25w100k+_IHB
New member
I'm just laughing that its ok to make racial comments but calling a girl woman a 'chick' gets a bunch of people up in arms.
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Frankly, I'm offended by both. I don't understand why it has recently become acceptable to guise racism against the Hispanics in a way that makes people think they are not being racist. i.e "it's only the illegals that bother me. " It really bothers me how much we benefit from the Hispanic immigrants, yet we argue that they are taking from us.
PS women don't like being called chicks OR girls when we are adults
N_V_
I'm glad they could help your family - in both cases...and as a good Cal grad, I would certainly not take anything away from your positive experiences.
But if this turns into a pie throwing contest, I can take it all the way back to Leland Stanford if need be.
Go Cal!
I must have missed the exchange that led to that response, but certainly you're not saying that the only "illegals" are Hispanic, right? FWIW, I am greatly upset about illegal immigration - and race has nothing to do with it.
Selective criticism? Some people should get off their high horses. These are the same ones that have posted sexual innuendos in the past. And now sit there and preach "I am holier than thou."? Move on and leave the guy alone.
Immigration greatly benefits us. Illegal immigration damages both the immigrant and us. Take a look at the kosher plant in the midwest that was raided lately and explain the benefits of illegal immigration.
I got bad news for you. Legal or illegal, 2ed gen americans won't do that sort of work for the wages you're prepared to absorb as a consumer.
You can take my word for it, or chose to not believe it, but I'm not wrong and know something about the food industry.
Sorry, but that is completely wrong. Take a look at history... But I don't get the 2nd generation bit... if you are born here, you are a citizen...
Looking at the progression on this thread - I'd say it has long since been hijacked.
We're alredy paying the cost they're just hidden from us. They're negative externalities. Illegal labor is bad. It abuses the workers, profits the greedy employers and passes the costs to the taxpayers and citizens in the form of higher infrastructure costs whether they consume the good or not.
You're quite correct on your topic of transfer costing. But it neglects the reality of the brutal work that goes into what you have in your refrigerator, and who does it. In this respect, from an academic perspective, you are correct but at the same time you are living in more denial of reality than the permabears on Lassners' blog.
My grandparents came here (illegally!) from Oklahoma during the dust bowl (big signs at the border "Okies go home! No work here!). They were starving back home. Mexicans (and others) come here some eighty years later for the same reason. And they take the same shit jobs my grandparents took 80 years ago. I hate to pull the holyier than thou card here, but you've never done the work, you have no idea how really brutal it is. Biscutninja (who posts here) OTOH, has.
For better or worse, this country is built on the backs of the migrant labor, both today and years past. Before Mexicans it was Filipinos and Japanese, before them the Italians, before them the Irish, before them the Chinese. They are stranded and broke thousands of miles from home and don't have a choice. They do the jobs that second gen imigrants won't for two reasons - it's too hard (for the most part, second gen American residents have never known any hardship short of the cable being turned off), and it's better than the shithole they left.
Given a choice, they'd allmost all move back home, but it's not an option. It wasn't an option for my grandparents and it's not an option for the people who pick your fruit, process your meats, fix your cars, prepare meals for you at resturants, mow your lawns, clean your hotels, and (increasingly) watch your kids while you're at work.
Believe what you want, but there are very few second gen folks doing the abovementioned jobs.
If what you wrote here was true and workable, we would not be having this discussion here and now. I used to farm grapes. My wife and I left her family farm in 2001 because my father in law could not adapt to getting his costs in line (hiring contractors who skirted the employeer contribution by going out of business exactly once a year) instead of hiring his own employees and doing it above board. As a result, he lost his farm and I had to move here. It wasn't by choice. Just like my Okie grandparents did 80 years ago. Just like all my Mexican customers.
