Theology Thread

E

EvaLSeraphim_IHB

New member
Here's a theology / religion thread for those that seemed to be interested (I'm looking at you Liz & No_Vas). :cheese:



So, to start things off (and sorry for the Protestant bent), what's the point of trying to convert people if life is a matter of either predestination or free will?



Or... Anyone familiar with the (irreverent) books of James Morrow ("Towing Jehovah," "Only Begotten Daughter," etc.)? Any thoughts?
 
I am not qualified to speak to theology. Yet. Which is why I'm studying.



My interest in reading the history of religion is to get a better grasp on the formation of religion, but with the focus on how the Jesuits came to thier mission of today. It is my intention to become an active parishiner in a Jesuit parish. I'm sure they can use me. I'm sure I can use them. I have a mean edge that needs tempering. I'm hoping I can learn that temperment while being an active particpant in thier mission.



Anyway, it did wonders for my granddad, my uncle, and the late Tim Russert. We'll see if it works for me.



I sincerely miss the Catholic church.
 
Yeah, a theology thread!!!!



I thought of it, but dared not.



As to predestination, it all fits in a clockwork universe, but that started going

away a 100 years ago.



Heisenberg's uncertainly principle says once you get down to a certain very small

size, your probe alters what you are measuring, such that you can't measure

everything you wanna. One can imagine smaller and smaller probes, but you

are getting down to quantum reality there, and what kind of probes are physically

possible, which I don't understand.



That, together with chaos theory, (the butterfly effect) says that very small

changes can have very big effects.



This leaves free will alive and well, and very mysterious, but with lots to think

about and investigate.



This also begs the question about God. The God of the clockwork universe can

know all things. Can a God theoretically exist in a quantum/Heisenbergian/chaos

theory universe? That is a God who can know all things?



I think that religion painted itself into a corner when math and science started to

think about concepts of infinity and points during the last coupla thousand years.



Infinity!! We have to have that for our God/dess. The older gods were limited;

tho mostly non dying; they couldn't do everything they wanted, they fight among

themselves. See the Iliad and Odessey. Norse gods didn't even have eternal

life. Jupiter was definely headed in the direction of the Christian god, which I think

stole huge hucks of Jupiter. Including that suffering is something that somehow teaches

and tests us.



There is something to that, but not a lot, especially when taken to Holicautal extremes (sp?)



Yahwey was jealous, but clearly thought there were other, inferior gods than himself,

along the long road to monotheism.



So this really smart God/dess couldn't figure out anyway to create us creatures

except evolution, which is ugly and messy and haphazard, and painful and not efficient

or merciful or well designed either? And which can operate without any "Godlike"

intervention at all, seemingly? Very strange.



What do you miss about the Catholic Church? I only miss having people who care

about arguing about this stuff (most haven't the faintest idea what I am talking about).



I also miss Gregorian chant, which seems to hang on by virture of Enya, tho abandoned

by the Church. And I must the lovely churches.



So the present day church doesn't have anything I liked; the churches look like gas

stations the music is horrible, and I don't think they teach theology any more. Meanwhile

the stuff I hated hands on and grows. Guilt, guilt a thousand times guilt, a demeaned role for women, no

birth control allowed, and oh, yes, hell. Not the amusing hell, the 7th or 8th Circle of

Real Estate hell, but eternal hell. (The kinder nuns used to say, yes, hell existed, but

maybe nobody was there.) Frankly, even for Hitler, wouldn't experiencing every pain he inflicted

twice be sufficient?
 
<blockquote>Maybe some of us will read along and we can discuss here. </blockquote>
Good idea. I could use some insight as well. Although Liz is gonna have to dummy-it-down for me - she's over my head :p Although I'm sure she could teach me a lot.
 
[quote author="CalGal" date=1213778052]<blockquote>Maybe some of us will read along and we can discuss here. </blockquote>
Good idea. I could use some insight as well. Although Liz is gonna have to dummy-it-down for me - she's over my head :p Although I'm sure she could teach me a lot.</blockquote>


Mine too! I read her post and thought that it had more background than I do, and based on far more reading than I've done.



