Trooper_IHB
New member
Thank you bk. Sorry I missed you the other night.
Straw poll on gay marriage
- Thread starter Trooper_IHB
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Trooper comon nothing has changed between us. The reason I haven't been on here as much for a long time is because when the RE market finally did start tanking it was a vindication for me (as the truth came out contrary to many permabulls), plus other things I've been focusing on. I'm hoping you don't take anything personally I said however, I am concerned about the ramifications as I mentioned in my post. Regardless, I think we can still agree to disagree on this and be OK I hope!
Wow! Is there a roll call list out there posted. How did you find out that I was there? It was a last minute decision. Hope you will be able to attend the next one.
I can't wait for your 3000th post now. I am excited to hear the story as well as to fill some of the blanks. I'm just glad to hear that you feel comfortable to post it here on IHB. It shows what a diverse, close, caring, and open minded community IHB has become to have someone as cool as Troop share her experience for all of us. It is like having the privilege of someone like Bk share his knowledge of housing, and you share your knowledge what it is like to be gay. I am sure it will open the minds of many, including my own, and I am sure everyone will enjoy it regardless of how they feel on the subject. I know that you will certainly trump the amount of thank yous I got on my 2000th post.
At least now I don't feel completely clueless, on when I first started to get to know you in thinking you were a guy, now that I know even Bk got trumped. Troop and I go way back when it comes to the blog, and it is great to be her friend, and see us both grow along with it. And it is great where all of us have come to.
BTW, I am no on 8 not just because I love and support Troop, but this bill also means a lot to my family. My family who has never been anything but "normal" as families can get, and how this law really won't change much in my families' lives, but change the way some in our family feel about society. I hope all of you can step back and truly see what this law will mean, and think for yourself and not let someone else influence your decision on this. I know I have, and that is why I can support voting no on 8 with passion.
Now Troop, get to posting. Don't make me ask questions that you will say "Damn you G, you know I will have to step in on that one". Because, you know I will do it.
cayci: I am curious. Having had a pastor preside over my ceremony too -- what kind of vows did your uncle have you give? I.e. did you recite traditional vows or you wrote your own, or he altered them to suit what you wanted to say? It sort of sounds like the pastor made no mention of spiritual ties which is unusual but maybe you are saying he married as you as your uncle in a secular ceremony and not as a pastor? What faith is he? This is very interesting. Thanks in advance.
We used our own vows. I asked my uncle to marry us to make my father happy (it was his brother). He was paying for it, afterall. My uncle is an evangelical Christian pastor,and for a time I went to his church. He did make a mention of "Jesus" towards the end, and I was very upset about that. I made my adult beliefs known to him in pre-marital counselling, but he used my wedding to evangelize anyway. I mustered up all of my acting training not to make faces during the ceremony when he said that. I knew the groomsmen (as well as tons of cameras) were watching my face and I didn't need all of them cracking up in the middle of things and making a scene.
Edited to add: SoCal78, I liked your story and thought it was very sweet. It's nice to hear that you stuck to your plans and that 8/10 years later that plan is still working out for you.
And now back to our regularly scheduled discussion on marriage for all Americans.
irvinesinglemom_IHB
New member
Sorry to hijack, Trooper, but I just have to put my $0.02 into the ring and remind people that when my son is taught in school that a family is a mommy and a daddy and kid(s), it not only is hurtful to my gay friends, it's also hurtful to me as a single parent. Think about it for a minute. You are in my shoes, a single mom, and your son comes home from school one day and says that he has a family at his daddy's house (his daddy, his stepmom, and his stepsister) but at my house, we're not a family because it's just the two of us.
I made sure to set him straight on that but it still bugs me.
Trooper, I am very much looking forward to your 3000th post. I'll have the tissue box at the ready 'cause I'm sure I'll cry my eyes out!
I made sure to set him straight on that but it still bugs me.
Trooper, I am very much looking forward to your 3000th post. I'll have the tissue box at the ready 'cause I'm sure I'll cry my eyes out!
Trooper_IHB
New member
Thanks ISM. I'm getting a little teary already just thinking about putting it in print.
You all wonder about why I have so much time to post on IHB.....this story will fill in a lot of the blanks.
