Wilhelm's Chophouse, etc/Culinary Adventures
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Keanu_IHB
New member
That's too bad. I like Chat Noir and French 75 and they both closed. And now this "Americana" concept isn't working for them either. IMHO, they are in the wrong market. Try San Francisco, Vancouver (Canada), New York, Tokyo, or Paris... But not here.... esepcially in Irvine Marketplace. Wrong demographic for this type of restaurant.
EvaLSeraphim_IHB
New member
I'm shocked . . . or not. The food was good but horribly overpriced for what it was. The one time we went Chat, I was so appalled at the markup on the wine, that we pretty much decided not to go back. French 75 was casual bistro fare for a Pinot Provence bill. I am not surprised that once the easy money went away, they did too.
graphrix_IHB
New member
I am going to be harsh, but Wilhelm was an idiot with what he tried to do. I never went to any of his restaurants except for the original French 75, that he ruined. I just couldn't do it, the reviews were not up to par for a restaurant of the caliber he claimed. They never, ever compared to the higher end of restaurants like Chez Panisse, French Laundry, Black Sheep, and Pascual's. You can't go with a chain, just because OC is chain addicted, and think you can get CIA chef like prices, sorry moron. I will also be harsh on the rent demands of TIC, get your head out of your a$$, it will continue to cost you.
[quote author="graphrix" date=1219074717]I am going to be harsh, but Wilhelm was an idiot with what he tried to do. I never went to any of his restaurants except for the original French 75, that he ruined. I just couldn't do it, the reviews were not up to par for a restaurant of the caliber he claimed. They never, ever compared to the higher end of restaurants like Chez Panisse, French Laundry, Black Sheep, and Pascual's. You can't go with a chain, just because OC is chain addicted, and think you can get CIA chef like prices, sorry moron. I will also be harsh on the rent demands of TIC, get your head out of your a$$, it will continue to cost you.</blockquote>
You nailed it.
You nailed it.
momopi_IHB
New member
baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa~
In the mean time, you can always visit Black Sheep Bistro
<a href="http://www.blacksheepbistro.com/">http://www.blacksheepbistro.com/</a>
Has anyone dined at the Cellar lately? I heard that the previous owner had sold the place a few years back.
<a href="http://www.cellardining.com/">http://www.cellardining.com/</a>
In the mean time, you can always visit Black Sheep Bistro
<a href="http://www.blacksheepbistro.com/">http://www.blacksheepbistro.com/</a>
Has anyone dined at the Cellar lately? I heard that the previous owner had sold the place a few years back.
<a href="http://www.cellardining.com/">http://www.cellardining.com/</a>
tenmagnet_IHB
New member
[quote author="graphrix" date=1219074717]I am going to be harsh, but Wilhelm was an idiot with what he tried to do. I never went to any of his restaurants except for the original French 75, that he ruined. I just couldn't do it, the reviews were not up to par for a restaurant of the caliber he claimed. They never, ever compared to the higher end of restaurants like Chez Panisse, French Laundry, Black Sheep, and Pascual's. You can't go with a chain, just because OC is chain addicted, and think you can get CIA chef like prices, sorry moron. I will also be harsh on the rent demands of TIC, get your head out of your a$$, it will continue to cost you.</blockquote>
The location had a lot to do with it as well.
Before French 75, there was a Martin Yang?s China Bistro (something like that) located at that space in the Irvine Market place.
It was a high-end PF Changs that went bust shortly after it opened.
They renovated the space and turned it into French 75.
The food at French 75 was good.
I enjoyed eating there from time to time.
Only problem is that it lacked the high-end customers to sustain the business, imo.
The location had a lot to do with it as well.
Before French 75, there was a Martin Yang?s China Bistro (something like that) located at that space in the Irvine Market place.
It was a high-end PF Changs that went bust shortly after it opened.
They renovated the space and turned it into French 75.
The food at French 75 was good.
I enjoyed eating there from time to time.
