Recirculation pump systems w/ Tankless Water Heaters

Hi all!

Post COE installing recirculation pump systems for tankless water heaters. Was wondering if anyone has installed one of these (contractor or DIY)?

Apparently, this will help with eliminating the wait for hot water, right now just wasting a lot of water waiting for it to go hot <sigh>.

Wondering if anyone has these, how well do they work, and what retrofit work is required (DIY even an option?). I understand that it requires a return loop to be installed which sounds like going through some walls and plumbing <argh>.

Thanks!
 
Actually not that difficult, but you do need a power outlet nearby.  Usually these are installed in the furthest bathroom from the heater under one of the sinks.  I believe most builders use this or something very similar:

http://www.gothotwater.com/

See diagram below:

Exisisting%20Homes%2051513.jpg
 
Quick Update:

Got the ACT D'mand Pump STS-02T which is the exact same pump the builder installs. However, the builder wanted to charge $2200+ for the pump and installation. Online found it for $540 (w/ pre-fab kit).

You need an outlet under the sink unless you just want to run wires out of your cabinets. I elected to install under the kitchen sink since there is already a plug there plus it's one of our last fixtures in the house even though they suggest installing in the master.

Just followed the instructions plus some youtube videos. It's a relative manageable DIY project taking an afternoon. How easy? This was my first plumbing project :).

I also got the wireless kit for $45 with a remote, extra remotes are $19. Idea is to use the remotes in all the bathrooms and where you want instant hot water (laundry).

Works really well and very happy. Before we wound fill 5 gallon buckets waiting for hot water, now we just hit a button and the pump moves the cold water from the hot line into the cold line (not wasting any water) and then shuts off once there is hot water. Before we had to wait like 3-4 minutes, now it's less than 10 seconds with no wasted water. Yeah! Plus the wife is so happy now :).

I highly recommend this for people doing tankless in large houses (3000+ sqft). It's summer so the hot water lines don't cool as fast but during winter you will be waiting for hot water for A WHILE (pouring water <money> down the drain). It's not only showers but also washing dishes and doing laundry. With the price of water, the cost will pay for itself in a couple years.

I ordered online at tanklesskings (which was the cheapest) but there's other online vendors just do a search.

Also there are other recirculation pump which are much cheaper (1/3 the cost) like the chilipepper but they are really loud, like a 747 taking off under you sink. The ACT D'mand is fairly quiet and sounds like a dishwasher pump going off, really not that bad. Plus it was used by the builder so rather install something I know that works.

One tip if you're going with the ACT D'mand pump, the 70 is for <2500 sqft and the 02 is for >2500 sqft. They sell the pump by itself or the pump plus the pre-fab kit. BUY the one with the pre-fab kit it includes all the parts you need. I only ordered the pump thinking I could get the parts cheaper. However, it's all custom parts. I even talked to Ferguson Plumbing supplies and they suggested I get the custom parts direct from manufacturer. Luckily ACT is local in Costa Mesa so was able to pick-up the hook-up kit for $81 directly at their office.

Save yourself the trouble and order the pumps WITH the pre-fab kits (custom brass Ts and flex tubes).

All in all, it's a relatively inexpensive upgrade that you can DIY and will make living in your new big brand new house more enjoyable! :).

Enjoy and hope this helps other new homeowners that hate wasting water waiting for the hot water.
 
I thought I needed a water circulator because I would have to wait a couple of minutes for water to turn hot, but have found the real solution. Brand new homes have this water conserver washer in the shower heads. This is the reason why water pressure can sometimes be really weak. So I took the washer out myself (took 2 mins). Now the hot water comes within 20 seconds. Problem solved!

To remove washer:
-Remove shower head using pliars
-Remove little round plastic washer in the middle of shower head using needle nose pliars
-Screw back shower head

 
dealcatcher said:
I thought I needed a water circulator because I would have to wait a couple of minutes for water to turn hot, but have found the real solution. Brand new homes have this water conserver washer in the shower heads. This is the reason why water pressure can sometimes be really weak. So I took the washer out myself (took 2 mins). Now the hot water comes within 20 seconds. Problem solved!

