God?

[momopi]

I went to a high school with sub-par academic rating, but had a great teacher who taught culture over rote memorization.  Students who took his French class didn't really learn how to speak the language, but end up studying abroad in France, marrying a French husband, and moving to France.  I started reading Ast?rix le Gaulois comics and later went to culinary school to learn French cuisine.  About 10 years ago I backpacked through France.

My teacher told me that he was religious when he was young.  As he got older, he moved to a new town for college and went to a nearby Church.  During Church service the Pastor brought out 2 buckets and an ice pick like tool.  He lifted one bucket filled with water and preached about people who woke up on Sunday morning and didn't feel like going to Church, skipping one service is OK right?  He punctured the bucket and showed water flowing out, this is like your soul for skipping Church.  Skip another week?  Bam!  Another hole in the bucket.  At that point he had an epiphany moment, "he is full of crap", and walked out.

After graduation, he moved to Long Beach and got a job working as a HS teacher in 1960s.  By chance he encountered Quakers from Whittier and attended their Friend's Meeting.  Over time he reconciled with his faith through Quaker-like spirituality in direct, personal relationship over religious dogma.  He lived simply without extravagance, married a wheelchair bound wife and adopted a daughter.  When he passed away, in accordance to his wishes we had a simple Quaker style meeting/pot luck at his home and buried his ashes under a tree without elaborate ceremony.  I still fondly remember him taking a group of us to see Phantom of the Opera with the original cast (Michael Crawford & Sarah Brightman).

Though the Quaker community in Whittier has been in long decline, they are still around.  If Church doctrine, religious dogma, and shrieking televangelists doesn't speak to you, perhaps the Quakers might serve a better alternative.

 

[Mety]

@Mety:

If there was a Judge who pardons everyone who committed murders and lets them go free, would you think of that Judge as a forgiving and loving judge? Or would you say he/she is more like someone who can?t do the job right?

Actually I will answer this although it does not apply.

If this judge is God, who am I to say he's not doing his job right. If he chooses to pardon everyone that is his will and being my God I must accept it.

However, to apply this to what I'm saying, if at some point in time, he decides to change his mind, he can do so and again, I must accept it.

I disagree with the notion that God cannot change his mind. Just because he knows everything, does not mean he will do things differently in the future. There are many times in the Bible where God knew what man would do but he allowed it to happen anyway.

Here is my loophole scenario:

When we are all finally called to be judged before God, what is to stop him from asking a Jew or a Muslim this question:

"Now... do you believe that Jesus is my son and there is no way to heaven but through accepting him as your God?"

He will know the conviction behind their answer and bam... heaven via Jesus, or hell via wrong choice. Tada!!!

By the way, I think samuroo is saying almost exactly the same thing I am saying regarding God having the mercy and grace of finding non-Christians "worthy". How is that "well said" when you question my same hope?

Sorry for the late reply, I wasn't able to login for awhile.

The difference between what you and samuroo are saying is that while samuroo is clearly stating what the Bible says (which he/she believes) with his wish that non-church-goers to be also saved, you seem like to put God in a box that you've created, which seem all nice and safe for non-believers as well, but limiting God within your own understanding or going beyond what God actually says.

That example you gave is very non-biblical which means very opposite of what Jesus says. Read the story of the rich man and the Lazarus from Luke 16. I'm sure you know the story. Jesus gave a story of the poor Lazarus ending up in Heaven while the rich man ends up in Hell. The reason for that is the rich man didn't hear nor believed in what Moses and the Prophets were saying. They were prophesying of Jesus all over the Scripture and the rich man only relied on his earthly wealth. Jesus also clearly says those who don't believe Moses and the Prophets neither will believe even if someone rises from the dead. He is pretty much saying if you don't believe in the Bible then you pretty much don't believe Jesus, who rose from the dead, is the only way to God. God gives us all those time on earth to hear and believe in His Words. Anything beyond that (after death) is a spiritual world we can't know like you said, but we only can believe what the Bible says as a Christian. This story Jesus gives is one of them.