No_Vas - Without getting too personal in a public forum, have you considered regular meditation of any kind? I suspect that that is what the Catholics will recommend, but they don't corner the market on it.
 
I'm told that Catholicism had a tradition of meditation, but it was

long gone by the time I went to Catholic school. Try the Buddhists.

Actually, the best meditation exercises I had was at a ladies' gym

at the yoga class, which I really ought to start again.



Sorry. I went to Catholic grade school (with nuns), Catholic high school

and Catholic College. With 4 years of theology class in college. I thought

you all were bored, and your eyes were rolling up in your head.



I stopped believing it, but I always liked learning about it.



Ok, let's start with the biggest of the biggies: the problem of

evil. If God exists, and he/she is good, why is there evil? And

what is evil?



Like the turtle rock, rock, there are some who say (sorry, I forget

who) that good and evil are a delusion of limited perspective.



Is evil a positive force (as in demons or something like that?

Or just the absence of good? Both strains are taught in the Catholic

church. After a day at work witnessing human evil, I start to be

convinced by the first one. On Tuesday, Thursdays and Sundays,

I just think it is the absence of good. On Saturdays I think it is all

nonsense.



(To relate the evil to real estate, a guy who I thought was a good

guy, is proposing to heloc his property and walk. He may not be

able to. Is this any different than knocking over a 7-11? Except

that no violence and way more money is involved?)



This is not simply walking away. He put 30% down and is now

underwater. He is bitter. His tenants are not paying and the sheriff

is taking a long time to evict. He was nearly in tears the other day.
 
[quote author="lawyerliz" date=1213818283]



Ok, let's start with the biggest of the biggies: the problem of

evil. If God exists, and he/she is good, why is there evil? And

what is evil?



Like the turtle rock, rock, there are some who say (sorry, I forget

who) that good and evil are a delusion of limited perspective.</blockquote>


I have moved past the issue of "why is there evil" and moved on to "how can I better help people in need who are trying to help themselves?"
 
Skek - yeah, that can answer the question of Man's Evil. Now, how do we answer the question of Nature's Evil? (I capitalized those because people may disagree on what exactly is Evil or not.) By Nature's Evil, I mean things like floods, hurricanes, droughts, etc. I have read up on this a little because it bothers me greatly. I have not found an answer that satisfied me. :down:
 
Q. Why is there evil in the world?



A.1: Because when Zeus gave Pandora a <em>pithos</em> and told her not to open it, she did.

<img src="http://www.artmagick.com/images/content/rossetti/med/rossetti56.jpg" alt="" />



A.2: Because when God told Adam & Eve not to eat the fruit from Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, Eve didn't listen.

<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Tree_of_Knowledge.jpg" alt="" />



A.3: Because men won't take responsibility for their own actions, thus they blame women for everything from the Fall of Troy to their own "predestined" fates.

<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Nornorna_spinner_?dets_tr?dar_vid_Yggdrasil.jpg" alt="" />
 
Oh, my what have I got myself into?



No vas, really good attitude.



Skek. This is the standard Judeo-Christian-Muslim take.



Please guys don't take any of this personally. And remember I was

over-Catholic-ed in my youth, and it never goes away.



Skek, and others.



Remember that between the Hundus, and the animists in africa, and Japan,

and the Buddhists (most varieties find that gods are irrelevant

to finding enlightenment), and others I am not thinking of, the gods are not all

powerful. This is a big fraction of mankind, and maybe even a majority.

For them this question does not even come up.



As Tim points out you have human evil, and then you have the action of natural

forces.



As to human good and evil, I would guess that most religions and ethical systems

pretty much agree as to what actions are good and evil. To avoid subtilty, most

would agree, say that murder, rape and theft are wrong and that helping your

family and the poor are good.



So why don't we do the good stuff and avoid the bad stuff? Since mostly

the good stuff seems also to be in our own best interests too?

I have my ideas on this,

but you guys thank about it and see what you come up with.



This is far more important than it used to be, since we now have nuclear

weapons. So, it is crucial that we understand the nature of evil, so we

can avoid the worst evil of all.



