Stonegate Parks - your HOA dollars at work!

[akim997]

This is pretty ridiculous.  Now I know that an HOA of $100 per month (approx) isn't bad these days, but you'd still think that you'd get something in return for it.  Turns out you don't.  I'd love to take a look at the budget to see what it costs for maintaining the sidewalks. 

Well, we are moving into Stonegate and were thinking about throwing a b-day party for our little girl.  I reached out to PCM (professional community management) to get details on reserving the picnic area at the park in Stonegate.  Turns out the parks are part of the city of Irvine, and that I can't reserve anything (even as a resident).  In fact the lady was less than helpful and a bit rude.  In fact, they let me know I can't have more than 6 guests (duh!!!).  Funny, I just bbq'd at Groveland with extended family which included about 12 people.    So we are going to have a party anyways without a reservation, but it does mean no jumper in the grass and no taco truck guy.  We've been to countless parties in other communities where all these accomodations could be made.  So why am I paying $1300 per year?  for parks that I can't use?  And since the parks are "city of Irvine parks" doesnt that mean that they are fair game and I'll just be subsidizing the general public?    I didn't think about this before and personally think it kind of sucks...

 

[irvinehomeowner]

akim:

From what I read... you can still have parties at neighborhood parks... you can't reserve them but the parties need to be 50 or less:

Neighborhood Parks and Vistas
(see list below)

- Open space and some recreational amenities are provided in the various villages of Irvine.
- Usually do not have public facilities or staff present.
- Picnic areas cannot be reserved.  They are available on a first come first served basis for groups of 50 or less.
- Bounce houses are permitted at select parks with a permit.

http://www.ci.irvine.ca.us/cityhall/cs/commparks/nparks/default.asp

And as stated, you can also have a bouncehouse (Stonegate is on that list):

Bounce Houses are permitted at most community parks with a $30 Bounce House permit and a Picnic area reservation. Bounce Houses are also permitted at select non-reservable parks with just a $30 permit. Bounce House Vendors must provide the appropriate information to the City (business license and proof of liability insurance).  The list below are vendors who currently meet the minimum requirements.  Your vendor must be on this list.  If they are not, have them contact us to qualify at 949-724-6620. The public is not permitted to bring their personally owned equipment. Laser Tag is not permitted in City Parks.

The link for this is here:
http://www.ci.irvine.ca.us/cityhall/cs/facilityresv/bounce_house_n_picnic_information.asp

Which also has a list of approved bouncehouse vendors.

 

[changm55]

haha dude...

my bank wanted a LA HOA questionnaire filled out... honestly takes about 15 min to fill out, and keystone pacific (LA HOA) for that questionnaire HOA charged me 95 usd to my escrow... =_=;;;... (and they didnt even fill it out correctly)

im in the wrong business man... gotta figure out how to get into the HOA board... 95 usd for 15 minutes of work is not bad at all.. thats almost 400 usd per hour... lol

 

[akim997]

@IHO.  thanks so much for that information!!!!

I guess it goes to show that noone really cares.  I'm glad my HOA dollars are hard at work.  I AM going to send an email with your links thanking them for the wrong information. 

I will have to do some checking, though.  Stonegate park is a different park than we were thinking about.  Groveland park has a nice playground and picnic area.  In addition they have bathrooms.    I'll post updated info once I get more details, and on how easy it is to get the jumper permit.

 

[socal78]

That's pretty nice they'll let you do a bounce house. Here in F.R. anything put on the grass is strictly prohibited. Last spring I wanted to go all out for my little boy. Bounce house? Nope. Mini train on tracks? Denied. The reason: Preserving the grass. Those things may leave a mark.

Good thing my yard fits both. Next time I'll "ruin" my own grass. 

 

[The Motor Court Company]

Stonegate park is open to public.

For $110, you get 4 pocket parks with pools centrally located within the neighborhood.

For $300, you get 2 pocket parks without pools, parking and rest rooms. These 2 parks are also on the fringe of the neighborhood and not very accessible.

For $110, there are no immediate adjacent free ways or toll roads. you get a big neighborhood feel.

For $300, you get tranquility by listening to freeway noise 24/7.

For $110, you get an on-site elementary that you can walk to your kids to school.

For $300, you get a gated community that is ungated every day between 10AM to 6 PM because no one will buy some of the new homes. So the sales office has to remain open to public.