I might be misunderstanding you of your sincere heart for non-believers to be saved. After reading these posts here I also repented of myself if I was being judgy and not having enough love for those who don't believe yet. But one thing we should make clear is that if you (not just you IHO, but everyone) call yourself a Christian then you should stick to what Christ says. What the Bible says is pretty much what Jesus Christ says is what God the Father says since He declared that in NT. While compassion for non-believers is a heart we all should have, we need to make sure that we firmly believe in the absolute standard, The Holy Bible. If we start to create beyond what the Bible says, then even though it might seem nice, it could very be against what Jesus teaches. I think this is (and has been since day one) what some (or many) churches are doing wrong and confuse the issue of salvation for those who don't know yet.

BTW, since you answered my question. I will add this also. That judge pardoning murders example is actually what God did for us. While He has a perfect standard of what holiness is, He does provide a way for everyone, even murderers or any worst sinners, to be forgiven. He did that through the Jubilee as He gave laws to Israel, and He did that through giving His Son Jesus for us. The only way not to be forgiven is by rejecting that God did that for us so. If those pardoned murderers say "No way the judge did that. I'm just going to stay in jail and die here," then they can't be forgiven. Those who rejected God saved Israel from Egypt were all punished and died in the wilderness. Those who blasphemes the Spirit by saying Jesus was from demon (if you say Jesus is not the Son of God then you're pretty much saying Jesus is demon since Jesus can only be either a Son of God or someone Satan sent for just a nice man or a prophet, as some Jews and Muslims proclaim, doesn't say he is a Son of God) were and will be punished as the Bible states clearly.

You might say you're talking about something completely different like "what about someone who never heard Jesus?" But it's all related issues in the end. It's always the issue of denying myself before God. Those who believe in Jesus is because they believe there is nothing good in themselves and admit their sin. Those who truly admit their sin and also believe any "good" things coming out of them is all from the Creator WILL be saved. God WILL make sure for them to recognize Jesus, the Son of God, the only Savior of our soul and also the body. Interesting thing is that those who really really dive deep into study the Bible to deny God usually all end up denying themselves by believing in Jesus. God will never forsake those who seek Him.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

One other thing... I don't really see God allowing non-Christians a way into heaven as changing his mind.

How do we know that's not his plan all along and he just chose not to tell us.

I think as humans, we can't fully understand what God's plans are... and so whatever he does... he does (which was my point about accepting that Judge's methods regardless).

I'm not criticizing God or questioning what he has told us... I'm just wondering if there is more that we don't have "clearance" for.

 

[Mety]

I went to a high school with sub-par academic rating, but had a great teacher who taught culture over rote memorization.  Students who took his French class didn't really learn how to speak the language, but end up studying abroad in France, marrying a French husband, and moving to France.  I started reading Ast?rix le Gaulois comics and later went to culinary school to learn French cuisine.  About 10 years ago I backpacked through France.

My teacher told me that he was religious when he was young.  As he got older, he moved to a new town for college and went to a nearby Church.  During Church service the Pastor brought out 2 buckets and an ice pick like tool.  He lifted one bucket filled with water and preached about people who woke up on Sunday morning and didn't feel like going to Church, skipping one service is OK right?  He punctured the bucket and showed water flowing out, this is like your soul for skipping Church.  Skip another week?  Bam!  Another hole in the bucket.  At that point he had an epiphany moment, "he is full of crap", and walked out.

After graduation, he moved to Long Beach and got a job working as a HS teacher in 1960s.  By chance he encountered Quakers from Whittier and attended their Friend's Meeting.  Over time he reconciled with his faith through Quaker-like spirituality in direct, personal relationship over religious dogma.  He lived simply without extravagance, married a wheelchair bound wife and adopted a daughter.  When he passed away, in accordance to his wishes we had a simple Quaker style meeting/pot luck at his home and buried his ashes under a tree without elaborate ceremony.  I still fondly remember him taking a group of us to see Phantom of the Opera with the original cast (Michael Crawford & Sarah Brightman).