The growers are price takers, not price makers. The winners play a sick game of transfer costing and sticking somebody else with the bill.
stepping_up_IHB
New member
25w100k+ said:
Frankly, I'm offended by both. I don't understand why it has recently become acceptable to guise racism against the Hispanics in a way that makes people think they are not being racist. i.e "it's only the illegals that bother me. " It really bothers me how much we benefit from the Hispanic immigrants, yet we argue that they are taking from us.
stepping_up_IHB
New member
25w100k+ said:
PS women don't like being called chicks OR girls when we are adults
GrewUpInIrvine_IHB
New member
no_vaseline said:
N_V_
I'm glad they could help your family - in both cases...and as a good Cal grad, I would certainly not take anything away from your positive experiences.
But if this turns into a pie throwing contest, I can take it all the way back to Leland Stanford if need be.
Go Cal!
momopi_IHB
New member
Just my $0.02.
There's a time and place for uninhibited behavior, such as attending a Renaissance Pleasure Faire, and staying after hours in the "Friends of the Fair" tent area.
If this was a Ren Fair forum and people want to chat about ale, mead, and the new girl dressed in provocative outfit, by all means go for it.
But this is an Irvine RE forum and I think such discussions belong in the water cooler, or off-topic area. I know, it's not easy. I often have to censor myself from inserting too many comments about building bunkers and fortifying it with a collection of muzzle-loading rifles. Or about melting down lead fishing sinkers to make musket balls.
If you enjoy a hedonist or bohemian lifestyle, good for you. If you want to discuss that lifestyle, you can start a new thread here:
http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/forums/viewforum/5/
There's a time and place for uninhibited behavior, such as attending a Renaissance Pleasure Faire, and staying after hours in the "Friends of the Fair" tent area.
If this was a Ren Fair forum and people want to chat about ale, mead, and the new girl dressed in provocative outfit, by all means go for it.
But this is an Irvine RE forum and I think such discussions belong in the water cooler, or off-topic area. I know, it's not easy. I often have to censor myself from inserting too many comments about building bunkers and fortifying it with a collection of muzzle-loading rifles. Or about melting down lead fishing sinkers to make musket balls.
If you enjoy a hedonist or bohemian lifestyle, good for you. If you want to discuss that lifestyle, you can start a new thread here:
http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/forums/viewforum/5/
GrewUpInIrvine_IHB
New member
stepping_up said:
I must have missed the exchange that led to that response, but certainly you're not saying that the only "illegals" are Hispanic, right? FWIW, I am greatly upset about illegal immigration - and race has nothing to do with it.
reason_IHB
New member
tenmagnet said:
Selective criticism? Some people should get off their high horses. These are the same ones that have posted sexual innuendos in the past. And now sit there and preach "I am holier than thou."? Move on and leave the guy alone.
Trooper_IHB
New member
These are the same ones that have posted sexual innuendos in the past. And now sit there and preach “I am holier than thou.”?
examples please. I do believe you are confusing us with other posters.
And as expected, even though I have "ignored" ten, reason copied his last post when he was replying to him. So in it I see the reference to the AGC. Ten, I never liked the AGC photo and I actually had a discussion with Graph about it's posting. So I have stepped up in the past about it...fyi. I just didn't have to do it publicly because I know Graph. It hasn't been posted since.
I think that (most of) the women on this blog would just prefer if you showed a little more respect in your posts. That's all.
Graph, I still love ya too.
examples please. I do believe you are confusing us with other posters.
And as expected, even though I have "ignored" ten, reason copied his last post when he was replying to him. So in it I see the reference to the AGC. Ten, I never liked the AGC photo and I actually had a discussion with Graph about it's posting. So I have stepped up in the past about it...fyi. I just didn't have to do it publicly because I know Graph. It hasn't been posted since.
I think that (most of) the women on this blog would just prefer if you showed a little more respect in your posts. That's all.
Graph, I still love ya too.
