Should we let our son cry it out?

R

roundcorners_IHB

New member
I wrote about this before, at around month 4; but now we have just about enough! Our son is approaching six month on the 8th. We are tired, he is getting so heavy and his sleep is actually getting worse.



His night time sleep has always been the best. He can go at least one night out of the week without waking up. We feed him at around 6:45; and start soothing him around 7pm. He usually goes down without a fight and would sleep until 6am. 2-3 nights out of the week he would wake up once; and the other 2-3 nights he would wake up more than once.



The day time sleep is what is killing us! Now we have been trying the Weissbluth method from Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child. He recommends the child not be awake more than 2-3 hours in the day, and recommend three naps, morning, early-afternoon and late afternoon. As best as we can remember, he has NEVER kept a perfect day. He fights EVERY nap time with protest crying. Lately as soon as he goes down, the crying would start almost 10-15 minutes later. I would sooth again, holding, rocking, jiggling, shushing and patting, sometimes for hours!



Let me say that he absolutely need every nap; he just looks so tire and grumpy, and hyper when he misses one nap. The worst case days are when his naps get consistently shorter and shorter where by the end of day, he is inconsolable from the protest crying, mixed in with grumpy crying. Although not necessary correlated, his day time sleep usually affects his night time sleep. The better he sleeps during the day the better at night.



Up to this point, we have not wanted to let him cry it out. We understand that babies can?t self-sooth under a certain age. But now we might consider that an option. Weissbluth does not rule out crying it out; and some of you guys mention the Ferber Method. Here is what I understand that method to be: 1) Provide identical sleep ritual. 2) Put the baby down awake, tired but not asleep. 3) If protest, make brief appearances at increasing intervals (add five minutes each time).



What are your experiences? Any alternatives! HELP?
 
RC - have you checked to see if he's teething and that could be irritating him? We went through a hard time in the 6th month only to discover the first little tooth popping through. If so, try Hyland's teething tablets. They are awesome! -- miracle in a bottle, I swear. Since we don't know your baby it would be difficult to say why he is fussing. You will know his cries and whether he is in pain, just protesting, etc. There could be a million different things. Does he take a pacifier? Have you tried one?... or he could be nursed to sleep. Is he getting enough to eat before bed? Are you on rice cereal, fruits or veggies? How long are his naps in the daytime? Have you tried transitioning him to shorter naps so he will sleep longer at night? Having been through this twice, I'll just say that every baby is really different. What worked with my first, did not work with my second and vice versa. Would need more info. Where is mommy during these times? If nothing else is working, try the secret weapons! (Is this a housing blog or baby blog? I'm confused. lol)
 
Thanks for responding Socal on a Sat night? As far as we can tell he is not teething yet. I?ve reached in there and there are not bumps yet. I read somewhere that teething should not affect sleep. I imagine it would be uncomfortable, and I?ll look a into the tablets. I?m sure his teeth are coming in soon as he is smacking his lips like great-gradma.



I agree every baby is different. Let?s just say he?s an extreme extrovert. The wife and I were afraid of this. He loves people, and Panda (we went for a walk today) can also confirm just how cute he is! So he is running the show. Sometimes we just give up, he wins and gets to stay up. He never really likes the pacifier; which is kind of good as it might be hard habit to break.



My wife nurses in the morning and most day time feedings. He usually eats alright; my wife even gets to pump once or twice. We?ve started him on the rice cereal, but mostly single grain oatmeal. I give him breast milk at night for his final feeding; he?s up to 7oz now. No fruits or veggies yet, should we?



The times he takes an hour or longer naps are great. He?s like a different baby. Really happy, not that he doesn?t smile all the time; it?s just that he is calmer and less irritable. What?s the secret weapon? Nanny?
 
Socal... what was your boys day time nap schedule at 6 month old... I'm not sure if you can remember? Was there a schedule or how rigid was it?
 
