Why would someone need to buy?

The census in 2000 showed that there were 143,000 people residing in Irvine, of which approx. 30% were Asian, and approx. 15,000 were identified as ethnic Chinese. This means there were roughly 429,000 Asians residing in Irvine at the time, of which 35% were ethnic Chinese. It was also estimated that the % ratio of Asians living in Irvine had been growing by 1% annually up to 2000 (from 1970s?). We haven't had a census lately so I don't know what the numbers are like today.





Generally speaking ethnic Chinese (and East Asians in general) have a strong merchant culture. The presence of many ethnic commercial-retail outlets probably lead people to think the % of ethnic Chinese in Irvine-Asians is higher than the actual numbers. Looking at neighborhoods like Rowland Heights, I'd even say that the ethic Chinese in and near Irvine are "under-served" in commercial-retail due to master planning restrictions, but that will change in time. The same goes for ethnic Koreans in South OC.





If you open a Din Tai Fung in Irvine, I'm pretty sure it'd be packed every weekend. Asians love to eat and are willing to pay. But in terms of flavor and quality, Din Tai Fung in Arcadia is not as good as the ones in Asia. I once ate at a Din Tai Fung in Singapore and was charged $1 SGD "service fee" for sitting at their table, which pissed me off (I have to pay to sit here?) until someone explained to me that in Singapore and Malaysia many people don't tip.








As for the fried chicken thing... it's probably a combination of cultural and economic factors. Popey's chicken franchises aim for certain demographics where cheap buckets of spicy fried chicken would sell well, which sucks for me because I have to drive out of Irvine to get them. I've only eaten at Roscoe's Chicken in Pasadena and was not impressed.
 
<p>Hi Tyler, I think Gepetoh is right on the money. Beyond this however I must again stress that the "Asian Culture" is indeed dominated by the teachings of Confucius even if the government no longer accepts it. These beliefs are deep seated and would take generations to change. Just as one could argue that the "American Culture" is dominated by Judao-Christian teachings, even though our society has people from all different religions and our government is more or less secular.</p>
 
momopi


If you think Singapore Din Tai Fung is better than the one in Arcadia, you should go to Taipei.


On second thought, don't bother to look for Din Tai Fung when you are in Taipei. Lots places in Taiwan are better and much cheaper than Din Tai Fung. Those poor Taiwanese people here have no other choices they say, that is why they go to Arcadia. My wife wants me to say that it is I who forces her to go.
 
First I would like to thank everyone who contributed to this topic. You are all really intelligent people and I am humbled by many of your analytical thinking.





I like to explain the importance of my research in retail and housing.





Electronic companies like Sony and Apple pay a lot for data mining. Every search engine provider keeps track of your searches and web addresses. These are vital information sold to major companies for consumer research and product development. As we speak companies are tracking the frequency of this Irvine Housing Blog for valuable marketing and consumer psychology.





These data are extremely useful for introducing new products aiming for the broader base consumer across all races.

Asian is the biggest subgroup of this segment and has high disposable income. Every retail company wants to target this population. My research of Asian population is not all conclusive and I target upper middle class consumer and their idiosyncrasy. Some immigrants are at the lower income strata most builders and retailers have not been able to tap into their limited resources.





Because most upper middle class Chinese are frugal and save money every Asian banks have a branch in Irvine to target their savings with better interest rate than BA and Wells Fargo. There is a picture of it posted by Irvine Renter.

Knowing the preference of this Asian consumer group I create successful retail establishment. For example Premium Outlet Enterprise has several So Cal locations. The Camarillo outlets grossed poorly overall compared to Cabazon because the Camarillo location lack several Asian iconic key brands Armani, AX, Burberry, Gucci, Prada, and Tods I recently recommended to them to add Armani to improve its appeal to Asians. There are many English syllables and or long words that immigrants have difficulty in pronouncing so brands like Zegna and Abercrombie and Fitch are out. I advise my clients to develop easy names. Immigrants love their ABCs and 123s so restaurants and market ABC, NBC, CBS, MPV, 888, 99, 828, 328, and 168 are all good. Just avoid any 444 in everything from address to car series. Have you seen a 4 series in luxury cars?