Only problem is that it lacked the high-end customers to sustain the business, imo.
acpme_IHB
New member
[quote author="graphrix" date=1219074717]I am going to be harsh, but Wilhelm was an idiot with what he tried to do. I never went to any of his restaurants except for the original French 75, that he ruined. I just couldn't do it, the reviews were not up to par for a restaurant of the caliber he claimed. They never, ever compared to the higher end of restaurants like Chez Panisse, French Laundry, Black Sheep, and Pascual's. You can't go with a chain, just because OC is chain addicted, and think you can get CIA chef like prices, sorry moron. I will also be harsh on the rent demands of TIC, get your head out of your a$$, it will continue to cost you.</blockquote>
well i don't think anyone ever felt his restaurants were in the class of those places you mention. you guys make it sound like french75 is a $150 per head.
his biggest mistake imo was in the branding. few yrs back they had:
savannah - classic american chophouse, laguna niguel
sorrento grille - american bistro and martini bar, laguna beach
chimayo - california-inspired mexican/southwestern, fashion island and huntington beach
chat noir - french bistro and jazz lounge, south coast metro
french 75 - french bistro, laguna beach
i had never been to savannah but had been to all the others. chimayo was by far my favorite -- there was one at the current french75 location at fashion island and one directly off the sand in huntington beach. chat noir and french75 were differentiated in that the former was supposed to be more the casual jazz lounge in the arthouse district and the latter more upscale. reality was the menus were 99% the same except for the higher prices at french75. otherwise the themes and locations seemed to work.
chimayo or roys was a frequent option for taking clients. it never made much sense to take clients coming to OC to cheesecake factory, cpk, and the like... and they have roys in the major cities. so chimayo was a great choice since it was very representative of california cuisine and everyone always enjoyed the food.
a few yrs ago something went screwy in wilhelm's head and he decided to replace chimayo at fashion island with Rouge, an upscale french bistro. maybe they were saving costs by consolidating the menus at the diff restaurants. but it took one interesting concept and replaced it with something really ordinary. the lunch crowd really took a dive and we were among the formerly loyal customers that went elsewhere. whether you're on a business lunch or a newport nancy spending the afternoon at the mall, who wants to sit in a dark bistro at that time of day? on top of that, now they had three diff french eateries in their lineup. my friends always asked me since they knew i had been there, <em>do you like french75? </em> its just ok. <em> is it like chat noir? </em> actually it's the same. same menu, same owner. <em>ok, then between one of those two or the new place at fashion island?</em> um, actually thats the exact same too. very confusing...
so to clear up the confusion they rebranded rouge as french75. as his restaurants began to struggle, wilhelm was quoted saying the eclectic themes weren't working and they would rebrand some of the other eateries into either french75 or savannah. he believed french bistro and american chophouse were the two most enduring brands. so when they took over martin yan's senAsian spot at the mktplace, they branded that restaurant as french75 too. so now they had multiple french75's at a time when america was boycotting everything french. brilliant! chimayo at the beach became savannah at the beach. and in another unnecessary change, chat noir became savannah supper club.
savannah chat noir supper chophouse or whatever has the wonderful luck of sharing a parking lot with a mind-blowing steakhouse, mastros. as for savannah at the beach which has one of the prime locations in all of orange county, well it was a great idea to get rid of chimayo because when i think of dining over the edge of the sand at one of california's famous beaches, my first thought is... southern-style cookin' just like mama used to make it! brilliant thinking that people weren't interested in high-end coastal mexican cusine. (umm, JAVIER's says hello. hell, las brisas and it's far more overpriced so-so food and 30 yrs in business says hello.) when he finally realized the french75 concept was still struggling (no sh**, sherlock -- of all your brands, you decided to proliferate your LEAST interesting one), he changed the mktplace location to wilhelm's chophouse -- an even duller concept.
i finally went to savannah supper club for the first time few wks ago when they were doing a $40 4-course prixe fixe. everything was salty. i guess that's what they mean by americana style cuisine? too heavy and too salty? blech...
well i don't think anyone ever felt his restaurants were in the class of those places you mention. you guys make it sound like french75 is a $150 per head.
his biggest mistake imo was in the branding. few yrs back they had:
savannah - classic american chophouse, laguna niguel
sorrento grille - american bistro and martini bar, laguna beach
chimayo - california-inspired mexican/southwestern, fashion island and huntington beach
chat noir - french bistro and jazz lounge, south coast metro
french 75 - french bistro, laguna beach
i had never been to savannah but had been to all the others. chimayo was by far my favorite -- there was one at the current french75 location at fashion island and one directly off the sand in huntington beach. chat noir and french75 were differentiated in that the former was supposed to be more the casual jazz lounge in the arthouse district and the latter more upscale. reality was the menus were 99% the same except for the higher prices at french75. otherwise the themes and locations seemed to work.
