Officially a 'depression'

Hormiguero_IHB

New member
I think we can go ahead and use that term without fear of seeming excessively dramatic.



I remember, a decade or so ago, looking at the commodity price charts in the mural inside Coit Tower. I never thought we would see it in our day of funny money - at least our xerox money would successfully prevent that kind of a total meltdown!



I was wrong, very wrong. The part of me that believes in a God prays for everyone, and hopes that in our struggles to maintain a nice life for our families in the coming years, the frustration at being dealt such a rotten hand by the preceding generations doesn't limit our ability to enjoy what material success we're lucky enough to experience.
 
<blockquote>I was wrong, very wrong. The part of me that believes in a God prays for everyone, and hopes that in our struggles to maintain a nice life for our families in the coming years, the frustration at being dealt such a rotten hand by the preceding generations doesn't limit our ability to enjoy what material success we're lucky enough to experience.</blockquote>


God gave us everything we wanted. 100x more than other nations. Yet we still bitched and moaned. We still complained how we don't have this and that. Don't you think God is more worried about the dying kids in Africa? vs. whether or not we will have a regular stake tonight or a filet mignon? I wouldn't be suprised if God looked at America and gave it the middle finger and left...
 
Are you kidding?!? The hand we have been dealt is fine. We have many many working years ahead of us, during which we will be able to invest are hard-earned dollars in a market that offers a reasonable return.



Its the recent retirees who got dealt the awful hand. I know people who retired last year, and are now looking at an irreversible change in their lives.
 
[quote author="CapitalismWorks" date=1227249332]Are you kidding?!? The hand we have been dealt is fine. We have many many working years ahead of us, during which we will be able to invest are hard-earned dollars in a market that offers a reasonable return.



Its the recent retirees who got dealt the awful hand. I know people who retired last year, and are now looking at an irreversible change in their lives.</blockquote>


I disagree. Recent retirees should be fine...that is if they invested properly. Invested in fixed income funds and some bonds, but mainly all cash. As a matter of fact with deflation going on, perhaps cash will benefit them.



But, if recent retires are down 30%...its their own fault. Its all about risk and reward...they took the risk, now its time to pay-up.

My parents are close to retirement, their money is in bonds, fixed income funds, cash and stocks. Since I managed it for them, their stocks are backed with puts. So they lost nothing. Its about capital preservation when you need it, not party like its a casino and hope that you flip 21.
 
[quote author="blackvault_cm" date=1227249276]<blockquote>I was wrong, very wrong. The part of me that believes in a God prays for everyone, and hopes that in our struggles to maintain a nice life for our families in the coming years, the frustration at being dealt such a rotten hand by the preceding generations doesn't limit our ability to enjoy what material success we're lucky enough to experience.</blockquote>


God gave us everything we wanted. 100x more than other nations. Yet we still bitched and moaned. We still complained how we don't have this and that. Don't you think God is more worried about the dying kids in Africa? vs. whether or not we will have a regular stake tonight or a filet mignon? I wouldn't be suprised if God looked at America and gave it the middle finger and left...</blockquote>


BV, I am seriously proud of you...I couldn't agree more.! Let the spirit of the PK shine. I am sure your father would be proud too.
 
[quote author="GeorgeO" date=1227254012]Talk to me when unemployment is at 25%. That will be a depression.</blockquote>


I define a depression based on how I feel. I happen to feel pretty damn good. ;)
 
[quote author="GeorgeO" date=1227254012]Talk to me when unemployment is at 25%. That will be a depression.</blockquote>


It would be interesting to see what unemployment really is in the country. The government stopped counting discouraged workers to make the numbers look better years ago. I know in the real estate development industry, unemployment is running about 50% and getting worse.
 
"I disagree. Recent retirees should be fine...that is if they invested properly. Invested in fixed income funds and some bonds, but mainly all cash. As a matter of fact with deflation going on, perhaps cash will benefit them."