Many considered me being bias or overly stereotyping a race. You and I do this everyday in one form or another. It is our instinct for making friends, choosing an employee, and avoiding potential danger. Some Caucasian men preferred Asian women also because of certain stereotyping attributes.





Most Asians in America prefer blending in with the peer group or among the audience and rarely as a subject of attention. Career like actor, actress, politician and singers are rare. We stereotype Asian actors immediately and that limit their career opportunity. They rarely play the leading romantic role kissing a beautiful actress on screen. We expect them to leap walls, skip walking on water, balancing on bamboo trees and do incredible kung fu moves and stunts.

We see Chinese as good engineers due to their good math and analytical thinking skill. Most Asians would pursue career where there is the greatest opportunity. They are brained washed by their parents to study for a job that make the most money without life threatening risk. Doctors and engineers rank at the top. Parents also preach their kids to study laws to make a lot of money but being the center of attention and public speaking scared off many. Police officers, firefighter, paramedic, and military are completely out of the picture.





As mentioned in my earlier posts Most Asians spent less time on sport activities. My client REI keeps a limited stock of smaller size apparels while the XXL is in highest demand. However, my research shows that Asian men love to play basketball and tennis in their neighborhood courts so I advice my local retail client like Sport Chalet, Big 5 and REI to keep more of the size8-10 basketball and tennis sneakers in stock. I also advise my clients to program in the master planned community’s basketball courts near the good feng shui houses targeting the Asian buyers.

Many of you will probably say I am nut. There is no such a house that is especially design just for Asians. A house is house for everyone including the White folks.





Chinese are very superstitious and do not want to inherit bad karma living in a resale. They prefer a new home. Death, divorce, bankruptcy, sickness, and infertility are considered negative energy just to name a few that they must avoid. Cheap foreclosure are sign ill finance. They want to buy a resale from a prosperous, healthy, happily married big family that made a ton of money and want to move up to a big custom home in Crystal Cove.





Here is my example of a house that is suited for an Asian family, Asian is taught to respect the elders and parents. After many years of handwork in raising kids, putting them through college, and paying for the son's wedding. (That’s right! parent pay for the son's wedding not the daughter unless she marries a Caucasian). Kids would reciprocate back by taking care of the aging parents. It is a disgrace for Asians to send parents to convalescent or some retirement communities out in the dessert. By the way, Asians hate dry heat and direct sun exposure.





Homes with a junior master bedroom downstairs in addition to the Master Bedroom upstairs are for the multi generational buyers like an Asian family. Caucasian could not stand having parents living in their homes compromising their romantic privacy. Older parents are very frugal and much of the down payment came from the older parents. Many are already grandparents. Their role of Chinese grand parents to nurture and baby sit grand children while mom and dad are at work. They forbid sending their heirs to an outside daycare. They prefer to enjoy the fruit of their labor, grand children. They teach them about their cultural heritage and drill them of their native language knowing that the learning window is limited to the earlier years before school.





Many grandparents do not speak English and their only entertainment is satellite TV and rented videos from the ethnic store in Irvine and as far as Westminster and the San Gabriel Valley. They can not drive so proximity to 99 Ranch market and Target is extremely important for the location of the home. Grand parents without a driver license can overcome the mobility issue by driving a golf cart on a public sidewalk. I encountered many grand parents in golf cart crossing Irvine Blvd. the morning time around the area of West Irvine. An oversized garage is ideal to house this cart. Many preferred walking often take the shopping carts into their neighborhoods or bus stops way beyond the boundary of the retail parking lot.





Chinese culture centered on eating. My restaurant research is entirely another subject. Fresh produce and meat are essential for their meals so grandparents shop everyday. They cook a several course meal with exotic soup. Since the method of stir fry cooking requires a really good back splash so a smaller second efficiency "wok or pasta kitchen" is perfect for the Chinese home buyers. I will be presenting to Albertson and Vons the proper ethnic food list to carry in many of their Irvine stores. I recommend eliminating La Choy from their shelves.





There are many facets to program a floor plan for various ethnic groups and their lifestyle. The possibilities are endless. I hope through this forum we can discuss this subject further. So far I have seen mostly financial and economic postings. Buying a house is not just about the right price tag and footage. Several years later buyers outgrown or grown dissatisfied with the floor plan function. No wonder most people move every 5 years.





