Irvinecommuter
New member
Personally, I liked TLJ overall. There were some bad misses but overall the themes and character development were really good. Completely opposite of how I felt about TFA.
Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Warning: Possible Spoilers)
- Thread starter irvinehomeowner
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+1 . Finally saw it too. Ruining Luke's legacy did it for me - Luke Skywalker, a legend and one of the few all-time icons in pop culture in the entire world and this director makes him into a weasel and a coward ? WTF is going on w this franchise. Looks like they look a long list of things to check off -- merchandizing, catering to all all overseas markets , covering all ethnic demos , etc. and the product was this cluster f ** . And this baby-faced Kylo Ren trope looks like Darth Vader on the cheap.
Disney is like the kiss of death for creativity. The way they ruined Pixar is how they are destroying this hallowed franchise. Well at-least we have the Empire Strikes Back to treasure forever (my favorite of all ) .
I don't understand this point of view. Did you not see what happened to Yoda and Obi-Wan in the original series versus what they were like in the prequels? Warriors becoming jaded and hermits at the end of their life is a tale as old as time.
I guess that's one of my problems though, they aren't changing some of the narrative. And the ones they are changing, are way out there.
Every Padawan needs a Master to learn from, except Rey... and Finn.
How did Leia master her Mary Poppins Force power? I half expected Snoke to twist his decapitated wrist and pull his body halves together.
Since when could Jedi astral project solid holograms across the galaxy?
Oh well, not gonna stop me from watching "Star Wars 9: Not the Last Jedi to Have Overpowered Abilities" in 2019.
Which of the narratives are they changing? Luke can't become old, bitter, and cynical like Obi Wan or Yoda?
Well..Luke spent like 2 weeks with Yoda. We don't know how long Rey was with Luke.
Finn is not a jedi but I do like the spreading out of the force rather than duopoly held by jedis and sith.
The Leia scene was dumb but it was just one scene.
Jedis literally show up holo projections after they die but somehow doing it while they are alive is unbelievable?
Why should Hamill's viewpoint be any more valid than Lucas who turned two of the greatest Jedis into cynical old men? It makes every sense to me for Luke to turn out the way he did. He had no other jedis to help him and all the expectation in the world. He was training his nephew to be the next great jedi and almost killed him. He was never "properly trained" and always flirted with the dark side. Literally the Chosen One went from idealistic youth to evil sith lord killing children. I am not sure why Luke should be immuned.
Fonzi jumping the shark was bad but that's not why Happy Days was bad after that.
Lucas was visionary with Star Wars, not so much with the prequels.
Based on all the SW material I've consumed over the years in both books, comics, animation whatever, Luke wouldn't go the same route as Obi and Yoda. I would more expect him to go dark like his father but only to infiltrate and dismantle from the inside (great graphic novel on this if you ever get a chance to find it).
My thread, my opinion... so nyah, nyah, nyah!
But Star Wars is where Obi Wan was depicted as a cynical old man.
But you are okay with him going dark...why would it not be logical for him to become cynical and withdrawn?
Are you kidding me? Frozen 2 will be insane. The problem is that it was 20 minutes in length and confused people.
Disney made one of the best SW movies in Rogue One and oversaw the Clone Wars...they made SW a lot better.
The narrative they should have changed was not let Luke do that in the new trilogy (keep up here).
This is where the narrative should change. Yes, it would be similar in Luke going dark like his father, but the difference is it would be for a different purpose, to dismantle the Empire (make sense now?).
They were on the right track by having Luke's nephew be drawn to the dark side and by ultimately betraying Snoke, they cribbed a bit from the other stories.
But again, just my opinion on what I thought of the movie and how it should have happened. Not sure why you keep asking me to explain it, are my answers too cryptic? This isn't like a right or wrong thing... just my personal point of view.
P.S. Darth Emo is the worst antagonist of the series. I can't even take him seriously, he should have never taken his mask off. Too bad he destroyed it in a temper tantrum, hopefully he makes a new one and never removes it now that Snoke isn't around to scold him about it.
This I can agree with. Despite that disdain for the songs, Frozen was actually a very good movie... we just watched it again the other day and I am surprised at all the nuances in the characters and storyline.
Rogue One was also excellent (as were the animated series), which is probably why I expected TLJ to be better and to correct the problems with TFA.
Sorry...made the discussion way to adversarial.
