We've arrived at Socialism

[quote author="T!m" date=1236234095][quote author="trrenter" date=1236213720]

At some point the wealthy will just pack their stuff up and leave.



People move to FL. to avoid state income taxes why wouldn't they leave US?</blockquote>


Wasn't the top tax bracket something like 90% a long time ago? I don't recall the US lacking for rich people then. The super wealthy don't work just to make money. Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and Warren Buffet had plenty of money years ago. I've never heard of someone quitting work or leaving the US due to taxes. I'm sure there is an exception, but I'm not going to worry about it until it becomes a trend.</blockquote>


Not in the United States. The top rate was 70% when President Reagan took office. It was 28% when he left office.
 
[quote author="jefa" date=1236240002]The tax system is set up the way it is so that the people who have the largest percentage of wealth pay the same percentage in taxes. So you have sales tax, property tax, payroll tax, etc etc, and the idea is that the people who have 50% of the wealth in this country cover about 50% of the costs of keeping the country running.



i.e. 5% of our population has 30% of the wealth and pays 30% of the costs per year to keep the nation running. (I pulled that figure out of thin air).



In general, over the last several decades, we've kept vaguely around this target.



So you can argue from a payroll taxation perspective (People who make 10k don't contribute any money). But people who make 10k, generally spend 10k on taxable things, so they pay about 6 to 10% back into running the country. But because that amount is miniscule compared to someone who buys a jet for 20 million and pays luxury tax on that, then their contribution is statistically insignificant by comparison.



Now as far as the socialism aspect, I guess we should concentrate on 50% of the services benefiting only the people who control 50% of the wealth. So that it's all fair. ;)</blockquote>


We don't tax wealth.



We tax income. Simple research show your premise is flawed. The high income earners pay a far greater percentage of their income to taxes than their share of income.



http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html
 
[quote author="WINEX" date=1236251682][quote author="T!m" date=1236234095][quote author="trrenter" date=1236213720]

At some point the wealthy will just pack their stuff up and leave.



People move to FL. to avoid state income taxes why wouldn't they leave US?</blockquote>


Wasn't the top tax bracket something like 90% a long time ago? I don't recall the US lacking for rich people then. The super wealthy don't work just to make money. Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and Warren Buffet had plenty of money years ago. I've never heard of someone quitting work or leaving the US due to taxes. I'm sure there is an exception, but I'm not going to worry about it until it becomes a trend.</blockquote>


Not in the United States. The top rate was 70% when President Reagan took office. It was 28% when he left office.</blockquote>


Actually it looks like the highest rate was about 94%. They went up during the Great Depressions and World Wars. I don't imagine that during a time of World War the rich would leave.
 
Just 53 Percent Say Capitalism Is Preferable To Socialism



<A href="http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/04/09/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4931888.shtml">http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/04/09/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4931888.shtml</A>
 
[quote author="Anonymous" date=1241479977]Just 53 Percent Say Capitalism Is Preferable To Socialism



<A href="http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/04/09/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4931888.shtml">http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/04/09/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4931888.shtml</A></blockquote>


What percentage doesn't know/understand what capitalism is?
 
[quote author="green_cactus" date=1241523819][quote author="Anonymous" date=1241479977]Just 53 Percent Say Capitalism Is Preferable To Socialism



<A href="http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/04/09/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4931888.shtml">http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/04/09/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4931888.shtml</A></blockquote>


What percentage doesn't know/understand what capitalism is?</blockquote>


I think many people think

capitalism = what we have now

and this sucks for me, I don't get it and I feel ripped off by others who are better at playing the system

so I want to get that stuff that other people have, it's not fair that they have it and I don't (ie. socalism)



so the poll is somewhat accurate.
 
Whenever anyone brings up the "wealthy pay more taxes" argument, I would direct them to Warren Buffet's observation that his secretary pays more taxes (percentage wise) than he does.



<a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ece">http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/money/tax/article1996735.ece</a>



<a href="http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/01/taxes-warren-buffett-and-paying-my-fair-share/">http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/01/taxes-warren-buffett-and-paying-my-fair-share/</a>



<a href="http://members.forbes.com/forbes/2007/1126/042b.html">http://members.forbes.com/forbes/2007/1126/042b.html</a>
 
Perhaps socialism isn't so bad...



<a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30363790">In Europe, social safety net softens the slump</a>



<blockquote>Misery below the surface, perhaps? Not at the bustling Fuerstenberger home just outside Heidelberg, where little has changed for the family's four children despite neither parent currently working.



?If we were in Detroit, we could worry every minute,? said Sarah Fuerstenberger, 37. ?But here, we?re safe because of the system."



While economic forecasts are just as dire on this continent as in the United States, Germany?s citizens ? and, indeed, most across western Europe ? can count on a broad government safety net that includes generous unemployment checks, universal healthcare and inexpensive university education to tide them over.



?The German government is really good about taking care of people; we know we won?t be starving one way or another," she added. </blockquote>
 
I think the GOP types are trying to use the English language against the Dems again - tie "Socialism" as the new 1990s "Liberal" buzzword. Problem is, I don't think it's accurate.



What Hugo Chavez is doing is NATIONALISM.



What the Obama folks are doing (in regard to banks and autos) is RECIEVERSHIP.
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1241736125]I think the GOP types are trying to use the English language against the Dems again - tie "Socialism" as the new 1990s "Liberal" buzzword. Problem is, I don't think it's accurate.



What Hugo Chavez is doing is NATIONALISM.



What the Obama folks are doing (in regard to banks and autos) is RECIEVERSHIP.</blockquote>


You'll find that the right wing rhetoric is using "fascism" more often now. It seems that the general public was not so adverse to their label of "socialism", especially when it comes down to safety nets in times of economic crisis.
 
[quote author="no_vaseline" date=1241736125]I think the GOP types are trying to use the English language against the Dems again - tie "Socialism" as the new 1990s "Liberal" buzzword. Problem is, I don't think it's accurate.



What Hugo Chavez is doing is NATIONALISM.



What the Obama folks are doing (in regard to banks and autos) is RECIEVERSHIP.</blockquote>


It doesn't really matter what you call it (although I really like your take on it as it being receivership)-what Obama is doing (overall) is POPULAR. He has high job ratings and higher personal favorability ratings. Just screaming about high taxes is not the way for Republicans to win friends (and elections) and influence people. Right now, it looks like the Democrats will pick up several Senate seats come 2010 (possibly as many as a net gain of 5), pushing their numbers way over 60 (and that's not counting the party switch by Specter and the inevitable, if slow, win by Franken). The House is harder to predict, but there's nothing that indicates that the Republicans will gain seats.



<a href="http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/05/senate-rankings-may-2009-edition.html">Senate predictions-Six of the top seven most vulnerable Senate seats currently belong to Republicans</a>
 
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