No_Such_Reality_IHB
New member
Step, there is a big difference between immigration and illegal immigration.stepping_up said:
Immigration greatly benefits us. Illegal immigration damages both the immigrant and us. Take a look at the kosher plant in the midwest that was raided lately and explain the benefits of illegal immigration.
no_vaseline_IHB
New member
Come on y'all, somebody get back to dissing Stanford, the grad school I passed on in order to go to Fresno State.
no_vaseline_IHB
New member
No_Such_Reality said:
I got bad news for you. Legal or illegal, 2ed gen americans won't do that sort of work for the wages you're prepared to absorb as a consumer.
You can take my word for it, or chose to not believe it, but I'm not wrong and know something about the food industry.
PeterUK_IHB
New member
GrewUpInIrvine_IHB
New member
no_vaseline said:
Sorry, but that is completely wrong. Take a look at history... But I don't get the 2nd generation bit... if you are born here, you are a citizen...
Looking at the progression on this thread - I'd say it has long since been hijacked.
PANDA_IHB
New member
Alright, let's get this Bad Boy back on track:
Thanks for all of you who shared what you love about Irvine. Now, let's share the otherside, "What you don't like about Irvine"
These are the general things i don't like about Irvine:
1) Getting stressed out by keeping up with the Jones. As high school students compete at University High, Adults compete by status, money, and power.
2) Being judged for the car you drive (BMW/Mecedes vs. Honda/Toyota), Your household income, your profession. I am sure it is like this in other places, but much more magnified in OC and Irvine.
3) Challenge of raising our children with good values in this extreme material place, teaching them good ethics in terms of money, that money don't grow on trees, and not spoiling them by buying them a brand new BMW on their 16th birthday just because their friends parents living in Shady Canyon did.
4) The fact that the high schools in Irvine are so cut - throat : competitve that your children will start developing brain ulcers.
5) Irvine Homeowners think they are 1st class citizens while looking at Irvine Renters as 3rd class. Same thing goes with neighborhoods: I live in Turtlerock/Turtleridge/Shady Canyon, therefore I am a class above you guys living in West Irvine, Northwood, PS, WB, and University Park.
6) Irvine is nicely manicured place for Ken and Barbie, where everything is seems so perfect. It does not represent a normal suburban city in the United States.
7) The fact that Graph says that "TenMag" is reflective of a portion of society in OC and Irvine, therefore we need to accept it.
8) In the south where I am from, wives have the choice not to work to raise their children, in Irvine, many don't have that option as it is difficult to make ends meet on one income in Irvine.
Again these are just my general personal opinions what i don't like about Irvine, some of you may disagree. Of course this does not apply to everyone living here.
Panda
My first post on this thread.
Here are the reasons I love Irvine.
1) I love the fact that Irvine is only only a 15 minute drive away from laguana beach (the most beautiful beach in my opinion).
2) I love the fact that the weather in Irvine is perfect
3) I love the fact that Irvine is the melting pot of all ethnic backgrounds : white, chinese, korean, indian, flipinos, hispanics, vietnamese: we can all get along.
4) I love the fact that I can be proud of being an asian american in Irvine, without being discriminated.
5) I love the fact that Irvine provides a small entrepeneur with big dreams to become an enterprise.
6) I love the fact that Irvine is the next hot bed for Tech Startups ( Silicon Valley of Southern California )
7) I love that fact that HMART ( my favorite Korean Super Market ) is moving in as the anchor for the Jamboree Shopping Center in summer of 2008.
8) I love the fact that John Wayne airport is so close by since i travel a lot for business.
9) I love the fact that Irvine is right in the middle of LA and San Diego.
10) And most importantly, I love IRVINE Real Estate, and I also love this Blog!
Thanks for all of you who shared what you love about Irvine. Now, let's share the otherside, "What you don't like about Irvine"
These are the general things i don't like about Irvine:
1) Getting stressed out by keeping up with the Jones. As high school students compete at University High, Adults compete by status, money, and power.