As to natural forces that cause great pain, and most would call evil, let's ignore the

ones that result from human stupidity, such as pollution causing lung problems,

or cutting forests too much causing erosion. Let's take earthquakes, meteor

strikes, floods caused by too much water (as in the midwest). Some of the Judeo-Christian-

Muslim persuasion would say that this is the indifferent working out of natural forces.

Some think that God can direct these forces, and in fact does so to help some

and hurt others. What do you think?



(Note it drives me absolutely crazy when some lucky person says God helped

him, I always think that this means that the person is implying that God did not

help the ones that didn't make it. Yeah, yeah, I know, you'll say that God was

merely bringing them home early. And this is good. Sorry, it can't be good and

bad at the same time.)



Here, no matter what anybody thinks they all act like they think the gods can

save them when the water is rushing at them. Ancient religions felt often that

offering sacrifices would withhold the god's fury, or get the god/desses to get

you something you wanted. Food, fertility, destruction of enemies, or a football

victory. "Give us this day our daily bread".
 
I too, really miss the awe and reverence I would feel attending a High Mass (in Latin), with the incense flowing, the clergy in full garb and the choir sweetly singing Sanctus Angelicus. It truly was an almost mystical experience for me as a child and teenager. It was when the Mass became dumbed down that I became cynical, lost interest and respect, stopped practicing Catholicism and began studying other religions. My favorite college Phil. class was Comparative World Religions.



I must add though, I honestly believe that my Catholic education (grammar & high school) enabled me to think for myself and find a philosophy/way of life that works for me. I know this sounds counter intuitive, because isn't it the way of an organized religion to get members and keep them? This certainly seems the case with most Christianity/Islam/Judaism. Shouldn't it be the role of any educator, be it clergy, teacher, parent, to REALLY educate? Not to stuff dogma down their throats and blindly accept the crap!



To paraphrase a quote from Illusions: the Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah by Richard Bach..."this, is what I know to be true...but then again, I could be wrong."

I love that line, most Christians hate it.
 
(This ought to give y'all the giggles since none of my responses are based on any kind of book learnin', but my own thoughts / opinions)



<blockquote> If God exists, and he/she is good, why is there evil? And

what is evil?</blockquote>


First, the assumption that God is good. How do we know? We certainly like to think so, and characterize God that way ('cause having an omnipresent and omnipotent being who is bad would be miserable), but what if God is neutral. An observer. He/she put the sand and the ants in the tank, is sitting back watching, and (in best Spock voice) saying "Fascinating." Why is their evil? 'Cause God's PR team suggested it. ;-) Seriously, though, evil is the balance. You couldn't recognize good without evil. Someone else above (Skek?) said it was related to free will. I pretty much concur with that and agree that evil would only be limited to sentient beings who are capable of making a choice. Evil arises from the ability to act on a choice. What is evil? That's a good question, and among individuals, relative. (There are things that Focus on the Family would characterize as evil and I, and a number of other people would not, for example) As a society we have defined things that are "bad" (see, Deerings Annoted Codes). Perhaps "evil" is defined by society as any act that would qualify someone for the death penalty (in a society that offers that as an option).





<blockquote>Like the turtle rock, rock, there are some who say (sorry, I forget

who) that good and evil are a delusion of limited perspective.</blockquote>


To say that something can only be good or evil is indeed a limited perspective. To leave out neutrality or shades of gray leaves out a lot of behavior.



<blockquote>Is evil a positive force (as in demons or something like that?

Or just the absence of good? </blockquote>


I definitely think it is its own force and requires malice to some degree. The absence of good could be neutrality.
 
[quote author="EvaLSeraphim" date=1213697747]



So, to start things off (and sorry for the Protestant bent), what's the point of trying to convert people if life is a matter of either predestination or free will?</blockquote>


Eva, the point of trying to convert People is to validate one's own beliefs, let's face it, at some stage one has to cross the fine line between cult and religion and to do so one needs to convert a lot of People.



All of the worlds' great religions started as cults with a charismatic leader and a few dedicated, fanatical followers.....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top