Haha. No, I meant your wife has the secret weapons. You could try nursing him to sleep if nothing else is working. You said she's nursing in the morning and most day time feedings. Maybe there is a correlation to why he doesn't have trouble going down for a nap. Can she nurse him to sleep at night? That was our saving grace for the first 6-9 months or so. It is great for them to be a self-soother too. I think having a baby use an orthodontic pacifier or their thumb helps tremendously. My first had his thumb and was content. With my second, he did not have a pacifier he liked & would cry, cry, cry so we got a sample pack that had a variety to try. We went through them all before we found a hit. I recommend silicone. The latex really don't smell good when they're wet -- like a balloon, and they tear more easily. Lots of brands have orthodontic kinds now.



Sorry, I shouldn't give any advice on when to start the fruits and veggies. You'll have to talk to your doctor. Some will say to start at 6 months, others say to delay until 9 mo. and others say to breastfeed exclusively as long as you can. The opinion varies greatly and may depend on other factors.



The teething will be uncomfortable before the teeth appear. Baby teeth have something called mamelons. They are sharp, scalloped-looking shapes on the edge of the teeth and will cause pressure on the gums. After two kids, I'd have to disagree with whomever said it doesn't affect sleep. I think discomfort affects everyone's sleep. My two would pass out after getting the Hyland's tablet. The bottle even has a warning not to be alarmed if the child is knocked out after receiving the tablet... it's not the tablet causing it - it's the relief from the pain. :)



Good luck. Let us know how it goes.
 
Sorry to hear about the struggle and the frustration you guys are experiencing. I know there are different schools out there on this, but I would highly advise against letting your baby "cry it out" at this age. I think you should try all you can to sooth him until at least 1 year old (I've even heard until 18-24 months - it wouldn't hurt to be extra cautious). I don't know much about the methods you mentioned, but I wouldn't follow something that hasn't been working for me regardless of all the buzz. I think you guys should still be thankful that your son has developed a good night-time sleep pattern, and that's the main thing as this age. As SoCal mentioned, other issues such as teething or food allergies (as you should be beginning to try out other foods around this age) may be causing crankiness, but since your kid is having a good sleep at night, I doubt that would be the case here. It's an unfortunate fact of parenting that after around 6 month, the day-time sleep of kids generally decreases and soon, the best you can reasonably expect from them will be a 2-3 hour nap time in the afternoon. You can always run it by your doctor to make sure though. Don?t let this prevent you from enjoying your baby and good luck!
 
I have to agree that they are all 100% different. At 6 months my son took two naps. He'd wake in the morning about 7:00am and go down for a 2 hour nap at about 10:00am. He would then nap again for two hours around 3:00. My husband would stay up with him until about 10:00pm. He slept through the night almost every night beginning at 5 months (every now and then starting at 3 months). I remember waking up at 6:00 am one morning in a complete panic because I had actually slept through the night, the thought that he was either gone or had died in his sleep was suffocating me, of course it only lasted a few seconds when I turned to the cradle next to our bed and saw him sleeping soundly. We were actually huge believers in swaddling and he was swaddled until 8 months. I never read about the method you have used but I did always naturally recognize the need for frequent sleep, so it makes sense. He was the child that the books describe as the "angel child". On the other hand, my daughter never once slept through the night until 9 months but she slept through the night almost exclusively from that point on. My son had a very specific routine that evolved slowly over time. He would fall asleep during a feeding at about 7 months and I'd put him down for the night from there. When he stopped falling asleep during a feeding, I'd just rock him until he fell asleep. When that stopped working, I just put him down and talked to him for a bit while he fell asleep. Pretty soon I could just put him down after rocking him and leave. My daughter learned to cry it out a bit, but never more than 15 minutes when going down at night. I have to admit that after a while, for survival's sake (we both work full-time and leave the house at 7:00 am), she had to cry it out at night for lengths of time that were unknown to us (we ended up turning on our house fan to drown it out, I know that sounds terrible). Both kids are excellent sleepers now. The morning nap disappeared at about 14 months, the afternoon nap at 2 1/2 years for my son. My daughter's morning nap disappeared at 1 1/2 years and the afternoon nap at 3 1/2 years. I think when the morning nap starts pushing the afternoon nap so late that bedtime is difficult, the morning nap disappears. With one nap, when bedtime starts getting later and more difficult, the afternoon nap disappears. I have to say that trying to do something that is prescribed by one book and stick to it seems kind of ridiculous to me. You take a lot of cues from your child and combine the lessons from various sources. It's very wise of you to ask others, compare notes, observe your own child and don't stress. Crying it out isn't a bad thing, but I always found that when it lasts too long, the child gets so frenzied and I don't think that's good. However, I fully admit that we let out daughter cry it out almost endlessly some nights because it just became non-negotiable for us, we didn't want to lose our jobs due to lack of sleep. She learned to sleep through the night. Both of our kids slept 11-13 hours a night as toddlers and we are the only family I know who had children this age who actually got uninterrupted sleep almost every night. Your goal is to NOT be the majority of parents I know who deal with nightly interruptions from their children. The transition from the crib will be much easier if they are already used to NOT sleeping in your bed. Keep in mind the goal, a child that is independent and can sleep through the night, it's closer than you think.



