Buyer Beware..A tale of my own stupidity regarding Toll Bros.

[quote author="zovall" date=1237376997]How about we all be a little more welcoming to our new member?</blockquote>


Zovall is correct, of course. My points are still valid, but I should of been nicer about it.



I'm always happy when somebody new shows up, but be warned - be prepared to answer fairly tough, pointed questions.



And I have two poodles dammit.
 
Okay... okay... I will join in. Welcome BBT, the info you have provided is priceless, well... it could be. That is for future buyers. Sorry you had to go through what you did. It sounds like Toll really has their docs in legal order to keep any money they get. The builder I worked for would have just given you the money back, just to not have to deal and pay for the legal hassle. It probably cost Toll more than what they kept from your deposit.



But... on a lighter side, you will be able to get one of these homes for less than they are selling for now. I kinda keep track of the foreclosures, and so does Toll, and there are quite a few in Vista Del Verde. Whether renting is a better deal or not, if you are patient... you will save even more money on a home in this community. And... the best part, you won't have to deal with Toll. Oh... and the high demand for rentals there is short term, just trust me on this. You will see supply increase in the next 6 months.



And please, keep us snarky bastards in check. We need the challenge these days, it is happening less and less. Think of it as pent up snark.
 
[quote author="zovall" date=1237376997]How about we all be a little more welcoming to our new member?</blockquote>
How about we don't condone open stupidity in the name of civility?



A year ago this post would have been ridiculed for the overwhelming idiotic idea of paying a mortgage on a declining assest when renting a comp would save THOUSANDS of dollars a month. Now you are advising we be nicer in pointing out how truly stupid this is, especially considering that 3 children are involved? Please.



The OP came here to warn people that Toll was trying to rob them of $40k, an unsubstantiated charge of fraud with zero documentation offered as proof, yet we can't ask cristical questions or state our opinions about the poster's thinking or facts because it isn't... nice enough?



[quote author="BurnedbyToll" date=1237368184]We felt comfortable buying because we had just sold our home for $1.1 and were taking our $500,000 equity and buying a home that allowed each of our kids to have their own room (we have three kids), but with a smaller yard (we were no longer using our own pool, half basketball court ect. as our kids spend time in their respective sports). We thought (yes, mistakenly and naively) that in this market Toll would want to work with and keep a pre-qualified buyer with a large deposit and high 700 FICO scores. My husband is in healthcare and his job is stable. We intended to stay in the house for at least 8 years as my youngest is 10 and we wouldn't leave until she graduates high school. I am not sure what you mean by "custom home" as this was a large (3,200 sq. ft) attached condo. I wasn't worried about a decline in value after I closed, it's the principle of losing money before you even live in a house. Even if it lost value then, it makes more sense for a family of five to own rather than rent long term.</blockquote>


It never makes sense, I repeat, NEVER. MAKES. SENSE. to spend thousands more to buy a house than it does to rent a comparable home. It isn't about owning vs. renting, it's about not shoveling money into an open pit. Owning offers no advantage that offsets not losing money as your asset's price declines by multiple percentage points. Owning right now ONLY makes sense if you don't care about losing money, which obviously wouldn't apply to you since you originally came in here whining about Toll Brothers overcharging you.



BTW, don't expect to trash someone or some company on the internet without being challenged both on your facts and your thinking process. You invite that kind of treatment when you dish it out first against an undefended target. In other words, don't go wrestling with pigs and then complain because you got covered in shit. Up until recently, this forum assumed you were an adult and treated you as such until it was proven otherwise. Sadly, it appears that has changed. Someone should tell IrvineRenter that snark is no longer part of IHB.
 
[quote author="Oscar" date=1237395496][quote author="zovall" date=1237376997]How about we all be a little more welcoming to our new member?</blockquote>
How about we don't condone open stupidity in the name of civility?



A year ago this post would have been ridiculed for the overwhelming idiotic idea of paying a mortgage on a declining assest when renting a comp would save THOUSANDS of dollars a month. Now you are advising we be nicer in pointing out how truly stupid this is, especially considering that 3 children are involved? Please.



The OP came here to warn people that Toll was trying to rob them of $40k, an unsubstantiated charge of fraud with zero documentation offered as proof, yet we can't ask cristical questions or state our opinions about the poster's thinking or facts because it isn't... nice enough?



