ventouxbob_IHB
New member
ford stock 2 bucks. a good buy??
Straw Poll regarding gas milage. and possible Oil consumption Ideas
- Thread starter ventouxbob_IHB
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Just like WaMu.
They are toast. So is GM.
We sold 18 million cars last year in the US, this year we'll do 13 millon or so, and next year probablly 10 million.
You could write a thesis on what is wrong with Detroit. One or two of these guys aren't going to make it.
Someone did one better than a thesis, "Who Killed the Electric Car".
No vas you may be right. did you read the article i posted about suvs well its really increadable ford and gm were so effing profitable 1996-2004. they jumped the shark BIG TIME.
They mad a killing selling those glorified pick ups (explorer,excusion,expodition.trailblazedrs etc..) they are very cheap to make.
detroit is lazy and retarded. i dont fell sorry for them much. just like you pointed out earlyer they have so many cool cars in euroe but they dont make them here.
The japanese open factorys all over the usa while ford and gm close factorys and open them in mexico etc fuck detroit.
The EV1? That was a horrible car! You obviously never drove one.
This is not a product problem as much as it's an accounting problem. The UAW has turned the Big Three into pension and healthcare programs that are subsidsed by auto production. The UAW straps Ford, GM, and Chrysler with about $2000 a car in extra HR related costs that nobody else in the US who builds cars (that's Nissan, Toyota, Honda, BMW, and everybody else in the industry) has to pay.
I have friends who work at GM and at Ford, with MS and/or PHDs in Mechanical Engeneering. They have spent 10-15 years of thier lives (plus a small fortune in tuition) to get these degrees. They cap out at about $50K. Untill the last UAW contract, a new hire who was sweeping the floor at a UAW plant made $60K - to start!
The Japanese factories aren't subject to the UAW. The US companies only exit to the cost constraints of a UAW factory is to close the US plants and move them to Mexico - escaping the death grasp of the UAW.
I am not anti union. I have never crossed a strike line - not once. The UAW negoiated a deal that was TOO GOOD for it's members, and ultimately crushing to the big three. The question becomes "Were we better with the deal that was too good, or are we better now that the company is busto and we have NO DEAL and no jobs?"
Suffice to say, the industry has been on a path of mutual destruction since the UAW contract of 1990.
Vas, I pop into the see the Kids at a Scion forum now and again and none are enthralled by the Gas mileage they're getting..mine seems pretty typical, Scion quote 22-28 mpg.
On the other Paw, I love my xB, it does everything I want it to do and the only problem I've had over 16 months is a Screw in a Tire last week, $115 later everything is fine again...I can't blame the Car (is it a Car or SUV)? for that...
How does your wife like Hers?
gasoline you have a tank you can pierce with a screwdriver... what happens in a crash ? gas flows out and sits on the ground ready to be ignited... booooommm
cng the tanks go thru rigirous testing, pressure test and the walls of the tanks are thick. you can't punture it easy, if you would the gas would - yes - go up and be gone... nothing on the ground waiting to be lit up by a spark... as far as i know there has not yet been one accident with an cng car where the tank would have caused any problems... cng is way safer than gasoline and cleaner too
honda civic gx +40mpgh on freeway, around 30 to 35 in city, seats 4 easy but little trunk space and max range is 250miles before you need a cng station, so don't drive thru deathvalley unless you like to walk...
Here's a good start.
Then this.
"So critical is Mary Walton of Ford's management practices that, upon seeing an early draft of Car, Ford revoked Walton's access to its top executives"
The EV1 smoked a 1996 300ZX Twin Turbo off the line. It couldn't have been that bad. I know it was short on looks. I was living on the east coast at the time so no, I never had the opportunity to drive one.
When I first read about it, I thought it was stupid and over priced for what it was offering. 75 miles to a charge? Being a young 20 something, this made no sense because I could easily put 75 miles on a one way trip and would be pushing my ride home.
I think if GM didn't cannibalize their own product, battery and electric motor technology would have made leaps and bounds by now.