An added thought: Sleep patterns in babies and toddlers change so frequently, you should never really get too frustrated with the current stage. It will change soon (and provide other challenges). Go with the flow, but insist that your kids learn to sleep in their own beds. My own rule once they transitioned to a bed was that they could never sleep with us two nights in a row. This slowed the pattern that many children and parents fall into because when you are so tired, you end up just saying "yes". It might sound like they slept with us a lot, they didn't. There's something about a child knowing that they CAN'T sleep with you tonight that helps them understand that it isn't a necessity. Our kids wake up and want to sleep with us about once every 2-3 weeks now. I'm sure it sounds like I'm getting way ahead of where you are now, but you will blink and you'll be dealing with these issues.
 
Man... this is great thread. I'm actually being serious, and I know that it is late and at this hour it is very difficult to believe crackercakes is serious.



I do have a questions though... have you all tried to discuss with your child what has been discussed on <a href="http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/">Calculated Risk</a>? What about discussing regression models and the flaws in data points that can effect the models? I know... not serious... but it should bore the hell out of most people. If I ever breed... do you think this will help make them sleep, or will it help them have a better API score at Foothill compared to Irvine schools? Slightly serious. Also, do you think that parents who have completely different sleep patterns will help with child sleep patterns. I.E. I am awake at weird hours, but my SO is in bed at a normal time and awakes at a normal time. Really serious here.



And really... I can't thank all you parents enough to make me seriously think about what bringing a child into this world is like. Very serious here.
 
I'm a huge Weisbluth fan.



My kids do not respond to the gentler methods of learning how to sleep. They are quite sociable and love hanging out with their parents. We've tried the kinder, gentler methods. My husband who has infinite patience, and who hates the crying out method, would pat them and rock them for hours. It simply did not work. The more he did it, the more they would require in terms of soothing the next day. The only way to teach them what nap time is for, was to let them cry it out.



My usual routine is to get them in their bedroom about 15 minutes before the 2 hour mark, read to them a couple of books, b-feed them, and then put them in their beds.



For the first, I just walked out after putting her in her bed. She responsed beautifully...in two days she figured it out, that mommy wasn't coming back so she might as well sleep. Perfect textbook easy sleeper. Never really had any problems again.



For the second child, she needed more soothing. After nursing, I had to pat her on her back for 5-10 minutes to help her go to sleep. Then I would sneak out of the room. Most times, she'd pop up again within 5 minutes and be crying.



But once I leave the room, that's it. I don't re-enter for one hour if they start crying before the hour is up, or until they wake up.