chimayo or roys was a frequent option for taking clients. it never made much sense to take clients coming to OC to cheesecake factory, cpk, and the like... and they have roys in the major cities. so chimayo was a great choice since it was very representative of california cuisine and everyone always enjoyed the food.
a few yrs ago something went screwy in wilhelm's head and he decided to replace chimayo at fashion island with Rouge, an upscale french bistro. maybe they were saving costs by consolidating the menus at the diff restaurants. but it took one interesting concept and replaced it with something really ordinary. the lunch crowd really took a dive and we were among the formerly loyal customers that went elsewhere. whether you're on a business lunch or a newport nancy spending the afternoon at the mall, who wants to sit in a dark bistro at that time of day? on top of that, now they had three diff french eateries in their lineup. my friends always asked me since they knew i had been there, <em>do you like french75? </em> its just ok. <em> is it like chat noir? </em> actually it's the same. same menu, same owner. <em>ok, then between one of those two or the new place at fashion island?</em> um, actually thats the exact same too. very confusing...
so to clear up the confusion they rebranded rouge as french75. as his restaurants began to struggle, wilhelm was quoted saying the eclectic themes weren't working and they would rebrand some of the other eateries into either french75 or savannah. he believed french bistro and american chophouse were the two most enduring brands. so when they took over martin yan's senAsian spot at the mktplace, they branded that restaurant as french75 too. so now they had multiple french75's at a time when america was boycotting everything french. brilliant! chimayo at the beach became savannah at the beach. and in another unnecessary change, chat noir became savannah supper club.
savannah chat noir supper chophouse or whatever has the wonderful luck of sharing a parking lot with a mind-blowing steakhouse, mastros. as for savannah at the beach which has one of the prime locations in all of orange county, well it was a great idea to get rid of chimayo because when i think of dining over the edge of the sand at one of california's famous beaches, my first thought is... southern-style cookin' just like mama used to make it! brilliant thinking that people weren't interested in high-end coastal mexican cusine. (umm, JAVIER's says hello. hell, las brisas and it's far more overpriced so-so food and 30 yrs in business says hello.) when he finally realized the french75 concept was still struggling (no sh**, sherlock -- of all your brands, you decided to proliferate your LEAST interesting one), he changed the mktplace location to wilhelm's chophouse -- an even duller concept.
i finally went to savannah supper club for the first time few wks ago when they were doing a $40 4-course prixe fixe. everything was salty. i guess that's what they mean by americana style cuisine? too heavy and too salty? blech...
rickhunter_IHB
New member
Does anybody know how OPAH in Irvine is doing?
I know the one in Aliso packs them in.
As for disappointments in restaurants, I'm sorry to say I didnt get a chance to dine at Javier's Crystal Cove.
The place is a zoo! Guess who walked in and got seated right away? Guess.....DEREK Freakin JETER and NADY!
I know the one in Aliso packs them in.
As for disappointments in restaurants, I'm sorry to say I didnt get a chance to dine at Javier's Crystal Cove.
The place is a zoo! Guess who walked in and got seated right away? Guess.....DEREK Freakin JETER and NADY!
25w100k+_IHB
New member
savannah had some of the worst service i've ever experienced. I liked French 75 though. They had a nice bar. Wrong area though, the tustin/northpark crowd doesn't seem like the type to go to fancy dinners... They all have familys, and don't care too much about being 'hip'.
Bandera had better food then they did though, so thats my steak joint of choice for now.
Bandera had better food then they did though, so thats my steak joint of choice for now.
graphrix_IHB
New member
[quote author="rickhunter" date=1219209826]Does anybody know how OPAH in Irvine is doing?
I know the one in Aliso packs them in.
As for disappointments in restaurants, I'm sorry to say I didnt get a chance to dine at Javier's Crystal Cove.
The place is a zoo! Guess who walked in and got seated right away? Guess.....DEREK Freakin JETER and NADY!</blockquote>
That is a sin! All yankees must wait like the common people. If it were Vlad or GA, then I could accept that, but yankees do not deserve special service outside of NYC. I would have complained, no joke, I would have complained and said the same thing I just said.
I know the one in Aliso packs them in.
As for disappointments in restaurants, I'm sorry to say I didnt get a chance to dine at Javier's Crystal Cove.