You all wonder about why I have so much time to post on IHB.....this story will fill in a lot of the blanks.
mediaboyz_IHB
New member
Trooper said:
Trooper comon nothing has changed between us. The reason I haven't been on here as much for a long time is because when the RE market finally did start tanking it was a vindication for me (as the truth came out contrary to many permabulls), plus other things I've been focusing on. I'm hoping you don't take anything personally I said however, I am concerned about the ramifications as I mentioned in my post. Regardless, I think we can still agree to disagree on this and be OK I hope!
bkshopr_IHB
New member
Trooper said:
Wow! Is there a roll call list out there posted. How did you find out that I was there? It was a last minute decision. Hope you will be able to attend the next one.
centralcoastobserver_IHB
New member
This thread is really interesting.... love to see such civil discussion. (Or at least mostly civil!) I'm perfectly content to have "gay marriage" legal. I'm straight and can't see any threat in gay marriage. However, I'm more in the "don't need a peice of paper" camp. I've been married, and I'm now committed without marriage. It's really all about the quality of the relationship, not what it's called. Look for the quality relationship first, Troop!
But that's easy for me to say, because should my partner and I run into some obstruction that could be removed by marriage, we have that option, simply because we are of opposite sex. It seems unfair that some committed couples can't remove the obstruction that easily.
But that's easy for me to say, because should my partner and I run into some obstruction that could be removed by marriage, we have that option, simply because we are of opposite sex. It seems unfair that some committed couples can't remove the obstruction that easily.
kcmkane_IHB
New member
First I see my first "Yes on Prop 8" bumper sticker this morning, and NOW I get a call at 8:30pm tonight from someone claiming to be a "fellow Irvine resident" urging me vote yes on Prop 8. First he asked if I understood what a yes or no vote meant, and when I confirmed I did he asked which way I was inclined to vote. When I said "no" he politely asked if he could give me his views, so I heard him out. Keep your friends close, your enemies closer. He launched into the following predictable points:
- Wanting to teach his Kindergartner about the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman, and not have an 'agenda' forced on them in public school
- Activist judges promoting 'scary' agendas (I guess this is an 'agenda')
- 61% of Californians voted against gay marriage last time around
- He made clear that Prop 8 would not eliminate civil unions, if that is what I was concerned about.
After he finished I asked him "but how does who anyone else marries impact MY marriage?". He ignored the question and gave me the yes on 8 website address. I thanked him for his passion on the issue, but told him it was now the 21st century, and he is on the wrong side of the issues --- and that my vote was still no.
It sure seems like the YES on 8 drive is really getting ramped up....
- Wanting to teach his Kindergartner about the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman, and not have an 'agenda' forced on them in public school
- Activist judges promoting 'scary' agendas (I guess this is an 'agenda')
- 61% of Californians voted against gay marriage last time around
- He made clear that Prop 8 would not eliminate civil unions, if that is what I was concerned about.
After he finished I asked him "but how does who anyone else marries impact MY marriage?". He ignored the question and gave me the yes on 8 website address. I thanked him for his passion on the issue, but told him it was now the 21st century, and he is on the wrong side of the issues --- and that my vote was still no.
It sure seems like the YES on 8 drive is really getting ramped up....
caycifish_IHB
New member
graphrix_IHB
New member
Trooper said:
I can't wait for your 3000th post now. I am excited to hear the story as well as to fill some of the blanks. I'm just glad to hear that you feel comfortable to post it here on IHB. It shows what a diverse, close, caring, and open minded community IHB has become to have someone as cool as Troop share her experience for all of us. It is like having the privilege of someone like Bk share his knowledge of housing, and you share your knowledge what it is like to be gay. I am sure it will open the minds of many, including my own, and I am sure everyone will enjoy it regardless of how they feel on the subject. I know that you will certainly trump the amount of thank yous I got on my 2000th post.
At least now I don't feel completely clueless, on when I first started to get to know you in thinking you were a guy, now that I know even Bk got trumped. Troop and I go way back when it comes to the blog, and it is great to be her friend, and see us both grow along with it. And it is great where all of us have come to.
BTW, I am no on 8 not just because I love and support Troop, but this bill also means a lot to my family. My family who has never been anything but "normal" as families can get, and how this law really won't change much in my families' lives, but change the way some in our family feel about society. I hope all of you can step back and truly see what this law will mean, and think for yourself and not let someone else influence your decision on this. I know I have, and that is why I can support voting no on 8 with passion.
Now Troop, get to posting. Don't make me ask questions that you will say "Damn you G, you know I will have to step in on that one". Because, you know I will do it.
caycifish_IHB
New member
A few comments:
My marriage was (I'm divorced for those that don't know) a legally binding contract between myself, my husband, and the state of California. Religion had nothing to do with it.