[quote author="BurnedbyToll" date=1237368184]We felt comfortable buying because we had just sold our home for $1.1 and were taking our $500,000 equity and buying a home that allowed each of our kids to have their own room (we have three kids), but with a smaller yard (we were no longer using our own pool, half basketball court ect. as our kids spend time in their respective sports). We thought (yes, mistakenly and naively) that in this market Toll would want to work with and keep a pre-qualified buyer with a large deposit and high 700 FICO scores. My husband is in healthcare and his job is stable. We intended to stay in the house for at least 8 years as my youngest is 10 and we wouldn't leave until she graduates high school. I am not sure what you mean by "custom home" as this was a large (3,200 sq. ft) attached condo. I wasn't worried about a decline in value after I closed, it's the principle of losing money before you even live in a house. Even if it lost value then, it makes more sense for a family of five to own rather than rent long term.</blockquote>


It never makes sense, I repeat, NEVER. MAKES. SENSE. to spend thousands more to buy a house than it does to rent a comparable home. It isn't about owning vs. renting, it's about not shoveling money into an open pit. Owning offers no advantage that offsets not losing money as your asset's price declines by multiple percentage points. Owning right now ONLY makes sense if you don't care about losing money, which obviously wouldn't apply to you since you originally came in here whining about Toll Brothers overcharging you.



BTW, don't expect to trash someone or some company on the internet without being challenged both on your facts and your thinking process. You invite that kind of treatment when you dish it out first against an undefended target. In other words, don't go wrestling with pigs and then complain because you got covered in shit. Up until recently, this forum assumed you were an adult and treated you as such until it was proven otherwise. Sadly, it appears that has changed. Someone should tell IrvineRenter that snark is no longer part of IHB.</blockquote>


If a new member wants to come here and create a post to vent about there experience, they should feel welcome to do so. It doesn't seem like they are a realtor or spammer trying to push an agenda. There are several members who have bought a house recently and they are met with congratulations instead of being attacked. The original post here had nothing to do with 'buying is better than renting'.



I've said it before and maybe I need to be more clear. Things ARE going to change here and being nicer is definitely one of those things. If you don't like the direction IHB is taking, there are a number of other places on the internet you may wish to spend your time.
 
Welcome BBT and thanks for your post. From your posts and others, I have learned that buying a new home can be a bit rough and stressful. I have never bought a new home. The legal paperwork sounds way too one sided and now that I have heard some stories, I think I would not buy a new home unless it was finished, or unless I could sign the purchase agreement without a deposit.





Personally I do not think it is stupid to be willing to lose money in order to own. I think it is a personal decision for which there is no smart or stupid, right or wrong decision. Each person just has a different amount they are willing to spend for the perceived benefits of owning vs. renting.





But, (there is always a <strong>BUT</strong> isn't there), most folks who have made the decision to buy even though they will lose equity and have posted of their intentions here, mention a certain percentage that they do not mind losing, usually around 5% to 10%. They usually explain that prices can not go much lower.





I think that is where they are mistaken; not stupid, just mistaken. And wrong. I think it would be prudent to consider how they will feel and react when prices fall by a hell of a lot more than 10% than they have already fallen. If they take some huge price decreases into consideration, I would say they have thoughtfully considered their options and are doing what they perceive is best for them.





My wife and I do not plan on waiting for the absolute bottom in re market prices before we purchase a home. And I really do not think I will care If I lose a few percent in equity. And unlike all those realtors say, I will know when the bottom is. :p
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1237382412][quote author="zovall" date=1237376997]How about we all be a little more welcoming to our new member?</blockquote>


Zovall is correct, of course. My points are still valid, but I should of been nicer about it.



I'm always happy when somebody new shows up, but be warned - be prepared to answer fairly tough, pointed questions.



And I have two poodles dammit.</blockquote>


Also be aware No_Vas like spending time collecting pics he can post here and that's the response you'll get. Unhelpful to most, but I'm sure it puts a smile on his face, since that is what matters since I'm sure he gets tired imparting on new people his theme that purchasing in this economic environment is idiotic for almost anyone and that renting is the best option and lifestyle for all. I think that is his version of tough love.
 
[quote author="zovall" date=1237408950]I've said it before and maybe I need to be more clear. Things ARE going to change here and being nicer is definitely one of those things. If you don't like the direction IHB is taking, there are a number of other places on the internet you may wish to spend your time.</blockquote>


Well then, thank you for having me. No, no need to get up, I'll show myself out.



Goodbye folks!



