Windows recommendation

stepping_up_IHB

New member
We need to replace really old windows and I'm overwhelmed with where we should get them. I see all these ads and then the Home Depot is always having a sale. What is the best source and who do you recommend? We're not looking for high end stuff, just good quality energy efficient windows at a decent value. Do we buy from the people installing, or do two separate transacations? Any and all advice/suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
 
Please please please please! select windows where the window grids (muntins) is not sandwiched between 2 pieces of insulating glass. The muntins should be on the outside as part of the window frame assembly. Windows with sandwiched muntins are really fake and really should be avoided. Builders like them because they are cheap -$-$-$.



No white windows unless your house is Cape Cod or Cottage style. Stucco homes (Spanish) need windows with dark frame.
 
this is what you mean, bk?



<img src="http://www.swissshade.com/images/img/Mulltions_Muntins_01.jpg" alt="" />
 
<blockquote>Please please please please! select windows where the window grids (muntins) is not sandwiched between 2 pieces of insulating glass. The muntins should be on the outside as part of the window frame assembly. Windows with sandwiched muntins are really fake and really should be avoided. Builders like them because they are cheap -$-$-$. No white windows unless your house is Cape Cod or Cottage style. Stucco homes (Spanish) need windows with dark frame. </blockquote>
BK - we had the grids between our windows in our New England Cape Cod style house. I have to say that I loved them! They never got dusty and the kids never broke them when they opened the windows. Why don't you like them? I don't remember them looking fake from the outside of the house. Just picking your brain - you know I'm one of your biggest fans.



And they were more expensive than the grids on the outside. I can't forget that because my husband and I battled over this issue for a bit. He didn't want to spend the extra money; but it's something that I really wanted.
 
i never thought of this until this thread pointed out the differences. just looking at the pic of the 3 types, now i'm dreading what would happen if the glass on one of the windows or french doors cracked. i'd have to replace the whole thing instead of just one panel.
 
[quote author="acpme" date=1213762035]this is what you mean, bk?



<img src="http://www.swissshade.com/images/img/Mulltions_Muntins_01.jpg" alt="" /></blockquote>


Thank you Acpme!



The muntins will never cast a shadow on the glass in the 1st diagram. Appearance from the outside lacks depth. The second diagram is much better but some time when one is up close to the window she can see the aluminum spacer inside the dual glass. The 3rd is my favorite. It looks and feels like an authentic window consisting many individual glass panes held together by the muntins made by craftsman in his Yankee workshop.



The charm with Cape Cod is its old heritage and tradition. Technology at that time did not permit large sheet of glass to be made. Window technology should match architectural style. This is why Mid Century Modern looks so good with large sheet of glass and corner windows. It is forbidden to add grids to a Mid Century Modern house.



Can you imagine changing out all the glass to Cape Cod style windows for the Koenig house Perched over the Hollywood cliff.



The first one is not allowed in Shady canyon. The second is subject for review. And the third one is almost mandatory. Acpme, You need to know this as you are working toward your Shady Canyon Residence status. I am giving you 30 days notice to move your tent off my lot.
 
[quote author="Astute Observer" date=1213768790]Not that I ever clean my window more than once a year, but won't the sandwiched muntin window be easier to clean?



Besides the look, what are the advantage of the "real" windows (third type)?</blockquote>


Color. Not all windows are white. Many Spanish Colonial revivals in Santa Barbara have blue/green color windows. You can paint the muntin to match the frame color. The true divided lites are harder to clean and more maintenance issues but the look is priceless knowing the windows are diamonds and not cubic zirconia.



The sandwiched grid windows only come in white.



Higher end custom homes have all true divided lites.



Now you can all tell a good custom from a mediocre custom by looking at the windows.



Women prefer real diamond vs Cubic Zirconia just like true divided lites vs sandwiched grid. The trained eyes can tell the difference immediately.



Homework for IHB members pay attention to the windows. Expensive homes must come with true divided lites otherwise the buyers are being rip off. It is the mark of high standard and excellence.



Manufacturer today can impregnate the finish on the exterior frame and muntins like the Kynar finish baked into the metal like the automotive industry. The windows are designed to be hosed off but one has to clean the glass individually on the outside.



Certain advantages are replacement cost is minimized and the chance of condensation is none because the seal is stronger for individual glass. The single large glass has greater material contraction and expansion the sealed gasket often get separated as a result condensation (foggy) occured inside the trapped glass and could never be cleaned or evaporated. Overtime the single large glass will develop a hazy film inside the sandwiched glass.
 