What are/were fixed income funds & bonds paying the last 5 years? I personally don't know, but I'll bet it wasn't keeping up with inflation. If you were a retired person on fixed income and then you see your food and energy bills nearly double in the past couple of years, you would start to question whether a 2% fund is sufficient.



The economy has tossed an ugly curve ball in that inflation was out of control (everybody knew this, but the government certainly was coy about it), but now deflation is kicking in. I wonder how I would have handled this situation if I was a 70 year old right now. I doubt I would be too happy.



Why must the average joe have to stay on top of Wall Street's latest chenanigans to protect his hard-earned savings in the market? Sad.



And to President Bush - "You did a heck of a job Brownie!"
 
<a href="http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/well-great-depression-2-2011/story.aspx?guid={B28B49B5-EFD1-4941-B57E-A2BA1545BA09}&dist=TNMostRead">30 reasons for a depression</a>
 
[quote author="awgee" date=1227270166]<a href="http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/well-great-depression-2-2011/story.aspx?guid={B28B49B5-EFD1-4941-B57E-A2BA1545BA09}&dist=TNMostRead">30 reasons for a depression</a></blockquote>


"STORY NOT FOUND"
 
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/well-great-depression-2-2011/story.aspx?guid={B28B49B5-EFD1-4941-B57E-A2BA1545BA09}&dist=TNMostRead



It doesn't work if you link it. Try copying and pasting.
 
PAUL B. FARRELL

30 reasons for Great Depression 2 by 2011

New-New Deal, bailouts, trillions in debt, antitax mindset spell disaster

By Paul B. Farrell, MarketWatch

Last update: 11:53 a.m. EST Nov. 19, 2008

Comments: 1617

ARROYO GRANDE, Calif. (MarketWatch) -- By 2011? No recovery? No new bull? "Hey Paul, why do you keep talking about a bigger crash coming by 2011?" Readers ask that often. So here's a sequel to my predictions of 2000 and 2004, with a look three years ahead:

First. Dot-com crash

We pinpointed the dot-com crash at its peak, in a March 20, 2000 column: "Next crash? Sorry, you won't see it coming." Bulls-eye: The dot-com bubble popped. The economy went into a 30-month recession. The stock market lost $8 trillion.

And today, over eight years later, the market is still roughly 40% below its 2000 peak.

Video: Discussing the Great Depression

Dorothy Womble and William Hague survived the Great Depression. They share their stories of living during that time as children. (Nov. 14)

Factor in inflation and the average stock has lost well over 50% of its value. Stocks have proven to be a very big loser, a bad investment for Americans, thanks to Wall Street's selfish greed, plus the complicity and naivet? of politicians, press and public.

Second. Subprime meltdown

We reported on warnings of another crash coming as early as 2004, wrote a sequel, also titled "Next crash? Sorry, you won't see it coming." Yes, we were early, but in good company. We wrote many more warning columns. Few listened.

Subsequent events, notably former Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan's admission of his failures in congressional testimony, prove that if he and other Reaganomic ideologues weren't so myopic and intransigent about proving their free-market deregulation theories, they could have acted earlier and prevented today's colossal mess. Instead, their ideology kept the bubble blowing, delayed the pop, making matters worse.

So once again, as history proves over and over, ideology trumps common sense, reality and the facts. Greed drives ideologues to blow bubbles. They pop. Crashes happen. The public is collateral damage.

Third. Megabubble cycles

We also detailed the broader, accelerating macroeconomic sweep of cycles last summer in columns like "20 reasons new megabubble pops in 2011." We summarized a long list of major warnings from financial periodicals -- Forbes, Fortune, the Wall Street Journal, Economist -- and from the voices of Warren Buffett, Bill Gross, a sitting Fed governor and a former Commerce secretary. Multiple warnings "hiding in plain sight," beginning with a Fed governor warning Greenspan in 2000 about subprime risk.

But the big shocker came from the new Treasury secretary two years before the meltdown: Bloomberg News reports that shortly after leaving Wall Street as Goldman Sachs' CEO, Henry Paulson was at Camp David warning the president and his staff of "over-the-counter derivatives as an example of financial innovation that could, under certain circumstances, blow up in Wall Street's face and affect the whole economy."