Another Brand conscientious ethnic group is the Middle Easterners. Their lifestyle and spending is very different from the Chinese. Many Asia Minor Chinese are Muslim as mentioned by some bloggers.


























 
bkshopr, I hope no company is actually using your research, because if they do, they would be in a world of hurt. I did a marketing research project for Starbucks when I was in USC MBA program, and we found the exact opposite to your eight white one asian latta result. Using our marketing research, Starbucks opened no less than six stores within 2 miles of each other in the tri-city area known as Little Taipei aka Monterey park/SG/Alhambra. Your observation regarding family living together is totally off too. Have you ever been to either Shanghai or Beijing? It is very very rare to see people living with their parents in big Chinese cities. Unless you are talking about some Chinese farmer from some very very remote villages, you are not going to find three generation living under one roof. Sending grandkid back to China is far more common than have grand parents come here to take care of the kid due to the visa requirement. Regarding expensive cars, Chinese, especially people from mainland in their middle or late twenties, loves to buy German cars for two reasons. First, because they are NOT japanese. Young mainland Chinese hate Japanese, it is a national sport in China to bash Japanese whenever possible. Second, German cars, aside from VW, are very very expensive in China. Compare to US, a S class will sell for at least twice the US price.
 
Tourbillon, what was the essence of the marketing research that led to the Starbucks decision. I've been to the Starbucks' in Alhambra many times, and it sure isn't the immigrant Asian population that is frequenting them. The tea station in Alhambra? That's another story!
 
I used to live in Alhambra and those Starbucks have a whole different crowd compared to the demo that bkshopr was referring to. With the density in the area, I am surprised there aren't more Starbucks in that area of the San Gabriel Valley because for every 1 Starbucks I bet there are at least 10 Tea Stations, Lollicups, AU's...ect.
 
gepetoh





I don't think you got my point about the chicken. My point was that when you make generalizations you have to be very careful to make the comments relative to the research


group. Saying in general that "black people like chicken" is silly and not true, but saying "Blacks in the south like chicken" may very well be true. bkshopr never says what


his actual research group is, this makes me believe its just a bunch of meaningless stereotypes and not actual market research.



 
Regarding the ever popular tea station vs. starbucks. It will be interesting to know that Tea Station failed in both Shanghai and Beijing, whereas Starbucks are very successful in both cities. Generation Y Chinese behaves very differently comparing to earlier generation. I am a Generation Y Chinese myself, and what bk described sounded very alien to me. I think they might be valid twenty years ago, but I don't think they are valid today. Chinese from different regions tend to behave very differently due to their vastly different background. For example, I can not relate at all to Chinese from South East Asia because many of them suffered through war and refuge camp; something I have no experience at all. Physically, Chinese from South East Asia looks different from mainland Chinese as well, especially comparing to northern Chinese.
 
I am 34 years old from Beijing 10 years ago, I love starbucks. Use to get a venti/no room every morning until I get ulcer from drinking too much (also I only drink dark coffee, which makes it more hurtful to stomach). . Now I get it maybe once every the other day. I always wonder why the coffee in office does not taste as good as coffee in startbucks, even it is the same startbucks beans bought from costco, maybe the coffee machine is not as good as in the store.





I like different brand of startbucks, name a few: verona, gold coast, kenya, Ethopia, kodoma dragon, french roast... I prefer they change every couple weeks so I can have different taste.
 
tyler,


now you are making a really unreasonable comparisons, 'Africans to African Americans', its apples and oranges, stereotypes are useful because you use it everyday, the minute you see metal grates on the main entry to a home, would you even go in that home? You automatically stereotype the entire neighborhood, even if it is in Irvine! When you see 10 cars in the yard of the home next to the one you are looking at, wouldn't you stereotype the neighborhood as largely hispanic?





Why do we even laugh at racial stereotyped jokes?? Because its true!!





Market research is not end all be all, Starbucks buys every corner property they can grab a hold off, its the old corner store, community hangout theory, and they are the best retail property investments, Asians do not seek out great products on their own time, they wait until its hip to have it, then they want it, just like homes, if their asian neighbors tell them they are loosing out on not buying in woodbury, they will consider it, not because of all the fancy brochures they throw at you, they couldn't care less for avocado orchards....