To remove washer:
-Remove shower head using pliars
-Remove little round plastic washer in the middle of shower head using needle nose pliars
-Screw back shower head

How does that shorten the heating time to my sink?
 
broda said:
dealcatcher said:
I thought I needed a water circulator because I would have to wait a couple of minutes for water to turn hot, but have found the real solution. Brand new homes have this water conserver washer in the shower heads. This is the reason why water pressure can sometimes be really weak. So I took the washer out myself (took 2 mins). Now the hot water comes within 20 seconds. Problem solved!

To remove washer:
-Remove shower head using pliars
-Remove little round plastic washer in the middle of shower head using needle nose pliars
-Screw back shower head

How does that shorten the heating time to my sink?

pure speculation, but you get to WASTE more water more quickly, so it allows the cold water in the pipes to be cleared out quicker....????
 
Irvine_RC said:
broda said:
dealcatcher said:
I thought I needed a water circulator because I would have to wait a couple of minutes for water to turn hot, but have found the real solution. Brand new homes have this water conserver washer in the shower heads. This is the reason why water pressure can sometimes be really weak. So I took the washer out myself (took 2 mins). Now the hot water comes within 20 seconds. Problem solved!

To remove washer:
-Remove shower head using pliars
-Remove little round plastic washer in the middle of shower head using needle nose pliars
-Screw back shower head



How does that shorten the heating time to my sink?

pure speculation, but you get to WASTE more water more quickly, so it allows the cold water in the pipes to be cleared out quicker....????

Ahhh...so I unrestrict my shower...turn it on...waste the water faster to get my sink water warm.  GENIUS!
 
Sounds like what you're really buying is convenience and time savings.  Maybe it's different there, but for me the variable cost of water is around $2 for 750 gallons.  You can fill a LOT of 5-gallon buckets for $540, and on top of that a recirculator wastes just a bit more energy by heating the entire water line each time any faucet in the house is turned on.  But if you're saving hours each month (and the wife is happy!), then it's well worth it.
 
Irvine_RC said:
broda said:
dealcatcher said:
I thought I needed a water circulator because I would have to wait a couple of minutes for water to turn hot, but have found the real solution. Brand new homes have this water conserver washer in the shower heads. This is the reason why water pressure can sometimes be really weak. So I took the washer out myself (took 2 mins). Now the hot water comes within 20 seconds. Problem solved!

To remove washer:
-Remove shower head using pliars
-Remove little round plastic washer in the middle of shower head using needle nose pliars
-Screw back shower head

How does that shorten the heating time to my sink?

pure speculation, but you get to WASTE more water more quickly, so it allows the cold water in the pipes to be cleared out quicker....????

Never said this was a solution for the sink. It's a solution for the shower. : )
 
dealcatcher said:
Irvine_RC said:
broda said:
dealcatcher said:
I thought I needed a water circulator because I would have to wait a couple of minutes for water to turn hot, but have found the real solution. Brand new homes have this water conserver washer in the shower heads. This is the reason why water pressure can sometimes be really weak. So I took the washer out myself (took 2 mins). Now the hot water comes within 20 seconds. Problem solved!

To remove washer:
-Remove shower head using pliars
-Remove little round plastic washer in the middle of shower head using needle nose pliars
-Screw back shower head

How does that shorten the heating time to my sink?

pure speculation, but you get to WASTE more water more quickly, so it allows the cold water in the pipes to be cleared out quicker....????

Never said this was a solution for the sink. It's a solution for the shower. : )

Regarding the showers, the heads that are used by the builders I also saw the same kohler shower heads in all the new communities opening up this weekend, have a very distributed spray. Since this fans out the water it makes the hot water "less hot". To compare run your facet in your tub and you can feel the difference.

One solution is to increase the max temp on your tankless. Read the manual and you can override it to up to 140 degrees. This will help make those shower heads be HOT. CAUTION: At 140 you can also cause serious burns so have to be careful when running hot water straight from the faucets.

This of course doesn't shorten the time duration of getting hot water, that needs a pump :).

 
daedalus said:
Sounds like what you're really buying is convenience and time savings.  Maybe it's different there, but for me the variable cost of water is around $2 for 750 gallons.  You can fill a LOT of 5-gallon buckets for $540, and on top of that a recirculator wastes just a bit more energy by heating the entire water line each time any faucet in the house is turned on.  But if you're saving hours each month (and the wife is happy!), then it's well worth it.