In comparison, $110 is well spent.

 

[changm55]

Stonegate park is open to public.

For $110, you get 4 pocket parks with pools centrally located within the neighborhood.

For $300, you get 2 pocket parks without pools, parking and rest rooms. These 2 parks are also on the fringe of the neighborhood and not very accessible.

For $110, there are no immediate adjacent free ways or toll roads. you get a big neighborhood feel.

For $300, you get tranquility by listening to freeway noise 24/7.

For $110, you get an on-site elementary that you can walk to your kids to school.

For $300, you get a gated community that is ungated every day between 10AM to 6 PM because no one will buy some of the new homes. So the sales office has to remain open to public.

In comparison, $110 is well spent.

eh, no one is comparing stongate to LA on this topic at all...  take ur crap shillness n get the flying  fuck out of here... when u try too hard to "sell" something it shows... did u get a job as a stonegate sales after u got fired on the yahooboards for being too obvious of a pumper/basher??

 

[The Motor Court Company]

there is no worse BS coming from a shill who claims Langua Altura is "tranquil" even though it is right next to 405 and 133. I am being objective while that shill is all BS.

Stonegate park is open to public.

For $110, you get 4 pocket parks with pools centrally located within the neighborhood.

For $300, you get 2 pocket parks without pools, parking and rest rooms. These 2 parks are also on the fringe of the neighborhood and not very accessible.

For $110, there are no immediate adjacent free ways or toll roads. you get a big neighborhood feel.

For $300, you get tranquility by listening to freeway noise 24/7.

For $110, you get an on-site elementary that you can walk to your kids to school.

For $300, you get a gated community that is ungated every day between 10AM to 6 PM because no one will buy some of the new homes. So the sales office has to remain open to public.

In comparison, $110 is well spent.

eh, no one is comparing stongate to LA on this topic at all...  take ur crap shillness n get the flying  fuck out of here... when u try too hard to "sell" something it shows... did u get a job as a stonegate sales after u got fired on the yahooboards for being too obvious of a pumper/basher??

 

[changm55]

i like how u didnt mention LA's parks are private along with all the private roadswithin the gate...

some ppl like it being private, and some ppl dont...

i will troll u until u lose ur pumper/basher job

 

[The Motor Court Company]

and every thing I said was a fact. The shill for Laguna Altura cannot argue with facts and has to resort to personal attacks.

 

[irvinehomeowner]

We've had a few parties in various parks around Irvine which is why I know about this stuff from the City of Irvine site.

I've had to get up pretty early in the morning to reserve the "prime spots" at Northwood park, Bill Barber park (you can reserve there I believe but some of the spots are not reservable) and Orchard park (not to be confused with Settler's in Orchard Hills).

I remember one time some lady who came about half an hour after me giving that "Arrrgh... you beat me to it!" face... I had that "Early bird gets the worm" look on mine.

 

[changm55]

there is no worse BS coming from a shill who claims Langua Altura is "tranquil" even though it is right next to 405 and 133. I am being objective while that shill is all BS.

Stonegate park is open to public.

For $110, you get 4 pocket parks with pools centrally located within the neighborhood.

For $300, you get 2 pocket parks without pools, parking and rest rooms. These 2 parks are also on the fringe of the neighborhood and not very accessible.

For $110, there are no immediate adjacent free ways or toll roads. you get a big neighborhood feel.

For $300, you get tranquility by listening to freeway noise 24/7.

For $110, you get an on-site elementary that you can walk to your kids to school.

For $300, you get a gated community that is ungated every day between 10AM to 6 PM because no one will buy some of the new homes. So the sales office has to remain open to public.

In comparison, $110 is well spent.

eh, no one is comparing stongate to LA on this topic at all...  take ur crap shillness n get the flying  fuck out of here... when u try too hard to "sell" something it shows... did u get a job as a stonegate sales after u got fired on the yahooboards for being too obvious of a pumper/basher??

sure u want facts lets bring em...

1.) if u think 200 usd is too much more for HOA, then honestly, ur living above ur means and u shouldnt buy in LA in the first place

2.) centrally located public parks? give me a break... try walking there from the epicenter of each motorcourt development, i did... then try walking to a park in LA... doesnt feel so "central" anymore eh? ill tell u why, ppl forget LA is 1/3 the size of stonegate, so on a map it sure feels like its "centrally located" but its actually quite far of a walk... maybe THIS is why there are public bathrooms in stonegate?? exactly because it is 2/3 larger then LA, have u thought of it that way?? LA bathrooms r only at the pool area so its not accessible by randoms... get ready for some random neighbors kids fucking or drugging in those awesome bathroom of urs cause they cant dope or fuck at home, id know cause thats what i did in my college years out east...