Asians desire down to earth reliability, they are never attracted to fancy car ads with missiles chasing them because they are red hot (dodge magnum i think), they look for actual demonstrations like the string of toyota tundra ads you see, brilliant, white folk on the other hand are attracted to outrageous lavishness hence the crazy ads and mcmansions, huge homes yet they only one tiny stick of furniture to fill their lavish home.





bkshopr, spoke volumes about the chinese nuclear family, it is not your traditional American nucleus, which therefore will remove them from the 1bd to 2bd market, or anything below 1000 sf... I've seen one asian woman came in once at vientos and asked about the square footage for the 3bds, she scoffed at how small it was and left within a second.





tyler,


I'm a scientist, I believe in stats and algoritms and the works yet stats can still lie, when you factor the human component, no market research poll will ever give you the picture of you sample group better than field observation, the hardest and most reliable research you can do, market research are so skewed, its not even funny, ppl are paid to do it, or they have their own agenda to voice their deep seated feelings about a subject, you can't measure the average joe because they don;t care about anything, yet they are the largest consumer group out there...





The only difference today is the generation gap that may make all this moot, the pc and internet generation have turn to alternate sources of info for reviews, ideas, and above all information that had never been freely disseminated before, hence this site, that is what we are all here for........ to turn the tables on all BS 'market research' told us....
 
I think you and I are in agreement fundamentally Tyler, in that the generalization made by bkshopr is not necessarily true for vast majority of the Asians in the Southland (per my initial post). Where we disagree are regarding the basis of bk’s generalizations. He did not initially clarify the source of those generalizations so I can understand the disagreements, but I think he has since made it abundantly clear that those generalizations are based on a very limited demographics of Asians, and based on those statistical biases, I tend to agree with his findings (although mine is based solely on anecdotal experiences, albeit a lot of them). That’s enough about that.



Tourbillon,



I have a theory on your observations about Starbucks & Tea Station in China and U.S… My thinking is that in China, they are still “Americanizing”, and Starbucks is one of the factors that allow them to do so. In the U.S. however, my theory is that the Chinese-Americans want something “closer” to their homeland, and therefore they prefer the more “Asianized” version of a coffee/tea house. What do you think?
 
This discussion about the Asian targeted marketing seems to be focused on recent immigrants. Here in Irvine there is a large group of 2nd generation Asians who's parents might fit the bill, but they having grown up here, do not.





Most of the Asians that I know in my age group (early 30s) do not fit these stereotypes at all. They are as americanized as I am (I'm a white, 5th gen californian). These are the friends I grew up with in the 80s. They seem to be distancing themselves from the traditional values their parents held. Some are gay, some have dropped out of college, some have switched from bio to arts, some have moved away from OC and their family, etc. The common factor is that they pretty much hated their childhood.





I guess in the big picture that there is still a healthy stream of fresh immigrants that are close to BKSHPR's research and the second gen raised here is statistically too small a number to be measurable. Over time this would probably change I imagine. Who knows.
 
Um... China is a big place and there's a whole lot of differences between regions and generations. This is just from personal observations, no necessarily based on any statistics or studies:





For the older generation, Northern Chinese are taller and less lactose intolerant vs. Southern Chinese. You can attribute this to diet, genetics, whatever. I have a couple of older Northern Chinese coworkers who are 6' to 6'1", versus those from Hong Kong are all shorter. For the younger generation, due to better diet and nutrition, they're all getting taller so the height difference might not be as wide in the future.





The ethnic Chinese living in Malaysia has retained their traditional ways far better than those in China, HK, or Taiwan. These are usually of Southern Chinese stock (Teochow, Hakka, etc.) and still perform many old rituals. In Malaysia the Chinese have their own schools and the kids learn Chinese as well as Malay and English, most of them graduated from there should be fluent in mandarin. Some even went on to attend universities in Taiwan.





The Chinese in Singapore were forced to be westernized by Lee's policy, his government forced the closure of many Chinese schools, including the best Chinese studies department in SE Asia at Nanyang University many decades ago. Ironically Singapore also became the most successful example of how Western political reforms merged with traditional Chinese legalism. The older generation Singapore Chinese can speak their dialect and English, but often not Mandarin. The younger kids were taught Mandarin in "mother tongue" classes and have some degree of fluency.