I hated Kylo in TFA (I disliked much of TFA) but I like him better in TLJ....we have seen a whining Luke develop into Jedi Luke...have not seen a sith/evil equivalent.
Here is my problem - Luke Skywalker is not some supporting character like Obi Wan or Jedi - he along w Han Solo and Leia , is the holy trinity of Stars Wars mythology . He is an American Icon for chrissakes. And from what I learned from my International colleagues in grad school , he has done more to spread American values than any amount of foreign aid $$ . That binary sunset scene on Tatooine w Mark Hamill set against John Williams masterpiece soundtrack is etched into movie history forever as among the best motion picture clips of all time.
I have no problem w heroes turning into something they are initially not. But if it is done w care and w a proper bridge . The lightsaber that Luke lost during his epic battle w his father (the one and only Darth Vader) - when Rey presents him w it , he just tosses it back like that , and the audience is supposed to get cheap laughs from that ? Really ? Han Solo's death has no poignancy for Luke ?
Original Episodes 4-6 had their moments of levity and self deprecation primarily generated by Han Solo who was a proxy for the audience. But this "TLJ " has no sense of occasion and history or legacy. It is just about saying "whats the big deal anyways " and "screw all that " lets just do what we want - and then you get dumbest of dumb scenes like Princess Leia turning into Mary Poppins . Atleast give Carrie Fisher a proper send off after her death in real life. She could have drifted into space and that would have nicely closed a chapter , but no ...
And I am not just addicted to episodes 4-6 , although they are the better ones. I did like "Rogue One" because it was done properly , developed slowly and had a proper script with a proper , emotionally uplifting ending .
This movie will be financially ok , I guess . Will make lost of $$ in overseas markets and people will still see it because it is "Star Wars " after all . But for the next one , if it is the same director, I am saving my $$ for when it comes on dvd or for free on cable.
And what happen to Han? He became a sentimental mush that got stabbed by his son. I guess I never saw Luke as some savior of the democracy. He had his own personal journey and redeemed his father.
By the point of TLJ, Luke was completely fed up with the jedi and saw them as pure negatives. The lightsaber scene was a representation of his disdain for the jedi order. If you watch Rebels...Ahsoka showed the same disdain and vehemently objected to being called a jedi.
I would agree that some of the scenes were bad (i.e. Hux/Poe and the Leia scene) but most of the movie as well as the themes developed there in were great.
The movie was written well before Fisher's death and the director specifically didn't want to "kill her off".
rickr said:
+1 . Finally saw it too. Ruining Luke's legacy did it for me - Luke Skywalker, a legend and one of the few all-time icons in pop culture in the entire world and this director makes him into a weasel and a coward ? WTF is going on w this franchise. Looks like they look a long list of things to check off -- merchandizing, catering to all all overseas markets , covering all ethnic demos , etc. and the product was this cluster f ** . And this baby-faced Kylo Ren trope looks like Darth Vader on the cheap.
Disney is like the kiss of death for creativity. The way they ruined Pixar is how they are destroying this hallowed franchise. Well at-least we have the Empire Strikes Back to treasure forever (my favorite of all ) .
Irvinecommuter
New member
fortune11 said:
I don't understand this point of view. Did you not see what happened to Yoda and Obi-Wan in the original series versus what they were like in the prequels? Warriors becoming jaded and hermits at the end of their life is a tale as old as time.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
Irvinecommuter said:
I guess that's one of my problems though, they aren't changing some of the narrative. And the ones they are changing, are way out there.
Every Padawan needs a Master to learn from, except Rey... and Finn.
How did Leia master her Mary Poppins Force power? I half expected Snoke to twist his decapitated wrist and pull his body halves together.
Since when could Jedi astral project solid holograms across the galaxy?
Oh well, not gonna stop me from watching "Star Wars 9: Not the Last Jedi to Have Overpowered Abilities" in 2019.
Irvinecommuter
New member
irvinehomeowner said:Irvinecommuter said:
I guess that's one of my problems though, they aren't changing some of the narrative. And the ones they are changing, are way out there.
Every Padawan needs a Master to learn from, except Rey... and Finn.
How did Leia master her Mary Poppins Force power? I half expected Snoke to twist his decapitated wrist and pull his body halves together.
Since when could Jedi astral project solid holograms across the galaxy?