Yes, they knew. And still both Paulson, a Wall Street insider, and Greenspan's successor, Ben Bernanke, a Princeton scholar of the Great Depression, stayed trapped in denial and kept happy-talking the public for months after the meltdown began in mid-2007. Get it? While they could have put the brakes on this meltdown years ago, our leaders were prisoners of their distorted, inflexible views of conservative Reaganomics ideology.

As a result, once again the "best and the brightest" failed America and now they and their buddies in Washington and Corporate America are setting up the Crash of 2011.

Now it's time for my 2008 update, a look into the future where things will get far worse during the next presidential term. And given human behavior, especially in the deep recesses of Wall Street's "greed is good" DNA, it seems inevitable that no matter how well-intentioned the new president may be Wall Street and Washington's 41,000 special-interest lobbyists will drive America into the Great Depression 2.

30 'leading edge' indicators of the coming Great Depression 2

Every day there is more breaking news, proof Wall Street's greed is already back to "business as usual" and in denial, grabbing more and more from the new "Bailouts-R-Us" bonanza of free taxpayer cash and credits, like two-year-olds in a toy store at Christmas -- anything to boost earnings, profits and stock prices, and keep those bonuses and salaries flowing, anything to blow a new bubble.

Scan these 30 "leading indicators." Each problem has one or more possible solutions, but lacks unified political support. Time's running out. We're already at the edge. Add up the trillions in debt: Any collective solution will only compound our problems, because the cumulative debt will overwhelm us, make matters worse:



1.

America's credit rating may soon be downgraded below AAA

2.

Fed refusal to disclose $2 trillion loans, now the new "shadow banking system"

3.

Congress has no oversight of $700 billion, and Paulson's Wall Street Trojan Horse

4.

King Henry Paulson flip-flops on plan to buy toxic bank assets, confusing markets

5.

Goldman, Morgan lost tens of billions, but planning over $13 billion in bonuses this year

6.

AIG bails big banks out of $150 billion in credit swaps, protects shareholders before taxpayers

7.

American Express joins Goldman, Morgan as bank holding firms, looking for Fed money

8.

Treasury sneaks corporate tax credits into bailout giveaway, shifts costs to states

9.

State revenues down, taxes and debt up; hiring, spending, borrowing add even more debt

10.

State, municipal, corporate pensions lost hundreds of billions on derivative swaps

11.

Hedge funds: 610 in 1990, almost 10,000 now. Returns down 15%, liquidations up

12.

Consumer debt way up, now at $2.5 trillion; next area for credit meltdowns

13.

Fed also plans to provide billions to $3.6 trillion money-market fund industry

14.

Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae are bleeding cash, want to tap taxpayer dollars

15.

Washington manipulating data: War not $600 billion but estimates actually $3 trillion

16.

Hidden costs of $700 billion bailout are likely $5 trillion; plus $1 trillion Street write-offs

17.

Commodities down, resource exporters and currencies dropping, triggering a global meltdown

18.

Big three automakers near bankruptcy; unions, workers, retirees will suffer

19.

Corporate bond market, both junk and top-rated, slumps more than 25%

20.

Retailers bankrupt: Circuit City, Sharper Image, Mervyns; mall sales in free fall

21.

Unemployment heading toward 8% plus; more 1930's photos of soup lines

22.

Government policy is dictated by 42,000 myopic, highly paid, greedy lobbyists

23.

China's sees GDP growth drop, crates $586 billion stimulus; deflation is now global, hitting even Dubai

24.

Despite global recession, U.S. trade deficit continues, now at $650 billion

25.

The 800-pound gorillas: Social Security, Medicare with $60 trillion in unfunded liabilities

26.

Now 46 million uninsured as medical, drug costs explode

27.

New-New Deal: U.S. planning billions for infrastructure, adding to unsustainable debt

28.

Outgoing leaders handicapping new administration with huge liabilities

29.