2) Being judged for the car you drive (BMW/Mecedes vs. Honda/Toyota), Your household income, your profession. I am sure it is like this in other places, but much more magnified in OC and Irvine.
3) Challenge of raising our children with good values in this extreme material place, teaching them good ethics in terms of money, that money don't grow on trees, and not spoiling them by buying them a brand new BMW on their 16th birthday just because their friends parents living in Shady Canyon did.
4) The fact that the high schools in Irvine are so cut - throat : competitve that your children will start developing brain ulcers.
5) Irvine Homeowners think they are 1st class citizens while looking at Irvine Renters as 3rd class. Same thing goes with neighborhoods: I live in Turtlerock/Turtleridge/Shady Canyon, therefore I am a class above you guys living in West Irvine, Northwood, PS, WB, and University Park.
6) Irvine is nicely manicured place for Ken and Barbie, where everything is seems so perfect. It does not represent a normal suburban city in the United States.
7) The fact that Graph says that "TenMag" is reflective of a portion of society in OC and Irvine, therefore we need to accept it.
8) In the south where I am from, wives have the choice not to work to raise their children, in Irvine, many don't have that option as it is difficult to make ends meet on one income in Irvine.
Again these are just my general personal opinions what i don't like about Irvine, some of you may disagree. Of course this does not apply to everyone living here.
Panda
My first post on this thread.
Here are the reasons I love Irvine.
1) I love the fact that Irvine is only only a 15 minute drive away from laguana beach (the most beautiful beach in my opinion).
2) I love the fact that the weather in Irvine is perfect
3) I love the fact that Irvine is the melting pot of all ethnic backgrounds : white, chinese, korean, indian, flipinos, hispanics, vietnamese: we can all get along.
4) I love the fact that I can be proud of being an asian american in Irvine, without being discriminated.
5) I love the fact that Irvine provides a small entrepeneur with big dreams to become an enterprise.
6) I love the fact that Irvine is the next hot bed for Tech Startups ( Silicon Valley of Southern California )
7) I love that fact that HMART ( my favorite Korean Super Market ) is moving in as the anchor for the Jamboree Shopping Center in summer of 2008.
8) I love the fact that John Wayne airport is so close by since i travel a lot for business.
9) I love the fact that Irvine is right in the middle of LA and San Diego.
10) And most importantly, I love IRVINE Real Estate, and I also love this Blog!
No_Such_Reality_IHB
New member
no_vaseline said:
We're alredy paying the cost they're just hidden from us. They're negative externalities. Illegal labor is bad. It abuses the workers, profits the greedy employers and passes the costs to the taxpayers and citizens in the form of higher infrastructure costs whether they consume the good or not.
GrewUpInIrvine_IHB
New member
What I do not like about Irvine:
1. Over-development. If you add too many people to anything, it goes to hell. I first lived in Irvine in the mid-80's. While Irvine is still a great option today, I can see a certain dimunition in the quality of life... But again, it is still heads and shoulders above most of Los Angeles County (except Manhattan Beach) and much of Orange County.
What happens with over-development and over-population? Just look at Los Angeles County. No open space. Obscene traffick. Sub-standard schools. High Crime. Broken Social & Public Services. A complete inabiilty to integrate new-comers into an American society... and an increasing balkanization of social groups... which is creating intense social pressures below the veneer of political correctness.
1. Over-development. If you add too many people to anything, it goes to hell. I first lived in Irvine in the mid-80's. While Irvine is still a great option today, I can see a certain dimunition in the quality of life... But again, it is still heads and shoulders above most of Los Angeles County (except Manhattan Beach) and much of Orange County.