For my stubborn second child, it would usually take 4-5 days of this before settling down and accepting that crying wouldn't get her anywhere. Drove us crazy because we had to go through this ritual at least once a month, because there was always a crazy weekend that would throw her off her regular sleep schedule or a tooth that was coming out that would mess up the sleep schedule. (If a tooth was coming in, naptimes would be shorter, and the soothe-to-sleep period would get longer).



Because I had been so used to an easy first baby, it took a long time for me to accept that my second baby was never going to be like the first baby. First baby, I virtuously avoided motrin/tylenol for teething. Baby seemed fine. Second baby, the minute I figure out she is teething, she gets motrin and tylenol, alternated, every four hours. Her doses are timed so that she gets it at least 30 minutes before each naptime/bedtime -- enough time for it to kick in before the scheduled nap/bedtime. Otherwise, no one gets any rest. She was just so sensitive to the pain. She could not fall asleep or stay asleep unless she had the meds. Poor baby.



The second difference that also took us a while to figure out is that she does not like to be hot when she sleeps. I'm always freezing cold, so I always try to bundle up the kids. One night my husband was in charge of the baby, dressed her only in a onesie, and she slept 7 hours straight. Totally unheard of for her. After that, we always tried to dress her lightly and to run the air-conditioning to help her sleep. This helped a lot. But this got expensive for us.



Then we invested in a window fan. Oh. My. Goodness. The window fan has been my salvation. The room is finally cold enough for her satisfaction, and we no longer have to air condition the whole house. And I no longer have to stay in the room or pat her to sleep. (I had to wait in the room until she fell asleep because she would get up every time she heard me trying to sneak out). No more naptime fights. Just flip on the fan, nurse her, put her in the crib, then walk of the room. Because the fan is just loud enough, she doesn't hear me creeping out or hear the door close. I love my window fan.



Now, if she doesn't go down immediately after going through the routine, it just means that she didn't drink enough milk before going down. So now I have no problems going back into the room if I hear her cry. I just nurse her again, pop her back in the crib, and she's fine.



It really does take forever and a lot of experimenting to figure out what works best for each child. For some kids, the 2 hour awake period is too long: they need their nap sooner. Other kids, the 2 hour awake period is too short: they need to run around some more. For us, I figured out that I could not run errands between the first and second nap. if i had her in the car at all during that time, even if I got back home in time for her usual naptime, forget it. Naptime would not happen.



Best of luck to you and your wife!
 
[quote author="graphrix" date=1249233345]If I ever breed... do you think this will help make them sleep, or will it help them have a better API score at Foothill compared to Irvine schools? </blockquote>


Couldn't hurt.



[quote author="graphrix" date=1249233345] Also, do you think that parents who have completely different sleep patterns will help with child sleep patterns. I.E. I am awake at weird hours, but my SO is in bed at a normal time and awakes at a normal time. </blockquote>


Probably would be an advantage. You'll have a better tag team system that way without messing up anyone's sleep schedule too much. Your SO could sleep her normal schedule, but if the child wakes up in the middle of the night, you could attend to her.
 
Tip: Your kids (even when infants) have the same IQ that you do, and are just as smart as you but lack experience. They are smart enough to try and train you while you are trying to train them ... keep that in mind as you figure out what to do ... think about the problem from both your perspective and theirs, and what you might try if you were them to get what you want.



But also, be open to different motivations they might have (ie. what's bothering them? boredom? hunger? teething? indigestion? something else? possible medical problem like ear infection to check with the doctor?) ... when you find what's motivating them, then you can use your experience to devise a good solution that works for both of you and makes you both happy in the long run.
 
Although many parents believe it's the goal to achieve independence for their child (such as in the way of night-time sleep independence), there is a huge trend towards "Attachment Parenting" going on right now, especially among upper-middle class folks. Primarily, attachment parenting means your priorities are to reinforce an emotional bond with your child, building a strong bond of trust. They prefer co-sleeping, baby-wearing and extended breastfeeding.



