SKF (Ultra Short Financial)

Gohabsgo_IHB

New member
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this ETF.



I like it because it's shorting financial and because it's ultra short.



I don't like it because volatility kills return on leveraged ETFs.



I don't like it because everytime the government bails out a bank it goes down the tank. (Note: this didn't happen today with BoA bailout...maybe everything lo9oks so bad now!).



When would you get in, when would you get out?



Thx for your input.
 
[quote author="Roo" date=1232152391]

When would you get in, when would you get out?



</blockquote>


Get out as soon as possible after you get in. You don't want to hold these leveraged ETF's for long. There has been a lot of discussion on these boards (and others) about the pitfalls of these instruments. See Awgee's recent post on the Daytrading Thread.
 
[quote author="BLUE FIRE" date=1232152626][quote author="Roo" date=1232152391]

When would you get in, when would you get out?



</blockquote>


Get out as soon as possible after you get in. You don't want to hold these leveraged ETF's for long. There has been a lot of discussion on these boards (and others) about the pitfalls of these instruments. See Awgee's recent post on the Daytrading Thread.</blockquote>
Exactly, use it only to day trade.
 
You missed the boat on shorting financials. You should have bought this ETF when everybody was selling it. Too late now.

Can it go lower? sure...



And as BlueF said, get in, get out. If you're not a day-trader or know how to read technicals, charts etc and have daily access to live streaming quotes or have some experience don't bother. Because I'll be there to take your money along with others. Because this ETF isn't about investing..its about gambling and if you're just starting to play poker, the pro's will take you any given day.



Hard to give advice on a ultra short ETF because you literally would have to sit next to me and I would have to say ok...Buy........NOW......sell......NOW.



Nothing personal here, but here is what I tell others. If you have to ask for advice, then chances are it's not for you.
 
[quote author="Roo" date=1232152391]I'd like to hear your thoughts on this ETF.



I like it because it's shorting financial and because it's ultra short.



I don't like it because volatility kills return on leveraged ETFs.



I don't like it because everytime the government bails out a bank it goes down the tank. (Note: this didn't happen today with BoA bailout...maybe everything lo9oks so bad now!).



When would you get in, when would you get out?



Thx for your input.</blockquote>


To be brutally honest, if you have to post something like this...you shouldn't be looking to trade the SKF.
 
From THOMPSON REUTERS



The Tail Wagging the Dog



We think it is time to address what we consider to be a major contributor to the general distress and uneasiness that plagues our markets today. In the last few months there has been a proliferation of Exchange Traded Funds (ETFs) whose daily movements correspond to twice or more of the inverse of the index they reflect. One leveraged ETF vehicle is at 3x today and we?ve heard rumors that there are instruments on the immediate horizon which will even further increase the leverage up to 10x ETF. Some of these leveraged securities reflect broad macro indices which, while troublesome, are not as horrifically negative as those which reflect particular subsections of the market, e.g., Financials, Real Estate Investment Trusts, and various commodities, to name only a few.



Leveraged long and short ETFs are making an already unstable environment much, much worse and are removing whatever faith in our public markets remains. In addition, they are making otherwise stable individual securities, for example, Simon Property Group (SPG) and Equity Residential (EQR), to name only two of hundreds, both of which are reflected in the ProShares Ultra Real Estate long (URE) and short



(SRS) ETFs, causing them to look and behave like volatile growth stocks such as GOOG and AAPL.



Both SPG and EQR have recently exhibited intraday volatility of over twenty percent in a single trading session, and most often this climaxes in the last half hour of trading. The moves of these securities are technical in nature and have nothing to do with news releases or any other fundamentals. They are being entirely manipulated by computer driven trading strategies and are further exacerbating the rampant crisis of confidence.



The final hour of every trading day is now feared, if not dreaded, by virtually every savvy market participant. Volume from 3-4pm EST has grown to greater than fifty percent of total daily volume in certain underlying securities and volatility has grown exponentially at the same time.



One example of this happened Monday, December 1. EQR was down $1.50 on five million shares at 3pm and closed the day down $6.58 on 10.6 million shares. In that last hour there was no change of any kind in the company?s fundamentals. As a market pundit recently commented, ?when markets make sharp movements without any discernable reason, investors lose faith in their ability to function properly.?