Clean windows make such a difference. I can be a big slaboo at times... wished I cleaned the floors more often etc.... but religiously I clean the windows every 3 months. It makes such a difference. We moved into a foreclosure that needed so much and the first two weeks I regretted that I couldn't get to the windows. Hubby didn't understand why the dirty windows bothered me so much until I cleaned them. Every room looked brighter and cleaner. In fact, I now just looked at the streaks I left on the kitchen window and am compelled to remove them. I even cleaned the windows when I left my rental and I think that has something to do with the fact that we got back 100% of our deposit.
 
[quote author="stepping_up" date=1213782690]Clean windows make such a difference. I can be a big slaboo at times... wished I cleaned the floors more often etc.... but religiously I clean the windows every 3 months. It makes such a difference. We moved into a foreclosure that needed so much and the first two weeks I regretted that I couldn't get to the windows. Hubby didn't understand why the dirty windows bothered me so much until I cleaned them. Every room looked brighter and cleaner. In fact, I now just looked at the streaks I left on the kitchen window and am compelled to remove them. I even cleaned the windows when I left my rental and I think that has something to do with the fact that we got back 100% of our deposit.</blockquote>


I agree - I'm a bit OCD with my windows. I can't stand them when they are dirty. The last house we owned we installed windows that tilted in to clean. I have yet to see windows that tilt inward during any of my open house tours in CA. And I've been in some nice homes.
 
[quote author="CalGal" date=1213782987][quote author="stepping_up" date=1213782690]Clean windows make such a difference. I can be a big slaboo at times... wished I cleaned the floors more often etc.... but religiously I clean the windows every 3 months. It makes such a difference. We moved into a foreclosure that needed so much and the first two weeks I regretted that I couldn't get to the windows. Hubby didn't understand why the dirty windows bothered me so much until I cleaned them. Every room looked brighter and cleaner. In fact, I now just looked at the streaks I left on the kitchen window and am compelled to remove them. I even cleaned the windows when I left my rental and I think that has something to do with the fact that we got back 100% of our deposit.</blockquote>


I agree - I'm a bit OCD with my windows. I can't stand them when they are dirty. The last house we owned we installed windows that tilted in to clean. I have yet to see windows that tilt inward during any of my open house tours in CA. And I've been in some nice homes.</blockquote>


I hear you.... there were two screens that I could not remove here and the exterior dirt and filth on those are driving me crazy. This discussion had me out looking them again and considering ripping the screens off!



Tilted, that would be nice.... our last rental was on the second floor and I literally took the windows out of their frame to clean the outside. They were older, so it was relatively easy.
 
We used Marvin Windows when we built our last house. We were really pleased with them.

<blockquote>

I hear you.... there were two screens that I could not remove here and the exterior dirt and filth on those are driving me crazy. This discussion had me out looking them again and considering ripping the screens off! </blockquote>


I have one bathroom window that cannot be fully cleaned. It bothers me every time I enter the room. :blank: That's one con to renting - you can't change things that bother you. That bathroom would have a new window if we owned this place.
 
I have a favorite style that I've never seen in the U.S.



These window systems have a dual hinge system that allows for swinging open vertically or horizontally.

They were well-made and very simple in concept. I like the fact that I could leave some opening for ventilation without sacrificing safety/security.



These were prevalent in many of the Austrian, German, Italian, and Swiss households that I was able to visit with, and I'm surprised they haven't been a bigger hit here in the States.



bk, any answers? Probably something very simple I'm overlooking but I really was truly enamored with the style.



<strong><a href="http://www.eurobuilt.com/technology.html">Tilt or Swing-Open Windows</a></strong>
 
[quote author="stepping_up" date=1213783470]I hear you.... there were two screens that I could not remove here and the exterior dirt and filth on those are driving me crazy. This discussion had me out looking them again and considering ripping the screens off!



Tilted, that would be nice.... our last rental was on the second floor and I literally took the windows out of their frame to clean the outside. They were older, so it was relatively easy.</blockquote>


What works well (but not perfect) is taking a feather duster (made with ostrich feathers) to the screen followed up by a dustbuster or similar hand vac that has a brush on the vacuuming end.
 
[quote author="IrvineRealtor" date=1213793302]I have a favorite style that I've never seen in the U.S.



These window systems have a dual hinge system that allows for swinging open vertically or horizontally.

They were well-made and very simple in concept. I like the fact that I could leave some opening for ventilation without sacrificing safety/security.