What happens with over-development and over-population? Just look at Los Angeles County. No open space. Obscene traffick. Sub-standard schools. High Crime. Broken Social & Public Services. A complete inabiilty to integrate new-comers into an American society... and an increasing balkanization of social groups... which is creating intense social pressures below the veneer of political correctness.
hs_teacher_IHB
New member
What I don't like about Irvine:
1. No distinct culture. Irvine is known to be clean, nice, quiet, safe, and new. Basically, you can build an Irvine anywhere in the US. Whereas Huntington Beach has a very distinct beach culture. There's really nowhere in the US that is identical to HB. But compared to places like Santa Ana, Anaheim, and Garden Grove - I guess there's really nothing else to complain about.
1. No distinct culture. Irvine is known to be clean, nice, quiet, safe, and new. Basically, you can build an Irvine anywhere in the US. Whereas Huntington Beach has a very distinct beach culture. There's really nowhere in the US that is identical to HB. But compared to places like Santa Ana, Anaheim, and Garden Grove - I guess there's really nothing else to complain about.
no_vaseline_IHB
New member
No_Such_Reality said:
You're quite correct on your topic of transfer costing. But it neglects the reality of the brutal work that goes into what you have in your refrigerator, and who does it. In this respect, from an academic perspective, you are correct but at the same time you are living in more denial of reality than the permabears on Lassners' blog.
My grandparents came here (illegally!) from Oklahoma during the dust bowl (big signs at the border "Okies go home! No work here!). They were starving back home. Mexicans (and others) come here some eighty years later for the same reason. And they take the same shit jobs my grandparents took 80 years ago. I hate to pull the holyier than thou card here, but you've never done the work, you have no idea how really brutal it is. Biscutninja (who posts here) OTOH, has.
For better or worse, this country is built on the backs of the migrant labor, both today and years past. Before Mexicans it was Filipinos and Japanese, before them the Italians, before them the Irish, before them the Chinese. They are stranded and broke thousands of miles from home and don't have a choice. They do the jobs that second gen imigrants won't for two reasons - it's too hard (for the most part, second gen American residents have never known any hardship short of the cable being turned off), and it's better than the shithole they left.
Given a choice, they'd allmost all move back home, but it's not an option. It wasn't an option for my grandparents and it's not an option for the people who pick your fruit, process your meats, fix your cars, prepare meals for you at resturants, mow your lawns, clean your hotels, and (increasingly) watch your kids while you're at work.
Believe what you want, but there are very few second gen folks doing the abovementioned jobs.
No_Such_Reality_IHB
New member
6%. That's the cost increase.http://www.cis.org/articles/1996/back296.htm
The issue isn't about migrant workers or immigrants. It is about tolerating corporations hiring, encouraging and abusing non-citizens and dumping the costs on the citizens.
If we need 10 million migrant foriegn workers to pick crops, then let's create a lottery for migrant workers where winning allows you to work for five years, establish some baseline OSHA rules, mandate the tax payments, provide identification, health insurance and roll with it. I think most of us can afford to pay more than 89 cents a pound for grapes if it means our health care system will be a little less flooded with uninsured.
The issue isn't about migrant workers or immigrants. It is about tolerating corporations hiring, encouraging and abusing non-citizens and dumping the costs on the citizens.
If we need 10 million migrant foriegn workers to pick crops, then let's create a lottery for migrant workers where winning allows you to work for five years, establish some baseline OSHA rules, mandate the tax payments, provide identification, health insurance and roll with it. I think most of us can afford to pay more than 89 cents a pound for grapes if it means our health care system will be a little less flooded with uninsured.
no_vaseline_IHB
New member
No_Such_Reality said:
If what you wrote here was true and workable, we would not be having this discussion here and now. I used to farm grapes. My wife and I left her family farm in 2001 because my father in law could not adapt to getting his costs in line (hiring contractors who skirted the employeer contribution by going out of business exactly once a year) instead of hiring his own employees and doing it above board. As a result, he lost his farm and I had to move here. It wasn't by choice. Just like my Okie grandparents did 80 years ago. Just like all my Mexican customers.
The growers are price takers, not price makers. The winners play a sick game of transfer costing and sticking somebody else with the bill.