The "antitaxes" message is a new bubble, a new version of the American dream offering a free lunch, no sacrifices, exposing us to more false promises



Will the next meltdown, the third of the 21st Century, trigger a second Great Depression? Or will the 2007-08 crisis simply morph into a painful extension of today's mess to 2011 and beyond, with no new bull market, no economic recovery as our new president hopes?

Perhaps some of the first 29 problems may be solved separately, but collectively, after building on a failed ideology, they spell disaster. So listen closely to "leading indicator" No. 30:

At a recent Reuters Global Finance Summit former Goldman Sachs chairman John Whitehead was interviewed. He was also Ronald Reagan's Deputy Secretary of State and a former chairman of the N.Y. Fed. He says America's problems will take years and will burn trillions.

He sees "nothing but large increases in the deficit ... I think it would be worse than the depression. ... Before I go to sleep at night, I wonder if tomorrow is the day Moody's and S&P will announce a downgrade of U.S. government bonds." It'll get worse because "the public is not prepared to increase taxes. Both parties were for reducing taxes, reducing income to government, and both parties favored a number of new programs, all very costly and all done by the government."

Reuters concludes: "Whitehead said he is speaking out on this topic because he is concerned no lawmakers are against these new spending programs and none will stand up and call for higher taxes. 'I just want to get people thinking about this, and to realize this is a road to disaster,' said Whitehead. 'I've always been a positive person and optimistic, but I don't see a solution here.'"

We see the Great Depression 2. Why? Wall Street's self-interested greed. They are their own worst enemy ... and America's too. End of Story
 
[quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1227264943][quote author="GeorgeO" date=1227254012]Talk to me when unemployment is at 25%. That will be a depression.</blockquote>


It would be interesting to see what unemployment really is in the country. The government stopped counting discouraged workers to make the numbers look better years ago. I know in the real estate development industry, unemployment is running about 50% and <strong>getting worse</strong>.</blockquote>


When a 75% staff reduction is not enough, then what do you? You layoff some more, you know... a homebuilder doesn't really need to have loan officers or loan processors, and they can centralize into their corporate office in a whole other state. You see, they think that they will still get the same amount of loans, but not have to pay a human being to be there.



So yeah, just got word that the builder I worked for is cutting more people. These are good people too, and they are the ones who have survived several rounds of layoffs. These are people they needed and wanted to keep. Unreal. Where will they find jobs? Isn't everyone cutting back? I mean, the "you want fries with that?" joke isn't that funny anymore, it is hard to even find a job like that.
 
"Outgoing leaders handicapping new administration with huge liabilities"



Seemd like there was quite a fuss being made on how Bush was so cordial to Obama when he visited the White House last week. This was directly opposite the way Clinton left the White House. Recall that Clinton's staff stripped keyboards and other juvenile things when they left. It made me chuckle because, sure, Bush was cordial, but look what HE's leaving behind!
 
[quote author="IrvineRenter" date=1227264943][

It would be interesting to see what unemployment really is in the country. </blockquote>


There was a nice recent article (Harpers or Atlantic, I forget) about what a purely political piece of fantasy both the CPI and unemployment #s are. In terms of employment, the total job # (which is probably hurtling from 160 mil to 150 mil as we speak) is infinitely more honest than what passes for 'unemployment' at this point.



One thing that has occurred to me more than once was the condescending attitude many american commentators would make in the context of european unemployment ten years ago ("there's socialism in action", etc) when places like germany and spain had stubbornly high #s in the teens. Now its becoming obvious that our real #s are just as bad as those were at their worst - we just lie and undercount.
 
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/08/business/08jobs.html">Peter Goodman over at the NY Times</a> had a great piece on the real employment numbers, and it was so great that <a href="http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/a-closer-look-at-employment-data/">Barry stole all the chartpr0n from it.</a> Barry has also had some great chartpr0n himself, and don't even get him started on <a href="http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/discussing-unemployment-rate-and-job-loss-on-npr/">the lame a$$ birth/death model from the BLS</a>.



http://bigpicture.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/09/06/alt_measures.gif
 
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