So is Tesla, Wrightspeed, Fisker, GM and company wasting their time and money with electric vehicles? I'm not really clear on why you feel that way about EV's but I have to disagree both of your statements. The technology may not have been abandoned but GM did kill off the EV1 to the point where they didn't want any evidence that an EV ever existed.
The Chevy Volt concept was great but the actual production car looks like a pile.
Electric golf carts have a place too - as toys. Plug in electric cars are toys. They will likely remain so for the foreseeable future.
For the last time, the technology WAS NOT ABANDONED.
One word - liability. The cars were worn out. GM didn't want to carry service parts forever. There is a reason all the EV1's were on a lease.
GM scrubbed the EV1 because they couldn't make any money on it. The Volt will follow the same fate. It's a neat experiment, that is doomed to failure.
The IC/electric hybrid is where it's at. That is the future.
no_vaseline_IHB
New member
ventouxbob said:
Just like WaMu.
They are toast. So is GM.
We sold 18 million cars last year in the US, this year we'll do 13 millon or so, and next year probablly 10 million.
You could write a thesis on what is wrong with Detroit. One or two of these guys aren't going to make it.
serious weapon_IHB
New member
no_vaseline said:
Someone did one better than a thesis, "Who Killed the Electric Car".
ventouxbob_IHB
New member
no_vaseline said:
No vas you may be right. did you read the article i posted about suvs well its really increadable ford and gm were so effing profitable 1996-2004. they jumped the shark BIG TIME.
They mad a killing selling those glorified pick ups (explorer,excusion,expodition.trailblazedrs etc..) they are very cheap to make.
detroit is lazy and retarded. i dont fell sorry for them much. just like you pointed out earlyer they have so many cool cars in euroe but they dont make them here.
The japanese open factorys all over the usa while ford and gm close factorys and open them in mexico etc fuck detroit.
no_vaseline_IHB
New member
GOTTI said:
The EV1? That was a horrible car! You obviously never drove one.
This is not a product problem as much as it's an accounting problem. The UAW has turned the Big Three into pension and healthcare programs that are subsidsed by auto production. The UAW straps Ford, GM, and Chrysler with about $2000 a car in extra HR related costs that nobody else in the US who builds cars (that's Nissan, Toyota, Honda, BMW, and everybody else in the industry) has to pay.
I have friends who work at GM and at Ford, with MS and/or PHDs in Mechanical Engeneering. They have spent 10-15 years of thier lives (plus a small fortune in tuition) to get these degrees. They cap out at about $50K. Untill the last UAW contract, a new hire who was sweeping the floor at a UAW plant made $60K - to start!
ventouxbob said:
The Japanese factories aren't subject to the UAW. The US companies only exit to the cost constraints of a UAW factory is to close the US plants and move them to Mexico - escaping the death grasp of the UAW.
I am not anti union. I have never crossed a strike line - not once. The UAW negoiated a deal that was TOO GOOD for it's members, and ultimately crushing to the big three. The question becomes "Were we better with the deal that was too good, or are we better now that the company is busto and we have NO DEAL and no jobs?"
Suffice to say, the industry has been on a path of mutual destruction since the UAW contract of 1990.
No_Such_Reality_IHB
New member
In 1991, I worked for EDS supporting GM and it's suppliers. On a site visit to one of the stamping plants, I noticed all the stamping workers sitting around at picnic tables around the gigantic automated stamping machines. When I asked why, the answer I got was that the UAW contract prevented the workers from losing their jobs to automation. In the end, it was better and cheaper for GM to pay the workers to sit while automating their line than the keep the workers working on the stamping line.
On the stmaping line, only two people were busy, the crane operator loadng the metal rolls and the other operator moving the completed part loads to shipping.
The mindset was even scarier of the UAW members, we OWE them jobs with good pay and if they don't get it, they feel justified in wrecking everything.
It's been a long time, but I doubt the mindset is gone.
On the stmaping line, only two people were busy, the crane operator loadng the metal rolls and the other operator moving the completed part loads to shipping.
The mindset was even scarier of the UAW members, we OWE them jobs with good pay and if they don't get it, they feel justified in wrecking everything.
It's been a long time, but I doubt the mindset is gone.