Oh well, not gonna stop me from watching "Star Wars 9: Not the Last Jedi to Have Overpowered Abilities" in 2019.
Which of the narratives are they changing? Luke can't become old, bitter, and cynical like Obi Wan or Yoda?
Well..Luke spent like 2 weeks with Yoda. We don't know how long Rey was with Luke.
Finn is not a jedi but I do like the spreading out of the force rather than duopoly held by jedis and sith.
The Leia scene was dumb but it was just one scene.
Jedis literally show up holo projections after they die but somehow doing it while they are alive is unbelievable?
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
Even Hamill will tell you that Luke wouldn't go the way of Obi and Yoda... he's the son of the Chosen One.
Fonzi jumping the shark was just one scene too.
Fonzi jumping the shark was just one scene too.
Irvinecommuter
New member
irvinehomeowner said:Even Hamill will tell you that Luke wouldn't go the way of Obi and Yoda... he's the son of the Chosen One.
Fonzi jumping the shark was just one scene too.
Why should Hamill's viewpoint be any more valid than Lucas who turned two of the greatest Jedis into cynical old men? It makes every sense to me for Luke to turn out the way he did. He had no other jedis to help him and all the expectation in the world. He was training his nephew to be the next great jedi and almost killed him. He was never "properly trained" and always flirted with the dark side. Literally the Chosen One went from idealistic youth to evil sith lord killing children. I am not sure why Luke should be immuned.
Fonzi jumping the shark was bad but that's not why Happy Days was bad after that.
sgip
Well-known member
Since we're only about 145 days away from another SW film, the stand alone "Young Han Solo" space opera, when should we start another thread about that film?
The house of mouse is going to cook the goose laying all these golden eggs if these films/tie ins/cartoons/toys become too saturated IMHO. Look at the visceral reaction to the "Frozen" short that played before "Coco". That crappy short alone seems to have stuck a fork into that franchise.
My .02c
The house of mouse is going to cook the goose laying all these golden eggs if these films/tie ins/cartoons/toys become too saturated IMHO. Look at the visceral reaction to the "Frozen" short that played before "Coco". That crappy short alone seems to have stuck a fork into that franchise.
My .02c
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
Irvinecommuter said:irvinehomeowner said:Even Hamill will tell you that Luke wouldn't go the way of Obi and Yoda... he's the son of the Chosen One.
Fonzi jumping the shark was just one scene too.
Why should Hamill's viewpoint be any more valid than Lucas who turned two of the greatest Jedis into cynical old men? It makes every sense to me for Luke to turn out the way he did. He had no other jedis to help him and all the expectation in the world. He was training his nephew to be the next great jedi and almost killed him. He was never "properly trained" and always flirted with the dark side. Literally the Chosen One went from idealistic youth to evil sith lord killing children. I am not sure why Luke should be immuned.
Fonzi jumping the shark was bad but that's not why Happy Days was bad after that.
Lucas was visionary with Star Wars, not so much with the prequels.
Based on all the SW material I've consumed over the years in both books, comics, animation whatever, Luke wouldn't go the same route as Obi and Yoda. I would more expect him to go dark like his father but only to infiltrate and dismantle from the inside (great graphic novel on this if you ever get a chance to find it).
My thread, my opinion... so nyah, nyah, nyah!
Irvinecommuter
New member
irvinehomeowner said:
But Star Wars is where Obi Wan was depicted as a cynical old man.
But you are okay with him going dark...why would it not be logical for him to become cynical and withdrawn?
Irvinecommuter
New member
Soylent Green Is People said:
Are you kidding me? Frozen 2 will be insane. The problem is that it was 20 minutes in length and confused people.
Disney made one of the best SW movies in Rogue One and oversaw the Clone Wars...they made SW a lot better.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
So? I didn't say there was anything wrong with that or Yoda secluding themselves.Irvinecommuter said:
The narrative they should have changed was not let Luke do that in the new trilogy (keep up here).
Because Luke didn't become a Jedi traditionally. He wasn't raised as a Jedi. And like his father, there is a seduction to the dark side that runs in him. That's why it's not logical for him to go hermit.
This is where the narrative should change. Yes, it would be similar in Luke going dark like his father, but the difference is it would be for a different purpose, to dismantle the Empire (make sense now?).
They were on the right track by having Luke's nephew be drawn to the dark side and by ultimately betraying Snoke, they cribbed a bit from the other stories.