These were prevalent in many of the Austrian, German, Italian, and Swiss households that I was able to visit with, and I'm surprised they haven't been a bigger hit here in the States.



bk, any answers? Probably something very simple I'm overlooking but I really was truly enamored with the style.



<strong><a href="http://www.eurobuilt.com/technology.html">Tilt or Swing-Open Windows</a></strong></blockquote>


Albertini window is an Italian made product that is made in the specification you described.
 
[quote author="bkshopr" date=1213768031]The 3rd is my favorite. It looks and feels like an authentic window consisting many individual glass panes held together by the muntins made by craftsman in his Yankee workshop.</blockquote>


i'm not a huge fan of handmade craftsmanship. it's way overrated. in the 80s and 90s, people did not have many complaints for tract housing made from prefabricated, machined components. my research has shown that much of the recent nostalgia and re-affinity for traditional construction came about after the matrix triology, which falsely led people to mistrust machines and robots. even today as many americans have invited the roomba into their homes, 85% of roomba owners are still afraid of allowing the machine into their bedrooms for fear of surprise attacks in the middle of the night. much of this fear is unfounded -- roomba-on-owner violence occurs barely over 30% of the time.



products made with from human hands are prone to errors though. machines cannot create a shoddy window because they were lazy that day or got drunk during their lunch break. also there is a moral benefit in that machines cannot be exploited and paid substandard wages. they are happy getting a change of oil and the occasional "sup bro" acknowledgment.
 
If you want to change the color, or have dark windows as BK suggests, stay away from vinyl windows, as the dark paint will cause the vinyl to absorb more heat, which will cause the vinyl to warp.



The first question is where will the windows go? If they are high (clerestory), out of the way (closet in pre war homes), you can sive a little on the interior finish.



The best looking will be a wood clad window (interior = wood; exterior = cladding - vinyl, aluminum, fiberglass). If you live close to the ocean, you will probably want vinyl clad or fiberglass clad. If you are inland, aluminum clad is preferred. The aluminum is more rigid and less likely to chip or crack. However, changing colors is tough down the road, and salt can be tough on aluminum. Vinyl is cheap to produce, easier to produce as sealed (they just "weld" the seams together) for energy efficiency, but can not be painted dark on the exterior (although they are making some dark vinyl extrusions), and they look like they are vinyl. Fiberglass can be painted, but it is more expensive to produce, and the technology is newer.



On the interior, the wood can be composite (MDF), finger jointed short runs (individual pieces 4 - 12 inches), or laminate wood. The later is preferable, as there are less glue joints to fail, and more importantly, to "pop" through the paint - a common problem with finger jointing). The composites are a little rough for my tastes.



The creme de la creme of the window world in North America is Loewen. They use clear fir laminations, have great hardware, and the aluminum cladding is joined exceptionally tight.



Milgard makes an impressive fiberglass window, and I believe that they have a sash replacement system (rlacing the windows without taking out the sash).



If your windows are the classic pre-war wooden windows, the best bet is to just repair them - they will look better that way.
 
If anyone is having trouble with their dog and their roomba getting along, you can scold the vacuum in front of Fido. He/she will soon realize that you don't love roomba more than him/her and will stop trying to establish dominance over it. At least that's what I heard on NPR a few weeks ago and got quite a chuckle out of it.
 
[quote author="acpme" date=1213879531][quote author="bkshopr" date=1213768031]The 3rd is my favorite. It looks and feels like an authentic window consisting many individual glass panes held together by the muntins made by craftsman in his Yankee workshop.</blockquote>


i'm not a huge fan of handmade craftsmanship. it's way overrated. in the 80s and 90s, people did not have many complaints for tract housing made from prefabricated, machined components. my research has shown that much of the recent nostalgia and re-affinity for traditional construction came about after the matrix triology, which falsely led people to mistrust machines and robots. even today as many americans have invited the roomba into their homes, 85% of roomba owners are still afraid of allowing the machine into their bedrooms for fear of surprise attacks in the middle of the night. much of this fear is unfounded -- roomba-on-owner violence occurs barely over 30% of the time.



products made with from human hands are prone to errors though. machines cannot create a shoddy window because they were lazy that day or got drunk during their lunch break. also there is a moral benefit in that machines cannot be exploited and paid substandard wages. they are happy getting a change of oil and the occasional "sup bro" acknowledgment.</blockquote>


I totally agree with you. I like the assembly line windows that truly match the aesthetic of a hand made window.



Don't tell that to your spouse or girlfriend regarding their handbags.
 
Back
Top