-Oscar, aka Nude
 
[quote author="JLegend" date=1237420289]

Also be aware No_Vas like spending time collecting pics he can post here and that's the response you'll get. </blockquote>


<a href="http://images.google.com/imghp?hl=en&tab=wi">You too can post pics like me.</a>



<blockquote>Unhelpful to most, but I'm sure it puts a smile on his face, since that is what matters since I'm sure he gets tired imparting on new people his theme that purchasing in this economic environment is idiotic for almost anyone and that renting is the best option and lifestyle for all. I think that is his version of tough love. </blockquote>


Explain to me how making a "lifestyle decision" to lose $7-8K a month is any smarter than spending that money a heroin habit or blowing it off at the track? OP claims to be venting about her negative experience with Toll (which is well known and reported all over the internet) and values $40,000. A conservative estimate puts that at about five month?s deprecation in this market. She claims to be financially savvy. Would she feel the same remorse if Toll had reworked her deal to reflect market conditions, leaving her stuck a much larger number ? say $200K+ - about a year later when the market was off much more than it is today?



The error here is the assumption ?This market will only correct X amount and I?m okay with that.? This blog is full of examples of like minded fools who also believed the same nonsense at some point in the past, who are now facing financial devastation of losing huge sums of money or worse.



You assume I am against ownership and that I believe renting is the only choice. You assume incorrectly. If OP didn?t care about blowing off $40K it is reasonable she wouldn?t care about blowing off 5x or 10x that amount, but since she obviously does, shouldn?t I tell her?
 
Snark aside... what I don't understand is the whole reducing the price by $50k but having to use that for options, and then having to make a deposit of $50k for said options?



Am I the only one who thinks that's strange?



One other note, while your ownership payment may be less than comparable rent, you need to take into account the fact that you would still have $500k in cash rather than putting that into a down payment.



And renting isn't that bad for families... esp because it sounds like your kids are mid-range aged. They may enjoy a new place every year.



Welcome to the forum... and don't mind all the grouchy-pants... IHB regulars don't do their laundry enough.
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1237424774][quote author="JLegend" date=1237420289]

Also be aware No_Vas like spending time collecting pics he can post here and that's the response you'll get. </blockquote>


<a href="http://images.google.com/imghp?hl=en&tab=wi">You too can post pics like me.</a>



<blockquote>Unhelpful to most, but I'm sure it puts a smile on his face, since that is what matters since I'm sure he gets tired imparting on new people his theme that purchasing in this economic environment is idiotic for almost anyone and that renting is the best option and lifestyle for all. I think that is his version of tough love. </blockquote>


Explain to me how making a "lifestyle decision" to lose $7-8K a month is any smarter than spending that money a heroin habit or blowing it off at the track? OP claims to be venting about her negative experience with Toll (which is well known and reported all over the internet) and values $40,000. A conservative estimate puts that at about five month?s deprecation in this market. She claims to be financially savvy. Would she feel the same remorse if Toll had reworked her deal to reflect market conditions, leaving her stuck a much larger number ? say $200K+ - about a year later when the market was off much more than it is today?



The error here is the assumption ?This market will only correct X amount and I?m okay with that.? This blog is full of examples of like minded fools who also believed the same nonsense at some point in the past, who are now facing financial devastation of losing huge sums of money or worse.



You assume I am against ownership and that I believe renting is the only choice. You assume incorrectly. If OP didn?t care about blowing off $40K it is reasonable she wouldn?t care about blowing off 5x or 10x that amount, but since she obviously does, shouldn?t I tell her?</blockquote>


Wow, a response with more than a bong hit picture. I'm impressed. As to your last sentence, of course you should, and I don't oppose any of your economic analysis of the general market. But it's not clear hidden by your snark, sarcasm and know-it all attitude. But I should mind my place since I haven't been around here as long as you have.
 
[quote author="JLegend" date=1237426796] But it's not clear hidden by your snark, sarcasm and know-it all attitude. But I should mind my place since I haven't been around here as long as you have.</blockquote>


I used to foreclose of people for a living. Forgive me if my direct and in your face style is just short of calling somebody a moron.



Most of the pepole I foreclosed on made less serious errors than OP is/was/continues to make, and for smaller total sums.
 
Am I the only person that didn't know that Oscar = Nude?



I just have to mention this once and then I'll drop it. There is a fine line between encouraging people to be nice and <strong>requiring</strong> them to be nice. Some people just really aren't nice and I respect their right to not be nice. Sometimes the harshness in people's expression of their views enables me to think more critically about my own views in ways I would not have if everything was sugar-coated for me. We run the risk of asking people to stop actually being themselves when we start monitoring "niceness". As soon as we've done that, there will truly be no reason to be a part of this forum.
 