But again, just my opinion on what I thought of the movie and how it should have happened. Not sure why you keep asking me to explain it, are my answers too cryptic? This isn't like a right or wrong thing... just my personal point of view.
P.S. Darth Emo is the worst antagonist of the series. I can't even take him seriously, he should have never taken his mask off. Too bad he destroyed it in a temper tantrum, hopefully he makes a new one and never removes it now that Snoke isn't around to scold him about it.
irvinehomeowner
Well-known member
Irvinecommuter said:
This I can agree with. Despite that disdain for the songs, Frozen was actually a very good movie... we just watched it again the other day and I am surprised at all the nuances in the characters and storyline.
Rogue One was also excellent (as were the animated series), which is probably why I expected TLJ to be better and to correct the problems with TFA.
Irvinecommuter
New member
irvinehomeowner said:
Sorry...made the discussion way to adversarial.
I hated Kylo in TFA (I disliked much of TFA) but I like him better in TLJ....we have seen a whining Luke develop into Jedi Luke...have not seen a sith/evil equivalent.
Irvinecommuter said:
Here is my problem - Luke Skywalker is not some supporting character like Obi Wan or Jedi - he along w Han Solo and Leia , is the holy trinity of Stars Wars mythology . He is an American Icon for chrissakes. And from what I learned from my International colleagues in grad school , he has done more to spread American values than any amount of foreign aid $$ . That binary sunset scene on Tatooine w Mark Hamill set against John Williams masterpiece soundtrack is etched into movie history forever as among the best motion picture clips of all time.
I have no problem w heroes turning into something they are initially not. But if it is done w care and w a proper bridge . The lightsaber that Luke lost during his epic battle w his father (the one and only Darth Vader) - when Rey presents him w it , he just tosses it back like that , and the audience is supposed to get cheap laughs from that ? Really ? Han Solo's death has no poignancy for Luke ?
Original Episodes 4-6 had their moments of levity and self deprecation primarily generated by Han Solo who was a proxy for the audience. But this "TLJ " has no sense of occasion and history or legacy. It is just about saying "whats the big deal anyways " and "screw all that " lets just do what we want - and then you get dumbest of dumb scenes like Princess Leia turning into Mary Poppins . Atleast give Carrie Fisher a proper send off after her death in real life. She could have drifted into space and that would have nicely closed a chapter , but no ...
And I am not just addicted to episodes 4-6 , although they are the better ones. I did like "Rogue One" because it was done properly , developed slowly and had a proper script with a proper , emotionally uplifting ending .
This movie will be financially ok , I guess . Will make lost of $$ in overseas markets and people will still see it because it is "Star Wars " after all . But for the next one , if it is the same director, I am saving my $$ for when it comes on dvd or for free on cable.
sgip
Well-known member
Not saying Disney is making SW worse, but they are on the verge of hypersaturation. That's rarely a good thing for any kind of product.
Rogue 1 was a very good addition to the SW Canon IMHO. Vader needed better dialogue, but everything else was pretty dang worth me taking $10 out of my pocket at the theater to see it.
As for Frozen, it's a very young franchise. They need to hurry up on the sequel before their target audience ages out of the magic they saw in the first film, and it better be on or above par or interest will wane. We'll see. Any idea when F2 will be released?
My .02c
Rogue 1 was a very good addition to the SW Canon IMHO. Vader needed better dialogue, but everything else was pretty dang worth me taking $10 out of my pocket at the theater to see it.
As for Frozen, it's a very young franchise. They need to hurry up on the sequel before their target audience ages out of the magic they saw in the first film, and it better be on or above par or interest will wane. We'll see. Any idea when F2 will be released?
My .02c
Irvinecommuter
New member
fortune11 said:
And what happen to Han? He became a sentimental mush that got stabbed by his son. I guess I never saw Luke as some savior of the democracy. He had his own personal journey and redeemed his father.
By the point of TLJ, Luke was completely fed up with the jedi and saw them as pure negatives. The lightsaber scene was a representation of his disdain for the jedi order. If you watch Rebels...Ahsoka showed the same disdain and vehemently objected to being called a jedi.
I would agree that some of the scenes were bad (i.e. Hux/Poe and the Leia scene) but most of the movie as well as the themes developed there in were great.
The movie was written well before Fisher's death and the director specifically didn't want to "kill her off".