My marriage licence was a service provided me by the state. My Uncle, a pastor, married us. He provided a "certificate" of marriage that looked very official. Apparently once upon a time a document from the officiant/church was all you needed to prove you were married to all the various entities you have to deal with when you change your name and/or merge assets. No longer. I know. I tried. You MUST have the marriage certificate from the government. You MUST send in your paperwork to the county courthouse to have your marriage recognized by all other entities. I had to suck it up and go down to Santa Ana and stand in line and pay my $13 to be handed a piece of paper from the government that proved I was married.
For all practical purposes nothing but my last name changed once the contract took effect. The living arrangements and commitment were already in place prior to the ceremony. People constantly asked "so, how's married life?" and I responded "exactly the same." Why did I want to actually get married?
Legitimacy.
In our society, being married makes your relationship legitimate. It just does. You can talk for hours about what "could be". I'm telling you my experience with what "is". Coworkers, family, perfect strangers...I noticed a difference when my SO went from "boyfriend" or even "fiance" to "husband". Sometimes a subtle difference, sometimes blatant. But there WAS a difference.
Random comment: I got married outdoors because it's really hard to find a pretty indoor place to get married that will look good in pictures that isn't a church. Churches really have that market cornered. I know, I know. Places exist. It was just easier to focus my efforts on parks and golf courses than try to find the cost-effective needle in a haystack.
Enough about my experiences. Now a question that I don't feel like googling:
What are you called if you have a civil union? Are the terms "wife" or "husband" or "spouse" still used? What is the term for what state your relationship is in? You aren't "married"...so are you "joined"? "Unioned"? Do all the forms with a "married" box need to be updated?
My marriage was (I'm divorced for those that don't know) a legally binding contract between myself, my husband, and the state of California. Religion had nothing to do with it.
My marriage licence was a service provided me by the state. My Uncle, a pastor, married us. He provided a "certificate" of marriage that looked very official. Apparently once upon a time a document from the officiant/church was all you needed to prove you were married to all the various entities you have to deal with when you change your name and/or merge assets. No longer. I know. I tried. You MUST have the marriage certificate from the government. You MUST send in your paperwork to the county courthouse to have your marriage recognized by all other entities. I had to suck it up and go down to Santa Ana and stand in line and pay my $13 to be handed a piece of paper from the government that proved I was married.
For all practical purposes nothing but my last name changed once the contract took effect. The living arrangements and commitment were already in place prior to the ceremony. People constantly asked "so, how's married life?" and I responded "exactly the same." Why did I want to actually get married?
Legitimacy.
In our society, being married makes your relationship legitimate. It just does. You can talk for hours about what "could be". I'm telling you my experience with what "is". Coworkers, family, perfect strangers...I noticed a difference when my SO went from "boyfriend" or even "fiance" to "husband". Sometimes a subtle difference, sometimes blatant. But there WAS a difference.
Random comment: I got married outdoors because it's really hard to find a pretty indoor place to get married that will look good in pictures that isn't a church. Churches really have that market cornered. I know, I know. Places exist. It was just easier to focus my efforts on parks and golf courses than try to find the cost-effective needle in a haystack.
Enough about my experiences. Now a question that I don't feel like googling:
What are you called if you have a civil union? Are the terms "wife" or "husband" or "spouse" still used? What is the term for what state your relationship is in? You aren't "married"...so are you "joined"? "Unioned"? Do all the forms with a "married" box need to be updated?
profette_IHB
New member
SoCal78_IHB
New member
It is interesting reading everyone's experiences. I guess I will share the short Reader's Digest version of mine just for shits and giggles, because we are all so different on this board.
I have been married for over 8 years and together for 10. In my opinion, our spiritual bond has everything to do with it. A three-stranded rope is not easily broken. In the time I've been married I've had other friends with different views who were married and divorced (some, twice) within that same time period. When I got married, what changed? Everything. I saved myself for marriage. The commitment of a relationship I do not take lightly. Sharing a home, a life, finances, etc are serious steps that deserve commitment and loyalty to one another. To that extent I am refreshingly surprised to know that gays are interested in making those vows even though they do not have societal expectations to do so. I am very happy in my marriage and everyday am thankful for my spouse and our relationship which passed a lot of trying periods leading up to marriage and that transition you make. While it may seem odd or old-fashioned to some, to us it has made us hold each other in higher regard and more appreciative of one another. It allowed us to see every facet of each other and our personalities before we committed our lives to each other. I would not have done it any differently.