[quote author="tmare" date=1237429936]Am I the only person that didn't know that Oscar = Nude?



I just have to mention this once and then I'll drop it. There is a fine line between encouraging people to be nice and <strong>requiring</strong> them to be nice. Some people just really aren't nice and I respect their right to not be nice. Sometimes the harshness in people's expression of their views enables me to think more critically about my own views in ways I would not have if everything was sugar-coated for me. We run the risk of asking people to stop actually being themselves when we start monitoring "niceness". As soon as we've done that, there will truly be no reason to be a part of this forum.</blockquote>


I did not know that Oscar=Nude.





I felt ok being snarkier, (and meaner), in the beginning when the market had not yet started on it's downfall. Now, folks are losing homes, money, relationships, jobs, etc. It is heartbreaking. And although it is as important now as ever to tell the truth, maybe there are ways to say it that are easier to hear than others.
 
A refresher of the year-old board rules. I know that I sometimes have to go back and read this to remind myself, so I'll spare you the trouble of having to click around...



"To all posters: please be nice to the newbies.



We are not a bubble blog. We are a blog about housing and real estate with a focus on residential housing in Irvine. We welcome all points of view to the discussion of that topic.







There is a general consensus among posters that we are entering a bear market in local real estate based on our analysis of current market conditions. However, these are just opinions, and they do not need to be shared by everyone who comes to this board. A board composed of people sharing the same opinions becomes an echo chamber where everything sounds the same. Preachers don?t win many converts when preaching to the choir. When people express opinions not shared by the consensus, we should listen and reply thoughtfully, not attack and condemn to drive away the heretics. If our consensus opinion is the correct one, the strength of our arguments will prevail.







Keep in mind that people have emotional needs concerning the value of their homes, and putting them on the defensive is a sure way to prevent them from listening to what you have to say.











To all new members:







1. If you have questions or wish to discuss a new topic, please use the search tab at the top of the page to see if the topic has been discussed in an existing thread before starting a new discussion.







2. If you want to understand why we are bearish, please read some of the posts linked to below...."



This is continued on the <a href="http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/forums/viewthread/1702/">"New Members Start Here"</a> thread.
 
[quote author="tmare" date=1237429936]Am I the only person that didn't know that Oscar = Nude?



I just have to mention this once and then I'll drop it. There is a fine line between encouraging people to be nice and <strong>requiring</strong> them to be nice. Some people just really aren't nice and I respect their right to not be nice. Sometimes the harshness in people's expression of their views enables me to think more critically about my own views in ways I would not have if everything was sugar-coated for me. We run the risk of asking people to stop actually being themselves when we start monitoring "niceness". As soon as we've done that, there will truly be no reason to be a part of this forum.</blockquote>


I don't think it's even a matter of being nice, since what is nice to some may be a far cry from nice to others. Now I don't think every single post someone makes has to be helpful or even insightful, but being a member on this forum and other forums for various interests, it gets easier to spot those where there is a backhanded bitchslap in many of a member's posts, whether intended or not. I don't think it is "wrong" either, since forums thrive on differing personalities, but at the same, it can get old, and will inevitably revoke some sort of response from other members, while others suck it up better and just accept it for what it is.



But, in any event, carry on.
 
[quote author="awgee" date=1237434396]



I felt ok being snarkier, (and meaner), in the beginning when the market had not yet started on it's downfall. Now, folks are losing homes, money, relationships, jobs, etc. It is heartbreaking. And although it is as important now as ever to tell the truth, maybe there are ways to say it that are easier to hear than others.</blockquote>


Is there any way to sugar coat to someone that the gun they are playing with and considering putting in thier face is cocked and loaded, and it's the same gun the last five suckers just used to off themselves?



OP's concern about 40K is the least of her problems. If the rent multiple is to believed, these Toll properties will sell for 40 cents on the dollar from thier peak valuation. She'll be stuck all of her equity plus some because she has three kids, and apparently that makes it okay.



OP feels victimized by Toll. In reality, they did her a favor and stole $40K, rather than let the open market take $500K+.
 
[quote author="JLegend" date=1237436031][quote author="tmare" date=1237429936]Am I the only person that didn't know that Oscar = Nude?