Though the Quaker community in Whittier has been in long decline, they are still around.  If Church doctrine, religious dogma, and shrieking televangelists doesn't speak to you, perhaps the Quakers might serve a better alternative.

momopi,

I'm not sure if you're Christian or not, but let me share with you what real Christianity is. Christianity is simply 2 things - Denying yourself and gaining Christ. While a religion, I mean ANY religion, is something people want to take advantage of to get their own benefits, a real Christianity based on what the Bible says is something you actually need to deny yourself. Many so-called-churches in America or any countries actually are not drawing a clear distinction here. It's not to draw a clear line for you to not being able to join, which seems like what that pastor you wrote of with 2 buckets did. It's a clear distinction from other religions that church needs to let people know so that they're not in it for their own benefits to begin with. Of course those who joined for selfish reasons also do meet God and repent of their selfish past and get transformed sometimes (myself included), but I wish church pastors were teaching earlier about denying yourself, which is what the Bible says, so that I could have known the truth earlier as well. As soon as some pastors started teaching actually what the Bible says, I found myself in true happiness, a happiness this world or money can't give. I found myself in true repentance as well as I get to know more of what the Bible actually says. That is what denying oneself is really.

Yelling at someone because someone feels like skipping a church in Sunday morning doesn't really speak of what Jesus did for the humanity. That pastor with 2 buckets in your teacher's story probably didn't really understand the Bible at all since the real Sabbath is not Sunday, it's actually Saturday if he wanted to get real technical .  He should have rather taught why Christians gather on Sundays. But I don't know the full story of that pastor either so I shouldn't judge. Attracting people with worldly riches/materials is also very things that Apostle Paul from the Bible calls rubbish. So many false mega churches have fallen into this mistake. Neither of those cases really seem to follow what Jesus commands. Jesus commanded to teach all nations of what He did. If we were to pick only one role of the church, that's pretty much the only primary one. Being generous or living an inspirational life is something an individual can do with the help of God and it would be nice if the church organizations do that as well, but if they do it without teaching about Jesus, then it shouldn't really be called "church." Church is where you deny yourself and gain Christ. That doesn't sound too attractive, but that is the only way to be with God even life after death according to the Bible, the only Word of God.

In that sense, it's very possible a real saved person or a real Christ believer might not even attend the church. He/she could be anywhere including Quakers ministries. Attending the church simply means that they're in it to surround themselves with other believers who deny themselves and they're in it to to serve others, not to be served. You could be at the most legit Bible teaching church and still not deny yourself, wanting to be served.

 

[Mety]

One other thing... I don't really see God allowing non-Christians a way into heaven as changing his mind.

How do we know that's not his plan all along and he just chose not to tell us.

I think as humans, we can't fully understand what God's plans are... and so whatever he does... he does (which was my point about accepting that Judge's methods regardless).

I'm not criticizing God or questioning what he has told us... I'm just wondering if there is more that we don't have "clearance" for.

I respect your heart for non-Christians. You said "why not" on God changing His mind. Technically you never said God changes His mind so I guess you could still believe in God who never changes. Let me know if you think otherwise.

If we call ourselves Christians, then shouldn't we have our belief based on what God says? Even those areas we don't fully understand, we should have some sort of belief based on what the Bible says, no? In that sense, the Bible clearly says there is Heaven and Hell and those who end up at either one can't cross each other. If God plans to send everyone Heaven anyways, then why did Jesus come and "die" in place of you? Why did Jesus say that story of the rich man and Lazarus in Hell and Heaven and the rich man wanting to send Lazars back to his family so that they won't end up in Hell like himself? Why did God ever mention about judgment at all? To have false fear on us? The Bible, we Christians believe, doesn't say God uses false or lies like that. I'm just trying to say what makes Christians Christians. Christians are not someone who attend church. Christians are are people who believe in what The Bible says instead of having our own imagination as our belief system, no? God clearly states the only way to salvation and that is by Jesus Christ alone. This statement could draw many enemies on us, but if that's what God says, then that is what it is. Many if not all false churches/religions are branching out from when they say this issue vaguely. Also since we're on this Heaven or Hell topic, I think we should look from the perspective of "Why would God save wretched sinners like us?" instead of "Why God would send all these people to Hell?" Many people would think from the latter therefore question God, but I think we, especially Christians, need to look from the former perspective to understand God's grace even more.