There is absolutely no economic purpose or value to these instruments.



We believe that trading in these securities in the way they are currently operating must be stopped immediately.



Purchasing a levered ETF (Ultra Long or Ultra Short) is akin to buying or selling a basket of securities in a particular market sector on margin. These vehicles, as described in the prospectuses, provide double the daily volatility of the underlying index that they track. ProShares, the major company (of three) that sponsors these funds must adjust for the price difference between the underlying components in the index and the move in the ETF each day. They accomplish this balancing act by buying or selling swaps and futures, which then must be reconciled in the market, against the underlying securities; hence the huge moves in individual stocks. Moreover, many of the ?players? using these vehicles do so on margin, further increasing the inherent leverage to double the 2x that it had already become.



An expense fee of .95% (of average daily net assets) is charged by the sponsors incenting them to grow both the funds individually and the number of such entities as quickly as possible. A few brokers, most notably Goldman Sachs, have provided a mechanism for day-end balancing which guarantees the sponsor?s 2x performance and provides a big spread (we hear, but don?t actually know, to be inordinately large) to the broker. While the brokerages can certainly argue that they are at risk, we are told that this risk is minimal and controllable relative to the inherent profitability.



It cannot be overstated that this is strictly a day-trading vehicle, as the prospectuses clearly state, and the only thing we believe they contribute is exaggerated volatility and yet another reason not to invest in our markets. This is vaguely reminiscent of the crisis produced by ?portfolio insurance.? Artificial factors not only dramatically increase volatility, they also raise the cost of capital and exacerbate the already negative consequences of the growing recession. And, because of the huge dislocation created by this artificial pricing (mark to market), on negative days Wall Street firms are forced to issue margin calls and liquidate customer positions, contributing to further instability.



Let?s take a brief look at the mechanics of how these ultra long and ultra short ETFs operate. For example, one purchases the URE, the ProShares Ultra Real Estate long ETF. In the last hour of the day, the sponsors of these ETFs must rebalance to insure that the ETF?s performance is 2x the performance of the underlying basket of stocks.



This is done by trading swaps and then the counterparty to these swaps must in turn buy or sell the underlying stocks in order to be hedged.



The more drastic the move in the market, the more pressure the ETFs are under to provide 2x the performance of the stocks, thereby exacerbating the moves in the underlying equities. This occurs simultaneously on both sides (ultra long and ultra short) doubling the force of the influence on the stocks in the basket. On down days the ultra short has to get shorter at the exact same time as the ultra long has to sell to end the day less long.



Let?s also look at the growth in volume in these Ultra ETFs and the corresponding explosion in volatility in the markets. Using the URE as an example again, in the last ninety days the average daily volume has gone from less than five hundred thousand shares a day to seventeen million shares a day. Notably during this time, the S&P 500 Index has had seventeen five percent up or down moves in a single day. The S&P has only had thirty-four five percent up or down moves in the last fifty-six years.



We need to pay immediate attention to this. One easy remedy would be for the SEC, which some now refer to as LONHO (Lights On Nobody Home), to simply reestablish the uptick rule, one which worked well for decades



(1934 Act) and which was eliminated for no discernable, rational purpose. However, there are many other things that should be considered.



We have allowed a serious moral hazard to emerge. As we explain in the ethics classes we teach, legality refers to what you can do, while ethics is about what you should do. We don?t pretend to know all the answers. What we are sure of is the necessity to recognize this issue and move as rationally and quickly as possible to eliminate the negative influence it increasingly exerts.
 
[quote author="optimusprime" date=1232156228][quote author="Roo" date=1232152391]I'd like to hear your thoughts on this ETF.



I like it because it's shorting financial and because it's ultra short.



I don't like it because volatility kills return on leveraged ETFs.



I don't like it because everytime the government bails out a bank it goes down the tank. (Note: this didn't happen today with BoA bailout...maybe everything lo9oks so bad now!).



When would you get in, when would you get out?



Thx for your input.</blockquote>


To be brutally honest, if you have to post something like this...you shouldn't be looking to trade the SKF.</blockquote>


Don't worry, I don't take it personnal. I porbably know more than what is shown above, but I still don't know much.