Agree,

time = money plus happy wife = happy life which is priceless! :)
 
Great timing - I just found/joined this forum and came to ask about this topic.  Our house is about 4000 ft^2 and the master bath is as far as possible from the water heater in the garage.  I'll have to look into the re-circulator product.  I was just thinking of putting in a local, tankless heater in the back of the house.

On a related topic, after 12 years, I'm really getting sick of all the mineral stains and clogging from the hard water around here.  Many years ago I had a house with a water softener and really hated that.  Always felt slimy after taking a shower.  Has anyone put in water softeners?  Are they better these days?  Any good brands?

Thanks!

David
 
davidr said:
Great timing - I just found/joined this forum and came to ask about this topic.  Our house is about 4000 ft^2 and the master bath is as far as possible from the water heater in the garage.  I'll have to look into the re-circulator product.  I was just thinking of putting in a local, tankless heater in the back of the house.

They are definitely worth it in my opinion especially if you like taking hot showers and don't want to wait. You're paying for convenience.

Ideally, you install it in the master but that requires a new outlet to get installed. We did it in the kitchen which helps when doing dishes. Still works to reduce the hot water time so happy.

davidr said:
On a related topic, after 12 years, I'm really getting sick of all the mineral stains and clogging from the hard water around here.  Many years ago I had a house with a water softener and really hated that.  Always felt slimy after taking a shower.  Has anyone put in water softeners?  Are they better these days?  Any good brands?

Thanks!

David

May want to start a new topic to get more responses. Several of my neighbors have it but did it through the builder. Think it's just something you get use to. The slimy feeling is due to the "softness" of the water so don't think that will be any different from before, instead you just get use to it.

Some issues my neighbors ran into w/ soft water. When installing you should be aware of your plumbing setup. Your outside water bibs should have regular water but sometimes they are connected to the central house so what ends up is you'll be using expensive soft water to water your garden which is not good for your plants/gardens. Also shouldn't drink soft water straight so need to install water filters or go bottle.

To us the hard water stains on the glass door is our major issue. But we're using a squeegee blade like the ones used to dry cars. (Costco sells the CA duster w/ a drying blade package). You can use the duster on the car and then use the blade to while down your shower glasss after you are done.

Yes, you need to be discipline but it's not that "hard" :). Water softener think are best suited for people that have real sensitive skin. It's a real expensive way to get rid of hard water stains.

To get rid of baked in hard water stains you need to use Bar Keepers Friend (Walmart/HD/Lowes) works wonders. It is slightly acidic which you need to dissolve the mineral deposits.

Best of luck!


 
Don't know if PenguinOrange is still around but how does this pump work exactly?

From what I've read on their side it pumps out the cold water to make the hot water travel through pipes but it says it pumps the cold water back into the cold pipes. Does that cause problems? There is usually already cold water in that pipe so pumping more back doesn't cause a pipe to burst?
 
This is a great and informic topic on tankless water heaters. I just received a quote of $1800 and a 10 year warranty from Peter @ P-ECO Plumbing - 949-600-0183. 

I am less of a DIY type of person and more of a hire-a-seasoned contractor.  JUst called a P-Eco since he had fixed some of my pipes and garbage disposal in the past. 

 
irvinehomeowner said:
Don't know if PenguinOrange is still around but how does this pump work exactly?

From what I've read on their side it pumps out the cold water to make the hot water travel through pipes but it says it pumps the cold water back into the cold pipes. Does that cause problems? There is usually already cold water in that pipe so pumping more back doesn't cause a pipe to burst?
Water in the pipes is already at maybe 80psi pressure.  The pipes can take at least 150-200psi (probably more, I can't recall but it depends on pipe type and joint type).  So the pump just needs to create some pressure differential across a newly plumbed pathway to move water around, and push water from the hot line into the cold line.  There is no change in water volume within the water system of the house so not much risk of pipe failure.  Any pressure changes will be small and short-lived.
 
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