3.) driving around to quail hill to go north instead of the 133 sure is a pain yeah... but even with that, ur still closer to the hospital, nearest fire station, police station, major retail outlets... if u want to hop on the 405, there is no toll for the merge sections for the 133 to 405...

4.) proximity away from the closest elementary school are true cons... nothing to say there, but again, some ppl dont want to be bothered by kids (ie me)...

5.) just sit around in stonegate park or LA park and listen to see which is more tranquil... there is more human + car activity in stonegate period

6.) u forget ur living right next to x2 the amount of current and future low income housing residences in stonegate, LA the low income is at least shared with quail hill AND outside the LA gates... i didnt even mention the apartment complexs in stonegate... get ready for some drunk college co-op partys

7.) LA appeals to me because it is only accessible by car... i doubt anybody will walk there... im not too happy with the open gate for the remaining build out period either, but if u ever lived in a truly gated community u will understand the premium... im ok with the drawback of the gate being open until buildout... what im not ok is how stonegate will look AFTER buildout which will be my next point...

8.) u bitch about LA motorcourts looking like slums, i noticed u stopped bitching once stonegate came out with its next series of motorcourts... now they are crammed even closer together, and if sales continue to do well, the next motorcourt development will cram them even closer... i think on another thread u were joking about stonegate being the village of starter homes... lol 3ft sidewalls and a mega motorcourt road vs 6 packs... haha starter homes... thats a really nice way to say village of "slums" if u want to go by ur asshole derogatory motorcourt definition... that is why i kept saying i dont mind LA sales not doing well (unfortunately they are and there are only a 2-3 lots available n not reserved in sienna and san remo combined last time i checked 2 weeks ago when i went in for my dry wall walkthrough)

 

[akim997]

ok... back to parks.  i wasnt really comparing stonegate to LA...      going to city hall today to get my "jumper" permit.  does anyone have any experience with the companies on the irvine "approved" list?

 

[irvinehomeowner]

I think we used Orange County Bouncers once... from what I remember... the bouncer is dirty... lots of sand on the inside (maybe the group before us had it on a beach or near a sandbox).

 

[socal78]

I think we used Orange County Bouncers once... from what I remember... the bouncer is dirty... lots of sand on the inside (maybe the group before us had it on a beach or near a sandbox).

I realize I may be talking to the wrong crowd here, but - if anyone is using a bounce house and putting it in their yard, consider getting the kind of bounce house that has a slide attached. Get a hose and have the guests bring their swimsuits. It's a lot of fun for them when you make it a water slide!

 

[The Motor Court Company]

I apologize for being off topic again. I need to debunk this shill's distorted statements. I will stop after this posting.
1. $200 difference in HOA, more in mello-roos and base price and the 1% property tax. It does cost significantly more money. This is fact.
2. Stonegate has 1 public park hence public bathrooms. It also has 4 private parks with pools and bathrooms are only accessible with fob key. LA has zero for the two passive parks. This is fact.
3. True. You get freeway pollution and noise when you get the convenience. This is fact.
5. I am not the one who calls deafening road noises fro 405/133 tranquil. The road noise fro 405 is 24/7 but human activities go to near zero at night and early morning. I can have my windows open and sleep well without too much noise. This is fact.
6. True. SG does has low income housing.
7. Unless LA is guard gated, it is very easy to sneak in. Only accessible by car means you cannot really walk any where. For SG It is semi-walkable to Woodbury Town Center. This is not a fact but common sense.

I win the "debate" - I cannot really call it debate because it is so one-sided that one side uses facts the other side uses personal thoughts.

sure u want facts lets bring em...

