer, acts as an indirect green house gas and will most likely be extracted from a fossil fuel. Bad, bad, bad!!! A much better alternative is a methanol fuel cell where the methanol is produced through fermentation of organic materials. This would be a renewable resource with a short cycle between carbon emission and recapture (through re-growth of the organic materials - for example, switchgrass).
 
Really? Hydrogen is bad for the environment?

Then GM's hydrogen-based Equinox is a waste? Someone better tell all those Project Driveway members they're not really helping the earth.
 
[quote author="irvinehomeowner"]Really? Hydrogen is bad for the environment?

Then GM's hydrogen-based Equinox is a waste? Someone better tell all those Project Driveway members they're not really helping the earth.[/quote]

Hydrogen is just a gimmick to sound environmentally friendly while still catering to an oil/natural gas/fossil fuel based energy model. While it is true that only water vapor is emitted one has to question how the gas is produced (and the emissions or energy requirements of that process) and what the leakage rate is in the distribution infrastructure.
 
I think having Electric Cars on the grid when power is plentiful is the way to go. Don't forget. Electricity is an EVENT. It cant be stored commercially. So at night when all that hydro power is just going to waste. We charge our cars. Otherwise all that power is never used.

But the oil companies will do everything in their power to keep this from becoming reality anytime soon.
 
Okay... so I know that these hybrids/plug-ins/hydrogen/fredflinstonefootpowered cars aren't really green because of the manufacturing process for the batteries/electricity/fuel... but... aren't they more eco friendly emmissions-wise than the gas cars we are currently driving?

And is the manufacturing/processing part better or worse than what it takes to refine oil into gas?

Aren't we at least we are moving in the right direction?

Unless someone makes a car that runs on sunlight or air... shouldn't we encourage such "innovations"?
 
WOW! Nice comments!

Yes the ZnAir is a GREAT alternative. The Li-ion batteries are just about... adequate. Not qutie there though. Yes all those batteries do produce hydrogen.

The FCX has been around for a while and while it is interesting, it does do bad things. A while back Dodge did a hydrogen car with a fuel cell in the back. It developed a crack and when they came back over the weekend... there was a crater were the car was supposed to be.
You do the math.

While I do agree that electricity is an event, do for one second believe that they don't throttle those systems. They have to, like all systems they can't run them pell mell for MANY reasons (maintence being the biggest one).

As for being eco frinedly by using less fuel, to some degree it is. BUT even with all the bandaids to get hybrid to work well, they still aren't as efficient (fuel wise, emissions wise, power wise) as some of the diesel or CNG (Compressed natural Gas) cars.

I just think they want to add all this crap to keep GASOLINE on tap, not CGN, or other fuel alternatives (Alcohol for one)
 
Take a look at this. Cal ISO.
http://www.caiso.com/outlook/outlook.html

Plenty of juice at night going to waste. Hard to throttle back a Nuke and the Hoover Dam. We have MORE than enough power.
We do need to work on the upgrade of the grid. But we are being HAD by big oil here in So Cal. We could go electric very quickly. A little harder back east where its more coal driven.
 
[quote author="biscuitninja"]WOW! Nice comments!

Yes the ZnAir is a GREAT alternative. The Li-ion batteries are just about... adequate. Not qutie there though. Yes all those batteries do produce hydrogen.

The FCX has been around for a while and while it is interesting, it does do bad things. A while back Dodge did a hydrogen car with a fuel cell in the back. It developed a crack and when they came back over the weekend... there was a crater were the car was supposed to be.
You do the math.

While I do agree that electricity is an event, do for one second believe that they don't throttle those systems. They have to, like all systems they can't run them pell mell for MANY reasons (maintence being the biggest one).

As for being eco frinedly by using less fuel, to some degree it is. BUT even with all the bandaids to get hybrid to work well, they still aren't as efficient (fuel wise, emissions wise, power wise) as some of the diesel or CNG (Compressed natural Gas) cars.

I just think they want to add all this crap to keep GASOLINE on tap, not CGN, or other fuel alternatives (Alcohol for one)[/quote]

Sounds like I am left with either a Honda Civic NGV or biking it to work. Not sure if the Toll Road folks will give me transponder for my Trek. <!-- s:p -->:p<!-- s:p -->
 
[quote author="bltserv"]Take a look at this. Cal ISO.
http://www.caiso.com/outlook/outlook.html

Plenty of juice at night going to waste. Hard to throttle back a Nuke and the Hoover Dam. We have MORE than enough power.
We do need to work on the upgrade of the grid. But we are being HAD by big oil here in So Cal. We could go electric very quickly. A little harder back east where its more coal driven.[/quote]

Electrical generation falls into two categories, base load providers and peak load providers. Hydro is very easy to adjust to demand. Just turn a (BIG) valve to push more or less water through a turbine. No warm-up required. This type of power source is best used for peak loads unless water is in surplus and there's enough to operate full time. It is the best - least cost - adjustable generation technique. Of course, we aren't about to build any more dams because of environmental concerns and lack of water and dam sites. Nuke is base load - on all the time - because it has a high capital cost and virtually no fuel cost, so it is operated at full capacity as long as possible to recover the capital cost. Other steam generator plants, such as coal, are slow to adjust, because things have to get hot to start the water boiling. So coal plant are mostly used for base loads. Gas turbines are another source, and they are typically used for peak loads - middle of the afternoon on a hot day, for example. The reason are that they have relatively low capital cost but high fuel costs, and don't take very long to spin up and become operational when needed. You aren't boiling water, just starting what is basically a jet engine.

So there IS plenty of juice not being used at night, but it's from the expensive peak load plants, not the cheap-to-operate base load plants. The wide-spread use of electric cars may change the minute-by-minute demand curve for electricity (as shown at the Cal-ISO site) by increasing demand at night. This calls into question a lot of the promises for electric cars. Sure, you won't be buying gas at the corner gas station. But your electical use will be much higher because you recharge your car. Your electric bill will be correspondingly higher.

The previous writers have kind of talked around an environmental communications issue. How do you measure "green"? Sure, an all electric car has no air emissions and is therefore green, in a narrow sense. But the electricity had to be generated somewhere, and if it was from a remote coal-fired power plant, a LOT of air pollutants were produced.
 
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