The place is a zoo! Guess who walked in and got seated right away? Guess.....DEREK Freakin JETER and NADY!</blockquote>
That is a sin! All yankees must wait like the common people. If it were Vlad or GA, then I could accept that, but yankees do not deserve special service outside of NYC. I would have complained, no joke, I would have complained and said the same thing I just said.
25w100k+_IHB
New member
[quote author="graphrix" date=1219216305]
That is a sin! All yankees must wait like the common people. If it were Vlad or GA, then I could accept that, but yankees do not deserve special service outside of NYC. I would have complained, no joke, I would have complained and said the same thing I just said.</blockquote>
Agreed. And I support your logic.
That is a sin! All yankees must wait like the common people. If it were Vlad or GA, then I could accept that, but yankees do not deserve special service outside of NYC. I would have complained, no joke, I would have complained and said the same thing I just said.</blockquote>
Agreed. And I support your logic.
rickhunter_IHB
New member
I said a few things and you cant blame the restaurant. It's one of those things where people already paid the bill but they just dont leave.
We would have been seated 5 minutes later but... we just had to go!
The night was savaged when we went to Mastros in costa mesa, next to savannah. Did you know they have a Journey tribute singer?
Same Perry hair. He claims that he's going to be touring with the "real" band very soon. It was a Saturday night if you want to check it out.
[quote author="graphrix" date=1219216305][quote author="rickhunter" date=1219209826]Does anybody know how OPAH in Irvine is doing?
I know the one in Aliso packs them in.
As for disappointments in restaurants, I'm sorry to say I didnt get a chance to dine at Javier's Crystal Cove.
The place is a zoo! Guess who walked in and got seated right away? Guess.....DEREK Freakin JETER and NADY!</blockquote>
That is a sin! All yankees must wait like the common people. If it were Vlad or GA, then I could accept that, but yankees do not deserve special service outside of NYC. I would have complained, no joke, I would have complained and said the same thing I just said.</blockquote>
We would have been seated 5 minutes later but... we just had to go!
The night was savaged when we went to Mastros in costa mesa, next to savannah. Did you know they have a Journey tribute singer?
Same Perry hair. He claims that he's going to be touring with the "real" band very soon. It was a Saturday night if you want to check it out.
[quote author="graphrix" date=1219216305][quote author="rickhunter" date=1219209826]Does anybody know how OPAH in Irvine is doing?
I know the one in Aliso packs them in.
As for disappointments in restaurants, I'm sorry to say I didnt get a chance to dine at Javier's Crystal Cove.
The place is a zoo! Guess who walked in and got seated right away? Guess.....DEREK Freakin JETER and NADY!</blockquote>
That is a sin! All yankees must wait like the common people. If it were Vlad or GA, then I could accept that, but yankees do not deserve special service outside of NYC. I would have complained, no joke, I would have complained and said the same thing I just said.</blockquote>
biscuitninja_IHB
New member
I have a contact with Opah, i'll try to bring up the subject (since French 75 closed and The Chop House).
Otherwise everytime I go in we get great service (but we try to go in off hours). The Fri/Sat/Sun crowd seems to be doing well.
(Can't complain about the free drinks.... which is too bad since i rarely drink)
-bix
Otherwise everytime I go in we get great service (but we try to go in off hours). The Fri/Sat/Sun crowd seems to be doing well.
(Can't complain about the free drinks.... which is too bad since i rarely drink)
-bix
acpme_IHB
New member
[quote author="rickhunter" date=1219224577]I said a few things and you cant blame the restaurant. It's one of those things where people already paid the bill but they just dont leave. We would have been seated 5 minutes later but... we just had to go!</blockquote>
rick, round up a group of friends and they'll take a reservation. i was there just a wk ago with 15 or so people on a saturday night -- we made the reservations about a several wks in advance though. ask if they can put you in the medieval dining room, if those who have been there know the room i'm talking about. it's terrific ambiance!
they do in fact nudge you to leave after you're done so they can turn over the table and i've dined with others who felt that was rude. i can see how the restaurant is really in a tough position though. you have potential customers annoyed at the wait and paid customers annoyed at being encouraged to move along. it's a good problem to have i guess. despite the totally OC'd crowd, it's really a stellar bldg and the food really isn't any more expensive than say, olive garden. something you can't say about a lot of far worse restaurants around here.