This is much different from generations past when doctors advised against giving "too much" attention to the child with the belief that you would "spoil" them. This was the same period when a Karo syrup concoction was used as a baby formula and breastfeeding was considered "uncivilized". In much more recent times, we have seen the "Back To Sleep" campaign, advising it is safest for the baby to rest on his back until he is old enough to roll over on his own and lift his head. This is to prevent SIDS (sudden infant death syndrome.) Now, with the popularizing of slings and Snuglis, co-sleeping wedges and bed-side bassinets, a new generation of cloth diapers on the market, and the realized benefits that breastfeeding has for the mother and child, we are seeing parenting styles come full-circle.



RC - after gathering info... and trial & error... you may find yourself in one camp or another. The advice you receive from others will depend on which generation they are from and the popularized beliefs from that time period as well as their capabilities and priorities. I found my own parenting styles change just between two children and if I had to do it again, I'm sure I would do some things differently.
 
Good responses everyone.. thank you so much! ok.. so far so good today! I put him down after a brisk walk around Woodbury this morning. He woke up around 6:45, he fed, played a little and we walked from 7:30-8:30... I started winding him down and put him down awake. I walked out and he started crying, but only for about 12 minutes. He fell asleep! We can tell from his cries that he was so tired.. He only slept for 35 minutes though... which was ok, but not long enough. The book said to get him up even after 30 minutes because, he's recharged, and could cry for an hour or more if you left him along; and... that will affect his next nap, we just have to put him down earlier next time...



We got ready for church, left here about 10:25 (totally late, church starts 10:15); I stayed with him, in child-care, he did great, got stimulated, played. We could see the look on his face about an hour later 11:30. We gotta go! Drove home, and I just sooth him briefly and put him down. He protested now for about 35 minutes... he's been quiet for about 30 minutes now... the wife and I are just praying that he'll be down for a while...! (TIP: Friends are great to talk/pray with to out in the patio when the baby is crying in our IAC one-bedroom!)
 
Hey, RC - do you have an Exercauser or something like it? Any play-station toy with a seat in it is awesome. Mine used to wear themselves out. The hour long walk is great - but remember, you're the one doing the walking, not him. :)
 
[quote author="SoCal78" date=1249268102]Hey, RC - do you have an Exercauser or something like it? Any play-station toy with a seat in it is awesome. Mine used to wear themselves out. The hour long walk is great - but remember, you're the one doing the walking, not him. :)</blockquote>


the only problem with attachment parenting we came to find out is that he is approaching 20 lbs... and I can't for the life of me figure out all these bjorns, slings and snugglies.. we must have like 5 of them around here, (he can't stand it for more than 5 minutes)... plus although our lives are "over" for now.. we gotta have some sort of independence... funny thing you mention the Exercauser,, yeah, he love it today at church! Gotta look into that too... he totally loved it... going to church today had a totally different meaning; church was purely for stimulation, then rush back home... usually we stay there and he typically gets a feeding in the nursing moms room or falls asleep in the car seat but... I didn't even get to catch a glimpse of the message :(
 
Do some observations of the parents and children of the parents who are 100% believers in attachment parenting. I only know two sets of these parents. Both of their children have had extreme difficulty becoming social and adapting to preschool. I totally blame the parents, the similarities in these two children (who don't know each other) is amazing. I hate to say it but they are the most needy and bratty children I know. Not necessarily knocking it because of my limited experience, just a word of warning.
 
[quote author="roundcorners" date=1249269036] I didn't even get to catch a glimpse of the message :(</blockquote>


Ha ha ha. Me too. I did get to watch the Veggietales DVD in the nursery though. My take-away for the day was "If you try to get even with a bully, you become a bully yourself." I told this to my husband, and he told me, "Funny, that's what the sermon was about too!"
 