1.) if u think 200 usd is too much more for HOA, then honestly, ur living above ur means and u shouldnt buy in LA in the first place

2.) centrally located public parks? give me a break... try walking there from the epicenter of each motorcourt development, i did... then try walking to a park in LA... doesnt feel so "central" anymore eh? ill tell u why, ppl forget LA is 1/3 the size of stonegate, so on a map it sure feels like its "centrally located" but its actually quite far of a walk... maybe THIS is why there are public bathrooms in stonegate?? exactly because it is 2/3 larger then LA, have u thought of it that way?? LA bathrooms r only at the pool area so its not accessible by randoms... get ready for some random neighbors kids fucking or drugging in those awesome bathroom of urs cause they cant dope or fuck at home, id know cause thats what i did in my college years out east...

3.) driving around to quail hill to go north instead of the 133 sure is a pain yeah... but even with that, ur still closer to the hospital, nearest fire station, police station, major retail outlets... if u want to hop on the 405, there is no toll for the merge sections for the 133 to 405...

4.) proximity away from the closest elementary school are true cons... nothing to say there, but again, some ppl dont want to be bothered by kids (ie me)...

5.) just sit around in stonegate park or LA park and listen to see which is more tranquil... there is more human + car activity in stonegate period

6.) u forget ur living right next to x2 the amount of current and future low income housing residences in stonegate, LA the low income is at least shared with quail hill AND outside the LA gates... i didnt even mention the apartment complexs in stonegate... get ready for some drunk college co-op partys

7.) LA appeals to me because it is only accessible by car... i doubt anybody will walk there... im not too happy with the open gate for the remaining build out period either, but if u ever lived in a truly gated community u will understand the premium... im ok with the drawback of the gate being open until buildout... what im not ok is how stonegate will look AFTER buildout which will be my next point...

8.) u bitch about LA motorcourts looking like slums, i noticed u stopped bitching once stonegate came out with its next series of motorcourts... now they are crammed even closer together, and if sales continue to do well, the next motorcourt development will cram them even closer... i think on another thread u were joking about stonegate being the village of starter homes... lol 3ft sidewalls and a mega motorcourt road vs 6 packs... haha starter homes... thats a really nice way to say village of "slums" if u want to go by ur asshole derogatory motorcourt definition... that is why i kept saying i dont mind LA sales not doing well (unfortunately they are and there are only a 2-3 lots available n not reserved in sienna and san remo combined last time i checked 2 weeks ago when i went in for my dry wall walkthrough)

 

[changm55]

I apologize for being off topic again. I need to debunk this shill's distorted statements. I will stop after this posting.
1. $200 difference in HOA, more in mello-roos and base price and the 1% property tax. It does cost significantly more money. This is fact.
2. Stonegate has 1 public park hence public bathrooms. It also has 4 private parks with pools and bathrooms are only accessible with fob key. LA has zero for the two passive parks. This is fact.
3. True. You get freeway pollution and noise when you get the convenience. This is fact.
5. I am not the one who calls deafening road noises fro 405/133 tranquil. The road noise fro 405 is 24/7 but human activities go to near zero at night and early morning. I can have my windows open and sleep well without too much noise. This is fact.
6. True. SG does has low income housing.
7. Unless LA is guard gated, it is very easy to sneak in. Only accessible by car means you cannot really walk any where. For SG It is semi-walkable to Woodbury Town Center. This is not a fact but common sense.

I win the "debate" - I cannot really call it debate because it is so one-sided that one side uses facts the other side uses personal thoughts.

sure u want facts lets bring em...

1.) if u think 200 usd is too much more for HOA, then honestly, ur living above ur means and u shouldnt buy in LA in the first place

2.) centrally located public parks? give me a break... try walking there from the epicenter of each motorcourt development, i did... then try walking to a park in LA... doesnt feel so "central" anymore eh? ill tell u why, ppl forget LA is 1/3 the size of stonegate, so on a map it sure feels like its "centrally located" but its actually quite far of a walk... maybe THIS is why there are public bathrooms in stonegate?? exactly because it is 2/3 larger then LA, have u thought of it that way?? LA bathrooms r only at the pool area so its not accessible by randoms... get ready for some random neighbors kids fucking or drugging in those awesome bathroom of urs cause they cant dope or fuck at home, id know cause thats what i did in my college years out east...

3.) driving around to quail hill to go north instead of the 133 sure is a pain yeah... but even with that, ur still closer to the hospital, nearest fire station, police station, major retail outlets... if u want to hop on the 405, there is no toll for the merge sections for the 133 to 405...

4.) proximity away from the closest elementary school are true cons... nothing to say there, but again, some ppl dont want to be bothered by kids (ie me)...

