Alternative Medicine Pediatrician?

[irvinehomeowner]

I don't know what SoCal read, but prior to IHW using "asinine" I don't really see the mocking... I believe each poster said that "IMO" (ie in their opinion) they didn't think going without vaccinations was a good idea.

Could they have been less direct? Maybe but each one did say "IMO" and one even said "not to attack you".

Saying that you *think* someone is "making a terrible choice" in your opinion is much less "mocking" than calling people "ill-informed", "not educating themselves" and givers of "asinine lectures".

That's the problem with the internet, lack of tone just snowballs... and personally I'm still waiting for IHW to educate us on why we are ill-informed about vaccinating our children, as asinine as that may seem. There have been plenty of arguments on one side, so I'm will to hear the other because *in my opinion* -- it seems more risky.

 

[iacrenter]

I do not want my passionate posts to be interpreted as personal vitriol. As a medical professional, I have seen first hand the heartache of parents lose a child to severe infection due to lack of vaccination. Yes it is rare but it is devastating to the child and family. As a parent, I could only imagine the hurt and regret those parents felt.

We are so privileged to live in a country where we have world class health care and democratically protected rights. It saddens me to see the choices we sometimes make.

I wish IrvineHousewife and her family only the best.

 

[bones]

.

 

[socal78]

I don't know what SoCal read,

@ Iho: I don't know if you're asking me or just satisfied with your own guesses.

But if you're asking, which I think you are, "oh hello jenny mccarthy.  didn't know you moved to irvine!" Because you know Jenny McCarthy is so very well-respected in professional circles like our resident expert, Doctor Bones.  That was what I meant about the mocking. I did not have him in mind, though, when I mentioned giving unsolicited advice.

@ anyone: I don't know how anybody expects IHW to be receptive to what they're saying with the approaches I've seen here. Three people piled on her with the same thing before she had a chance to reply. The message is alright I guess but the delivery needs work. You guys gotta understand that on other sites where these hot topics are discussed, they develop what's called "Mommy Wars". I've seen plenty of them. If she's reacting defensively, it could be because she thinks you guys don't believe she is a good parent or that you are better than her - that spells war. I don't like mommy wars. Sure, I also hope she will reconsider the biggies when she's ready but I don't want to stress her out right now. I am sure IHW loves her baby very much and wants what's best for her. Remember, this is her first. Sometimes you just gotta give people time to acclimate to the idea. Who knows, maybe in a year she will have a change of heart. I know that I parent differently now than I did a decade ago and if I could go back, there are some things that as an experienced parent now, I would definitely do differently! I'm sure a lot of us would. I let somebody rush me into a decision that I regret all the time and I feel like a terrible mom for it. I just don't want her to feel pressured. Give her a minute to enjoy her new baby. The forum will be here later if she wants to talk.

*Off for a good cry now.*  :'(

Btw, I don't do any flu vaccines for my kids at all anymore and am not totally sold on the new HPV vaccine as of yet which he would be scheduled for next year. I can hear the heads exploding now!!!

Edit: HPV, not Hepatitis. Brain fart.

 

[qwerty]

I don't think comparing the flu vaccine for adults and vaccinating kids is an apples to apples comparison.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

P.S. Regardless of their specialty, I'll tend to take an MD's word with more weight than a new poster who isn't providing any evidence other than that we haven't educated ourselves enough.

And if you look past the claims of asininity, the positive take away is these people actually care about a mother and her upcoming child so they are recommending what they feel would be best for them. People do that all the time, suggest what they think might be a better solution (even Mr. Durden).

 

[IrvineHousewife]

I'll tend to take an MD's word with more weight than a new poster who isn't providing any evidence other than that we haven't educated ourselves enough.

I never said I would be the educator for all about vaccines. What I said was educate yourself and then I'll debate with you. I have educated myself by speaking exclusively with MDs. They have referred me to medical journals and studies which I have poured over. Of course, I have also asked other parents what their experiences were like both with vaccinating and without. I started off on the side of vaccinating completely, but through this extensive research, my mind was changed.

I accept everyone's opinion/belief that vaccinations are a necessity. I also sincerely appreciate everyone who defended me and sent me recommendations on how to go down the road less traveled. I'm sorry the post got a little heated at times, but really that's what we're all here for, right?

If anyone else is searching for a more holistic pediatrician, these are the best that I have found. I have met them all. Don't just take my word for it though, all pediatricians provide free initial consultations. Take advantage of this. Ask as many questions as you can and if you get a bad or good gut feeling...go with it.