Now all these don't mean if someone claims anti-God or anti-Bible then we should strike him dead like some false religious organizations do. We simply pray and keep asking God for him to repent and turn his soul into Jesus some day. We can still show love and forgiveness to him, but that doesn't mean we change our view on what the Bible says. If you know someone super kind and generous yet not believing in Jesus, then maybe you are the one who need to speak the gospel to him/her. The rest or for someone to believe, that's really up to God. But in order to preach the gospel, I think it's very important to know this issue of salvation clearly first. Although I do believe God can also use someone who don't know too well to speak the truth as His channel of blessing if He wanted to.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Not sure if this is related, but do any of you believe in aliens?

Or is life on earth the only life in the entire universe?

Maybe I should post another poll/thread for this.

 

[Mety]

Not sure if this is related, but do any of you believe in aliens?

Or is life on earth the only life in the entire universe?

Maybe I should post another poll/thread for this.

I can't find any evidence from the Bible if they do exist. God created/formed the earth and made it inhabitant according to Genesis. It also says "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them." in Genesis 2:1. Jesus also came to earth to save all humanity. It doesn't say He went somewhere else before or after so I don't think there were any other places or planets He needed to visit.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

Why would the Bible talk about lifeforms we would never interact with?

And given what you know of biology/science, can there really be a universe of multiple suns/planets but no other life?

Is there a rule in the Bible that God tells us everything?

 

[Mety]

Why would the Bible talk about lifeforms we would never interact with?

And given what you know of biology/science, can there really be a universe of multiple suns/planets but no other life?

Is there a rule in the Bible that God tells us everything?

Wouldn't that make us so unique then? Doesn't that speak of how great our God's love is? Isn't it amazing that He chose this very earth and us inhabitant in this whole universe?

As you've been saying, if God didn't let us know certain things, then yeah, who are we to say to God how come He didn't let us know? I can agree with that in a sense that God is God no one can question since He knows the best. But maybe adding our assumptions like this is the reason why God commanded us not to add or take away anything from the Scripture itself (since we human beings are more prone to our sinful nature to go against God).

If I were to put in a position where I have to choose only one between the science and the Bible, then I would choose the Bible to be more reliable source for me. It's not to say I disregard science. God created the science so that we can use it to glorify God even more.

 

[Mety]

What about you, IHO?

Do you believe there are aliens or living forces out there?

If so, why and where do you think that stands as a Christian?

 

[irvinehomeowner]

The Bible doesn't mention life other than Earth. But it also does not say there is *no* life not on Earth.

It talks about angels... how do we know that the "heavens" where the angels reside are not other planets?

Scientists says it's almost impossible for there not to be other lives somewhere out there... but there are many scientist who think God is impossible.

My stance is it is unknown until God makes it known.

 

[Mety]

The Bible doesn't mention life other than Earth. But it also does not say there is *no* life not on Earth.

It talks about angels... how do we know that the "heavens" where the angels reside are not other planets?

Scientists says it's almost impossible for there not to be other lives somewhere out there... but there are many scientist who think God is impossible.

My stance is it is unknown until God makes it known.

That probably was the clearest answer I've ever gotten from you personally. Maybe I needed to ask clearly in the first place? 

Anyways, since angels are spiritual beings, I don't think they would need somewhere to reside like us humans who are physical beings. The fallen angels are destined to be judged into the eternal damnation along with the unbelievers as clearly described in the Bible. The good angels are probably always with God giving Him all the glory. All these are "spiritual" reality in the biblical perspective.