PeterUK_IHB
New member
I'm driving a 2008 Scion xB, according to the Gas consumption computer I'm averaging around 22 mpg, that's for a normal week, my commute is 1.8 miles and I have to endure 5 Traffic Lights which kills Gas mileage...
One morning at 3am I had to take my wife to the Airport, I set the cruise control at 70mph both ways, this gave me 31 mpg, the highest ever...and 70 mph is under 3000 rpm.
If anyone is thinking of buying a new xB don't expect fantastic Gas mileage....
One morning at 3am I had to take my wife to the Airport, I set the cruise control at 70mph both ways, this gave me 31 mpg, the highest ever...and 70 mph is under 3000 rpm.
If anyone is thinking of buying a new xB don't expect fantastic Gas mileage....
PeterUK_IHB
New member
By the way, a couple of months ago, my Wife went to a Mini Dealership, we were kinda interested in trading Her 06 Beetle conv in for one...
Every Mini on the Lot was maxed out with all the extra's which meant the prices ranged from $31-42K the Salesman's attitude was " Buy now, they're selling like Hotcakes, we just can't get them"
Over the last 2 weeks I have had 5 phone messages and 10 e-mails from this Dealership telling me they can get Mini's in any configuration, please come back and see us...
Also, a Friend bought a Camry Hybrid 3 months ago, at that time they had a waiting list for Prius, he took His Car in for a service about 3 weeks ago and they had 12 unsold Prius...
So even the very desirable little Cars aren't selling either...
Every Mini on the Lot was maxed out with all the extra's which meant the prices ranged from $31-42K the Salesman's attitude was " Buy now, they're selling like Hotcakes, we just can't get them"
Over the last 2 weeks I have had 5 phone messages and 10 e-mails from this Dealership telling me they can get Mini's in any configuration, please come back and see us...
Also, a Friend bought a Camry Hybrid 3 months ago, at that time they had a waiting list for Prius, he took His Car in for a service about 3 weeks ago and they had 12 unsold Prius...
So even the very desirable little Cars aren't selling either...
no_vaseline_IHB
New member
Petah:
Thats about the milage my wife gets on her '08 XB.
The first vehicles to stop selling were the luxobarge SUV's. It's now slid down where nothing is selling with any volume - big, little, expensive, cheap.
Thats about the milage my wife gets on her '08 XB.
The first vehicles to stop selling were the luxobarge SUV's. It's now slid down where nothing is selling with any volume - big, little, expensive, cheap.
PeterUK_IHB
New member
no_vaseline said:
Vas, I pop into the see the Kids at a Scion forum now and again and none are enthralled by the Gas mileage they're getting..mine seems pretty typical, Scion quote 22-28 mpg.
On the other Paw, I love my xB, it does everything I want it to do and the only problem I've had over 16 months is a Screw in a Tire last week, $115 later everything is fine again...I can't blame the Car (is it a Car or SUV)? for that...
How does your wife like Hers?
no_vaseline_IHB
New member
She likes it fine. Preferablly clean. Ha ha. We've had it since last May. It is no longer bone stock.
flmgrip_IHB
New member
GOTTI said:
gasoline you have a tank you can pierce with a screwdriver... what happens in a crash ? gas flows out and sits on the ground ready to be ignited... booooommm
cng the tanks go thru rigirous testing, pressure test and the walls of the tanks are thick. you can't punture it easy, if you would the gas would - yes - go up and be gone... nothing on the ground waiting to be lit up by a spark... as far as i know there has not yet been one accident with an cng car where the tank would have caused any problems... cng is way safer than gasoline and cleaner too
honda civic gx +40mpgh on freeway, around 30 to 35 in city, seats 4 easy but little trunk space and max range is 250miles before you need a cng station, so don't drive thru deathvalley unless you like to walk...
effenheimer_IHB
New member
Here's a good start.
Then this.
"So critical is Mary Walton of Ford's management practices that, upon seeing an early draft of Car, Ford revoked Walton's access to its top executives"
flmgrip_IHB
New member
oh and my next car will be an aptera... 150mpg and charge up at home with my solar
serious weapon_IHB
New member
no_vaseline said:
The EV1 smoked a 1996 300ZX Twin Turbo off the line. It couldn't have been that bad. I know it was short on looks. I was living on the east coast at the time so no, I never had the opportunity to drive one.