After the Vietnam war and Sino-Vietnam war, many ethnic Chinese left Vietnam in waves of Vi?t Ki?u exodus. These are also of Southern Chinese stock and most are fluent in one or more Chinese dialects plus Vietnamese. The older generation tend to be very traditional, but their children rarely learn Mandarin and often identify themselves more with Vietnamese, or are quickly assimilated into US culture. I suspect they also have higher ratio of intermarriage with non-Chinese. They don't identify well with ethnic Chinese from Taiwan, but are happy to eat at the same restaurants. Many shops in Los Angeles Chinatown are run by this ethnic sub-group.





The ethnic Chinese from Taiwan have 3 sub-groups, those with ancestors from Fujian ("Taiwanese"), those from Hakka ethnic sub-group, and mainland Chinese that immigrated to Taiwan during the Chinese civil war. They have their own dialects but everyone learns Mandarin and traditional Chinese writing in school. After the Malaysian Chinese, I'd probably rank the Taiwanese as #2 in their capacity of retain traditional Chinese (or localized variants) culture and practices. Immigrants from this group dominates the Chinese-ethnic business scene across Southern California, with exception to Chinatown and Westminster area. This is why most Chinese newspapers, store signs, menus, etc. here are published in traditional Chinese (used by Taiwan and HK) and not the simplified script used in Mainland China and Singapore.





After Taiwan-immigrants, the #2 position for commercial dominance in ethnic-Chinese business here is probably those from Hong Kong. This group are fluent in Cantonese and learn traditional Chinese and English in HK schools. During British colonial era, those who can speak English with British accents are preferred by employers such as major UK banks in HK. Many Chinese from HK can actually speak Mandarin, but with heavy accent. Some of them are quite Euro-centric and think anything European is better than American.





The ethnic Chinese immigrated directly from China were still quite rare in 1980s, but slowly grew in numbers through 1990's. They learn Mandarin and simplified Chinese in school (in China), but since most Chinese schools here are dominated by Taiwan-immigrants, if they send their kids there, they'd learn traditional Chinese instead. The older generation endured decades of Maoism and tend to be quite cynical when it comes to government and politics. The younger male kids, like many from other cultures/countries, exhibit symptoms of "nationalism without a clue" and will eventually grow out of it as they age. This group didn't retain traditional Chinese culture well due to communist cultural oppression, those that excelled and made to the top were shrewed survivors like Deng, and in the post-Deng economic reform era, where the iron rice-bowl was broken, you survive by being very competitive. An example is taking a taxi in Shenzhen, where people line up, but when the taxi pulls up, everyone makes a grab for the door, and the first person who grabs the door handle gets the taxi.





Due to the declining birth rate in Taiwan and Hong Kong, the future ethnic-Chinese immigrants will shift toward those from mainland China. Despite speaking the same language, there are many differences between ethnic Chinese from Taiwan vs. China due to political, cultural, and environmental differences. Taiwan is on its way toward become a civilized society like Singapore, while China was set back to year 0 because of Mao and had to restart from scratch. To cite one example, people who ride the MRT in Taipei behave as well as the ones in Singapore, versus China, where some stupid low-class riders on high-speed bullet train would rip-off items from the bathroom to take home as souvenirs. So if the knob on the water facet is missing you know why. Communism destroyed the traditional Confucian gentlemen scholar ideal and it'd take many years, if not decades, for them to recover their civilization. Both communism and democracy are western imports to Asia that destroyed the traditional governing structure and caused a power struggle that killed millions. Some countries adjusted well to modernity, others did not.





So what does this mean to us? If you're doing business planning and looking at the ethnic-Chinese immigrant population, you should be aware that immigrants from China is growing versus those from Taiwan is on the decline. These 2 groups may have different tastes and preferences, so a business that works well catering to Taiwanese may not do well catering to Mainland Chinese, and vice versa.








P.S. I didn't spend much time on 2nd-3rd generation Asians here, mostly on 1st and "1.5" generation. This is because if the kids/grand kids assimilated into the mainstream, then their tastes and preferences would be similar to the mainstream and not in the "ethnic Chinese' category. Also, other sub-groups like Thai-Chinese and Tsinoys are very assimilated into Thai/Philippine culture and probably don't apply here.