We, human beings, are the only ones created in the image of God. We're quite unique since technically we deal with both physical and spiritual realms. Christians are surely living in this physical world with faith of spiritual world, but also we're looking forward to a day when we're living with a resurrected (or transformed for those who haven't died) physical body as well. I'm not quite sure where aliens could be a subject of salvation or anything while I read and think upon these biblical truths.

 

[morekaos]

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist

Scientists discover mankind?s belief in evil 'caused by disease'

Scientists at the University of Melbourne, Australia, believe that belief in evil was more common in these places where diseases were produced.


The university?s associate professor at the School of Psychological Sciences Brock Bastian told Live Science: ?It (the research) opens up new insights into the emergence of religion as a belief system that developed to explain natural threats or events.?

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/scientists-discover-mankinds-belief-evil-20762415
https://youtu.be/KnGo6Qm0Wt8

https://youtu.be/KnGo6Qm0Wt8

 

[Mety]

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist

Scientists discover mankind?s belief in evil 'caused by disease'

Scientists at the University of Melbourne, Australia, believe that belief in evil was more common in these places where diseases were produced.


The university?s associate professor at the School of Psychological Sciences Brock Bastian told Live Science: ?It (the research) opens up new insights into the emergence of religion as a belief system that developed to explain natural threats or events.?

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/scientists-discover-mankinds-belief-evil-20762415

So what do you think, morekaos?

Do you believe there is the devil? If so, why? If not, why not?

 

[morekaos]

100%...evil, like good, glares at us conspicuously.  Today we seem to live in a world where evil tries to cast gray shades in order to confuse and deceive.  Black is white, up is down, good is bad and visa versa...we are weak.

 

[Mety]

100%...evil, like good, glares at us conspicuously.  Today we seem to live in a world where evil tries to cast gray shades in order to confuse and deceive.  Black is white, up is down, good is bad and visa versa...we are weak.

I agree that we're living in a world where what's incorrect is believed to be correct, hence deceiving many. They also say there is no such thing as "correct" so they will get your attention while God clearly defines what the right and wrong are. What do you think we should do while living in this deceitful world?

 

[morekaos]

All that can be done is pray and try to live your life as close to the path as possible while trying to guide your family.  Not an easy way, but the road does lead to better places.

 

[morekaos]

Bubbling up...

Vatican training more priests while exorcism requests are on the rise

Father Lambert said he is seeing an increase in people wanting to get exorcisms, as well as seeing an increase in priests being trained by the Vatican.

?As faith is in decline, there may be more people who open themselves up to the reality of evil,? Father Lambert said.

https://www.10tv.com/article/vatican-training-more-priests-while-exorcism-requests-are-rise-2019-nov

 

[eyephone]

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist

Scientists discover mankind?s belief in evil 'caused by disease'

Scientists at the University of Melbourne, Australia, believe that belief in evil was more common in these places where diseases were produced.


The university?s associate professor at the School of Psychological Sciences Brock Bastian told Live Science: ?It (the research) opens up new insights into the emergence of religion as a belief system that developed to explain natural threats or events.?

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/scientists-discover-mankinds-belief-evil-20762415

So what do you think, morekaos?

Do you believe there is the devil? If so, why? If not, why not?

Mety: Look he is attacking you and the faith.
Step it up and activate try hard mode.

 

[momopi]

Not sure if this is related, but do any of you believe in aliens?
Or is life on earth the only life in the entire universe?
Maybe I should post another poll/thread for this.

It's estimated that there are over 100 billion planets in our galaxy, and over 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe (first 3 dimensions).  Considering the sheer numbers, it's very possible for life to exist on another planet.  However at the same time, the chance of us encountering alien life is also pretty low.

If by chance we do encounter intelligent alien life, I think it'd be a pivotal event that may change religions on our planet.  Also, should mankind expand to the stars, I think Earth's resources would be depleted during the expansion, and only the culls would be left behind.