When I first read about it, I thought it was stupid and over priced for what it was offering. 75 miles to a charge? Being a young 20 something, this made no sense because I could easily put 75 miles on a one way trip and would be pushing my ride home.
I think if GM didn't cannibalize their own product, battery and electric motor technology would have made leaps and bounds by now.
no_vaseline_IHB
New member
All electrics smoke IC's off the line. All of them. Electric motors make a huge ammount of torque right when you excite them.
An electric forklift will destroy an IC unit in acceleration, ability to cycle pallets, forklift rodeo, whatever. Right up to the point where you need to climb a grade, then the IC destroys the electric unit, or if you need to refuel in the middle of a shift.
The EV1 drove poorly, had horrible fit and finish, inadaquate range, and would lose half it's operating range on a 75 degree day because you'd need to turn the AC on. It was a 10 billion R&D hole in the ground that GM will never recoup.
BTW, all the R&D in the EV1 is right here:
http://www.burkehandling.com/electr.htm
GM could of got a real discount if it had just come out and bought Clark out of bankrupcy and saved themselves the trouble of reinventing the wheel.
An electric forklift will destroy an IC unit in acceleration, ability to cycle pallets, forklift rodeo, whatever. Right up to the point where you need to climb a grade, then the IC destroys the electric unit, or if you need to refuel in the middle of a shift.
The EV1 drove poorly, had horrible fit and finish, inadaquate range, and would lose half it's operating range on a 75 degree day because you'd need to turn the AC on. It was a 10 billion R&D hole in the ground that GM will never recoup.
BTW, all the R&D in the EV1 is right here:
http://www.burkehandling.com/electr.htm
GM could of got a real discount if it had just come out and bought Clark out of bankrupcy and saved themselves the trouble of reinventing the wheel.
serious weapon_IHB
New member
100% torque all the time. I don't see how an incline would diminish performance, I know it would use more energy. But I'll agree that recharging vs. refueling goes to IC.
I'm not going arguing if the EV1 was poorly built or well made. No offense to anyone out there, but's it's GM so I would never expect it to be refined.
My point is, the concept and technology shouldn't have been abandoned.
I'm not going arguing if the EV1 was poorly built or well made. No offense to anyone out there, but's it's GM so I would never expect it to be refined.
My point is, the concept and technology shouldn't have been abandoned.
no_vaseline_IHB
New member
The motor controler and lead acid batteries in those lift trucks are identical to what was in the EV1.
Do you know what the EV1 stands for?
It's the PN for the flashable GE motor controller that was introduced on the Clark TMG series and then a couple of months later the EV1 car from GM.
And that's my point - the technology wasn't abandoned. It is still in use I'm sure. It just won't work for transportation.
Do you know what the EV1 stands for?
It's the PN for the flashable GE motor controller that was introduced on the Clark TMG series and then a couple of months later the EV1 car from GM.
And that's my point - the technology wasn't abandoned. It is still in use I'm sure. It just won't work for transportation.
serious weapon_IHB
New member
no_vaseline said:
So is Tesla, Wrightspeed, Fisker, GM and company wasting their time and money with electric vehicles? I'm not really clear on why you feel that way about EV's but I have to disagree both of your statements. The technology may not have been abandoned but GM did kill off the EV1 to the point where they didn't want any evidence that an EV ever existed.
The Chevy Volt concept was great but the actual production car looks like a pile.
no_vaseline_IHB
New member
GOTTI said:
Electric golf carts have a place too - as toys. Plug in electric cars are toys. They will likely remain so for the foreseeable future.
For the last time, the technology WAS NOT ABANDONED.
One word - liability. The cars were worn out. GM didn't want to carry service parts forever. There is a reason all the EV1's were on a lease.
GM scrubbed the EV1 because they couldn't make any money on it. The Volt will follow the same fate. It's a neat experiment, that is doomed to failure.
The IC/electric hybrid is where it's at. That is the future.