Dr. Michael Aufdemberg
4902 Irvine Center Dr
Irvine, CA 92604
(949) 786-5437

Dr. Thomas Linhttp://www.irvinekidsmd.com/
4634 Barranca Pkwy
Irvine, CA 92604
(949) 681-0777

Dr. Bob Searshttp://www.askdrsears.com/
26933 Camino De Estrella
Capistrano Beach, CA 92624
(949) 493-5437

Dr. Pam Middleton mydrpam.com
359 San Miguel Dr
Ste 303
Newport Beach, CA 92660
(949) 706-1414


Now, I'm off to tackle something far more serious...FOOTBALL!

 

[Irvinecommuter]

If anyone else is searching for a more holistic pediatrician, these are the best that I have found. I have met them all. Don't just take my word for it though, all pediatricians provide free initial consultations. Take advantage of this. Ask as many questions as you can and if you get a bad or good gut feeling...go with it.

Actually...going with your gut instinct on medical issue is not such a good idea.  I'm an attorney and people going with their "gut" on legal matter is often disastrous. 

The whole vaccine thing is nothing more than a mistaken belief that parents "know best" when in fact they don't.  That's why people go to medical school...to learn about things that most people don't understand.  It's no different than people thinking that they are safer in cars than airplanes, when in fact you are much safer in the hands of a trained professional.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

If anyone else is searching for a more holistic pediatrician, these are the best that I have found. I have met them all. Don't just take my word for it though, all pediatricians provide free initial consultations. Take advantage of this. Ask as many questions as you can and if you get a bad or good gut feeling...go with it.

Actually...going with your gut instinct on medical issue is not such a good idea.  I'm an attorney and people going with their "gut" on legal matter is often disastrous. 

The whole vaccine thing is nothing more than a mistaken belief that parents "know best" when in fact they don't.  That's why people go to medical school...to learn about things that most people don't understand.  It's no different than people thinking that they are safer in cars than airplanes, when in fact you are much safer in the hands of a trained professional.

You could certainly say the same thing about investing in commodities, equities, fixed income and derivatives securities. It also applies to buying and managing real property, designing the exterior landscaping, interior decor as well as performing the regular upkeep and maintenance.

How many advocates of trusting trained professionals outsource 100% of those tasks to professionals?

No...you can't say that about those things. 

Investing is pretty much gambling.  Even "experts" don't really know how to invest.    Frontline has a great segment on this
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/retirement-gamble/

Buying and managing real property is probably more controllable but even then it's more about time and attention.  Even then, "experts" get burned all the time.

You can run into issues with exterior designing (i.e. sprinklers, slope issues, water runoff, erosion)...and depending on the job you definitely should go with an expert. Bad interior designing doesn't hurt anyone other than other people's view of your house.

Medical and legal issues are on a complete other level.

There is a term for what I am describing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias#Personal_control.2Fperceived_control

 

[OCgasman]

People have a right to choose for themselves and their children.  You give them all the benefits, alternatives, and risks involved and they can make an informed decision (informed consent in medical parlance).  I don't begrudge IHW for her decision (even though I disagree with it), it's her kids. 

I also like the fact that IHW hasn't deleted any posts or this thread and let the arguments on each side flow.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

People have a right to choose for themselves and their children.  You give them all the benefits, alternatives, and risks involved and they can make an informed decision (informed consent in medical parlance).  I don't begrudge IHW for her decision (even though I disagree with it), it's her kids.

Sure they do...but when what they do affects society in general (including my child), I speak up.  It's really no different than 2nd hand smoke or DUI in my view.

 

[OCgasman]

People have a right to choose for themselves and their children.  You give them all the benefits, alternatives, and risks involved and they can make an informed decision (informed consent in medical parlance).  I don't begrudge IHW for her decision (even though I disagree with it), it's her kids.

Sure they do...but when what they do affects society in general (including my child), I speak up.  It's really no different than 2nd hand smoke or DUI in my view.

Ok.  But what is there to do at this point?  IHW has made up her mind.  Schools don't mandate vaccinations and pediatricians can't force vaccinations on patients.  <shrug>.  If you knew a child was not vaccinated in your kid's class, would you tell your child to not play with that unvaccinated kid.  Treat that unvaccinated kid like a leper? 

 

[Irvinecommuter]

People have a right to choose for themselves and their children.  You give them all the benefits, alternatives, and risks involved and they can make an informed decision (informed consent in medical parlance).  I don't begrudge IHW for her decision (even though I disagree with it), it's her kids.