The more you know, the more you realize you have not clue about what is going on.
 
[quote author="blackvault_cm" date=1232155631]You missed the boat on shorting financials. </blockquote>


No I didn't. I missed it once in September. But I got a decent return this time.



[quote author="blackvault_cm" date=1232155631]Because this ETF isn't about investing..its about gambling and if you're just starting to play poker, the pro's will take you any given day.</blockquote>


I do play poker and I enjoy it (well, when I win!). I like how you put it, I've never seen myself investing as me vs OTHERS.





[quote author="blackvault_cm" date=1232155631]Hard to give advice on a ultra short ETF because you literally would have to sit next to me and I would have to say ok...Buy........NOW......sell......NOW.</blockquote>


I'd really like to see how an experienced day trader trades. Unfortunately, I have a day job. Well, I shouldn't say unfrotunately, I'm grateful to have a job!



[quote author="blackvault_cm" date=1232155631]Nothing personal here, but here is what I tell others. If you have to ask for advice, then chances are it's not for you.</blockquote>


Don't worry, I'm posting to get comments. It is what it is. Thanks for your input.
 
No problem Roo. Here how I see it.



You buy 10 apples for 1 dollar each, and hope to sell it to someone else for 1.25 each. That someone else will either buy or negotiate a different price. Once a deal is struck, that is the value of apples for that moment.



An experienced farmer will have an educated guess that a drought will occur later this year or that something will affect the supply of apples. Therefore he might actually keep his apples or even buy more apples for 1.25 thinking that prices will go up in the future as supply shrinks.



However, if you're a pharmacist you might not have as much experience when it comes to apples or weather patterns, or know whether the cost of producing apples might go up or down. Now neither can predict the future, but the farmer is more experienced and is in a better position to take advantage of pharmacist whether he is to sell apples or buy them.



This is why I stick to what I know or have experience in. I can go trade Best Buy, Boeing, or Wal-Mart...but I lack experience there and would be the newbie coming in and probably taken advantage of.



However, if you come over to the Cisco, Alcoa or Exxon tables...then chances are, you're my bitch.
 
[quote author="blackvault_cm" date=1232159239]No problem Roo. Here how I see it.



You buy 10 apples for 1 dollar each, and hope to sell it to someone else for 1.25 each. That someone else will either buy or negotiate a different price. Once a deal is struck, that is the value of apples for that moment.



An experienced farmer will have an educated guess that a drought will occur later this year or that something will affect the supply of apples. Therefore he might actually buy apples for 1.25 thinking that prices will go up in the future as supply shrinks.



However, if you're a pharmacist you might not have as much experience when it comes to apples or weather patterns, or know whether the cost of producing apples might go up or down. Now neither can predict the future, but the farmer is more experienced and is in a better position to take advantage of pharmacist whether he is to sell apples or buy them.



This is why I stick to what I know or have experience in. I can go trade Best Buy, Boeing, or Wal-Mart...but I lack experience there and would be the newbie coming in and probably taken advantage of.



However, if you come over to the Cisco, Alcoa or Exxon tables...then chances are, you're my bitch.</blockquote>


Just to make things clear - I'll never be your bitch.



I understand your way of thinking and I think it's right. The fact that we do transaction over the Internet makes it more impersonal.
 
[quote author="Roo" date=1232159516][quote author="blackvault_cm" date=1232159239]No problem Roo. Here how I see it.



You buy 10 apples for 1 dollar each, and hope to sell it to someone else for 1.25 each. That someone else will either buy or negotiate a different price. Once a deal is struck, that is the value of apples for that moment.



An experienced farmer will have an educated guess that a drought will occur later this year or that something will affect the supply of apples. Therefore he might actually buy apples for 1.25 thinking that prices will go up in the future as supply shrinks.



However, if you're a pharmacist you might not have as much experience when it comes to apples or weather patterns, or know whether the cost of producing apples might go up or down. Now neither can predict the future, but the farmer is more experienced and is in a better position to take advantage of pharmacist whether he is to sell apples or buy them.



This is why I stick to what I know or have experience in. I can go trade Best Buy, Boeing, or Wal-Mart...but I lack experience there and would be the newbie coming in and probably taken advantage of.