We have talked about the gays' view on marriage but now I'm curious - what is their view on divorce? For example I recently met an engaged woman. I congratulated her and asked if she was nervous. She said, "No. Because I can always get a divorce if it doesn't work out." So I gathered that to her marriage is not that much of a real commitment and can be easily revoked at any time. Do gays feel this way? I.e. if you're doing it mainly for tax purposes / financial / otherwise do you not feel a duty to push through hard times to stay together? Or do you? Just wondering.
Thanks for reading and for sharing. Cheers.
I have been married for over 8 years and together for 10. In my opinion, our spiritual bond has everything to do with it. A three-stranded rope is not easily broken. In the time I've been married I've had other friends with different views who were married and divorced (some, twice) within that same time period. When I got married, what changed? Everything. I saved myself for marriage. The commitment of a relationship I do not take lightly. Sharing a home, a life, finances, etc are serious steps that deserve commitment and loyalty to one another. To that extent I am refreshingly surprised to know that gays are interested in making those vows even though they do not have societal expectations to do so. I am very happy in my marriage and everyday am thankful for my spouse and our relationship which passed a lot of trying periods leading up to marriage and that transition you make. While it may seem odd or old-fashioned to some, to us it has made us hold each other in higher regard and more appreciative of one another. It allowed us to see every facet of each other and our personalities before we committed our lives to each other. I would not have done it any differently.
We have talked about the gays' view on marriage but now I'm curious - what is their view on divorce? For example I recently met an engaged woman. I congratulated her and asked if she was nervous. She said, "No. Because I can always get a divorce if it doesn't work out." So I gathered that to her marriage is not that much of a real commitment and can be easily revoked at any time. Do gays feel this way? I.e. if you're doing it mainly for tax purposes / financial / otherwise do you not feel a duty to push through hard times to stay together? Or do you? Just wondering.
Thanks for reading and for sharing. Cheers.
Trooper_IHB
New member
What are you called if you have a civil union? Are the terms “wife” or “husband” or “spouse” still used? What is the term for what state your relationship is in? You aren’t “married”...so are you “joined”? “Unioned”? Do all the forms with a “married” box need to be updated?
Hi Cayci,
I'll try and answer. In California, when you have a civil union.....you are called "Domestic Partners". When you participate in this legal agreement, you are not considered married and you don't get to check the "spouse" box. Some businesses and pension plans will recognize this union for benefits and pension purposes....but it varies. Of course, we can get married here for the time being....so I'm not sure what they've done with the check boxes.
I do know that even though gays have been able to marry in Massachusetts for 4 years now, they are not able to file "Married, filing jointly" on their Federal tax return. They are still considered "single" in the feds eyes. So, they can filed married on their state return, but not their fed return. Now if that isn't an accountant's nightmare, I don't know what is.
Let's not forget the Social Security benefits are fed....and as such, will not be passed to your spouse upon your death. In Cali, if two gays owned a house together and one died, the title would have to be redrawn to be in just the name of the surviving partner. This did not have to occur for straight married couples. The problem with that ? It triggered a re-assessment and property taxes skyrocketed. Even though they may have owned the house for 30 yrs together. Now, I do believe that has been fixed during the past year.... but I just thought I'd throw it out there as an example. And g-d forbid if they didn't have it drawn up legally....guaranteed the dead partners family would be coming after "their" share of the house.
Legitimacy is a perfect word. Thanks all.
Hi Cayci,
I'll try and answer. In California, when you have a civil union.....you are called "Domestic Partners". When you participate in this legal agreement, you are not considered married and you don't get to check the "spouse" box. Some businesses and pension plans will recognize this union for benefits and pension purposes....but it varies. Of course, we can get married here for the time being....so I'm not sure what they've done with the check boxes.
I do know that even though gays have been able to marry in Massachusetts for 4 years now, they are not able to file "Married, filing jointly" on their Federal tax return. They are still considered "single" in the feds eyes. So, they can filed married on their state return, but not their fed return. Now if that isn't an accountant's nightmare, I don't know what is.
Let's not forget the Social Security benefits are fed....and as such, will not be passed to your spouse upon your death. In Cali, if two gays owned a house together and one died, the title would have to be redrawn to be in just the name of the surviving partner. This did not have to occur for straight married couples. The problem with that ? It triggered a re-assessment and property taxes skyrocketed. Even though they may have owned the house for 30 yrs together. Now, I do believe that has been fixed during the past year.... but I just thought I'd throw it out there as an example. And g-d forbid if they didn't have it drawn up legally....guaranteed the dead partners family would be coming after "their" share of the house.