5.) just sit around in stonegate park or LA park and listen to see which is more tranquil... there is more human + car activity in stonegate period

6.) u forget ur living right next to x2 the amount of current and future low income housing residences in stonegate, LA the low income is at least shared with quail hill AND outside the LA gates... i didnt even mention the apartment complexs in stonegate... get ready for some drunk college co-op partys

7.) LA appeals to me because it is only accessible by car... i doubt anybody will walk there... im not too happy with the open gate for the remaining build out period either, but if u ever lived in a truly gated community u will understand the premium... im ok with the drawback of the gate being open until buildout... what im not ok is how stonegate will look AFTER buildout which will be my next point...

8.) u bitch about LA motorcourts looking like slums, i noticed u stopped bitching once stonegate came out with its next series of motorcourts... now they are crammed even closer together, and if sales continue to do well, the next motorcourt development will cram them even closer... i think on another thread u were joking about stonegate being the village of starter homes... lol 3ft sidewalls and a mega motorcourt road vs 6 packs... haha starter homes... thats a really nice way to say village of "slums" if u want to go by ur asshole derogatory motorcourt definition... that is why i kept saying i dont mind LA sales not doing well (unfortunately they are and there are only a 2-3 lots available n not reserved in sienna and san remo combined last time i checked 2 weeks ago when i went in for my dry wall walkthrough)

i do not apologize for being off topic because i love fucking with this guy

i can spin facts with you all day with rhetoric, makes good practice before becoming a politician

1.) $200 difference in HOA is a fact sure.  You PAY for what you get is also a fact.  The better a neighborhood is maintained the better it retains value is also a fact.  Because of this, stonegate is a prime location to buy and rent out your unit because it is "mainstream".  There will be more renters than owners in stonegate, is a fact even if we disregard the apt building rentals.  You go figure out what rentalwner ratios do to landvalue.

2.) Sure, you got more parks is a fact i know.  Stonegate is three times the size of LA, is also a fact.  The residence to park ratio is roughly the same, is also a fact.  The walking distance i mentioned, is also a fact. 

3.) You love comparing apples to oranges with pollution.  The freeway does have more "freeway" pollution as provided in the case studies i posted before, is a fact.  You often omit inland irvine (stonegates location) has poorer "general" air quality index than areas closer to the coast as provided by the CA air quality index, is also a fact.  You also omit the air flow goes inland data which is also a fact.  My pollution is your "general" air, is also a fact.

5.) Youre simply bullshitting about the "deafening" noise.  I was well aware of this and went at all hours to loiter as much as i could before I bought.  I also loitered at stonegate as much as i could.  There are more immediate humans and cars noise in stonegate, is a fact.  When it finishes building out it will be similar to woodbury in population density is a fact.  Now try going to Woodbury to sit around and let that be your control, then go to LA or a noisy part of Quail hill to be ur LA control to include your "defeaning" highway noise.  Tell me which one is louder.  Both areas are zoned the same human medium density, but stonegate is much larger with no gates to surrounding communities, is a fact.  Human flow and human traffic will feel significantly more after buildout, is also a fact.

6.) x2 low income ratio compared to LA... x3 in the not too distant future as stonegate finishes build out and more will be added in the great park area as irvine needs to abide by the 2015 or 2014 Californias mandate deadline.  Why do you consistently omit these if you are saying ur being "objective"?

7A.) LA says on the HOA docs there will be a gaurd at the gate to prevent cars is a fact.  The infrastructure with the gaurd house is there, is a fact.  Whether or not once we surpass 51% ownership and HOA votes on the guard is still an unknown, is also a fact.  You dont know any better then I do how this will play out is also a fact.  Sure anybody can sneak in is also a fact if they have a strong enough motive.  But what are you comparing that to? stonegate where I dont even need a motive and can just end up there cause i got lost driving?  Youre same argument can be made for ppl in any gated community for like those living in turtle ridge where there is a gate and I've easily snuck in many times to visit relatives.  What youre trying to say is having a gate is the same as having no gate? sure, just go to spotcrime.com and monitor the difference, and youll see... oh is also a FACT

7B.) Which idiot will buy in LA expecting to "walk" somewhere? anybody doing so obviously did not do their real estate homework and should be tared and feathered on site.  What target market are your posts dictating towards?? ppl who dont have time to do this hw like FCBs? or ppl who cannot make cognitive decisions for themselves? i thought u hated FCBs.  You cant walk anywhere in LA is a fact.  Its what appeals to LA buyers.  What i find funny is the fact your pushing for ppl to walk everywhere in stonegate/woodbury again simply means more human traffic yet ur saying stonegate has less human noise.  Does not make any sense...