If any of you don't agree with anything that I've said, and have an urge to flame or troll the thread, feel free to flame me directly at: momopi@mail.com.
 
momopi,





I don't think your post deserves any flaming even if someone does disagree because obviously from you've written, I can tell that it's a well thought-out post and makes a lot of sense (me being Chinese).





As you mentioned, the 2nd-3rd generation Asians will be more mainstream and have different tastes. I think bkshopr's target demographic are the 1st and 1.5 generation in the U.S. More specifically, they are the mid-upper to upper class that cities such as Arcadia, Diamond Bar, Roland Heights, San Marino and Irvine cater to.





So I don't understand why tourbillon keeps referring to the cities not in bkshopr's targeted area or even mainland China. I've yet to meet someone who bought a BMW or Benz because they were anti-Japanese. Even my father, who knows very well of the Japan/China's history of conflict, would only buy Japanese cars (in addition to a Benz one day ).





Also, living with 3+ generations in the household is very common here (SGV & east of the 605). I don't have to do a specific study to know that because I live in the area and went to school with bkshopr's demo. To be honest though, I would like to know what kind of research was actually done for bkshopr to come up with those conclusions.





OOO, I'm running off topic now. It's a slow day at work and felt compelled to respond to momopi's post since it was so long and helped pass the time.
 
Comment #5000!!!!





Congrats Zovall and Co!!!





I just want to express how much I've been enjoying these forums and this site in general! I'm a younger guy on here and I've been learning a lot, and this advice has certainly affected my family's real estate purchasing.





Thanks Again! ISB
 
Me and my wife are both 1-generation Chinese immigrants and we both received advanced-level education here in the States. We've living in Irvine for over 6 years, and we just simply love this place. But we are still renting because any reasonable residence is just out of reach for double-income normal people like us.





We want to thank the great work of irvinerenter for his/her posts in his own blog and this site.





I came across <a href="../../../account/262/">bkshopr</a>'s posts in this thread last night and pointed to my wife his comments. We immediately agreed that his analysis is dead on spot. The conclusion he draws will apply to over 90% of the 1st gen Chinese immigrants over 30 years old in this area. Some other comments in this thread also hold valid points though. But overall, Bkshopr's generalization is objective and simply based on the facts, at least from our perspective. I believe it is a critical factor to evaluate/assess the RE market in irvine.





I consider myself heavily influenced by western-style education and I myself have a distinct understanding of a lot of things than most 1st gen Chinese immigrants, but still I find myself fit in a few observations characterized by Bkshopr. Sth just simply is fused into your blood and living habits, and I can see this will be passed at least a few generations in my family. One thing I think I will never ditch and will forever try to keep in my family is the ability to write and read in Chinese. And for this reason only, not mentioning other things for convenience, I will consider to buy a house in Irvine. I don't want to commute in weekend just to put my kids in a Chinese school. I want this school to be very close to my community. Chinese or other East Asia ethnic groups strongly believe the importance of the environment/surrounding's influence to children's education and they always pursue the best they can afford.





I am not sure if anyone notices the city Cupertino in the bay area. It also has a high percentage of east Asian population and the RE there is rock solid stable. And, my personal experience is that living in Irvine is better than living in Cuptertino because Irvine is a planned city. As a result, I tend to be a little bit more conservative while predicting the down turn of the local RE market. I am not saying that there is no Chinese doing 100% financing, but mostly, the majority of East Asian people buy what they can afford.





It is true that there are many different branches of Chinese population all over the world due to numerous reasons involving politics, geo-economics and history reasons. It is also true that, given the radical evolvement of mainland Chinese society during the past 20 years which is totally driven by capitalism, 5-6 years difference in age can separate two generations with totally different value systems and tastes. But as long as they use Chinese characters, they all connect to each other via some cultural bond, and influence each other one way or the other. Often time, such a bond inevitably builds some mainstream traits in the person. The current young generation may like to drink Starbucks and eat Mcdonald's and KFC, at certain age, the influence from their relatives and the society will add tea and other Chinese food to their list.





Last, I am here just to share with you my point of view as a Chinese. People from other east Asian countries do share with us on a lot of beliefs, and that is because their homelands used to be influenced by Chinese culture somehow.
 
I tend to enjoy a large Green Tea with Boba (iced and no milk). You get the sharp, but sweet, taste w/o the added affects associated with being lactose intolerant.
 
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