Legitimacy is a perfect word. Thanks all.
SoCal78_IHB
New member
caycifish said:
cayci: I am curious. Having had a pastor preside over my ceremony too -- what kind of vows did your uncle have you give? I.e. did you recite traditional vows or you wrote your own, or he altered them to suit what you wanted to say? It sort of sounds like the pastor made no mention of spiritual ties which is unusual but maybe you are saying he married as you as your uncle in a secular ceremony and not as a pastor? What faith is he? This is very interesting. Thanks in advance.
Trooper_IHB
New member
Regarding losing the house to the partner's family.....there was a great show on HBO a few years ago called "If These Walls Could Talk". In it is a segment about two woman who had been together since the 30's, and one died. The house had only be held in her name, so the survivor is being booted out by the callous family. She's about 75 years old, and is still not able to stop it. Here is a small clip of it, it's a drama and you might recognize the actress.
Watch the clip....you will see that she is taking down all the photos of her and her lover's life....because the other family is coming and she doesn't want them to know....so she hides everything. Also you see her setting up the day bed in the other room, so it doesn't look as if they shared a bed their entire lives. Walking down the street and slowly separating so it didn't look suspicious.....not being able to visit her in the hospital or get any word on her condition b/c she isn't "family", etc.
(embedded video no longer available)
Watch the clip....you will see that she is taking down all the photos of her and her lover's life....because the other family is coming and she doesn't want them to know....so she hides everything. Also you see her setting up the day bed in the other room, so it doesn't look as if they shared a bed their entire lives. Walking down the street and slowly separating so it didn't look suspicious.....not being able to visit her in the hospital or get any word on her condition b/c she isn't "family", etc.
(embedded video no longer available)
caycifish_IHB
New member
SoCal78 said:
We used our own vows. I asked my uncle to marry us to make my father happy (it was his brother). He was paying for it, afterall. My uncle is an evangelical Christian pastor,and for a time I went to his church. He did make a mention of "Jesus" towards the end, and I was very upset about that. I made my adult beliefs known to him in pre-marital counselling, but he used my wedding to evangelize anyway. I mustered up all of my acting training not to make faces during the ceremony when he said that. I knew the groomsmen (as well as tons of cameras) were watching my face and I didn't need all of them cracking up in the middle of things and making a scene.
Edited to add: SoCal78, I liked your story and thought it was very sweet. It's nice to hear that you stuck to your plans and that 8/10 years later that plan is still working out for you.
And now back to our regularly scheduled discussion on marriage for all Americans.
halfnote19_IHB
New member
Has the ability for gays to get married been put on hold since this prop is in the works?
Or can they still go to SF to do it?
Or can they still go to SF to do it?
Trooper_IHB
New member
Currently, gays and lesbians can be married anywhere in the State of California.
Regarding divorce: I think that in the interim, you won't see many gay divorces. We've wanted this for so long now, those that have been together for 10+ years already know they will most likely stay together for life....so they'll take the plunge. Personally, I believe that once I get married, I'll never divorce. There are so many variables though....cheating, etc. You can't control what your spouse does. So I suppose that makes us just like you....thinking it will last forever, but not always working out that way.
Regarding divorce: I think that in the interim, you won't see many gay divorces. We've wanted this for so long now, those that have been together for 10+ years already know they will most likely stay together for life....so they'll take the plunge. Personally, I believe that once I get married, I'll never divorce. There are so many variables though....cheating, etc. You can't control what your spouse does. So I suppose that makes us just like you....thinking it will last forever, but not always working out that way.
25w100k+_IHB
New member
Troop, do you think a good solution would be to do away with marriage (in the legal sense) and only have a 'civil union'? Level the playing field the other way. Then if people want to have a religious ceremony and call it marriage, well, thats up to each church to decide who and how and what hoops people have to jump through?
To me its just silly that people claim that the 'legal status' of marriage needs to be protected on religious grounds, when the legality of it has nothing to do with religion at all.
Hope I didn't offend, just curious your thoughts on the issue.
To me its just silly that people claim that the 'legal status' of marriage needs to be protected on religious grounds, when the legality of it has nothing to do with religion at all.
Hope I didn't offend, just curious your thoughts on the issue.