Sure they do...but when what they do affects society in general (including my child), I speak up.  It's really no different than 2nd hand smoke or DUI in my view.

Ok.  But what is there to do at this point?  IHW has made up her mind.  Schools don't mandate vaccinations and pediatricians can't force vaccinations on patients.  <shrug>.  If you knew a child was not vaccinated in your kid's class, would you tell your child to not play with that unvaccinated kid.  Treat that unvaccinated kid like a leper?

So...if something bad is happening and it seems hopeless...you should just ignore it and hope for the best? 

Obviously, I wasn't talking to IHW specifically because she appears to have made up her mind.  But there are plenty of people who have questions and doubt.  I am hoping to present actually facts to them rather than an amorphoreous "I know more than you do...and if you don't know it's because you are not educated" response.

I am still waiting for someone to present facts and science to backup the anti-vaccine argument.  Even Jenny McCarthy has backed down from that claim.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

I never said I would be the educator for all about vaccines. What I said was educate yourself and then I'll debate with you. I have educated myself by speaking exclusively with MDs. They have referred me to medical journals and studies which I have poured over. Of course, I have also asked other parents what their experiences were like both with vaccinating and without. I started off on the side of vaccinating completely, but through this extensive research, my mind was changed.

But if the evidence is so compelling, shouldn't there be credible links to online articles that you can point out to us? I can use my Google-Fu but I would rather you point out such an article that changed your mind from "vaccinating completely".

I accept everyone's opinion/belief that vaccinations are a necessity. I also sincerely appreciate everyone who defended me and sent me recommendations on how to go down the road less traveled. I'm sorry the post got a little heated at times, but really that's what we're all here for, right?

You are correct... this is a discussion forum... but I still think for the sake of the opinion you are expressing, it would be nice to see some internet links. I'm not asking you to read it or explain it to me, just point me in an online direction.

Now, I'm off to tackle something far more serious...FOOTBALL!

Hehe... that was "punny".

 

[OCgasman]

People have a right to choose for themselves and their children.  You give them all the benefits, alternatives, and risks involved and they can make an informed decision (informed consent in medical parlance).  I don't begrudge IHW for her decision (even though I disagree with it), it's her kids.

Sure they do...but when what they do affects society in general (including my child), I speak up.  It's really no different than 2nd hand smoke or DUI in my view.

Ok.  But what is there to do at this point?  IHW has made up her mind.  Schools don't mandate vaccinations and pediatricians can't force vaccinations on patients.  <shrug>.  If you knew a child was not vaccinated in your kid's class, would you tell your child to not play with that unvaccinated kid.  Treat that unvaccinated kid like a leper?

So...if something bad is happening and it seems hopeless...you should just ignore it and hope for the best? 

Obviously, I wasn't talking to IHW specifically because she appears to have made up her mind.  But there are plenty of people who have questions and doubt.  I am hoping to present actually facts to them rather than an amorphoreous "I know more than you do...and if you don't know it's because you are not educated" response.

I am still waiting for someone to present facts and science to backup the anti-vaccine argument.  Even Jenny McCarthy has backed down from that claim.

I'm not entirely understanding your argument.  What do you mean by "
So...if something bad is happening and it seems hopeless...you should just ignore it and hope for the best?"  I am only talking about the issue of vaccinations.  Yes, medical professionals all recommend vaccinations and I agree with them.  But we don't live in a socialist society.  People are free to choose if they want vaccinations for their child or not.  It's recommended, but not mandated.  We can all educate as best we can, but in the end it's up to the parents. 

 

[Irvinecommuter]

If anyone else is searching for a more holistic pediatrician, these are the best that I have found. I have met them all. Don't just take my word for it though, all pediatricians provide free initial consultations. Take advantage of this. Ask as many questions as you can and if you get a bad or good gut feeling...go with it.

Actually...going with your gut instinct on medical issue is not such a good idea.  I'm an attorney and people going with their "gut" on legal matter is often disastrous. 

The whole vaccine thing is nothing more than a mistaken belief that parents "know best" when in fact they don't.  That's why people go to medical school...to learn about things that most people don't understand.  It's no different than people thinking that they are safer in cars than airplanes, when in fact you are much safer in the hands of a trained professional.

You could certainly say the same thing about investing in commodities, equities, fixed income and derivatives securities. It also applies to buying and managing real property, designing the exterior landscaping, interior decor as well as performing the regular upkeep and maintenance.

How many advocates of trusting trained professionals outsource 100% of those tasks to professionals?

No...you can't say that about those things. 