However, if you come over to the Cisco, Alcoa or Exxon tables...then chances are, you're my bitch.</blockquote>


Just to make things clear - I'll never be your bitch.



I understand your way of thinking and I think it's right. The fact that we do transaction over the Internet makes it more impersonal.</blockquote>


Lol. I'm sure you won't. Wasn't directed at you, but I'm sure you know that.



And you're right, so much manipulation, insider trading etc goes on that people get taken advantage of all the time. If transactions were done face to face, I'm sure you can learn some tells by looking at the person in the eye to decide if they are taking advantage of you or not.
 
Whoa! Did anyone check out the volatility and volume on the options on SKF today and yesterday? Wow is all I can say. I will have to look into this some more. This could be an extremely risky bet, but a highly rewarding one. Here everyone is warning about risk of a 2X ETF, and I am thinking of how taking 10X the risk on a 2X the risk ETF.



Nevermind, please don't take any of my hare brained ideas seriously. You can now return to your normally scheduled programming of less nutty trading ideas.
 
[quote author="graphrix" date=1232165749]Whoa! Did anyone check out the volatility and volume on the options on SKF today and yesterday? Wow is all I can say. I will have to look into this some more. This could be an extremely risky bet, but a highly rewarding one. Here everyone is warning about risk of a 2X ETF, and I am thinking of how taking 10X the risk on a 2X the risk ETF.



Nevermind, please don't take any of my hare brained ideas seriously. You can now return to your normally scheduled programming of less nutty trading ideas.</blockquote>


Maybe it's just me, but personally I get nervous when two things happen simultaneously

1) People everywhere start talking about a particular investment. Especially people not versed in the instrument

2) You get wild swings up and down in a short time



For the record, I went long in both SRS and SKF last week. I was stopped out on the first trip down yesterday and have NO interest in either instrument until I see people lose interest in both instruments.
 
[quote author="graphrix" date=1232165749]Whoa! Did anyone check out the volatility and volume on the options on SKF today and yesterday? Wow is all I can say. I will have to look into this some more. This could be an extremely risky bet, but a highly rewarding one. Here everyone is warning about risk of a 2X ETF, and I am thinking of how taking 10X the risk on a 2X the risk ETF.



Nevermind, please don't take any of my hare brained ideas seriously. You can now return to your normally scheduled programming of less nutty trading ideas.</blockquote>
Hahaha...you can always juice up your returns by playing with options on the SKF during the day if you got the balls.
 
If volatily kills return un leveraged ETFs, would someone make almost guaranteed profit by shorting them? Seriously, someone could short DIG and DUG at the same time and make guaranteed return. The return would be neutral, but the leveraged would cause both to lose value over time, so you automatically gain.
 
[quote author="Roo" date=1232172045]If volatily kills return un leveraged ETFs, would someone make almost guaranteed profit by shorting them? Seriously, someone could short DIG and DUG at the same time and make guaranteed return. The return would be neutral, but the leveraged would cause both to lose value over time, so you automatically gain.</blockquote>


its an interesting idea although would get quickly arb'd out tomorrow... or maybe not. no one can say but you're welcome to try. interestingly enough, last month there was the idea floating around that these etfs were causing huge momentum in the last hour of the trading day (dog chasing tail phenomenom). it seemed to be occurring right on schedule every day for at least 2 wks. i was tempted to put some money on the trade myself but then the commentary i posted above hit the newswires. few days later wsj posted a <a href="http://www.bestwaytoinvest.com/stories/wall-street-journal-are-etfs-driving-late-day-turns">piece about leveraged etfs and volatility</a>. that day the phenomenom didn't occur and since then it's been random.



just looking at these charts tells me the leveraged etfs are broken. so it's not even so much an issue of risk related to the amt of leverage as it is straight-up underperformance risk. my opinion is if you can't rely on an instrument to perform as expected then you should stay away period.



<a href="http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2Mmi00"><img src="http://www.postimage.org/Pq2Mmi00.jpg" alt="" /></a>



<a href="http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV2W23oJ"><img src="http://www.postimage.org/aV2W23oJ.jpg" alt="" /></a>
 
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