Your the one that uses personal thoughts, is a fact

I only learn from the best (you) to rip my mentor (you) a new asshole... i hope it feels good cause i expect to do this again on ur next post

 

[changm55]

examples of MCC using personal thoughts, scare tactics, and other means to PUSH his point... READER BEWARE

Stay away from El Camino Real unless your budget demands it. It is among the least desirable neighborhoods in Irvine.

for toxic risk, it needs to be 3CWG + RV length driveway + single story home for me to consider.

I am sorry I am not Chinese so I do not welcome lower standards.

to be fair, in another thread, there is some comparison between LA and SG in terms to distance to major places (Costco, Target, 85 degree...etc) and LA can come out ahead depending on your life style. But certainly grocery stores and walkability to schools have high priority because you do these the most often.

For the swimming pool, LA has 600 total units for 1 pool. SG at build out (the max limit is 3100, 700~1000 of them being apartments, I had the exact numbers at home) so that means about 600 or less units for each pool (4 pools). So in that sense it is quite comparable. Unit to pool ratio LR is the best and Woodbury is not too bad, although apartment dwellers in WB can also access the pools.

My biggest gripe for the two LA pocket parks is the lack of rest rooms and ample parking space. Sienna and San Remo owners are already at far distance to these parks and there are no rest rooms and parking! Imagine you have 4 little potty trained kids and every time you bring them to these parks, if any one of them needs to potty you have to bring the whole gang with you and walk home!

It is like TIC giving a big middle finger to these owners that not only they pay more than SG counter parts, but also have very limited access to parks.  these units also serve as the noise and pollutant buffer for the two wealthier neighborhoods. Most Asians owners are smart and see this through and no wonder these are slow selling.

Is San Mateo the new normal? it looks like it outsells the sister product Sienna by quite a lot. I mean starter detached homes with tiny backyard and no driveways?

Do Asian people shy away from Sienna because it is too close to the 405 that they mistakenly think it is for low income housing?

no it is more about decreasing civility in Irvine because of Chinese immigrants.

more low income housing by the freeways?

Good observations. Great Wall is a Chinese national pride and walling individual neighborhoods give additional sense of segregation and security. At least it clearly defines the boundaries of each neighborhood, making comparison and gloating much easier.

No Laguna Altura is not worse than Stonegate, or some people will argue it is better. At least TIC is charging a premium on LA over SG and I won't bet against TIC.
And to be fair, I did mention the positive things about LA - south of 405, better climate, best schools in Irvine, isolated feeling...etc. I am just not willing to live that close to major freeways and pay a premium to get all of the above.

For a landfill that is not leaking, 1.5~2 miles is acceptable to me.

checked out Laguna Altura again this past Saturday - for the new "view" park. So glad we did not choose LA because we were reminded how noisy this whole community can get. I cannot imagine buying a house and forced to shut off my windows all the time because the noise from 405 and 133 are so deafening. Frankly even if it is free, I will not live this close to the freeways. Only hobos live this close to freeways.

QFPD

all jokes aside,
Laguna Altura does enjoy a cooler climate and is zoned for Irvine's best schools. It is also quite isolated and with the topography you can argue it is among the best Zombie defending villages in Irvine. While overpriced, the two SFR tracts are not a terrible deal due to the better location and closer the main park.

Sienna and San Remo remind me of slums. Closest to 405, no amenities, no parking...just rows after rows of super compact motor court homes.

the best way to avoid air pollution is distance. Elevation, wind direction...etc are not as effective. LA is in a bowl shape so it actually traps the smog (the gases that hurt children's respiratory systems are the very fine particles that you won't see accumulate on the exterior window). From air pollution point of view, Stonegate and Woodbury easily beats out Laguna Altura. For having a more mild climate and better schools Laguna Altura easily beats the other two. There is really no argument here. You either choose between your children's health or everything else.

 

[socal78]

Mein eyes!

 

[changm55]

hey MCC,

still waitin on more of ur "facts" man... bring it already... getting bored here

where u at man?? aw dont tell me ya pussin out again like last time