rick, round up a group of friends and they'll take a reservation. i was there just a wk ago with 15 or so people on a saturday night -- we made the reservations about a several wks in advance though. ask if they can put you in the medieval dining room, if those who have been there know the room i'm talking about. it's terrific ambiance!
they do in fact nudge you to leave after you're done so they can turn over the table and i've dined with others who felt that was rude. i can see how the restaurant is really in a tough position though. you have potential customers annoyed at the wait and paid customers annoyed at being encouraged to move along. it's a good problem to have i guess. despite the totally OC'd crowd, it's really a stellar bldg and the food really isn't any more expensive than say, olive garden. something you can't say about a lot of far worse restaurants around here.
tenmagnet_IHB
New member
Who or what do you think will take over that space in the Irvine marketplace?
rickhunter_IHB
New member
I actually had a reservation for 2 and still waited for more than an hour.
I dont know why I had so much patience that day...
[quote author="acpme" date=1219275545]
rick, round up a group of friends and they'll take a reservation. i was there just a wk ago with 15 or so people on a saturday night -- we made the reservations about a several wks in advance though. ask if they can put you in the medieval dining room, if those who have been there know the room i'm talking about. it's terrific ambiance!
they do in fact nudge you to leave after you're done so they can turn over the table and i've dined with others who felt that was rude. i can see how the restaurant is really in a tough position though. you have potential customers annoyed at the wait and paid customers annoyed at being encouraged to move along. it's a good problem to have i guess. despite the totally OC'd crowd, it's really a stellar bldg and the food really isn't any more expensive than say, olive garden. something you can't say about a lot of far worse restaurants around here.</blockquote>
I dont know why I had so much patience that day...
[quote author="acpme" date=1219275545]
rick, round up a group of friends and they'll take a reservation. i was there just a wk ago with 15 or so people on a saturday night -- we made the reservations about a several wks in advance though. ask if they can put you in the medieval dining room, if those who have been there know the room i'm talking about. it's terrific ambiance!
they do in fact nudge you to leave after you're done so they can turn over the table and i've dined with others who felt that was rude. i can see how the restaurant is really in a tough position though. you have potential customers annoyed at the wait and paid customers annoyed at being encouraged to move along. it's a good problem to have i guess. despite the totally OC'd crowd, it's really a stellar bldg and the food really isn't any more expensive than say, olive garden. something you can't say about a lot of far worse restaurants around here.</blockquote>
rickhunter_IHB
New member
If you look around, the Red Robin and BJ's dominant on the Tustin and Irvine sides respectively.
I dont think the area will pull in high end clients since they rather hang out at the spectrum.
So if you want to make it in that location, it has to be family oriented or cheap like BJ's or a Red Robin.
I think a CHUCK E CHEESE's would tear it up at that location, or something of that nature...
[quote author="tenmagnet" date=1219278709]Who or what do you think will take over that space in the Irvine marketplace?</blockquote>
I dont think the area will pull in high end clients since they rather hang out at the spectrum.
So if you want to make it in that location, it has to be family oriented or cheap like BJ's or a Red Robin.
I think a CHUCK E CHEESE's would tear it up at that location, or something of that nature...
[quote author="tenmagnet" date=1219278709]Who or what do you think will take over that space in the Irvine marketplace?</blockquote>
acpme_IHB
New member
[quote author="rickhunter" date=1219287211]I actually had a reservation for 2 and still waited for more than an hour.
I dont know why I had so much patience that day...</blockquote>
ah yeah... a reservation for two is pretty much meaningless at a busy restaurant. there's really no way to know or guarantee when a table will be available. a reservation for a large party is more likely to be held since they have to prep the table or room ahead of time.
reminds me of the seinfeld episode...
<em>"See, you know how to take the reservation, you just don't know how to *hold* the reservation... and that's really the most important part of the reservation-- the holding. Anybody can just take them!"</em>
I dont know why I had so much patience that day...</blockquote>
ah yeah... a reservation for two is pretty much meaningless at a busy restaurant. there's really no way to know or guarantee when a table will be available. a reservation for a large party is more likely to be held since they have to prep the table or room ahead of time.
reminds me of the seinfeld episode...
<em>"See, you know how to take the reservation, you just don't know how to *hold* the reservation... and that's really the most important part of the reservation-- the holding. Anybody can just take them!"</em>