Investing is pretty much gambling.  Even "experts" don't really know how to invest.    Frontline has a great segment on this
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/retirement-gamble/

Buying and managing real property is probably more controllable but even then it's more about time and attention.  Even then, "experts" get burned all the time.

You can run into issues with exterior designing (i.e. sprinklers, slope issues, water runoff, erosion)...and depending on the job you definitely should go with an expert. Bad interior designing doesn't hurt anyone other than other people's view of your house.

Medical and legal issues are on a complete other level.

There is a term for what I am describing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias#Personal_control.2Fperceived_control

That is ridiculous. I think you are undervaluing certain professions and their bona fides to provide services vs everyone else's.

What is ridiculous?  Which professions are on par with legal and medical treatment? 

You can provide services and they can be valuable to society but they are not essential.  Consequence of what they do is not deeply impactful on a person's life in the long run. 

 

[Irvinecommuter]

People have a right to choose for themselves and their children.  You give them all the benefits, alternatives, and risks involved and they can make an informed decision (informed consent in medical parlance).  I don't begrudge IHW for her decision (even though I disagree with it), it's her kids.

Sure they do...but when what they do affects society in general (including my child), I speak up.  It's really no different than 2nd hand smoke or DUI in my view.

Ok.  But what is there to do at this point?  IHW has made up her mind.  Schools don't mandate vaccinations and pediatricians can't force vaccinations on patients.  <shrug>.  If you knew a child was not vaccinated in your kid's class, would you tell your child to not play with that unvaccinated kid.  Treat that unvaccinated kid like a leper?

So...if something bad is happening and it seems hopeless...you should just ignore it and hope for the best? 

Obviously, I wasn't talking to IHW specifically because she appears to have made up her mind.  But there are plenty of people who have questions and doubt.  I am hoping to present actually facts to them rather than an amorphoreous "I know more than you do...and if you don't know it's because you are not educated" response.

I am still waiting for someone to present facts and science to backup the anti-vaccine argument.  Even Jenny McCarthy has backed down from that claim.

I'm not entirely understanding your argument.  What do you mean by "
So...if something bad is happening and it seems hopeless...you should just ignore it and hope for the best?"  I am only talking about the issue of vaccinations.  Yes, medical professionals all recommend vaccinations and I agree with them.  But we don't live in a socialist society.  People are free to choose if they want vaccinations for their child or not.  It's recommended, but not mandated.  We can all educate as best we can, but in the end it's up to the parents.

Sure...but you hope to educate and influence others.  No different...just 50 years ago, smoking was seen as "healthy".  Psuedo-science is absolutely something I get worked up about.
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6447/

 

[nosuchreality]

That is ridiculous. I think you are undervaluing certain professions and their bona fides to provide services vs everyone else's.

Actually, I consider it relatively appropriate.  Doctors, like Stock Brokers have many conflicts of interests.  There's the time pressure, the sales rep pressure, the sales rep allure (go early and look at the Pharma reps, once), and on and on.

Plus there's the ego issue and the fact that they are neither all knowing nor omnipotent.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

That is ridiculous. I think you are undervaluing certain professions and their bona fides to provide services vs everyone else's.

Actually, I consider it relatively appropriate.  Doctors, like Stock Brokers have many conflicts of interests.  There's the time pressure, the sales rep pressure, the sales rep allure (go early and look at the Pharma reps, once), and on and on.

Plus there's the ego issue and the fact that they are neither all knowing nor omnipotent.

Except, medicine is generally governed by science while stock brokers are governed by "gut instincts" and emotions.  Medical studies are constantly published, evaluated, criticized, and thinking challenged.  Where does that happen in the financial field? 

I don't consider doctors omnipotent or all knowing but they know a heck of a lot more than me.  Of course, there are good and bad doctors (just like there are good and bad attorneys).  But I know for a fact how overwhelm an individual can be in a courtroom when s/he is a pro per.  I don't even know what to start with in an operating room.

Again, the initial discussion was about a person own "gut instinct" versus trained professional.

 

[Irvinecommuter]

Right, but assuming you remove the agency issues and find a good advisor, you will find higher returns.

Why? Because they have access to information that the general public does not. Access to that information comes at a cost - their service fees.

Actually, you don't have access to information that the general public does not.  That would be insider's trading.  Brokers just have a lot more time to read through reports and analysis but in the end it's a crap shoot.  Look at the losses taken by major brokerage firms...because some hotshot broker got it right a couple of times.  Go watch that frontline documentary...you do much better buying an index fund like Vanguard.