[quote author="tmare" date=1249274885]Do some observations of the parents and children of the parents who are 100% believers in attachment parenting. I only know two sets of these parents. Both of their children have had extreme difficulty becoming social and adapting to preschool. I totally blame the parents, the similarities in these two children (who don't know each other) is amazing. I hate to say it but they are the most needy and bratty children I know. Not necessarily knocking it because of my limited experience, just a word of warning.</blockquote>


My friend's son is bratty. When he was a baby, his mom would make him cry it out until he got so worked up he would vomit in his crib. :-( She could be blamed, but I wouldn't point the finger. I'm sure there are brats whose parents used attachment parenting too. Imho, discipline and setting boundaries is pretty unrelated to either style. When you're dealing with a newborn, or a 6 mo. old baby like roundcorners, it is different than when they are 3 years old. Picking up your infant when he cries is not the same thing as letting your 5 year old eat candy for dinner. Sort of like the spanking / non-spanking debate. Brats can come out of each discipline style... but neither one applies to infant care.
 
I don't know anything about these differing methods and such. I learned by experience and winging it, and all my four kids seemed to have survived my mothering. I was bad though in that I would give my babies a bottle and rock them to sleep until they were about one. After that....as for the crying it out method, I did follow that to an extent. But it seemed like that only lasted for a week, and then the babies would just go down perfectly for me, maybe just a whimper once in a while. But usually they just knew the routine and would gladly lay down and drink their bottle and go to sleep.



Just a couple things I would recommend:



1. Use these books as a guideline, but not necessarily the rule.

2. My son had horrible colic as a baby, so we would have to drive him around in the car to get him to sleep. Not saying your baby has colic, just something to consider.

3. My other son had acid reflux as a baby - he was prescribed prevacid to help relieve the pain.

4. I have always lived by what I call the "Bath Method" at night. I give my baby a nice bath with lavender baby bath for relaxation. It puts him in the right mood to sleep.

5. I live by the "Pool Method" during the day. I take my baby for a nice late morning swim, just in time for his nap when we get home.



Best of luck - like all things, this shall pass.
 
I thought I should add... before it sounds like I am in some way biased to attachment parenting -- I am actually not. My parenting was more moderate. Cosleeping, I did not. (Aside from a short nap in the daytime.) Baby-wearing I also tried just like you, RC and my boys were back-breakers too so it was short-lived. They were almost 10 lbs. at birth. Breastfeeding, I'm a big advocate of and did do as long as I could. That's not to say I believe in extended bfd'ing at a year or 2 yrs ++. I'm not a personal believer in that. Did we cry it out? Sometimes. I was attentive to the cry. If it was a slow, tired cry then yes. If it was high-pitched and stressed, then no. If it was angry then maybe. None of this was done at a newborn age. Closer to a year. My first son started sleeping 12 hours since he was 4 weeks old! I'd have to wake him up to eat. My second son, was the complete opposite. I am lucky to have had a great husband who was a big help in those long, sleepless nights. I understand not everybody has that and has to choose between missed sleep or cry it out. I really like the idea of finding ways to let the baby self-soothe. If they can form at attachment to a thumb, pacifier, blanket, or stuffed toy (when it's age-appropriate) then that takes some of the burden away from mom & dad to have to be the security blanket. Neither one slept in our bed so it was never an issue. In the beginning, I kept a bassinet right next to my side because I was breastfeeding all the time. Then after they could get up on their elbows, they were moved to a crib in another room. I felt this was a great way to transition (with the bassinet). They are 3 and 6 and we have no sleep issues except my oldest still sleeps 12 hours + - he sleeps like a log. My youngest still doesn't need as much sleep and will be good to go after 6 hours. They are just different. If I had to do it again, I would kept it much the same (staying in tune with the baby yet trying to keep a good routine in place) but probably would have done more natural parenting, more attachment, cloth diapers (and I'm still racked with guilt over choosing circumcisions. Don't laugh - sometimes I still cry about it! I'll never know if I made the right choice or not.) Moms live with guilt, I guess!
 
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