I just have to mention this once and then I'll drop it. There is a fine line between encouraging people to be nice and <strong>requiring</strong> them to be nice. Some people just really aren't nice and I respect their right to not be nice. Sometimes the harshness in people's expression of their views enables me to think more critically about my own views in ways I would not have if everything was sugar-coated for me. We run the risk of asking people to stop actually being themselves when we start monitoring "niceness". As soon as we've done that, there will truly be no reason to be a part of this forum.</blockquote>


I don't think it's even a matter of being nice, since what is nice to some may be a far cry from nice to others. Now I don't think every single post someone makes has to be helpful or even insightful, but being a member on this forum and other forums for various interests, it gets easier to spot those where there is a backhanded bitchslap in many of a member's posts, whether intended or not. I don't think it is "wrong" either, since forums thrive on differing personalities, but at the same, it can get old, and will inevitably revoke some sort of response from other members, while others suck it up better and just accept it for what it is.



But, in any event, carry on.</blockquote>


What you describe keeps the ?lurker? quotient higher and new participation lower than it otherwise would be. This happens when cliques form or internet bullies dominate the forums. It isn?t an issue of being out-classed by anyone, but rather not being worth the effort of dealing with the attitude.



I appreciate the OP shared her experience. I almost had a similar experience with Toll in Colorado a few years ago. I was luckier than the OP.
 
Maybe we could add a disclaimer so that no_vas can continue to be no_vas (and graphrix, oscar, awgee at times, WINEX, etc..). I think these people add a lot and I wouldn't want to lose them. I'm kidding about the disclaimer but if you lurk long enough, you should know what to expect. I don't see anything wrong with lurking around before jumping in, it worked well for me (but I still got pretty beat up from time to time).
 
Thank you to those that expressed a differing opinion without chastizing me. You are right in saying Toll did me a favor in "pushing me to back out". My DH said that he looks at it as if we lost $40,000 rather than $60,000 (since that is the difference in the current price). You are probably right in saying I would have lost too much in the long run by purchasing from them. As for those who say I am "attacking" Toll, I still have my written contract and their demands so my attorney did tell me I could air my story if I didn't engage in slander. Since I have stated the truth as presented to Toll through my attorney I don't consider this slander, but the facts of what happened to me. I have since learned, shame on me for not doing my homework, that Toll's contract is one of the worst in the business as far as protecting them and leaving the buyer with little recourse. I know for a fact that Shea, a competeing developer in the area, gave back deposits to people who pulled out before their house was built.



As to the poster who talked about the inflated $1.1 price on my house that may be true, but I bought the house for $889,900 in September of 2003 and I sold it for $1.1 in August of 2008. Because I had no second mortgage I probably broke even by the time you figure upgrades we made to the house and real estate commissions. My equity is in cds now at 4%, but they expire in a month or so and I really don't know where the best place to invest the money is. Obviously after reading many posts, the general consensus is that we are not at the bottom of prices yet so I will be waiting to buy. It will eventually go back into real estate at some point. That's just the facts of my situation.
 
It's good you told everyone your story, because if it helps just one person, it has a positive social result. In the past months I have heard numerous stories similar to yours. Also, I have heard of an increase in straight out scams. Some key characteristics to look for with scam artists include: creating a sense of urgency, reinforcing the notion that the offer could be gone forever, creating a sense of friendship and trust (in fact, scam artists usually are close friends, even relatives)



The point is, never give anything up for something that is merely a future promise. If it doesn't exist, its not worth a dime, like Kool-aid. Always do your research. And although I feel bad that you lost $40k, I have heard horror stories of people getting their whole life savings ripped-off. It is sad, but just remember that God knows what is in your heart. If you are indifferent to the truth, God will be indifferent to you.



I completely agree with your assertion that buying, even when you did, was a good idea. Sounds crazy, I know. Let me explain. Rents have been rising, but I project they will fall before stabilizing. The big problem in the future is getting the loan to finance the house. So if you can't buy all cash but can afford a 30 year fixed with 20%, and you get a REALLY good deal on the house, then it is the time to buy. The problem with being all cash is that the dollar may collapse, thereby making your CD's worthless. So in that sense, a house, and even a mortgage, could be a great investment. There is so much uncertainty and the obvious reaction is to hold back. But when you really consider the alternatives, there is no investment better than a real estate. What else are you going to invest in, stocks? no. Bonds? no. cash? useless gold?



It is seldom discussed, but if you do the math for the safest apparent investment in the world, you start to realize how bad and ambiguous it is. A US treasury has a face value of $1000. A year ago, you could buy treasuries at auction for a discount! So a $1000 bond with about 4% return cost about $950 (30 yr). 3 months later, that same bond was selling for around $1200! THATS $200 ABOVE THE FACE VALUE! WTF? Do people really want $40 a year per $1000 that bad? WTF? Really...
 
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